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Huevos Machaca
03-12-2007, 9:40 PM
Couple questions about the Chicom M1A's...

1. Are there any to avoid? Polytech vs Norinco? I thought there were a couple state owned firearms factories and Polytech and Norinco were merely marketing brands. I realize most will need a milspec bolt fitted to the receiver.

2. Were the flash hiders permanently attached? If so, on all variants?

3. How to purchase one off gunbroker.com? Since most will have a super evil flash hider that will need to removed before coming to CA, it seems prudent to have an intermediary FFL, knowledgeable about CA gun laws outside the state receive it and remove any evil features and ensure no magazines are included that hold more than 10 rounds. I would be concerned about the seller improperly removing the flash hider and butchering the rifle. Open to suggestions.

Mssr. Eleganté
03-12-2007, 10:23 PM
I believe that most of the Chicom M14's have fake flash hiders to comply with the 1989 import ban. And by the time we banned threaded barrels (1994-2004) the Chicom rifles were completely banned from import anyway. So the fake flash hiders should screw right off (with the proper tool).

yoteassasin
03-12-2007, 10:28 PM
all i have to say is WHY????? just buy a spingfield m1a and have the piece of mind that you Dont have a piece of crap , you are supporting american jobs and you are not supporting red china!@!! is one or two hundred worth all that????

chickenfried
03-12-2007, 10:31 PM
I think most if not all of the chinese M14's had the fake flash hiders welded in place. My polytech's fake flash is welded.

chickenfried
03-12-2007, 10:41 PM
Maybe he's chosen a side in the great cast vs. forged debate :p . Since you can't buy factory fresh chinese m14 clones, you don't have to worry about his money going to red china. You can grill him later about his shoes, clothing, furnishings,and electronics via pm.


all i have to say is WHY????? just buy a spingfield m1a and have the piece of mind that you Dont have a piece of crap , you are supporting american jobs and you are not supporting red china!@!! is one or two hundred worth all that????

Mssr. Eleganté
03-13-2007, 12:03 AM
My polytech's fake flash is welded.

Yeah, but remember how you swore that the lid on that jar of peanut butter was welded on? And then there was that jar of spaghetti sauce? :p

colossians323
03-13-2007, 4:44 AM
Maybe he's chosen a side in the great cast vs. forged debate :p . Since you can't buy factory fresh chinese m14 clones, you don't have to worry about his money going to red china. You can grill him later about his shoes, clothing, furnishings,and electronics via pm.


I was kind of thinking the same thing here.;)

Huevos Machaca
03-13-2007, 5:03 AM
I was kind of thinking the same thing here.;)

That's part of it.

I tend to discount most interweb rumors, but I think there's enough there to have some concern when buying a $1500 rifle. I've seen enough comments on forums like Amback from guys that have purchased the Genesco rifles and had problems that I think there's fire near that smoke. I'm less concerned about the cast vs. forged debate than I am about general problems with the rifles. From what I can tell, SAI isn't using milspec or surplus parts any longer as well. And, I've seen enough comments about SAI's warranty that leads me to believe it's a pain to get them to fix your rifle if you have problems. So, if I'm going to have to pay a real M14 armourer to fit a bolt or perform other tuning, I may as well start with a $700 rifle with a forged receiver rather than a $1300-$1500 one.

The contribution to the red army is a moot point. Someone else made their cultural revolution tithe a long time ago when they bought it originally :p

Q
03-13-2007, 6:15 AM
all i have to say is WHY????? just buy a spingfield m1a and have the piece of mind that you Dont have a piece of crap , you are supporting american jobs and you are not supporting red china!@!! is one or two hundred worth all that????

it has a forged receiver and chromelined bore unlike the cast springfields.
i think the springfields have a lifetime warranty.davidsons guarantee.
the norinco poly makes a good budget foundation for a crazyhorse or mk14 sei. lrb would be better.
I would buy a chinese ak if i could.:p
a mk14 mod0 sei is in my future.:cool:

metalhead357
03-13-2007, 6:51 AM
And to clarify for the inept; the "argument" over forged v. cast is the difference of what 325 THOUSDAND (325,000) service life of cast vs. 500-750 THOUSDAND (500,000-750,000).......... I've yet to meet or hear of anyone exceeding the cast limit..............:rolleyes:

I'd love a Norinco one but then again---to make it truly'decent' the parts swapover is a little much IMO........

nic
03-13-2007, 7:12 AM
metalhead357:
And to clarify for the inept; the "argument" over forged v. cast is the difference of what 325 THOUSDAND (325,000) service life of cast vs. 500-750 THOUSDAND (500,000-750,000).......... I've yet to meet or hear of anyone exceeding the cast limit..............

Not trying to be facetious, but is that 325,000 rounds, 325,000 hours, or what?
Seriously, I want to know!

sjpd
03-13-2007, 7:46 AM
If I recall, back in the early 90's there was something about the receivers being 'soft'?? My polytech had a fake/welded flash hider and has some non-firing issues...so I dumped it at a pawn shop in Santa Barbara for like 300 or 400 bucks...I regret it now:(

EricCartmann
03-13-2007, 7:59 AM
Norinco's and Poly's are good stuff. I regret not picking some up when I had a chance.

