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View Full Version : OC Register two 2nd Ammendment commentaries


tankerman
03-18-2007, 09:02 AM
One newspaper in Socal provides decent commentary on the Second Ammendent.
Here is one of the Editorials
Viewed narrowly, the decision March 9 by a federal appeals court to overturn the 1976 District of Columbia law barring the ownership of handguns with just a few exceptions, such as for law enforcement officers in the course of duty, applies only to the District of Columbia and therefore has no implication for gun laws in other states. In the context of the broader ongoing debate over the meaning of the Second Amendment, however, this is an extremely significant case that will become even more significant if it is appealed to the Supreme Court. We hope it is.
The Second Amendment reads: "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." For most of our history this was interpreted as protecting an individual right – and, moreover, an individual right that existed prior to the adoption of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, which those documents merely acknowledged and protected.
Gun control supporters, however, have argued for several decades that the dependent clause in the amendment, about a well-regulated militia, meant that the right to bear arms (the term "keep" is seldom discussed) applied only to those enrolled in an organized state militia, meaning the right to bear arms is a collective, rather than an individual, right. Indeed, the D.C. government in this case argued that since the district does not have an organized militia, that the Second Amendment is functionally inoperative.
The majority of the three-judge appellate panel in this case, led by Senior Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman, argued that this interpretation flies in the face of the understanding of rights held by the founders and the first Congress, of a clear understanding of the meaning of the amendment's wording, and of settled interpretation of other parts of the Bill of Rights. The case was brought on behalf of six Washington, D.C., citizens who desired to possess handguns for personal protection; the case was financed by Cato Institute scholar Robert Levy.
When the First Amendment, for example, protects the right of "the people" peaceably to assemble, it clearly protects an individual right, as does the Fourth Amendment's reference to the right of the "people" to be secure in their persons and property. And so on.
This decision is clearly correct, as even liberal scholars like Harvard's Lawrence Tribe and Alan Dershowitz reluctantly have conceded.
The Washington, D.C., government will no doubt request that the entire D.C. Circuit rehear the case with all its judges taking part, hoping for a different outcome. We hope the case gets to the Supreme Court so that this important right is nationally recognized as an individual rather than a collective right.


Please take the time to thank the Register for the unbiased coverage of this issue.

Here is a link to the other piece which ends by with mention of Gun owners political weight

www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/nationalcolumns/article_1622054.php (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/nationalcolumns/article_1622054.php)

chris
03-18-2007, 01:03 PM
read both articles. i liked them. i would hope that finally the 2nd Amendmant is understood the way it was meant to be.

SemiAutoSam
03-18-2007, 01:18 PM
since the link in your post wasn't working I took the liberty to fix it.

I checked this link and at the moment it works.

www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/nationalcolumns/article_1622054.php

tankerman
03-18-2007, 03:16 PM
Well the Register seems to be fairly independent when it comes to Republican/Democratic political garbage. Though I think they may identify as Libertarian, obviously minus the Ralph Nader garbage.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-18-2007, 03:58 PM
Well the Register seems to be fairly independent when it comes to Republican/Democratic political garbage. Though I think they may identify as Libertarian, obviously minus the Ralph Nader garbage.

Wait. Are you implying that Ralph Nader is a Libertarian!?!?!?

Or are you saying that the OC Register is mostly Libertarian but they also support Ralph Nader?

wutzu
03-18-2007, 06:15 PM
I was kind of pissed today when I finally sat down and read The Economist. They had a blurb about Parker v. DC and referred to it as "a step back". That's what you get with an english magazine, i guess.

tankerman
03-18-2007, 07:35 PM
Wait. Are you implying that Ralph Nader is a Libertarian!?!?!?

Or are you saying that the OC Register is mostly Libertarian but they also support Ralph Nader?

Excuse me, It was early and I had not had my coffee yet, Ralphie is Green Party I believe

hoffmang
03-18-2007, 09:07 PM
I was kind of pissed today when I finally sat down and read The Economist. They had a blurb about Parker v. DC and referred to it as "a step back". That's what you get with an english magazine, i guess.

Kind of like that step back in 1776, huh.

-Gene

Rem1492
03-18-2007, 10:02 PM
Kind of like that step back in 1776, huh.

-Gene

Brits not liking yanks with guns? Yeah, you're right! No wonder they are pissed. :)
I bet they're still mad over that Mel Gibson movie too.

