What is a Private Party Transfer?

[Toolbox X]

The Roster of Certified Handguns makes it illegal for a CA Dealer to sell me a handgun that isn't on the list.

Unless it is a Private Party Transfer.

Example:
Bob lives in Iowa and owns a Desert Eagle .50. Bob moves to CA and registers his DE50 in CA.
Now Bob can sell me his DE50, through an FFL, even though the DE50 isn't on the Roster of Certified Handguns. This is legal because it is a Private Party Transfer.

My question is: Does Bob have to move here in order to sell me the DE50? Can he drive here with his DE50 to visit, then sell the DE50 to me through a CA FFL as a Private Party Transfer, even though he isn't a CA resident?

I've looked through a lot of DOJ info but I can't find a definition for Private Party Transfer. To me it looks like Private Party Transfer simply means the person selling the firearm doesn't have their FFL. By this rationale, could Bob sell me the 50DE from Iowa and just mail it to an FFL in CA, and wouldn't that be a Private Party Transfer?

-Grant

PS. I don't want a DE50, I just picked it for the examples.

[bwiese]

The Roster of Certified Handguns makes it illegal for a CA Dealer to sell me a handgun that isn't on the list.

Unless it is a Private Party Transfer.

Example:
Bob lives in Iowa and owns a Desert Eagle .50. Bob moves to CA and registers his DE50 in CA.
Now Bob can sell me his DE50, through an FFL, even though the DE50 isn't on the Roster of Certified Handguns. This is legal because it is a Private Party Transfer.

My question is: Does Bob have to move here in order to sell me the DE50? Can he drive here with his DE50 to visit, then sell the DE50 to me through a CA FFL as a Private Party Transfer, even though he isn't a CA resident?

I've looked through a lot of DOJ info but I can't find a definition for Private Party Transfer. To me it looks like Private Party Transfer simply means the person selling the firearm doesn't have their FFL. By this rationale, could Bob sell me the 50DE from Iowa and just mail it to an FFL in CA, and wouldn't that be a Private Party Transfer?
PS. I don't want a DE50, I just picked it for the examples.


No, Bob can't just drive here and sell it.

Bob would need Ca ID (and apparently thus residency) - and would have to also file a new handgun ownership report within the allowed period (60 days) of moving here. I'm not sure the paperwork would work fast enough thru the system that the deal would not be voided if Bob From IA had just moved here and gotten his DL asap, etc. - and the dealer would have to call DOJ DROS administrators for override.

For now, this appears to be the only way out-of-CA unmodified, unapproved handguns can enter, as well as get into a Californian's hands.

It appears however, that many guns can exploit 12133PC single-action/single shot exemptions so an unapproved S&W wheelgun could perhaps be shipped in if converted to single action if DA sear removed (it can be replaced after purchase/acquisition); an unappproved 1911 could be shipped in as a single shot 22 or Springfield SASS system. Both these exemptions require the guns in question to be certain min. physical sizes & barrel lengths. I am looking more deeply into this.

[DrjonesUSA]

No, Bob can't just drive here and sell it.

Bob would need Ca ID (and apparently thus residency) - and would have to also file a new handgun ownership report within the allowed period (60 days) of moving here. I'm not sure the paperwork would work fast enough thru the system that the deal would not be voided if Bob From IA had just moved here and gotten his DL asap, etc. - and the dealer would have to call DOJ DROS administrators for override.

For now, this appears to be the only way out-of-CA unmodified, unapproved handguns can enter, as well as get into a Californian's hands.

It appears however, that many guns can exploit 12133PC single-action/single shot exemptions so an unapproved S&W wheelgun could perhaps be shipped in if converted to single action if DA sear removed (it can be replaced after purchase/acquisition); an unappproved 1911 could be shipped in as a single shot 22 or Springfield SASS system. Both these exemptions require the guns in question to be certain min. physical sizes & barrel lengths. I am looking more deeply into this.


Really?

Wow.

I would be very interested to know what you find.

Are you going to post your results here, or do you need to keep it more low-key?

If so, I'd greatly appreciate an email or PM with your findings!!

[bwiese]

Really?

Wow.

I would be very interested to know what you find.

Are you going to post your results here, or do you need to keep it more low-key?

If so, I'd greatly appreciate an email or PM with your findings!!

I've been discussing this a bit, even on NY day.

It appears to be kosher; a bit more digging and y'all will get a "Bill's Thumbs Up", for whatever that's worth, when time is right.

WOW, this is my 6000th post. Time flies when you're having fun!

[TheMan]

Bob would need Ca ID (and apparently thus residency) - and would have to also file a new handgun ownership report within the allowed period (60 days) of moving here.

I am 90% sure that the new resident has the option of selling it within that 60 days, and if they do that, they don't have to file the handgun ownership report. The handgun is registered to the new owner in the PPT process. This is mentioned in the PC, I just don't have access to it at work

[bwiese]

I am 90% sure that the new resident has the option of selling it within that 60 days, and if they do that, they don't have to file the handgun ownership report. The handgun is registered to the new owner in the PPT process. This is mentioned in the PC, I just don't have access to it at work

Yes, that is an interesting boundary condition I haven't delved into deeply.

But it appears that he needs CA ID so he has to be kinda-sorta 'moved' here before he can sell. It appears unlikely that someone who has moved or 'moved' to CA can instantly PPT a gun w/o CA residency/ID.

[shin_en]

Any news on if this is true? I also have a question. My sister is planning to move back to CA in a couple months. I want to purchase one of her firearms, but it's threaded. Could I just unthread the barrel before the transfer? I spoke to an FFL dealer today and they said that I couldn't because the gun's serial number would show that the firearm has a threaded barrel, regardless of what I did to it.

This brings me to another question if the FFL is wrong: what would happen if I were to DROS the firearm. Would the DOJ call the FFL about the firearm to be sure that there is no threaded barrel?

[tenpercentfirearms]

No one cares about serial numbers on handguns. Think about it. Every AR is serialized and is supposed to have evil features with detachable magazines. However, unless you actually have these evil features on the firearms, you are not guilty of a crime. So if you have a handgun that might have originally been threaded, but isn't now, then it isn't an assault weapon.

It kind of cracks me up how far some people think the DOJ or BATF supposedly goes to bust people. They are so busy, they don't have time to look up serial numbers, go to the manufacturer, and check to see if you made an assault weapon legal and now have it in a legal configuration.

Of course if I am wrong about this, I would love to know about it. I don't think I am.

[bwiese]

I also have a question. My sister is planning to move back to CA in a couple months. I want to purchase one of her firearms, but it's threaded. Could I just unthread the barrel before the transfer?

A semiauto pistol cannot have a threaded barrel - attached.

She could have the barrel turned down or a replacement barrel added or just transfer the frame to you via FFL after moving here.

I just found out a recent (2006) case in LA area where a guy bought a FAL clone in AZ (illegally) and brought it back to CA. He gets popped for CA AW charges (but no import or Fed charges) because - even though the bolt carrier was removed - the judge said it was just a nonoperational AW. [This is much different than an otherwise AW that has been converted to a lawful compliant format - either rimfire, manually-cycled, fixed-10rd-mag, or legal gripless.]

This is why I've harped on 'path to legality' before.


I spoke to an FFL dealer today and they said that I couldn't because the gun's serial number would show that the firearm has a threaded barrel, regardless of what I did to it.

The S/N won't, Wes is right, they won't check at that level. But I do suspect a Walther P22 (non-CA) or perhaps an HK Mk23 or USP Tactical may trigger red lights.


This brings me to another question if the FFL is wrong: what would happen if I were to DROS the firearm. Would the DOJ call the FFL about the firearm to be sure that there is no threaded barrel?

As above, the two problem guns I wrote about *may* have some 'red lights'. If some flavors of a gun occasionally were equipped with threaded bbls, there's no way DOJ would know.

[shin_en]

Yes, the handgun I want to buy from her is a Mark 23.

[bwiese]

Yes, the handgun I want to buy from her is a Mark 23.

