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weaponsandgear
01-04-2012, 9:52 AM
All,

I have been in search of the elusive Kel-Tec KSG for a while and randomly check in with dealers to see if there has actually been any moving round in the supply chain. Well, to my astonishment I was told by my rep at RSR that the KSG has been added to RSR's "not CA legal" list.

So after I picked myself up off the floor, I went to my handy Calgun Shotgun flow chart. Once again, I cannot imagine how they could remotely come to that conclusion.

Anyway, unless I am missing something pretty basic, it seems RSR's legal dept is spooning out FUD on this one.

Anyone hearing anything like this?

Quiet
01-04-2012, 12:17 PM
The issue with the Kel-Tec KSG is concerning it's magazine capacity and there are currently two different viewpoints on the matter.

Viewpoint #1.
It has two seperate fixed tubular magazines. Capacity is 7+7+1 = 15.
This viewpoint would conclude that it is not a large capacity magazine, therefore it is CA legal.

Viewpoint #2.
It has one magazine feeding device that incorporates two fixed tubular magazines. Capacity is 14+1 = 15.
This viewpoint would conclude that it is a large capacity magazine, therefore it can not be imported/transfered to a non-exempt person.

There are retailers/distributors that agree with both viewpoints.
So, you will get conflicting statements on if it is CA legal for non-exempt persons.
And until CA DOJ or the Courts decide, it will be up to the policy of the individual retailer/distributor to decide on if they are willing to import/transfer them to non-exempt persons in CA.

Cyphre
01-04-2012, 1:02 PM
OAL is also 26.1" if that matters.

I seem to recall there being exemptions on capacity for fixed tubular magazines some time ago (maybe before a law changed). Mostly in regards to lever-action rifles as shotguns have never really come close in capacity.

weaponsandgear
01-04-2012, 2:29 PM
Viewpoint #2.
It has one magazine feeding device that incorporates two fixed tubular magazines. Capacity is 14+1 = 15.
This viewpoint would conclude that it is a large capacity magazine, therefore it can not be imported/transfered to a non-exempt person.
.

If that viewpoint was going to be the case, then how could the Rossi M92 rifle(which holds 12 rounds of 44MAG) be legal since it is a tube fed rifle as well.

Of course a rhetorical question....

PlacerTactical
01-04-2012, 2:50 PM
I heard from my RSR rep that they put in a request to Kel-tec regarding being Ca legal. They said since the butt-pad is removable, it would put it under 26" so they are looking in to it.

kemasa
01-04-2012, 2:57 PM
30" is the magic number for rifles:


CA PC 12276.1(a)(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches


It is not a matter of what can be done to the firearm to make it under 30", just whether or not that it is. You could remove the stock on a firearm and make it under 30" and you could take a hacksaw and cut the barrel down, but unless you actually do it, it is not illegal. The same is true for the minimum length of a shotgun.

There is no length stated for shotguns in CA:


(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a
detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.


But this is for semi-auto in terms of the telescoping stock and the pistol grip.

ke6guj
01-04-2012, 3:21 PM
If that viewpoint was going to be the case, then how could the Rossi M92 rifle(which holds 12 rounds of 44MAG) be legal since it is a tube fed rifle as well. because the tube-fed exemption only applies to lever-action firearms, and to .22lr rifles of any action type.


hte KSG is a pump-action firearm, so the exemption does not apply to it.


12020(c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

the bolded section is why a Rossi M92 is legal to sell with a 11+ round tubular magazine.

PlacerTactical
01-04-2012, 6:35 PM
30" is the magic number for rifles:



It is not a matter of what can be done to the firearm to make it under 30", just whether or not that it is. You could remove the stock on a firearm and make it under 30" and you could take a hacksaw and cut the barrel down, but unless you actually do it, it is not illegal. The same is true for the minimum length of a shotgun.

There is no length stated for shotguns in CA:



But this is for semi-auto in terms of the telescoping stock and the pistol grip.

A short-barreled shotgun means a firearm designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell that
has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches; any
weapon made from a shotgun which meets the barrel length or overall length criteria; any device
which may be restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell and which meets the barrel length or overall
length criteria; or any part or combination of parts designed and intended to convert a device into
a short-barreled shotgun or which would permit an individual to readily assemble a short-barreled
shotgun. (Penal Code 12020(c)(1).)

This shows a 26" minimum for shotguns.
I do agree though about it doesn't matter what could be done to make it shorter.

rromeo
01-04-2012, 9:04 PM
This shows a 26" minimum for shotguns.
I do agree though about it doesn't matter what could be done to make it shorter.

The 26" minimum is federal, so the removable buttpad story is BS anyway.

Cokebottle
01-04-2012, 9:19 PM
KSG is still GTG as far as anyone knows.
Turner's has word that there is a non-production related delay but they ARE coming.
This delay is NOT related to the CaDOJ or any other state's DOJ.

kemasa
01-05-2012, 8:54 AM
From what I have read here, the issue is with the tubular magazine and the capacity. As was stated previously, it depends on whether you consider it one or two since it is not a lever action.