Yankee Clipper
03-18-2007, 11:56 PM
Not all the Register’s editorials are as enlightened as these two are. But they do suggest that, on appeal, it will probably be argued that if the 2nd amendment is not about individual rights then neither is first or the fourth amendments. And that may be why the Supreme Court has sidestepped the issue a couple of times. The DC ruling may not be appealed further to avoid a ruling in our favor. Or it may be appealed one more step to the full circuit and then dropped. The anti-gunners may now feel like the sky is falling or, at minimum, getting quite dark.

hoffmang
03-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Those on the other side face a dangerous catch-22.

If they do not appeal it, then any US Citizen can challenge any Federal gun law in the District as it is the seat of the Federal Government and the current jurisprudence is that the 2A is an individual right. That totally ignores that the DC handgun ban will also be fully moot if they do not appeal.

If they do appeal, they are very likely to loose the en-banc appeal and have a pretty high likelihood of loosing in the Supreme Court who look ready to take this case.

The only good news for the other side is that this case only implicates Federal law and does not necessarily apply to state laws.

-Gene

luvtolean
03-19-2007, 08:47 AM
My GF is in ConLaw right now, and she is deep into the Due Process Clause, and this case is a very interesting situation.

I wonder if the reason you'll hear anti-gunners argue the second is not an "individual right", instead of arguing the textually correct "fundamental right", is they don't want to even utter something so heinous.

I strongly recommend we all start using the "Fundamental Right" terminology in our discussions people.

If the Second is a "fundamental right", like the first, it requires "strict scrutiny" be applied to all laws restricting the fundamental right. Most of the Bill of Rights are considered to be "fundamental rights" and thus are incorporated into the fourteenth amendment. Specifically, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th. So, the strength of these other amendments comes not from being an "individual right", but more legally correct, a "fundamental right".

From Constitutional Law- Individual Rights, by Ides and May there are several interesting references.

The Court has also held that neither the Second Amendment right ot bear arms, nor the Seventh Amendment right to a jury trial in civil cases is incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment. Presser v Illinois (1886)

But later, more heartening information.

If a fundamental liberty interest is infringed, the Court applies strict scrutiny, in which case a law will usually be struck down unless it is shown to be the least burdensome means of achieving a compelling governmental interest.

I really like the use of the word "infringe" in there, don't you? ;)

But wait, there's more. There is a landmark "footnote" from United States v Carolene Products Co.. This is called "footnote four".

But in dicta contained in footnote four, Justice Stone's opinion for the Court suggested that the rational basis standard should govern other unenumerated liberty interests as well. Stone wrote that more rigorous judicial scrutiny is called for on in three ecceptional situations: (1) if "legislation appears on its face to be within a specific prohibition of the Contitution, such as those of the first ten amendments"; (2) if legislation "restricts those political processes which can ordinarily be expected to bring about repeal of undesirable legislation," such as impairments on the right to vote; and (3) if legislation is aimed at "discrete and insular minorities" who, because of prejudice against them, are unable to protect themselves through ordinary political processes. The first of these exceptions involves the Due Process Clause....For these purposes, if a Bill of Rights provision has been incorporated into the Fourteenth Amendment so that it applies against the states, it will be deemed to be "equally specific" as to the states even though the text of the Fourteenth Amendment does not mention it.

It seems to me that for Parker to be really meaningful to us, the Court needs to disagree with the dissenting opinion of the appeals court that the Constution does not apply equally to DC. (as if it becomes DC specific, and treated differently than a state, we get little)

Here is the basic model for due process cases.


1. Is the interest in question one that qualifies as a protected liberty under the Due Process Clause?
2. Is the protected liberty one that is deemed to be fundamental?
3. Does the challenged law interfere with the fundamental liberty in a serious enough way to impinge on or unduly burden that liberty, thereby triggering strict scrutiny?
4. If a fundamental liberty has been impinged on or unduly burdened, does the law substantially further a compelling government interest?
5. Has the government chosen the least burdensome means of achieving its compelling interest?

FYI, and probably unsurprisingly after reading that, most laws cannot survive strict scrutiny as applied to a fundamental liberty.

If the decision declares it a fundamental right, which the opinion of the appeals court had the exact ring of, this gets very interesting.

With the current non-incorporation decision in Presser, how could the Court rule in favor of Parker et al, but not contradict this previous decision?

If they did rule in favor, and did indicate it was a fundamental right...wow.

We really wouldn't need another case incorporating it into the Fourteenth Amendment, this could be it.

Aluisious
03-19-2007, 09:25 AM
Well the Register seems to be fairly independent when it comes to Republican/Democratic political garbage. Though I think they may identify as Libertarian, obviously minus the Ralph Nader garbage.

:rolleyes: