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View Full Version : Feds and CA-DOJ trigger locks.


taloft
03-14-2007, 4:08 PM
Okay, so I go to pickup my new CZ-75B in .40 cal. today. While doing the safety check and the final paperwork I notice that CZ has included a cable lock with the firearm.

I asked the clerk helping me why I was charged for a Cal-DOJ approved lock when I have a safe at home. He said that the Feds require a cable lock on all hand gun purchases. I said I knew that and there is a cable lock included with the gun. He said that the included lock isn't Cal-DOJ approved. I explained that I have a Safe that meets the state's requirement, and that there is nothing in the Federal law that requires the lock be state approved.

Now, the clerks are all scratching their heads and the owner is approaching. He informs me it is against state law to sell or hand over any type of gun lock that isn't on the approved list from the state, therefore I have to purchase a state approved gun lock in order to meet the Federal requirement. Even though I have a safe that would meet the state requirement. I don't doubt the sincerity of this statement. These guys have always done right by me. I told him that if my $9.00 would keep everyone in the good graces of the state and the feds then he was welcome to it.:p Just wondering if any of the FFL holders on the forum could confirm this? I guess there is no point in filling out a safe affidavit for a handgun.

boogak
03-14-2007, 4:19 PM
never happened to me. i thought if it included a cable lock or if you have a cadoj approved safe with proof then itll be legit

SemiAutoSam
03-14-2007, 4:20 PM
SO the safe affidavit works ok for long guns but not handguns ?

sounds like a conflitction between lame California law and lame federal law.

donger
03-14-2007, 4:40 PM
They just wanted the nine bucks.

Plus now they have less paperwork by not allowing you to sign the safe affadavit.

yoteassasin
03-14-2007, 4:41 PM
sorry but you got duped you are right but some times its eaier to let them think they are right and buy the lock anyways there is absolutely no fedral law and the ca law states that if you sign the safe affidavid you do not have to buy a ca doj-lock there are alot of locks supplied by oem with the new gun that are not ca-doj aproved and the thing with the safe affidavid you do not need to prove you own it you just have to swear you do,

WokMaster1
03-14-2007, 5:13 PM
didn't we go thru this not that long ago? It doesn't matter if you have a safe. Safes are to satisfy California DOJ requirements. Gun locks are to satisfy ATF (federal agency) Yes we got double penetrated!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the gun locks have to be bought within the last 30 days when you picked the handgun up. How do I know? I got beat up pretty good by those in the know for saying that we can use any locks from our inventory.......:)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=43137&highlight=trigger+locks

Here's EBWhite's research:
Originally Posted by EBWhite
This has nothing to do with CA law. It has to do with the new federal law req. new handguns be sold with locks. All handguns sold must come with a lock. However, instead of just throwing in a cheapo .99 cent lock, turners is making you buy a lock. This is only to follow the new federal law that was passed with the arms protection in commerce act.

With that mentioned, i did a ppt with saki302 last week and turners pasadena did not require a lock to be purchased.

Pulled from the Federal law:
SEC. 5. CHILD SAFETY LOCKS.

(c) FIREARMS SAFETY-

(1) MANDATORY TRANSFER OF SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICE- Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting at the end the following:

`(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICE-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921(a)(34)) for that handgun.


And 921 (a) 34 is this:
Quote:
(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means

In other words, it looks like
having a safe qualifies, and Turner's ought to let the safe affidavit satisfy the federal requirement, too.
you don't have to buy a lock, just bringing one in to attach to it should also qualify - you have to have one. A safe qualifies, and they can't make you buy a new safe for every gun, therefore a lock qualifies, and they shouldn't make you buy a lock for every gun.
CA law, however, says you MUST buy a new lock with every gun, unless you have a safe and sign the affidavit. So in both laws, a safe is satisfactory.

Added: the CA law

Quote:
12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a
dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices
and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference
to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the
physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on
the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed
firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and
all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with
warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c) [snipped]
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be
required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without
appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of
the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms
dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of
purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

SemiAutoSam
03-14-2007, 5:29 PM
Good point and does the law state you must buy it from the FFL that does the DROS ? If not I would buy it from somewhere else and make sure you can take it back The same day if possible. Or has this been done enough that those that sell the approved locks are wise to this angle ?

I always end up buying a lock, too. I have like 7+ locks that I don't need, but forced to buy. When I buy guns that come with locks, I haven't had to buy one, but the CZ lock might not be "approved." What you do is buy the lock, then return it in a day for a refund.