I would recommend that it be fitted with a replacement unthreaded bbl or the bbl threads are removed.

[tenpercentfirearms]

This brings me to another question if the FFL is wrong: what would happen if I were to DROS the firearm. Would the DOJ call the FFL about the firearm to be sure that there is no threaded barrel?
My guess is the DOJ doesn't care about half of the DROS data. What handgun it is and whether it is an assault weapon or not, they are not going to screen DROS data to find out. Could you imagine someone having to go through every DROS transaction every day to try and figure out what someone "might" be doing wrong? I am pretty sure most of the system is automated so they check for the one handgun every 30 days, expired DL, and back ground by automation and only when something comes up on those do they do something.

I have spelled names wrong, guys use all sorts of addresses, and I have DROSed the wrong handguns. The only thing that I have ever had rejected is one expired DL and now quite a few prohibited persons. I didn't have any for like a whole year and suddenly they are coming out of the wood work.

[TheMan]

Any news on if this is true? I also have a question. My sister is planning to move back to CA in a couple months. I want to purchase one of her firearms, but it's threaded. Could I just unthread the barrel before the transfer? I spoke to an FFL dealer today and they said that I couldn't because the gun's serial number would show that the firearm has a threaded barrel, regardless of what I did to it.

This brings me to another question if the FFL is wrong: what would happen if I were to DROS the firearm. Would the DOJ call the FFL about the firearm to be sure that there is no threaded barrel?

There should be no problem with regards to the serial number. Since it is a Mk 23, I'd see if someone makes a replacement barrel for it, instead of modifying the existing barrel. Get the unthreaded barrel put on before you come in, no one should care.

One thing you may need to consider, is how long has your sister been out of state? I have heard before that even if you are gone long enough to become a resident in another state, CA may not consider you a non resident. She could legally buy guns in the other state as a resident of that state, but if she was still considered a resident of CA, she isn't supposed to bring them in.

[shin_en]

She has been gone since November '06 and will not return until July/August '07

[TheMan]

SInce it is such a short time, I would definitely research that a little more. If she was always planning on returning, CA may still consider her to be a resident.

[shin_en]

She moved to Nevada in Nov for a teaching job. Wasn't sure if she was going to stay or not at the time. Now she knows she doesn't want to stay and will return when her lease is up. This is one part that worries me though: She got a Nevada drivers license, but I don't think she registered to vote in NV. She is however registered in CA.

[Quiet]

She moved to Nevada in Nov for a teaching job. Wasn't sure if she was going to stay or not at the time. Now she knows she doesn't want to stay and will return when her lease is up. This is one part that worries me though: She got a Nevada drivers license, but I don't think she registered to vote in NV. She is however registered in CA.

NV DL makes her a resident of NV.

Find a non-threaded replacement barrel for the HK Mark 23.

[Hunter]

Yes, the handgun I want to buy from her is a Mark 23.

First off, in order for your sister to bring the gun in, she will have to disassemble the gun to remove the barrel. Once she is a resident again (still should be, since she votes here, and has lived in CA for more than 6 months in the last 12 months), you and her can just dros the frame/receiver via PPT. The slide/barrel/parts ect doesn't have to be part of the dealer transfer and you can take that directly. Also new M23 barrels have been popping up recently for the $250-$300 range (I've noticed 3 different ads in the last 3 weeks). If I was you, I would snag one of those barrels to remove the threads from. Then save the original s/n barrel for collector value with the gun. Just don't assemble it.

[striker3]

Yes, that is an interesting boundary condition I haven't delved into deeply.

But it appears that he needs CA ID so he has to be kinda-sorta 'moved' here before he can sell. It appears unlikely that someone who has moved or 'moved' to CA can instantly PPT a gun w/o CA residency/ID.

There is someone who can fall into the residency requirements quickly, active duty military stationed here. I have twice sold firearms by PPT that I brought over from my home state. Both weapons I sold before the 60 day reporting period was over and there was never any questions about why they were not registered in California. In both instances all I had to do was show a copy of my ID and original orders.