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aileron
03-16-2007, 06:29 AM
Man this guy is nutty. Spewing FUD.

http://www.hnn.us/articles/36531.html



3-19-07
The Right to Bear Bazookas: A New Take on the Second Amendment
By Saul Cornell

Mr. Cornell is a professor of history at Ohio State University and author of A Well Regulated Militia: The Founding Fathers and the Origins of Gun Control in America (Oxford, 2006).

The Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia has decided to strike down a gun control law as a violation of the Second Amendment. The decision, known as Parker, casts aside more than 70 years of established jurisprudence. The Appeals Court’s revisionist reading of U.S. v. Miller, (1939) the controlling Supreme Court precedent, is highly problematic. According to the majority opinion in Parker, Miller was only concerned with the type of weapons protected by the Second Amendment. If the decision is not reversed it ought to mean plenty of new business for the manufactures of flame throwers, bazookas, and Stinger missiles who are certain to welcome the DC Court’s lunatic logic.

The Miller case has never been understood to protect weapons solely based on their military function. Miller applied a two-prong test to determine the relevance of the Second Amendment to gun laws. A weapon had to be both of a type typically associated with the militia and used in some activity reasonably connected with a well-regulated militia. The Miller court correctly realized that an exclusive focus on the type of weapon could lead to the absurd result implicit in the current Appeals Court’s ruling. Indeed, the federal courts moved quickly to reject this potentially perverse result in Cases V. United States (1942). If Miller’s rule only applied to the type of weapon and protected all militia-style weapons then “Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons . . . of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns.... It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result.” Needless to say the Supreme Court denied an appeal in this case, thereby demonstrating their belief that Miller was not simply a case about the type of weapons protected by the Second Amendment.

In contrast to the Parker decision, the Supreme Court in Miller wrote that the Second Amendment was crafted to “assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces [as the militia]” and “it must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.” While it is true that the opinion discussed the expansive nature of the Founding era’s militia, it did not adopt the modern gun rights view that the unorganized militia is the same as the well-regulated militia protected by the Second Amendment. The universal militia esteemed by many of the Founders, and the more elite select militias favored by others in the Founding era, were both well-regulated, ie., controlled by law. The modern unorganized militia is by definition not well regulated.

Reactions to Miller among legal scholars at the time it was decided support the orthodox reading of the case. A contemporary report of the decision in the California Law Review at the time was typical. It noted that the Court “held that the right refers to the people as a collective body.” Thus, in U.S. v. Tot, (1942) another federal court held that “it is abundantly clear both from the discussions of this amendment contemporaneous with its proposal and adoption . . . that this amendment, unlike those providing for protection of free speech and freedom of religion, was not adopted with individual rights in mind, but as a protection for the States in the maintenance of their militia organizations against possible encroachments by the federal power.” Tot’s collective rights reading of Miller soon became the standard interpretation of the meaning of the Second Amendment by the federal courts for the next seventy years.

Rather than apply the orthodox interpretation of Miller, the Parker court turned to a more recent case, U.S. v. Emerson. This controversial case was the first to assert that the Second Amendment was about the civilian use of firearms. Following the Emerson Court, the Parker Court relied more heavily on what was not said in the Miller decision, than what was said. “On the question whether the Second Amendment protects an individual or collective right, the Court’s opinion in Miller is most notable for what it omits.” Essentially, the Court in Parker decided to fill in the blanks with its own ideological preferences. This makes for bad law and even worse history. One might just as easily claim the Miller court did not use the collective rights language because it was so pervasive at the time that there was no need to belabor such an obvious point.

There is no need to listen to the sounds of silence to interpret Miller. The regulation of civilian weapons was, and always has been something to be regulated by the state subject to common law restrictions and the scope of the state’s broad, but not unlimited police powers. If the DC gun law is a bad policy it ought to be repealed, not struck down by activist conservative judges.

edwardm
03-16-2007, 06:48 AM
...quasi-collective rights theorist.

He's the guy who trumpets the quasi-collective rights theory that the Parker majority opinion talked about (and quickly dismissed as so much nonsense).

I think Silberman was taking a direct swipe at Cornell in that opinion, and rightfully so.

Man this guy is nutty. Spewing FUD.

http://www.hnn.us/articles/36531.html

Wulf
03-16-2007, 06:52 AM
...excellent example of why tenure is bad and how even an idiot can write and publish a book.

triggerhappy
03-16-2007, 07:12 AM
Yes, we need the state to tell us whether or not we should be able to defend ourselves. It works so well in the UK. I suggest that the above "scholar" head over there to enjoy all the benefits of a disarmed populace.

mow
03-16-2007, 07:54 AM
Stinger Missles :eek:

cool :cool:

K9paulc
03-16-2007, 08:10 AM
That guy needs to meet the back of my "Pimp Hand".