Pryde
03-13-2007, 8:24 AM
all i have to say is WHY????? just buy a spingfield m1a and have the piece of mind that you Dont have a piece of crap , you are supporting american jobs and you are not supporting red china!@!! is one or two hundred worth all that????

You're kidding right? Springfield? American jobs?
I don't know about their M1As but their XD pistols are made in Croatia and their 1911s are made in Brazil.

Why is it that everyone still thinks all Springfield stuff is US made? Is it because of the name?

mike100
03-13-2007, 8:31 AM
Taiwanese cast (springfield armory Inc) or really hard norinco forged straight outta China. The people that made both all speak the same language.

the old high USGI content springfields are valuable, however. Does springfield produce anything domestically?

Technical Ted
03-13-2007, 8:33 AM
You're kidding right? Springfield? American jobs?
I don't know about their M1As but their XD pistols are made in Croatia and their 1911s are made in Brazil.

Why is it that everyone still thinks all Springfield stuff is US made? Is it because of the name?
I seem to recall that since 2000 Springfield M1A receivers are made by Imbel.

50 Freak
03-13-2007, 9:38 AM
I have a Poly that I lucked out and picked up for $400 about a year ago. I love that rifle.

Why did I pick this over the SA offering. Geee, let me think of about $800-$1000 reasons why....

Plus SA doesn't use chrome lined barrels, nor are their parts milspec. So with a simple GI bolt switch, I have something that I believe is on par if not better than the SA.

Frankly, SA had the market cornered for a long time and as a result they pretty much set the prices of the M14s. I'm glad there are more M14 makers out there now. Hell, if I could afford it, I'd buy a LRB two lugged receiver in a heartbeat.

But for $400 a Poly is a hell of deal...The chinese do make a winner every now an then. (M-14s, 1911s, AKs, SKSs)

azn_wrx
03-13-2007, 9:44 AM
You're kidding right? Springfield? American jobs?
I don't know about their M1As but their XD pistols are made in Croatia and their 1911s are made in Brazil.

Why is it that everyone still thinks all Springfield stuff is US made? Is it because of the name?

You know as well as I do that he wasn't kidding

mltrading
03-13-2007, 10:53 AM
Poly and Norinco are good. They usually come with fake suppressors. The prices are just half of SA M1As'.

Get one while you can (and the price is right).:)


ETA: Just wondering.... any Taiwanese Type-57 rifles/receivers available in the U.S. market? That was what I used in the army.

E Pluribus Unum
03-13-2007, 2:04 PM
My $2.00 worth....

There is no such thing as an M1A from China. M1A is a registered trademark of "Springfield Aromry" Inc.

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles. Is a SA rifle worth twice as much? Probably not. Both rifles shoot about the same and one is half the price. If you can pick up a Chicom for $850 or less I would do it; any more than that I would spring for the SA.

EricCartmann
03-13-2007, 2:42 PM
My $2.00 worth....

There is no such thing as an M1A from China. M1A is a registered trademark of "Springfield Aromry" Inc.

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles. Is a SA rifle worth twice as much? Probably not. Both rifles shoot about the same and one is half the price. If you can pick up a Chicom for $850 or less I would do it; any more than that I would spring for the SA.

It is kind of implied when you say "M1A's" it includes M14Ss, M14s, M1As, etc... anyways you don't think Springfield is out of spec? Buy a Smith, or ARMS, scope mount and see how out of spec your M1A is as it won't even mount.

Norinco M14's are known to have good oprods, barrel, and recievers. Only bad thing I have heard about Norinco's is their "soft bolts" but I don't know how true this is because I have never personally met a disatisfied Norinco owner. I have seen people build quatlity rifles our of Norinco receivers. Norinco receivers are sought after, SA's are not. The current Springfield M1A's are so out of spec it's not even funny.

Pryde
03-13-2007, 3:33 PM
My $2.00 worth....

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.


So why is it then that most major reputable M14 smiths in the country will gladly work on (and even recommend) a "out of spec" Chinese receiver?

50 Freak
03-13-2007, 3:52 PM
Originally Posted by E Pluribus Unum
My $2.00 worth....

There is no such thing as an M1A from China. M1A is a registered trademark of "Springfield Aromry" Inc.

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles. Is a SA rifle worth twice as much? Probably not. Both rifles shoot about the same and one is half the price. If you can pick up a Chicom for $850 or less I would do it; any more than that I would spring for the SA.

Buddy, I'm in the opinion that you are wrong. The Chinese receivers are more in spec that the SA ones are. That is why they are sought out for building true mil spec M14's. The whole "heat treated" issue was brought up by Fulton (who for a hefty fee, will correct this issue for you....take that with a grain of salt). A simple bolt change is cheap insurance for most but I have yet to hear of one Chinese M14 that has blown up due to faulty heat treatment.

I do agree with the bolt though. The earlier Chinese M14's came with a weak bolt, though I believe that has been remedied (not that it affect us here in the US). But I think the ones that Marstar is currently selling no longer has the bolt problems.

