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Sacramento Black Rifle
01-04-2012, 5:24 PM
Took a phone call today from a customer that needed information on a rifle he inherited from his father. He proceeds to tell me the gun was a registered assault weapon and that he wanted to know how he could make it legal. I tell him I am not a lawyer and was not going to give him legal advice; however I did let him know that being in possession of said firearm, He was in violation of California law. Well I guess he didn’t like what I had to say. This is how the rest of the conversation went.
Customer:” I don’t like your enthusiasm about my situation DOJ and ATF they understand this sort of thing”????
Me: Ok what would you like me to tell you??? You just admitted to me over the phone you just committed a felony.
Customer: “You need to take a step back and listen to what I have to say”
Me: Sir I don’t know who you are, or what you want to hear, but I think you should get a hold of Jason Davis @ this # and he could better assist you with this matter.
Customer: “After I tell you this I am going to hang up”.
Me: I never gave him the chance I hung the phone up.
So he calls right back to argue with me about my “enthusiasm and my trepidation” with his situation. I proceeded to tell him I don’t like the laws anymore then he does but I must follow them to the letter. I guess I am the bad guy???

Rant over

halifax
01-04-2012, 5:34 PM
LOL, yep it really surprises me some of the illegal stuff I've been asked to do by customers because I'm supposed to be on their side. :rolleyes:

I wish I could but it ain't worth it.

brianinca
01-04-2012, 8:51 PM
You can't cure stupid in person, let alone over the phone. Nothing you can do about it.

It always cracks me up that the only people that tell me "the customer is always right" are the people I've already told to go away. Good clients are worth their weight in gold, spend your energy on them.

Regards,
Brian in CA

ElvenSoul
01-04-2012, 8:57 PM
Just send them here...we love helping :)

dachan
01-04-2012, 9:56 PM
There is a possibility that when the father registered the AW, he properly designated his son as the heir and that the RAW is now legally his.

negolien
01-05-2012, 3:15 AM
There is a possibility that when the father registered the AW, he properly designated his son as the heir and that the RAW is now legally his.

Ya sounds like his father legally owned the weapon and died and he's wondering what to do with it. Way to increase your customer base......Doesn't surprise me though :facepalm: well done sir. Then coming here to post about it is even more fail sauce. I went to your shop one time and never went back. :p

halifax
01-05-2012, 4:19 AM
There is a possibility that when the father registered the AW, he properly designated his son as the heir and that the RAW is now legally his.

I haven't seen a RAW form in years so I don't really remember if there was a line to designate an heir. Is that true?

Sacramento Black Rifle
01-05-2012, 6:38 AM
He can never own the weapon, however he could have shipped it out of state with the proper paperwork but he had none.. I tried to give him all the info to someone that could better assist in this. So shame on me for my FAIL sauce... And for me posting this in the FFL section.

brianinca
01-05-2012, 7:13 AM
>>>
I went to your shop one time and never went back.
>>>
if there was a line to designate an heir. Is that true?
>>>

NO. The previous post is ignorant and a perfect example of the kind of "customer" you don't want in the first place. "I don't like the answer to my question, I want a DIFFERENT answer!"

>>>>
I tried to give him all the info to someone that could better assist in this.
>>>

Shucks, this thread shows the difference between "good money" and "bad money" - at least you were known as the authority on what to do, how that makes it your fault, I dunno.....

Regards,
Brian in CA

dachan
01-05-2012, 8:39 AM
I haven't seen a RAW form in years so I don't really remember if there was a line to designate an heir. Is that true?

Yes it was possible to designate an heir, but only at the time of registration. Also, it was only possible to designate one "generation" of inheiritance and the heir had to be 18yrs old at the time.

But this is from nearly 20yr memory. I've been trying to find a copy of the forms to verify but haven't been successful so far.

Bolillo
01-05-2012, 8:50 AM
There is a possibility that when the father registered the AW, he properly designated his son as the heir and that the RAW is now legally his.