Paratus et Vigilans
03-16-2007, 09:30 AM
Well, now we know why he's a HISTORY professor and not a LAW professor.

This argument is a common ploy known as an argument ad extremis, taking a proposition to the extreme, to an unreasonable and far-out end, in an attempt to discredit the original proposition. The simple answer to defeat this ploy is that The Framers could not imagine the scope and variety of an infantryman's weaponry that would be developed in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, and when they said ". . .keep and bear arms. . ." they most likely had in mind the arms that soldiers of the time carried, i.e., rifles and pistols. Anything bigger than that was artillery. There was not much if anything inbetween, and artillery was not generally available to an individual then. Governments contracted with foundries to make cannon for their armies and navies. There weren't any "surplus" cannon hanging around for an individual to acquire for his personal collection. However, would The Framers have wanted the citizen soldier to have a cannon if he could afford one, or even find one to buy? That's the more appropriate question.

IMHO the intent of The Framers in drafting and adopting the 2nd Amendment was to ensure that citizen soldiers could be mustered in time of need, and that when mustered they could and would bring their personal weapons with them. The Framers wanted military level firepower to be in the hands of the people as individuals, to be able to repel boarders, as it were, and to keep the government honest. They had just fought and won a war of independence against the most powerful empire the planet had ever known, and much like all of us after 9/11, the foremost thought in their minds was "Never again." If the government of the U.S. ever turned against its people, the people needed to be able to fight back, and win, and start all over again. If an invading power hit our shores, we needed, and The Framers wanted, the citizen soldier to repel the invasion, and to come to the fray armed to do so. They likely would have been overjoyed if a citizen soldier had his own private cannon to bring to the battle.

So, we start with the proposition that The Framers preferred the citizenry to be armed, and trusted them to be responsible keepers of the arms they bore. If you trust a man to keep a rifle and a pistol in his home, why not trust him with a machine gun or artillery piece as well? The 2nd Amendment could have said ". . . keep and bear small arms. . . " but it did not so limit us. Is the nature and type of arms the man bears going to dictate what he does with it? I think not. Having that firepower in their homes, to defend their nation, also enabled them to defend their homes, lives and property. It was a natural and accepted side benefit, and one that was expected and intended at a time when the concept of a full time "police force" was non-existent. There were no standing police forces, per se, at that time, of which I am aware, and if there were, they surely were few and not of much size. There were, however, local sheriffs and federal marshalls who generally had to deputize volunteers when they had a need for manpower to deal with some situation other than a theft or a murder or something of that nature. At that time, it was expected and intended that each person would defend his own home from the bad guys, and that if the need arose a sheriff would raise a posse and come to the rescue. That was the nature of law enforcement in America when The Framers gathered to draft the 2nd Amendment.

What this really comes down to is, do we trust "the people" or do we not? The Framers elected to trust the people. Without getting overly political about this, in today's America, one of the biggest differences between the two major political parties in the U.S. is that one trusts the people to be grownups and decide for themselves how best to live their lives, and is wary of too much government control, while the other trusts government to be in loco parentis over the people, who, without been overseen by the kindly and benevolent government, would not fare very well in the big bad scary world. One sees a firearm as a natural tool and implement to live and protect a life freely lived. The other sees a firearm as a dangerous toy that can't be entrusted to the people. "Ralphie, you'll shoot your eye out."

This was never intended to be a nation where the lowest common denominator was to be the standard. Treating all people as though they are potential criminals if they possess a gun is not only unconstitutional, it is wrong thinking. No firearm is capable of doing harm on its own, and no firearm in the hands of a responsible citizen is going to be used in a murder or other violent crime. A criminal with a firearm is NOT a criminal BECAUSE he possesses a firearm. That is false logic. Take away the firearm, and he is still a criminal. Take away ALL firearms and he is still a criminal. The number of firearms in America, whether per capita or total, is not a factor in the number of criminals in America, or whether that number, or the number of their crimes, is increasing or decreasing. The D.C. handgun ban (R.I.P.) was proof enough of that.

anothergunnut
03-16-2007, 12:01 PM
The author also misses the point of Miller V US. If the second amendment didn't apply to individuals, the Supreme's could have dismissed it out of hand as not applicable. Instead, they acknowledged Miller's right to possess weapons, if they were militia weapons, but they remanded back to the lower court to decide if Miller's weapon was a militia weapon. Unfortunately, Miller got killed so the lower court never had to determine if the weapon in dispute was appropriate for militia use.

jjperl
03-16-2007, 12:46 PM
I love it. The anti's are on the run and it just shows how stupid they are in their logic.

hoffmang
03-16-2007, 04:46 PM
Saul Cornell is bought and paid for by the rabidly anti-gun Joyce Foundation...