EricCartmann
03-13-2007, 4:11 PM
I wonder why people go through so much effort getting USGI stuff and Sage stock built around their Norinco receivers if they are such junk???



quote from a M14-forum-regular:

My favorite shooter is my MK14 SEI built on a heel stamped Norinco receiver. It has an 18.0" chrome lined barrel.

It is right at home in all but one of my SAGE stocks and it has spent time in a prototype TROY MCS.

You can find ChiCom rifles in the states - act fast, the prices keep jumping.

Click here for pictures (http://ebrsopmods.proboards100.com/index.cgi?board=sageebrm14conversions&action=display&thread=1167168405)

metalhead357
03-13-2007, 6:52 PM
metalhead357:


Not trying to be facetious, but is that 325,000 rounds, 325,000 hours, or what?
Seriously, I want to know!



Yes...That is the expected round-count life of the recievers IIRC.....

Astig Boy
03-13-2007, 6:53 PM
My $2.00 worth....

There is no such thing as an M1A from China. M1A is a registered trademark of "Springfield Aromry" Inc.

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles. Is a SA rifle worth twice as much? Probably not. Both rifles shoot about the same and one is half the price. If you can pick up a Chicom for $850 or less I would do it; any more than that I would spring for the SA.

If you dont know anything about Chinese M14s, then you need to keep your 2cents out of the thread. Go on the M14forums and do your research. Aside from LRB and Smith receivers, the Noronico/Polytechs are the next best thing...they are the closest to USGI Spec then Armscorp, Entreprise, Fulton Armory, SAI, etc...

metalhead357
03-13-2007, 6:54 PM
Buddy, I'm in the opinion that you are wrong. The Chinese receivers are more in spec that the SA ones are. That is why they are sought out for building true mil spec M14's. The whole "heat treated" issue was brought up by Fulton (who for a hefty fee, will correct this issue for you). I have yet to hear of one Chinese M14 that has blown up do to the faulty heat treatment.

I do agree with the bolt though. The earlier Chinese M14's came with a weak bolt, though I believe that has been remedied (not that it affect us here in the US). But I think the ones that Marstar is currently selling no longer has the bolt problems.

I gotta agree~ sans the weak bolt no longer being a problem; I've never heard anything...anything saying they've overcome that; YMMV

chickenfried
03-13-2007, 7:07 PM
I've also heard the newer chicoms don't have the bolt problems. But that doesn't matter for us Americans. But for any canadians on here.....
http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/M-14S.shtm

vf111
03-13-2007, 7:43 PM
http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/

He is The Man when it comes to M14 clones and many of your questions can be answered by his webpage or via M14forum.com. Good luck.

Sailormilan2
03-13-2007, 8:16 PM
Fultons says that the Polys/Norincos are the closest things to true GI spec receivers on the market today.
I have a $1500 M1A Loaded and a $950 Poly with GI bolt conversion. The M1A usually won't finish a 20 rd mag of South African surplus or my reloads with out a Failure To Extract. It has even FTE'd with some Radway Green, supposedly some of the best stuff out there. The Poly eats EVERYTHING.
Springfield won't touch the M1A under warrenty unless it won't handle NATO Spec ammo or Commercial ammo. I've already called them, and that was their reply.:mad: One would think that a $1500 rifle would be able to shoot anything.

EricCartmann
03-13-2007, 8:45 PM
Norinco makes some good stuff. I got an Ithaca 37 clone made by Norinco, this thing is all metal and heavy! Rifled sites, sling loops, and heat shield. Best $180 OTD I ever spent. I campare this thing to a Remi Police.

Next time I see a Poly or Norinco M14 for $700 or less you better believe I am going to pick it up!

http://www.snsfirearms.com/resources/NorM37.jpg

E Pluribus Unum
03-14-2007, 2:16 AM
If you dont know anything about Chinese M14s, then you need to keep your 2cents out of the thread. Go on the M14forums and do your research. Aside from LRB and Smith receivers, the Noronico/Polytechs are the next best thing...they are the closest to USGI Spec then Armscorp, Entreprise, Fulton Armory, SAI, etc...

We are not talking about RECEIVERS... we are talking about RIFLES. Yes, if you replace EVERYTHING but the receiver you will have a superior rifle but then you have a lot more money invested. The comparison is between a bone stock M14S and a M1A.

Sailormilan2
03-14-2007, 5:56 AM
The only things that possibly, and the word here is "possibly", might need changing would be the bolt, hammer, trigger, and rear sight assembly. Some of the early bolts were soft, but generally headspace was close to NATO max. Safe to shoot, but not so great for reloading. But, GI bolts are available at a not unreasonable price. Hammers and trigger, again may be soft, but those are easily replaceble. An added plus, Garand hammers and triggers can be used. So, those are relatively minor expense. Same for the rear sight.
Barrels are chrome lined, something Springfield does not have anymore. If you want a chrome lined barrel for added life, you have to go to an expensive aftermarket barrel. Which seems to be running about $300 for just the barrel(Fulton's price).
The gas piston on a Poly/Norinco is not Stainless Steel, but unless you are using corrosive primers, that isn't much of an issue.
So, if you can locate a Poly/Norinco for $700 - $800, added $200 - $250 in parts, and you have a GI spec reciever, with chrome lined barrel, and saved a bundle over a possibly questionable Springfield M1A.
In the past 5 months, I have managed to pick up 2 Polys, that already have the GI bolt conversion, triggers and hammer already swapped out, for under $950. The last one I located for a friend came with a very nice GI Brich stock, and he got it for about $850.
When the boys and I go shooting, the Poly goes with it, and the Springer has become a Safe Queen and stays home. We know the Poly is going the work, we have lost all faith in the M1A. I will probably be swapping the barrel out here in a couple of months, maybe it will work better with a new barrel.