I missed the length requirement for shotguns, which is a CA law, as quoted above. There is also the Federal length, but this does not appear to be an issue with this firearm.

weaponsandgear
01-05-2012, 10:01 AM
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.



I suppose one could argue that at pump shotgun falls under a "lever action" as the pump is acting as a lever in order to eject and feed a round. Is "lever" or "lever action" ever defined in CA law? I couldn't find any reference of note.

Also, as also stated, we will have to hope that the magazine tubes are two individual magazines attached to the gun. Either way, I have a lot of customers waiting....and not so patiently!

Thanks all for the input.

D-FORCE
01-05-2012, 3:56 PM
So I called CA DOJ in Sacto today about the KSG legality.

By no means am I advocating that the person who answers the phone is sound legal advice but I thought what I discussed was worth passing on.

DOJ has this gun up for legal review with no stated date for determination. The review as many already have discussed is simply based on how to define the double tube magazine and what that means for acceptable round count in CA.

The interesting part is that whether my next statement would hold up in law or not, is that, I was told until a ruling is made DOJ would allow them to be sold to CA residents. If after a determination, it was concluded they were deamed AW's then the owner ahead of the ruling would be grandfathered into ownership. Owner would be given a period of time to register with DOJ as an AW or of course sell or remove from CA.

So the only challenge might be finding a local FFL that is up to date on this item and willing to sign it over based on this grey period.

Hope this is helpful... let the buying frenzy and rush begin!

ke6guj
01-05-2012, 4:02 PM
The interesting part is that whether my next statement would hold up in law or not, is that, I was told until a ruling is made DOJ would allow them to be sold to CA residents. If after a determination, it was concluded they were deamed AW's then the owner ahead of the ruling would be grandfathered into ownership. Owner would be given a period of time to register with DOJ as an AW or of course sell or remove from CA.

which doesn't make any sense at all. A 14+1 round pump-action shotgun is NOT an AW. It would be a shotgun with a large-capacity magazine. How would registering it an AW grandfather the initial crime when the FFL sold a large-capacity to a person who was not exempt?

CSACANNONEER
01-05-2012, 4:05 PM
I didn't think that DOJ could put any new firearms on the AW list????? Yet, this firearm could be listed even if the tubes were plugged????? I just don't see the gun itself being able to bee an AW. It might not be able to be sold UNLESS it has a total capacity of 10 rounds or less but, that would not be hard to do.

kemasa
01-05-2012, 4:06 PM
That is quite the interesting question. If you created a semi-auto rifle that accepted two ten round magazines, would it be legal?

In this case, if the issue is with the tubular magazine, it seems like it could be blocked to accept only 10 total rounds, then there would not be an issue. If it was later found to be legal as it was, then block could be removed.

CSACANNONEER
01-05-2012, 4:11 PM
That is quite the interesting question. If you created a semi-auto rifle that accepted two ten round magazines, would it be legal?



Why stop at 2 magazines?:D Hmm, this could get very interesting. How about an adapter which would allow two or more magazines to be inserted in it and fit into a standard mag well. I have no idea how this could be done (yet), I'm just brain storming. Anyway, if it's possible, could such an adapter be used on a fixed mag build since each magazine would only hold 10 rounds?????

tonelar
01-05-2012, 4:13 PM
...

Hope this is helpful... let the buying frenzy and rush begin!

kinda hard to incite a buying frenzy when there's nothing to buy

D-FORCE
01-05-2012, 4:29 PM
That's not true. Go on to gunbroker and there are about +15 or so listings... The issue is more than half won't ship to CA. If you call the remaining folks that don't mention on their listing most of them give you the I'm not willing to go down that road.

Plus the pricing is ridiculous for the new and limited factor right now.

tenpercentfirearms
01-05-2012, 11:16 PM
I wasn't impressed at last year's SHOT Show when the guy at the Kel-Tec both was having a hell of a hard time operating it with snap caps.

Now in theory, an 01 FFL can legally sell large capacity magazines and it is not illegal for a person to buy magazines. So if an FFL sells you one, you should be legit.

I have no plans to put that theory into practice however. That firearm is not worth it.

Cokebottle
01-05-2012, 11:20 PM
I have no plans to put that theory into practice however. That firearm is not worth it.
I'll drive to your shop next weekend if you'd like to put that theory into practice with some XD9 16 rounders ;)

Quiet
01-08-2012, 12:05 PM
I suppose one could argue that at pump shotgun falls under a "lever action" as the pump is acting as a lever in order to eject and feed a round. Is "lever" or "lever action" ever defined in CA law? I couldn't find any reference of note.
CA DOJ views "lever action" and "pump aka slide action" as two different actions, even through they are not defined by CA law.
One uses a vertical motion to operate, the other uses a horizontal motion to operate.


AFAIK...
The lever action firearm exemption was created as a "reward" for the cowboy action shooters supporting the large capacity magazine ban.

CA Gun Laws Suck
01-10-2012, 8:31 PM
Instead of distributors selling guns to dealers like they are supposed to they go beyond their job and flag guns all the time. We have even had Saigas flagged from a distributor "not legal in CA" or some text along those lines, even though they are legal to sell. We will see once the KSG is actually out what happens.