Tzvia
03-14-2007, 5:32 PM
When I bought my SIG last month, it came with a lock and that was just fine. Same for the Colt I bought last year, it came with a cable lock. The store would not take my State approved safe :confused: and the clerk stated that is no good for handguns :confused: even though they would fit in there just as well as a rifle :confused:. Conclusion? Gun laws are stupid. Cheezy cable locks are better at protecting your guns than big heavy safes. Gun laws make our streets safer, just look at DC, a shining example of gunlaws. Gunlaws are wonderful, easy to understand, and criminals cower at the words and the paper that they are written on. I feel better because I have about 10 of those stupid things. I am thinking about taking all my rifles out of the safes and putting cable locks on them instead. THEN I WILL BE SAFE.

stealthmode
03-14-2007, 5:32 PM
what about the integral locks like the S&W revolvers or SA 1911 with the ILS. those guns did not have gun locks that came with them only the built in locks. when I bought my last two revolvers I did not have to buy a seperate lock just filled out the safe form.

AW-FANATIC
03-14-2007, 5:43 PM
If all else fails just go and pick up a bunch of locks from the local police department. Most have free gun locks avaliable. You just have to ask.

kilword
03-14-2007, 5:47 PM
buy it then take it back later

jmlivingston
03-14-2007, 5:48 PM
If all else fails just go and pick up a bunch of locks from the local police department. Most have free gun locks avaliable. You just have to ask.

But do you get a receipt to demonstrate that you aquired it in the last 30 days to meet the state law when you pick up your handgun?

John

Librarian
03-14-2007, 6:10 PM
WokMaster seems to have it right (I'd better think so, I posted in that same thread as EBWhite did...)

Anybody know how to approach BATFE to ask them to get off the dime and issue regs that include all of 921(a)34 as qualifying for the Child Safety thing? That would be a big help.

Just to summarize, I think it goes like this -
California requires that you EITHER have a lock, provably purchased in the last 30 days, OR sign the safe affidavit.
Feds require "SECURE GUN STORAGE OR SAFETY DEVICE", which can either be a lock or a safe. If you go the lock route, it has to be on the California approved list, or CA dealers can't deliver to you. BATFE's letter from April last year conveniently forgot to list 'safe' as satisfying the requirement.

Johnny Diablo
03-14-2007, 6:17 PM
Yeppers

I bought a 10 rifle sentry locker from turners and dont know the model so had to buy the locks. I was thinking about just giving them back to the gunshop so they can sell them to the next guy.

They have that safe guns program printed on them. They hand them out free at gunshows.

dfletcher
03-14-2007, 6:26 PM
Having recently bought more than 1 handgun in 30 days - a PPT and a new one - all I did for the new one is bring in the less than 30 day old receipt from the PPT with the lock and I did not have to buy a new CA approved gun lock with the 2nd gun.

I have to say I've got no idea as to what the law is & suspect some gun store owners are in the same boat. All I know is I've got well over 100 locks sitting in plastic bags. Maybe I should set up a table at the Cow Palace & sell them for $3.00 each, receipt included of course.

taloft
03-14-2007, 6:28 PM
Actually, there is a Federal Law requiring a safety lock with the purchase of a Handgun. Sorry: it was SA1626. The other I referenced was the attempt to gut it. They attached it to this bill in 06. It passed and is current Federal Law. Thanks to the clowns at the Brady Campaign.:mad: All Handgun purchases require a safety lock. The Ca-DOJ requires all locks to be on the approved list.

This is the relevant section for the Ca-DOJ Safety device.

12088.15. (a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearms safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088, or that does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.
(b) No person may distribute as part of an organized firearm safety program, with or without consideration, any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088 or does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.


This is why they couldn't just let me go with the included lock. It is a catch-22. The Feds require a safety lock and they don't care if you have a safe unless you're buying it right then. No safe affidavits for the feds. The state will accept a safe affidavit but, any locks have to be on the approved list. Since the Feds want a lock and the state wants all locks to be approved, you are going to purchase an approved lock unless the handgun already comes with a CA-DOJ approved lock, regardless if you have a safe or not. Since there is no escaping the approved lock, safe affidavits for handgun purchases is moot. It still works for longguns. Oh well, at least I know for certain that I had to buy it. Lesson learned, and shared.:)

Tzvia, you could always hang them off a piece of #25 rebar and shoot them with your rifles. I would imagine they would hold up fairly well to .22lr.:D

paradox
03-14-2007, 6:29 PM
But do you get a receipt to demonstrate that you aquired it in the last 30 days to meet the state law when you pick up your handgun?

John


If you ask for it they do (at least my locals do).

I'm working on getting enough project childsafe locks as side effects from my purchases to make a long flail...

Librarian
03-14-2007, 6:56 PM
The Feds require a safety lock and they don't care if you have a safe. Not so - the Feds say a safe is fine - see 921(a)34 posted up-thread.