gn3hz3ku1*
03-14-2007, 8:17 AM
just because its made in china does not make it a commie rifle :) some of us just dont have the money to get a SA one

FatKatMatt
03-14-2007, 8:00 PM
Is $900 NIB a good price for a Polytech? I was looking at some auction sights and saw it for sale.

Where could I send off a Chinese M14 for a G.I. bolt conversion, and what is a ballpark cost? I looked on Fulton's website and they said that you would have to replace the barrel as well as the bolt.

Sailormilan2
03-14-2007, 9:28 PM
Replacing the barrel is usually not necessary. Often times, just replacing the bolt is sufficient. However, the lug cutout in the Chinese receivers is slightly smaller than the USGI receives, so the front of the bolt lugs may need to be thinned slightly.
You might try Warbird for a conversion.

http://warbirdscustomguns.com/

50 Freak
03-15-2007, 8:24 AM
To tell you the truth, take some sand paper and SLOWLY take off some of the metal on the bolt till the bolt drops down into the receiver properly.

That's what I did to my GI bolt/Poly gun. Hundreds of rounds later and no problems. Don't replace the chinese barrel. They are pretty damn good. Not to mention chromed lined (whereas current Springfield barrels are not).

Astig Boy
03-15-2007, 9:12 AM
We are not talking about RECEIVERS... we are talking about RIFLES. Yes, if you replace EVERYTHING but the receiver you will have a superior rifle but then you have a lot more money invested. The comparison is between a bone stock M14S and a M1A.

And Im not just talking receivers!!! Chinese barrels and oprods are BETTER then any commercial grade SAI part! How about them recalled bolts from SAI? As mentioned above by Sailormilan2; bolt, hammer, trigger, and rear sight assembly are the only issue….everything else is well forged and superior to any commercial cast part SAI has to offer. Ive swapped out all those parts for USGI, and I am still under $900 for a M14…and I would definitely say mine is on par or better then any commercial grade +$1,200 M1A.

Who are you to give out advice on Chinese M14s? Do you own one? That’s like a virgin giving out sex tips.

double_action
03-15-2007, 9:48 AM
I love my Poly. Warbird did the conversion, it has a TRW bolt, all TRW trigger group, and USGI rear sight, stock and a Sparrowhawk dummy selector.

It cost me, with the gun, USGI parts and conversion about $1000.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g276/double_ation/Poly_done_Small_Blue.jpg



Plus this thread needed some pictures . . . .

30Cal
03-15-2007, 10:01 AM
Some of you guys talk about the mil-spec as if it was an engineering drawing with dimensions and such.

The drawing package is simply a reference in the mil-spec document. The mil-spec calls out the testing requirements to ensure that the product is built-to-print. None of the manufacturers today use the M14 mil-spec because you wouldn't be able to pay for it.

Ty

Astig Boy
03-15-2007, 11:13 AM
Some of you guys talk about the mil-spec as if it was an engineering drawing with dimensions and such.

The drawing package is simply a reference in the mil-spec document. The mil-spec calls out the testing requirements to ensure that the product is built-to-print. None of the manufacturers today use the M14 mil-spec because you wouldn't be able to pay for it.

Ty

Mil-Spec is the precise measurements and dimensions of a unit that fall into US Government Standards(ie receiver, mounts, pistons,etc...) Hardness and life span is just another standard as well. If the Government did not place such a standard on measurements then parts from several different manufactures(H&R, TRW, SA, WIN) would not match up or be compatible with one another. As with any thing, a bue-print is made to the precise exact measurement...that blue-print was then stamped and approved by the US Government. If anything falls out of tolerance by an amount set by that Government Standard, it falls short of Military Specification(Mil-Spec) and is rejected.

Who makes USGI parts that abide by Government Standards of precise measurements today?... Smith Ent, KAC, and ARMS. When one of their mounts does not fit on a M1A, ask yourself why? They match up pretty well on a Chinese receiver.

E Pluribus Unum
03-15-2007, 1:11 PM
Who are you to give out advice on Chinese M14s? Do you own one? That’s like a virgin giving out sex tips.

Yes, I have owned them in the past. I had a nice Norinco until about 3 years ago. It was a beautiful gun. When the firing pin broke I had to pay to replace it and my rifle was down for two weeks while I got it in. I have owned 3 M14 style rifles; a Norinco and two Springfield Armory commercial units.

I picked up the Norinco for $600 in 1997.
I then purchased a Springfield Armory standard M1A in March 2001 for $1200.
I then purchased a Springfield Armory Bush rifle in 2003 for $1400.00.