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2005/04/carl_bogus_resp.php

-Gene

24_minutes_to_1000
03-16-2007, 04:51 PM
Well, now we know why he's a HISTORY professor and not a LAW professor.

This argument is a common ploy known as an argument ad extremis, taking a proposition to the extreme, to an unreasonable and far-out end, in an attempt to discredit the original proposition. The simple answer to defeat this ploy is that The Framers could not imagine the scope and variety of an infantryman's weaponry that would be developed in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, and when they said ". . .keep and bear arms. . ." they most likely had in mind the arms that soldiers of the time carried, i.e., rifles and pistols. Anything bigger than that was artillery. There was not much if anything inbetween, and artillery was not generally available to an individual then. Governments contracted with foundries to make cannon for their armies and navies. There weren't any "surplus" cannon hanging around for an individual to acquire for his personal collection. However, would The Framers have wanted the citizen soldier to have a cannon if he could afford one, or even find one to buy? That's the more appropriate question.

IMHO the intent of The Framers in drafting and adopting the 2nd Amendment was to ensure that citizen soldiers could be mustered in time of need, and that when mustered they could and would bring their personal weapons with them. The Framers wanted military level firepower to be in the hands of the people as individuals, to be able to repel boarders, as it were, and to keep the government honest. They had just fought and won a war of independence against the most powerful empire the planet had ever known, and much like all of us after 9/11, the foremost thought in their minds was "Never again." If the government of the U.S. ever turned against its people, the people needed to be able to fight back, and win, and start all over again. If an invading power hit our shores, we needed, and The Framers wanted, the citizen soldier to repel the invasion, and to come to the fray armed to do so. They likely would have been overjoyed if a citizen soldier had his own private cannon to bring to the battle.

So, we start with the proposition that The Framers preferred the citizenry to be armed, and trusted them to be responsible keepers of the arms they bore. If you trust a man to keep a rifle and a pistol in his home, why not trust him with a machine gun or artillery piece as well? The 2nd Amendment could have said ". . . keep and bear small arms. . . " but it did not so limit us. Is the nature and type of arms the man bears going to dictate what he does with it? I think not. Having that firepower in their homes, to defend their nation, also enabled them to defend their homes, lives and property. It was a natural and accepted side benefit, and one that was expected and intended at a time when the concept of a full time "police force" was non-existent. There were no standing police forces, per se, at that time, of which I am aware, and if there were, they surely were few and not of much size. There were, however, local sheriffs and federal marshalls who generally had to deputize volunteers when they had a need for manpower to deal with some situation other than a theft or a murder or something of that nature. At that time, it was expected and intended that each person would defend his own home from the bad guys, and that if the need arose a sheriff would raise a posse and come to the rescue. That was the nature of law enforcement in America when The Framers gathered to draft the 2nd Amendment.

What this really comes down to is, do we trust "the people" or do we not? The Framers elected to trust the people. Without getting overly political about this, in today's America, one of the biggest differences between the two major political parties in the U.S. is that one trusts the people to be grownups and decide for themselves how best to live their lives, and is wary of too much government control, while the other trusts government to be in loco parentis over the people, who, without been overseen by the kindly and benevolent government, would not fare very well in the big bad scary world. One sees a firearm as a natural tool and implement to live and protect a life freely lived. The other sees a firearm as a dangerous toy that can't be entrusted to the people. "Ralphie, you'll shoot your eye out."

This was never intended to be a nation where the lowest common denominator was to be the standard. Treating all people as though they are potential criminals if they possess a gun is not only unconstitutional, it is wrong thinking. No firearm is capable of doing harm on its own, and no firearm in the hands of a responsible citizen is going to be used in a murder or other violent crime. A criminal with a firearm is NOT a criminal BECAUSE he possesses a firearm. That is false logic. Take away the firearm, and he is still a criminal. Take away ALL firearms and he is still a criminal. The number of firearms in America, whether per capita or total, is not a factor in the number of criminals in America, or whether that number, or the number of their crimes, is increasing or decreasing. The D.C. handgun ban (R.I.P.) was proof enough of that.

Bumping an exceptionally good post. :)

Charliegone
03-16-2007, 04:55 PM
That guy needs to meet the back of my "Pimp Hand".

Hehe...I can picture it now.."I said shut up b****! SLAP!":D

jumbopanda
03-16-2007, 05:01 PM
Arguing that the 2A doesn't apply to modern firearms because they are too powerful is like saying that freedom of speech doesn't apply to radio, TV, internet, and any other form of communication that wasn't available 200 years ago.