Nope. Very few choices on inheriting a RAW: Move it out of state, turn it in to LE, or destroy it. CPC 12285 (b) There's also an option of selling it to a FFL with an CA AW permit, but I understand that those FFLs are few and far between. And the resale value would be minimal because there's no CA market. Ditto with out-of-state, since outside CA, it's just another EBR.

AFAIK, a CA AW is the only piece of property that can't simply be inherited. Not even in a family trust. There's probably a court case to be had under 14A Equal Protection grounds, but it's such a small number of owners relative to the CCW, Roster, 2A issues the Right People are already tied up with.

thedrickel
01-05-2012, 8:52 AM
I thought the estate has 90 (?) days to dispose of the AW . . . ?

halifax
01-05-2012, 9:38 AM
Yes it was possible to designate an heir, but only at the time of registration. Also, it was only possible to designate one "generation" of inheiritance and the heir had to be 18yrs old at the time.

But this is from nearly 20yr memory. I've been trying to find a copy of the forms to verify but haven't been successful so far.

Thanks dachan.

Man, I don't remember a thing about that. :oji:

ke6guj
01-05-2012, 9:58 AM
Yes it was possible to designate an heir, but only at the time of registration. Also, it was only possible to designate one "generation" of inheiritance and the heir had to be 18yrs old at the time.

But this is from nearly 20yr memory. I've been trying to find a copy of the forms to verify but haven't been successful so far.

don't recall anything like that on the form.



I thought the estate has 90 (?) days to dispose of the AW . . . ?true. the caller might have been inside the 90-window and therefore not commiitted a felony yet.

ke6guj
01-05-2012, 10:02 AM
don't recall anything like that on the form.

here is the AW registration form, no spot for heirs.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=129084&stc=1&d=1325790085

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=129085&stc=1&d=1325790092

Sacramento Black Rifle
01-05-2012, 10:13 AM
The customer called you wanting guidance. He objected to your "enthusiasm."
It is not the words we say, but how they are communicated. Perceived excitement was not what he needed to hear.

You're not the bad guy, but calm steps in how to handle this problem would have been better received.

Non-gun guys get wigged out easily about guns. Confident and calm always goes over well.

And that is why I gave him Jason Davis's phone number.

tenpercentfirearms
01-05-2012, 10:26 PM
Ya sounds like his father legally owned the weapon and died and he's wondering what to do with it. Way to increase your customer base......Doesn't surprise me though :facepalm: well done sir. Then coming here to post about it is even more fail sauce. I went to your shop one time and never went back. :p

This is why we need to hurry and get the CAL-FFL boards up and running. You will be able to vent and not have the peanut gallery blow things out of proportion.

However, I do agree this is fail sauce as far as venting goes. Now this is venting!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=130071

Dingoguns
01-06-2012, 1:28 AM
For the record, I'm new at this, so don't come down too hard on me! ;)

If this were, say, an AR-15 and it was listed as a RAW, is there any way to remove it's RAW status (say by installing a BB or going featureless), report that this was done and thereby make it legal for the son to inherit?

I have a friend whose father has such a RAW and he is not doing very well health-wise. I was under the impression that something along these lines could be done... but it might be so much FUD for all I know.

efillc
01-06-2012, 5:09 AM
This is why we need to hurry and get the CAL-FFL boards up and running. You will be able to vent and not have the peanut gallery blow things out of proportion.
You are more than welcome to vent here, as we do understand and sympathize, even if we don't feel your pain:
http://www.fflonly.com/forum/index.php

tenpercentfirearms
01-06-2012, 6:29 AM
For the record, I'm new at this, so don't come down too hard on me! ;)

If this were, say, an AR-15 and it was listed as a RAW, is there any way to remove it's RAW status (say by installing a BB or going featureless), report that this was done and thereby make it legal for the son to inherit?

I have a friend whose father has such a RAW and he is not doing very well health-wise. I was under the impression that something along these lines could be done... but it might be so much FUD for all I know.

It is possible if the RAW is not a category 1 or 2 RAW that is listed by make and model number. If listed by make and model number, then no, it can not be deactivated.