I have been an admirer of the M14/M1A rifle for over 13 years. I have shot many rounds out of the three rifles. I recently fell on hard times and could not justify going on public assistance while having a $5000 gun collection.

As a result I was forced to sell off a few of my rifles and shotguns. I limited myself to just one M14 style rifle and chose to keep my Springfield M1A Standard. It was the most accurate out of the box.

The cast vs. forged debate is very moot. Some people say that forged is so much better and in theory it may be. I know that my commercial M1A has shot flawlessly for six years now. I know that if I EVER have a problem with it I can ship it back to SA and they will fix it free of charge; that peace of mind cannot be purchased from Norinco or Polytech.

Re-read my post; I advised that if money is an issue, purchase the Chinese rifle. I owned one, I loved it then and I love them now. To me they are all the same but to spread the false information that the Chinese product is so much better than the American product because its forged is flawed. The cast commercial products are very reliable; I would go as far to say that it is more reliable than the average AR that everyone cherishes.

Any M14 variant is going to be reliable and accurate; the cast vs. forged debate is irrelevant.

If one wants to save money and buy a Chinese M14 then great; some people will choose to purchase the American Product with a lifetime warranty.

30Cal
03-15-2007, 1:49 PM
You can pull the M14 mil spec from here. It's all functional tests, acceptance tests, visual inspections, etc. The meat of the mil spec starts with section 4 which lays out test requirements. This is how quality is assured. This is the part that none of the commercial rifles get.
http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/

There aren't mil specs for individual piece parts (the stock I think has one).

Astig Boy
03-15-2007, 4:11 PM
Yes, I have owned them in the past. I had a nice Norinco until about 3 years ago. It was a beautiful gun. When the firing pin broke I had to pay to replace it and my rifle was down for two weeks while I got it in. I have owned 3 M14 style rifles; a Norinco and two Springfield Armory commercial units.

I picked up the Norinco for $600 in 1997.
I then purchased a Springfield Armory standard M1A in March 2001 for $1200.
I then purchased a Springfield Armory Bush rifle in 2003 for $1400.00.

I have been an admirer of the M14/M1A rifle for over 13 years. I have shot many rounds out of the three rifles. I recently fell on hard times and could not justify going on public assistance while having a $5000 gun collection.

As a result I was forced to sell off a few of my rifles and shotguns. I limited myself to just one M14 style rifle and chose to keep my Springfield M1A Standard. It was the most accurate out of the box.

The cast vs. forged debate is very moot. Some people say that forged is so much better and in theory it may be. I know that my commercial M1A has shot flawlessly for six years now. I know that if I EVER have a problem with it I can ship it back to SA and they will fix it free of charge; that peace of mind cannot be purchased from Norinco or Polytech.

Re-read my post; I advised that if money is an issue, purchase the Chinese rifle. I owned one, I loved it then and I love them now. To me they are all the same but to spread the false information that the Chinese product is so much better than the American product because its forged is flawed. The cast commercial products are very reliable; I would go as far to say that it is more reliable than the average AR that everyone cherishes.

Any M14 variant is going to be reliable and accurate; the cast vs. forged debate is irrelevant.

If one wants to save money and buy a Chinese M14 then great; some people will choose to purchase the American Product with a lifetime warranty.

Look, no way am I saying a M1A is a POS. The cast parts will perform flawlessly for any civilian use. The issue is you posting a Chinese M14 is a very inferior rifle and has very poor forging. Ok so you have owned one. Back when I first got my rifle, the vote on the M14forums was all the parts on the Chinese M14s were bad and that included the receiver. But times and knowledge have changed it wassint discovered but 2 years ago that ALL forged parts on a Norinco are STOUT(aside from bolt, hammer, sights, as mentioned before.) You may have not read up on these rifles to date, please do. And you will find that everyone on the M14forums all agree the Chinese M14S is a damn fine rifle. Due to the tarnish reputation the Chinese rifles had for the past 10 years kept the price down, and now everyone there is scooping one up now that the truth is out. The whole debate about the Chinese socalled "soft" receivers is all hog-wash...I have yet to hear or read a thread where the Chinese receiver failed.

A lot of M14 owners like to have work done on their rifle regardless if it shoots straight or reliably, most never plan to keep their rifle bone stock to begin with and modify them to their liking, much like a 1911...so any type of warranty is meaningless.

American Product??? As mentioned on the first page of this thread, SAI's XDs are made in Croatia, their 1911s are made in Brazil, and those cast parts on your M1A come from Taiwan! LOL What will you do now? Try and be all American and swap all your parts out for USGI and lose your warranty? Or keep the rifle as is with parts from a country associated with RED China.

E Pluribus Unum
03-15-2007, 9:39 PM
Look, no way am I saying a M1A is a POS. The cast parts will perform flawlessly for any civilian use.

Only for civilian use huh? I would put my cast parts up against any military-issued M16 or variant thereof. You are missing my whole point. Most engines have cast pistons in them and they take far much more abuse than a firearm. If the casting is done correctly the rifle is just as reliable as a forged part.

The issue is you posting a Chinese M14 is a very inferior rifle and has very poor forging.

