PDA

View Full Version : I just had an epiphany! I can build up pistol lowers since I don't DROS!


tenpercentfirearms
01-09-2012, 9:33 PM
I just logged my new Rifle Gear Aggressor lower into my bound book when it hit me!

Ok, let's see what yall think. So my understanding is the best reason not to DROS an AR15 lower receiver and then build it into a pistol is because it is DROSed as a long gun. This long gun DROS taints the receiver and makes it a gray area on whether it is legal or not since it has some long gun lineage.

So, to all of you 01 FFLs with CFD in the room, you do not have to DROS receivers correcet? So when you non-corporations simple log the receiver out of your bound book as "for owner's personal collection", your receiver remains untainted! For those of us corporate types, we do not have to complete a DROS, but we do need to put our transaction on a 4473. Simply be sure to note it is an "other firearm".

So, I do believe I want to take my new Rifle Gear Aggressor home and then self-register it as a pistol in the state. Is that doable? I guess my main question now is can I self register? I might have to call Bob at DOJ tomorrow and ask.

dirtyJ
01-09-2012, 10:14 PM
Doable yes. Worth the hassle and 1-6 months of the same questions from 20 different phone agents at the DOJ? No.

TripleT
01-10-2012, 6:31 AM
Had a big long dissertation typed up but as I got to the bottom it occurs to me the question is actually pretty simple.

Is a stripped and undros'd receiver flavorless (pistol or longun) in the view of the BOF ?

franklinarmory
01-10-2012, 10:35 AM
Hey Wes.

I would make sure you tell your supplier to ship it as a "pistol" on the AI. I'm not sure if the DOJ can claim it was "tainted" under the AI documentation, but it would never hurt to be safe when you know you want to build it out as a pistol.

TripleT
01-10-2012, 11:01 AM
Hey Wes.

I would make sure you tell your supplier to ship it as a "pistol" on the AI. I'm not sure if the DOJ can claim it was "tainted" under the AI documentation, but it would never hurt to be safe when you know you want to build it out as a pistol.

That is a good point... I forgot when you do a CFLC it asks what you're shipping.

tenpercentfirearms
01-10-2012, 12:01 PM
Hey Wes.

I would make sure you tell your supplier to ship it as a "pistol" on the AI. I'm not sure if the DOJ can claim it was "tainted" under the AI documentation, but it would never hurt to be safe when you know you want to build it out as a pistol.

DOH! I bet Rifle Gear shipped it as a long gun. I just keep the number, so I have no idea.

However, the cool thing is how do they prove that was shipped by that number? They could deduce that the receiver was brought in on a certain shipment, but with no serial numbers attached, can they prove it?

EBR Works
01-10-2012, 3:32 PM
I was under the impression that the selection by a shipper of Handguns or Long Guns when doing CFLC has no bearing upon the status of a stripped receiver. Only when run through DROS as a long gun is the receiver potentially "tainted", no?

DannyInSoCal
01-10-2012, 3:36 PM
Just build it from an 80% lower....

ugimports
02-26-2012, 9:55 AM
I just logged my new Rifle Gear Aggressor lower into my bound book when it hit me!

Ok, let's see what yall think. So my understanding is the best reason not to DROS an AR15 lower receiver and then build it into a pistol is because it is DROSed as a long gun. This long gun DROS taints the receiver and makes it a gray area on whether it is legal or not since it has some long gun lineage.

So, to all of you 01 FFLs with CFD in the room, you do not have to DROS receivers correcet? So when you non-corporations simple log the receiver out of your bound book as "for owner's personal collection", your receiver remains untainted! For those of us corporate types, we do not have to complete a DROS, but we do need to put our transaction on a 4473. Simply be sure to note it is an "other firearm".

So, I do believe I want to take my new Rifle Gear Aggressor home and then self-register it as a pistol in the state. Is that doable? I guess my main question now is can I self register? I might have to call Bob at DOJ tomorrow and ask.

Related question... Say I purchase a 1911 Frame from Joe Bob in Kentucky. It gets sent to me with no CFLC because he's Joe Bob. It gets logged into my book as a receiver. Can I 4473 that to myself as other and avoid the DROS the same as an AR receiver?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but I want to know if I missed something in my thinking here.

Thanks

Santa Cruz Armory
02-26-2012, 10:16 AM
Related question... Say I purchase a 1911 Frame from Joe Bob in Kentucky. It gets sent to me with no CFLC because he's Joe Bob. It gets logged into my book as a receiver. Can I 4473 that to myself as other and avoid the DROS the same as an AR receiver?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but I want to know if I missed something in my thinking here.

Thanks

Yes, they have to use the CFLC program even if they're an out of state retailer.

I am an FFL located outside of California. I ship/transfer firearms to California FFLs. Am I affected by the California Firearms Licensee Check (CFLC) Program?