DEPUTYBILL
01-06-2012, 5:45 PM
Not an FFL,but could the person that inherited a RAW take it apart and dispose of the serial#ed lower(assuming a colt ar-15) and keep or sell all the parts,or assemble a rifle with a non RAW lower?

JagerDog
01-06-2012, 10:56 PM
It is possible if the RAW is not a category 1 or 2 RAW that is listed by make and model number. If listed by make and model number, then no, it can not be deactivated.

That's what I was thinking. If listed, an OLL could be installed too I'd gather? Would any or all of this require an AW FFL to perform the mods? I'd guess there's some paperwork required to get it off the AW status?

Most AW's were listed TMK. EBR's were mostly Colt and Bushmaster (and Olympic???). OLL's came out later as a cottage industry as a result of case law.

I never registered my Bushmaster. Instead I took it to OR for storage. Eventually I bought a complete lower, swapped it in and brought it to CA. The Bushmaster lower is still in OR.

As the generation that had the opportunity to register an AW age, this question will become more popular. Some complete guidance would be beneficial.

joefrank64k
01-06-2012, 11:00 PM
Does this "fail-sauce" come in different flavors? :D

halifax
01-07-2012, 3:34 AM
Does this "fail-sauce" come in different flavors? :D

It's all bitter

shark92651
01-07-2012, 8:29 PM
We had something similar today as well. A customer transferred in a Colt AR15-A3 with a magazine lock to us. When we tried to explain that it was an AW in California he argued with us that it wasn't because there was "a court case" that changed that. We tried to explain the difference between type 1, 2, & 3 AWs and how Harrott applies to Type 2 only and showed him the flow chart. We asked him if he saw his model listed in the appendix he said "doesn't matter, you aren't going to transfer it to me anyway" :shrug:

I can understand a customer being disappointed, stubborn, or frustrated when they hear that their new firearm is illegal.

Dingoguns
01-09-2012, 9:06 PM
It is possible if the RAW is not a category 1 or 2 RAW that is listed by make and model number. If listed by make and model number, then no, it can not be deactivated.

Nope, its an off-list lower, but he had it registered as an AW for some reason. He was law enforcement, so maybe that had something to do with it, but I'm not sure.

As the son is not at his best right now due to his Dad's condition, I've taken it upon myself to pursue this issue for him. What should I tell him about getting this otherwise compliant rifle off of it's RAW status? Obviously it needs a mag lock or to be made featureless... do I need to take it to an AW dealer to have this done? Or can I do the necessary mods myself and send in some form of paperwork as an 01, since the BB is (I would assume) a drop-in part?

Don't worry, I'm not about to touch it until I get some feedback here. :p

Dingoguns
01-13-2012, 12:47 AM
Anyone?

Dang it, looks like I may have to do this the hard way and actually call DOJ. *sigh*

kemasa
01-13-2012, 9:46 AM
The easy solution is to replace the lower and be done with it.

I am not sure, but I don't believe that you can make the changes since you are not an AW dealer. The firearm can not be transferred since it is a RAW, which means that the son can't make the changes. I suspect that the DOJ will say that it has to be turned over to the police.

itisagoodname
01-13-2012, 10:19 AM
You did the right thing.

With guns being in the spotlight lately you wouldnt want to do anything to affect your business. You may not have had all the correct information but you gave him the resource of someone who should. I was given some baaaaad information before from a shop and i'm sure their *** would be hurting if i happened to have been a LEO or at all affiliated with the DOJ or BATF.

His attitude will land him in a world of trouble someday. That's not something for you to worry about, you did your part.

ke6guj
01-13-2012, 10:27 AM
The easy solution is to replace the lower and be done with it.

I am not sure, but I don't believe that you can make the changes since you are not an AW dealer. The firearm can not be transferred since it is a RAW, which means that the son can't make the changes. I suspect that the DOJ will say that it has to be turned over to the police.
I don't see why the son couldn't go to the dad's house and disassemble the RAW into parts and then leave the RAW receiver with the dad and then go out and buy a new OLL to re-assemble the parts. There would be no transfer since the father still had possession of the RAW component.