Please quote my post where I use those words "very inferior rifle" and "very poor forging". I never said anything like that. To say that forged is better than cast is like saying Japanese is better than Korean. One has to judge each individual rifle for its own merits.


times and knowledge have changed it wassint discovered but 2 years ago that ALL forged parts on a Norinco are STOUT(aside from bolt, hammer, sights, as mentioned before.)

That is like saying "All parts in my car are fine except for the engine, transmission and the windshield". You mentioned some of the most important pieces of the gun. I would take my commercial SA bolt and hammer over the Chinese version. These things are integral to the rifle going bang each and every time I pull the trigger. I never said that the Chinese rifles are not good weapons. In their stock configuration I would say the commercial M1A is better.

You may have not read up on these rifles to date, please do.
There is the difference. I do not go by what I read on the internet; I have owned and shot both extensively over a several year period and have gained true knowledge on the subject rather than reading the "M14 Forums". I encourage you to purchase a commercial M1A and shoot it for many years before you denounce it as inferior.

And you will find that everyone on the M14forums all agree the Chinese M14S is a damn fine rifle.
Again, I never said they were not. I only inferred that the "cast" rifles were not inferior to the forged Chinese rifles.


A lot of M14 owners like to have work done on their rifle regardless if it shoots straight or reliably, most never plan to keep their rifle bone stock to begin with and modify them to their liking, much like a 1911...so any type of warranty is meaningless.

Again, not true. All parts purchased from SA are still under warranty. If one puts a new bolt in and the barrel fails it’s still covered under warranty.


American Product??? As mentioned on the first page of this thread, SAI's XDs are made in Croatia, their 1911s are made in Brazil, and those cast parts on your M1A come from Taiwan!
The receivers may be cast there but the rifle is assembled and sold from America; it is an American product benefiting an American company.

It sounds like you are in love with your rifle and that is fine. I will concede that a Chinese M14 with a replacement hammer, bolt, and sights would be just as good or better than the commercially produced M1A. I never said that not to be the case. I was comparing an out of the box Chinese M14 and an out of the box SA M1A. In that situation I stand by my original statement:

The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec.
This is a true statement; I will concede that this is not really an issue as most all civilian versions are out of milspec.

The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality.
This again is a true statement. The Chinese bolts are of inferior quality even by your own admission.

Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Again a true statement. I would rather have a SA cast bolt/hammer than a stock Chinese bolt.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles.

This is a true statement. Out of the box (overall) the M1A is better quality than the Chinese rifle.

Is a SA rifle worth twice as much? Probably not. Both rifles shoot about the same and one is half the price.
This is a plus for the Chinese rifle. Right here I am saying that the Chinese rifle is a better deal.

If you can pick up a Chicom for $850 or less I would do it; any more than that I would spring for the SA.
Again saying to buy the Chinese rifle unless it is nearly the cost of a M1A. All else being equal I would advise purchasing the M1A. After all what is better? A stock M1A or a stock Chicom? I would contend that there is very little difference anyway. I think you are a little bit too sensitive and you perceived me as attacking your Chinese rifle; I was not sir.

I also wonder about your "virgin giving sex tips" comment. If you have never owned a Springfield Armory M1A and you are advocating the purchase of a Chinese rifle over that commercial M1A because of something you read on M14forums it is my contention sir that you are the virgin giving sex tips, not I.

Astig Boy
03-16-2007, 9:32 AM
Only for civilian use huh? I would put my cast parts up against any military-issued M16 or variant thereof. You are missing my whole point. Most engines have cast pistons in them and they take far much more abuse than a firearm. If the casting is done correctly the rifle is just as reliable as a forged part.

You honestly think a rifle with commercial cast parts will stand up to a Military rifle? Literally thousands of rounds in battle? I really dont think so. Now your comparing cast engine parts to forged engine parts??? LOL Dude, now your definitely way out of your territory here. I own a turbocharged vehicle and have built turbocharged engines... cast parts will never with stand the torture a turbocharged engine demands! Turbocharged engine have to have forged pistons. Sure cast parts will work, only if you baby it and dont drive in boost, but once you put the engine through its paces, those cast parts will be warping and metaling before you reach 80. Spare me the details...cast vs forged is a totally different sport when it comes to firearm parts and engine parts. Dont ever fool yourself into thinking your cast pistons are just the same as forged pistons.

Please quote my post where I use those words "very inferior rifle" and "very poor forging". I never said anything like that. To say that forged is better than cast is like saying Japanese is better than Korean. One has to judge each individual rifle for its own merits.

I am tired of these ignorant people pointing out cast vs. forged.... The Chicom/Polytech receivers are often out of spec. The bolts are often not headspaced correctly; they are inferior in quality. Just because the metal was forged does not mean that it is better quality than a cast part. Forged parts have the capability of being superior; that does not make it so.

Springfield Armory rifles are of superior overall quality than the chicom/polytech rifles.

Look, even EricCartmann took your post as, not an attack, but an ignorant post. You did not say "inferior", but you did use the word "SUPERIOR", which means bar none leaps and bounds better then an chicom/polytech...which we feel is not.