Yes. You must obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number from CADOJ Bureau of Firearms prior to delivering a firearm to a California FFL. Consequently, you will need to enroll in the CFLC program to obtain Firearms Shipment Approval numbers prior to shipping firearms to California....

kemasa
02-26-2012, 10:18 AM
Well, it is a frame, not a receiver. Could a 1911 frame be made into a rifle? Perhaps, but not likely. The question is what would CA consider it? I suspect they would still consider it to be a handgun, see below. The frame is still considered a firearm and I think that a handgun frame would still be considered capable of being concealed upon a person.


CA PC 16530. (a) As used in this part, the terms "firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person," "pistol," and "revolver" apply to
and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is
expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form
of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or
more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel
less than 16 inches in length.
(b) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person," "pistol," or "revolver" from
also being found to be a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled
shotgun.


The bottom line is that I think that if you got caught doing that you would have a problem.

kemasa
02-26-2012, 10:19 AM
Yes, they have to use the CFLC program even if they're an out of state retailer.

I think he meant that Job Bob was not a FFL, just an average (or average for his area) person.

rromeo
02-26-2012, 10:21 AM
Joe Bob isn't an FFL, he's just Joe Bob in Kentucky.

Santa Cruz Armory
02-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Joe Bob isn't an FFL, he's just Joe Bob in Kentucky.

LOL! I thought you meant Joe Bob outfitters. LOL!

Joe Bob Outfitters (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/)

ugimports
02-26-2012, 10:28 AM
Well, it is a frame, not a receiver. Could a 1911 frame be made into a rifle? Perhaps, but not likely. The question is what would CA consider it? I suspect they would still consider it to be a handgun, see below. The frame is still considered a firearm and I think that a handgun frame would still be considered capable of being concealed upon a person.



The bottom line is that I think that if you got caught doing that you would have a problem.

Why would the rules for a handgun frame (or receiver) be different than an AR frame/receiver which is also considered a firearm?

Also, whose to say I am not going to build up a .45 carbine with a kit like these:
http://www.mechtechsys.com/1911.php

It's fugly, but wouldn't this be a way to do that?

I think your argument would make more sense if these ready to build kits didn't exist.

kemasa
02-26-2012, 10:35 AM
Read the text in the link that you provided, it mentions "pistol frame".

You question also presents a problem "Why would the rules for a handgun frame ..." as you just defined it as a handgun.

There is also a bit of a problem in the logic of this. Depending on how you are licensed, a long gun does not need a DROS, but a handgun does. If you do the transfer without a DROS, then you are saying that it is a long gun, but then later you are claiming it is not a long gun, but actually a handgun, but you never submitted the DROS for it.

I think you can use a handgun frame as a rifle, as long as the barrel is long enough, but I don't think you can use a rifle receiver as a handgun.

ugimports
02-26-2012, 12:46 PM
Read the text in the link that you provided, it mentions "pistol frame".

You question also presents a problem "Why would the rules for a handgun frame ..." as you just defined it as a handgun.

There is also a bit of a problem in the logic of this. Depending on how you are licensed, a long gun does not need a DROS, but a handgun does. If you do the transfer without a DROS, then you are saying that it is a long gun, but then later you are claiming it is not a long gun, but actually a handgun, but you never submitted the DROS for it.

I think you can use a handgun frame as a rifle, as long as the barrel is long enough, but I don't think you can use a rifle receiver as a handgun.

By your above statement, merely me calling it a "handgun frame" makes it a handgun. If I were to generalize, than if I was receiving an AR Receiver and I called it an AR Pistol Receiver than that taints it?

Also, in regards to that site mentioning pistol frame.. A 1911 frame is most commonly used as a pistol and is why I mentioned "handgun frame". Just like an AR Receiver is mostly used as a long arm and thus people do not refer to them as AR Pistol Receivers. The mere marking of "Pistol" on the receiver doesn't turn it into a pistol or handgun either as many know.

So for the sake of argument let's drop the word handgun altogether and just talk about the 1911 frame.

If I can use a 1911 frame as a rifle than why could I not transfer it via just 4473 and decide what to make it later in the same way I could transfer an AR Receiver I may have received from a private party? Does the parts kit manufacturer referring to the 1911 frame as a "pistol frame" somehow taint CA's view of the receiver? If so, why?

Also, in regards to the link I sent, it does say pistol frame in some sections, but it also does generically refer to the 1911 frame as a lower:

Most 1911 lowers will work with the CCU including Officers Models. (NOTE: Mech-Tech advises the use of factory loaded ammo only for all CCU’s)


To the left: a 1911 frame (also called 'lower unit') ready to install into a CCU Upper. Complete lowers only are readily available available from many sources. This allows a user to have a dedicated lower for their CCU. Particularly for 1911's there are many sources for all internal components and naked frames allowing the more adventurous to build a dedicated lower for their CCU's the way they want it. None of the 1911 upper components are needed.


1911 Basic Unit with 'MonoRail' – M16 front sight, M16 carry handle rear sight, M4 stock adapter, M4 6 position stock. (1911 lower not included).