It's BATFE that has not issued regs to the FFLs that is mucking things up.

socalguns
03-14-2007, 8:49 PM
But do you get a receipt to demonstrate that you aquired it in the last 30 days to meet the state law when you pick up your handgun?

John

Yes.
http://www.projectchildsafe.org/

All it is a sheet of paper with some writing
(i don't recall, but probably "safety" information)
ending with the model/number of locks you received and a date
and I think your signature (proving you read the safety or something)

If you don't get that, simply ask the clerk
to take some letterhead (any piece of paper will do),
write lock model number, number of locks, and the date, and sign it

taloft
03-14-2007, 8:49 PM
This is how they explain the new law from 2005.

The BATF already clarified it here:

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (9/05)

18 U.S.C. 922(z) was added to
the Gun Control Act as part of the
“Protection of Lawful Commerce in
Arms Act” enacted on October 26,
2005. It is effective April 24, 2006.
(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR
SAFTEY DEVICE—
(1) IN GENERAL- Except as
Provided under paragraph (2), it shall
be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or
transfer any handgun to any person
other than any person licensed under
this chapter, unless the transferee is
provided with a secure gun storage
or safety device (as defined in sec
tion 921(a)(34)) for that handgun.
(2) EXCEPTIONS – Paragraph shall not apply to--
(A)(i) the manufacture for, transfer
to, or possession by, the United
States, a department or agency of the
United States, a State, or a depart
ment, agency, or political subdivision
of a State, of a handgun; or
(ii) the transfer to, or possession
by, a law enforcement officer em
ployed by an entity referred to in
clause (i) of a handgun for law en
forcement purposes (whether on or
off duty); or
(B) the transfer to, or possession by
a rail police officer employed by a rail
carrier and certified or commissioned
as a police officer under the laws of a
State of a handgun for purposes of law
enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(C) the transfer to any person of a
handgun listed as a curio or relic by
the Secretary pursuant to section
921(a)(13); or
(D) the transfer to any person of a
handgun for which a secure gun stor
age or safety device is temporarily
unavailable for the reasons described
in the exceptions stated in section
923(e), if the licensed manufacturer,
licensed importer, or licensed dealer
delivers to the transferee within 10
calendar days from the date of the
delivery of the handgun to the trans
feree a secure gun storage or safety
device for the handgun.

This is from:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

specifically

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/18usc_chap44.pdf

Here's the open letter that led me to the FFRRG. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/031706openletter-safetylocks.pdf

I don't see a provision for affidavits to be used. Any FFL's getting Affidavit forms from the BATF for this? Can you show me where it states that an affidavit is acceptable to the BATF? Until I see it, I'm not about to raise the issue with my local gun dealers. I wish it were otherwise. This doesn't apply to private transfers. If anybody has anything more relevant/current please post links so we can check it out. I'm inclined to agree that a safe should satisfy both state and fed but, until we get a solid determination on the issue I think we're stuck.

Here is the relevant section of the new law that this addresses:

(Sec. 5) Child Safety Lock Act of 2005 - Prohibits the sale, delivery, or transfer by a licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer of a handgun to any person other than a person with a firearms license unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. Lists exceptions, including for U.S. and state agencies and for law enforcement. Grants immunity from a qualified civil liability action for a person who has lawful possession and control of a handgun and who uses a secure gun storage or safety device. Establishes as penalties for violations: (1) license revocation or suspension for up to six months; or (2) a civil penalty of up to $2,500.

The link I got it from:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN00397:@@@D&summ2=3&

I personally think the whole thing sucks but, what else can you do? It's not like I can dictate terms to the FFL when making a purchase. The idea of purchasing the lock elsewhere then returning it seems pointless since it would cost as much in time and gas as it would just to purchase it at the dealers locale. YMMV.

I've never explored the Project ChildSafe situation. I will be looking into it.

socalguns
03-14-2007, 8:51 PM
Those participating in project child safe
are supposed to do it automatically,
I know for a fact they got memo-d about that in ~2005

socalguns
03-14-2007, 8:55 PM
If the dealer is not willing to refund/buy-back the lock immediately,
then yes, driving somewhere else is definitely worth it.

Librarian
03-14-2007, 9:21 PM
I don't see a provision for affidavits to be used. Any FFL's getting Affidavit forms from the BATF for this? Can you show me where it states that an affidavit is acceptable to the BATF?That's the issue. As you posted (1) IN GENERAL- Except as Provided under paragraph (2),
it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter,
unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921(a)(34)) for that handgun.The BATFE has not provided regs that explicitly deal with owning gun safes as satisfying the requirements of 18 USC 922 (z), and they should -- 18 USC 921(a)34 says a safe qualifies as secure gun storage. Until BATFE does that, there's no reason for a cautious FFL to take a customer's word for it.