That is like saying "All parts in my car are fine except for the engine, transmission and the windshield". You mentioned some of the most important pieces of the gun. I would take my commercial SA bolt and hammer over the Chinese version. These things are integral to the rifle going bang each and every time I pull the trigger. I never said that the Chinese rifles are not good weapons. In their stock configuration I would say the commercial M1A is better.


Agree, 100%. But thats all you had to say was the rifle is better. I know we are just saying words here, but people will take every single word you type to heart when you talk about their pride and joy.

There is the difference. I do not go by what I read on the internet; I have owned and shot both extensively over a several year period and have gained true knowledge on the subject rather than reading the "M14 Forums". I encourage you to purchase a commercial M1A and shoot it for many years before you denounce it as inferior.

The internet is the greatest source of information to date! Why wouldnt you want to gain knowledge and read the experiences of other owners??? Now your saying I said the M1A is inferior!?!? When the hell did I say that? Im debating my rifle, never said anything about the M1A being inferior!

Again, not true. All parts purchased from SA are still under warranty. If one puts a new bolt in and the barrel fails it’s still covered under warranty.

Just so you know, its not SA. SA is the original company ran by the DOD and shut down. SAI is the new company that just uses their name for a marketing scheme, and it works. Have you ever had to send anything back to SAI? If you changed all the parts on your rifle would it still be under warranty? Nope. Tell them you changed the bolt and see what happens.

The receivers may be cast there but the rifle is assembled and sold from America; it is an American product benefiting an American company.

No, your now supporting both companys, the one in America and Taiwan. Since you have a problem buying something from China, whats the big difference if your company supports something associated with China? The funds used to buy my Chinese rifle now supports that American company that ordered it and those American workers inside...whats the difference? Your the one that brought up buying "All American". As if everything you buy in America supports only Americans. Im just saying, I dont have a problem buying anything here in the States.

All else being equal I would advise purchasing the M1A. After all what is better? A stock M1A or a stock Chicom? I would contend that there is very little difference anyway.

All an opinion and what the buyer has intentions on. I dont have a problem with what anyone buys. I just feel people should do a little more research...as most people who just get in to the M14 game buy in to the whole SAI being an "original" company. Stock for stock, the M1A is a better rifle...but as you mentioned, twice the price is not going to fly with some people. Like I mentioned, most never plan to stay stock...which is where I find the Chinese rifles to be a better buy, regardless if it has a warranty or not...its going to be worked on anyways. It is very much like buying a cheapy SAI 1911 and tearing in to it leaving nothing but the original frame and slide voiding any type of warranty.

I also wonder about your "virgin giving sex tips" comment. If you have never owned a Springfield Armory M1A and you are advocating the purchase of a Chinese rifle over that commercial M1A because of something you read on M14forums it is my contention sir that you are the virgin giving sex tips, not I.

Well, now that you ask, I have owned 3 M14s. And one WAS a SAI Loaded, the other is not a chinese rifle or a SAI either. And I sold the SAI to purchase a LRB rifle.

mltrading
03-16-2007, 9:37 AM
Ahhhh.....

No matter what kind of receiver/parts are you using, it is a good rifle as long as it works properly.

Stop talking and go shooting!!!:D

E Pluribus Unum
03-16-2007, 2:17 PM
You honestly think a rifle with commercial cast parts will stand up to a Military rifle? Literally thousands of rounds in battle? I really dont think so. Now your comparing cast engine parts to forged engine parts??? LOL Dude, now your definitely way out of your territory here.

How old are you? You sound like you can't be more than 20 years old. Are you always so arrogant?

I never said that forged engine parts are not better, I know they are. For engines that are stock (not supercharged) cast parts work fine. My statement was that engines take more abuse than guns do and they use cast parts in engines. This statement is true.

I am not a spring chicken. I am 30 years old, I have owned scores of rifles shot thousands of rounds of ammunition. I have built a 10 second race car that I bracket raced at Fomoso raceway for a few years I have a 13 second Mustang now and a Tiberon. I have built several motors and experienced a lot of things and not ONCE did I talk condescending to you.

You obviously know everything and my words are wasted on you. I will concede defeat and let you feel better than you won because I am done arguing with someone who does not listen.

Good day.

metalhead357
03-16-2007, 7:17 PM
Ahhhh.....

No matter what kind of receiver/parts are you using, it is a good rifle as long as it works properly.

Stop talking and go shooting!!!:D


Best advice I've heard ALLLLLLLLLLLL might:D Lest I might add.... a rifle is only as good as its operator too;)

chickenfried
03-16-2007, 7:30 PM
Allz I knowz iz #1 is MKS everything else is just battling fo second place.

NRAhighpowershooter
03-16-2007, 8:03 PM
Allz I knowz iz #1 is MKS everything else is just battling fo second place.

Oh GOD!! Let's not start on that MKS fiasco!!!!! :eek:

30Cal
03-16-2007, 8:35 PM
Oh GOD!! Let's not start on that MKS fiasco!!!!! :eek:

Just when you though that one was dead and buried...

Ty

metalhead357
03-16-2007, 8:40 PM
Just when you though that one was dead and buried...