Here are several examples of that page using the upper/lower terminology. I don't think what the page says is that important IMHO. Just like if CMMG started selling a 16" Upper that said "Readily attaches to all AR15 Pistol Receivers" doesn't suddenly make all stripped receivers handguns.

ugimports
02-26-2012, 12:52 PM
One other clarification, I'm making the same licensing assumptions as the OP started the thread with.

kemasa
02-26-2012, 2:58 PM
The problem is that you want to transfer it as a long gun (CA), then change it to a handgun later. That is a problem. Talking about it as a handgun shows your intent, which does not help.

ugimports
02-26-2012, 3:06 PM
The problem is that you want to transfer it as a long gun (CA), then change it to a handgun later. That is a problem. Talking about it as a handgun shows your intent, which does not help.

Let me summarize what I'm asking since it appears my intent has been lost:

Original discussion:
A) If you're an FFL with a Corp on your ATF form and name on CFD you can transfer receivers (AR receivers) to yourself just filling out "other" on the 4473 and no DROS. The question was raised that since that receiver came into the state likely as a long gun on CFLC is it tainted. The intent was to build an AR pistol as the OP said.

No DROS would have occurred as a long gun.
No 4473 would have been marked Long Gun.
4473 would have been marked "other" and it would have been signed out to the FFL.

My Question:

B) If you're an FFL with a Corp on your ATF form and name on CFD can you transfer 1911 frames to yourself just filling out "other" on the 4473 and no DROS. If this came in to CA off CFLC such as from private party. The intent would be to build a pistol just like example A above.

I guess I'm not sure how you see my example as radically different from the original post.

I never said I wanted to transfer/DROS/4473 it as a "long gun". I want to 4473 it as Other and avoid the DROS as I believe is legal for non handguns.

Wes was originally inquiring about building his Riflegear lower as a pistol. Does that intent translate into a problem also (CFLC issues aside)?

kemasa
02-26-2012, 3:15 PM
No, your intent has not been lost.

CA has no "other", neither does the Feds actually since you have to list what it is. There is a selection of three boxes, which includes other, but is not specific to the firearm being transferred. When you list the actual firearms, other is not an option, frame and receiver is, but that is a Fed thing.

So, you want to transfer it under CA view as a non-handgun since you don't want to fill out the DROS. That makes it a long gun as far as CA is concerned. Then you want to built it and make it into a handgun, which is fine for the Feds, but CA might have an issue since suddenly you have a handgun which there has been no DROS on and has never been transferred as a handgun. This is where I think that you have an issue.

ugimports
02-26-2012, 3:21 PM
No, your intent has not been lost.

CA has no "other", neither does the Feds actually since you have to list what it is. There is a selection of three boxes, which includes other, but is not specific to the firearm being transferred. When you list the actual firearms, other is not an option, frame and receiver is, but that is a Fed thing.

So, you want to transfer it under CA view as a non-handgun since you don't want to fill out the DROS. That makes it a long gun as far as CA is concerned. Then you want to built it and make it into a handgun, which is fine for the Feds, but CA might have an issue since suddenly you have a handgun which there has been no DROS on and has never been transferred as a handgun. This is where I think that you have an issue.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. So basically what you're saying applies whether or not this is an AR Receiver or 1911 frame. I did not see you mention that information in the original thread when Wes brought it up so thought you were singling out the 1911 frame when I brought it into the discussion. I did not know that if you do not DROS something it is automatically considered a long gun. That alone should disqualify what Wes was thinking irregardless of the CFLC shipping selection for his particular receiver.

Also, in regards to having issues with a handgun which there has been no DROS on and has never been transferred as a handgun, how do they treat home builds where this is the case? I know a few people that have home build AK/AR pistols from flats and 80% receivers. Are they going to get in trouble with the DOJ since they fall into the category you are referring to?

kemasa
02-26-2012, 3:46 PM
I suspect there is a process to register a home built firearm, but that is really a different issue in my opinion since it was never transferred, it was just created, like a manufacturer. In the case that you are talking about you are transferring the firearm with a given serial number, not just creating it, and not doing what is required for a handgun.

I think that there is less of an issue with the CFLC since the serial number is never recorded.

jhaselton
02-26-2012, 10:28 PM
Can't an FFL DROS an AR lower to LEO as a pistol frame?

tenpercentfirearms
02-27-2012, 5:37 AM
Can't an FFL DROS an AR lower to LEO as a pistol frame?

Yes, but that doesn't help me out much. After Sacramento, I have no interest in going the LEO route for non-rostered handguns. Odds are no one would care if you aren't running hundreds of them, but why risk it?

bohoki
02-27-2012, 1:12 PM
how many you going to make?

so you as a ffl holder will just transfer it to yourself then submit a volreg?

its hard to think of the same person as 2 entities joe ffl and private individual joe personal handgun manufacturer