OR, the son could install a maglock into the RAW for his father while at the father's house and then fill out the "no longer a RAW" NLIP paperwork and have the father sign it and mail it in.

In either scenario above, no transfer took place while it was a RAW so it shouldn't be a violation.

kemasa
01-13-2012, 11:01 AM
I don't see why the son couldn't go to the dad's house and disassemble the RAW into parts and then leave the RAW receiver with the dad and then go out and buy a new OLL to re-assemble the parts. There would be no transfer since the father still had possession of the RAW component.


To quote a TV show: He's dead Jim.

I don't think that the father still has or can have possession.


OR, the son could install a maglock into the RAW for his father while at the father's house and then fill out the "no longer a RAW" NLIP paperwork and have the father sign it and mail it in.


Signing might be a slight problem (see above).


In either scenario above, no transfer took place while it was a RAW so it shouldn't be a violation.

Yes, assuming one small minor detail, which is: "He's dead Jim".

ke6guj
01-13-2012, 11:05 AM
Anyone?

Dang it, looks like I may have to do this the hard way and actually call DOJ. *sigh*

The easy solution is to replace the lower and be done with it.

I am not sure, but I don't believe that you can make the changes since you are not an AW dealer. The firearm can not be transferred since it is a RAW, which means that the son can't make the changes. I suspect that the DOJ will say that it has to be turned over to the police.

To quote a TV show: He's dead Jim.

I don't think that the father still has or can have possession.



Signing might be a slight problem (see above).



Yes, assuming one small minor detail, which is: "He's dead Jim".I was commenting on your post that followed Dingoguns, so I assumed you were responding to him. In his situation, the father is still alive.





For the record, I'm new at this, so don't come down too hard on me! ;)

If this were, say, an AR-15 and it was listed as a RAW, is there any way to remove it's RAW status (say by installing a BB or going featureless), report that this was done and thereby make it legal for the son to inherit?

I have a friend whose father has such a RAW and he is not doing very well health-wise. I was under the impression that something along these lines could be done... but it might be so much FUD for all I know.

Nope, its an off-list lower, but he had it registered as an AW for some reason. He was law enforcement, so maybe that had something to do with it, but I'm not sure.

As the son is not at his best right now due to his Dad's condition, I've taken it upon myself to pursue this issue for him. What should I tell him about getting this otherwise compliant rifle off of it's RAW status? Obviously it needs a mag lock or to be made featureless... do I need to take it to an AW dealer to have this done? Or can I do the necessary mods myself and send in some form of paperwork as an 01, since the BB is (I would assume) a drop-in part?

Don't worry, I'm not about to touch it until I get some feedback here. :p

ke6guj
01-13-2012, 11:10 AM
and if the father had died, then this comes into play.

(b)(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), no assault weapon possessed pursuant to this section may be sold or transferred on or after January 1, 1990, to anyone within this state other than to a licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 12290, or as provided in Section 12288. Any person who (A) obtains title to an assault weapon registered under this section or that was possessed pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12280 by bequest or intestate succession, or (B) lawfully possessed a firearm subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5, or subsequently defined as an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.1, shall, within 90 days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell the weapon to a licensed gun dealer, obtain a permit from the Department of Justice in the same manner as specified in Article 3 (commencing with Section 12230) of Chapter 2, or remove the weapon from this state. A person who lawfully possessed a firearm that was subsequently declared to be an assault weapon pursuant to Section 12276.5 may alternatively register the firearm within 90 days of the declaration issued pursuant to subdivision (f) of Section 12276.5.

kemasa
01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
I was commenting on your post that followed Dingoguns, so I assumed you were responding to him. In his situation, the father is still alive.

Opps, sorry, I got confused with the two situations. You are correct in what can be done in that case.

Dingoguns
01-19-2012, 1:56 AM
Thank you both for the feedback and PC references. At least now I have some options that I can run by him!

Eddy's Shooting Sports
01-23-2012, 1:52 AM
If he's still within the 90 days and it's an AR, then sell him an OLL and a maglock and suggest a large hammer for the evil lower.