Ty


Yeah, but ya' gotta admit.....NO one brings ups the frenchie goats:eek:

Sailormilan2
03-17-2007, 6:36 AM
Interchangeability of Chinese and USGI M14 Parts
Feed back is appreciated. TIA From the 03/17/07 draft of the Third Edition of M14 Rifle History and Development:

"USGI and commercial manufacture parts are theoretically interchangeable but occasionally the fit is too tight or too loose between such parts. Generally, USGI and commercially manufactured parts are interchangeable with their Chinese counterparts but there are some exceptions.

Barrel - Chinese barrels have metric dimension barrel shank, gas cylinder lock and suppressor nut threads. However, the Chinese barrel shank thread size is very close to the American made receiver barrel ring thread size. Chinese M14barrels will usually, but not always, thread into an American made M14 type receiver without any trouble. Nonetheless, barrel installation and headspacing should be performed by a reputable M14 gunsmith. A USGI gas cylinder lock will not fit on a Chinese barrel because of the differing thread sizes. Similarly, the Chinese gas cylinder lock will not fit on a USGI or U. S. commercial manufacture M14 type barrel.

Chinese flash suppressor nut-to-USGI barrel - The Chinese flash suppressor nut will go on without resisting but at a slightly downward angle due to the slight difference in threads.

USGI flash suppressor nut-to-Chinese barrel - The USGI and Chinese flash suppressor nuts are interchangeable on the Chinese barrel.

Bolt - For reasons unknown to Smith Enterprise, Inc., or anyone else the author has contacted, the Chinese did not use equivalent AISI 8620 alloy steel for their bolts as per the USGI drawing for their bolts but elected to make them out of equivalent AISI 4135 alloy steel. Chinese bolts have a surface hardness of 40 to 47 HRC which is too soft. This applies to Chinese bolts exported to the United States prior to September 13, 1994. If the bolts are heat treated to improve the hardness, the hardness increases all the way through the bolt instead of just at the surface. Hardening a Chinese bolt will add only a little more service life to the bolt to the item. In the long term, however, hardening a Chinese bolt is still not desirable. This is because increasing the core hardness of the bolt decreases the core toughness. Another significant problem plagues Chinese bolts. Besides not being made of a material suitable for long term use, the locking lugs are too narrow. Thus, American and Chinese bolts are not interchangeable. Converting a U. S. imported Chinese M14 type rifle to accept an American made bolt should be performed by an experienced M14 gunsmith.

These problems may or may not continue to affect Chinese M14 bolts which were more recently exported. For example, three Norinco M305 rifle bolts shipped to Canada in 2003 were tested for surface hardness. The results ranged from a minimum of 45 HRC to 48.5 HRC, with the average at 47 HRC. More detailed information on the bolt material or the core hardness of these 2003 vintage bolts is presently unavailable.

Gas System - Chinese gas cylinders and gas cylinder plugs are made of molybdenum-chromium alloy steel and gas pistons are chromium plated. Chinese and American gas cylinder plugs are not interchangeable because the Chinese sight parts have metric threads. The Chinese gas piston outside diameter and the gas cylinder inside diameter are slightly larger than USGI gas piston and gas cylinder drawing specifications. A USGI gas piston may be too narrow to function properly inside a Chinese gas cylinder. The inside diameter of a Chinese operating rod spring is about 0.010 " smaller than a USGI spring. Some National Match operating rod spring guides will not fit inside Chinese operating rod springs because the interior diameter is too small.

Operating Rod - Three kinds of operating rods have been identified on Chinese semi-automatic M14 type rifles. One kind has no notch at all for the connector assembly. Since this version cannot be used with a connector assembly, it is likely post-1978 production. Another has an almost straight angle cut to the notch, which does not closely match the USGI connector’s contours. These operating rods have numbers engraved on them. The notch may have been machined away after original manufacture. The third version of Chinese operating rod has a connector notch very similar to the USGI model, but with a slightly more circular shape. The third version was made in 1965 as part of the production of 100,000 complete rifles. In all other important dimensions, the three types of Chinese operating rods are the same. Chinese operating rods are forged and are as hard as USGI operating rods.

Rear Sight Assembly - Chinese and American rear sight knobs and bases are not interchangeable because the Chinese sight parts have metric threads. However, a complete Chinese manufacture rear sight assembly will fit on an American made receiver and vice versa.

Miscellaneous - USGI stocks require some work to fit properly with Chinese rifles. Chinese M14 firing pins are completely chromium plated. Chinese connector locks were standard length in 1965 production M14 rifles but shortened to sit flush with the receiver in post-1978 production rifles. Chinese hammers and triggers are sometimes a little soft, but this can be corrected with appropriate nitrocarburizing treatment.

Chinese butt plates, flash suppressors, rear sight bases, and trigger housings are castings. Chinese butt plates and butt plate flappers are both made of steel. The flapper-to-butt plate joint is built up by welding then ground flat. Two types of Chinese M14 butt plate flappers have been observed: Type 1) the flapper has two raised indentations on the right side of the hinge and Type 2) the flapper has one hole on the left side of the hinge as the muzzle is pointed down range.

Chinese Parts Identification

Chinese M14 parts differ in their markings from U. S. parts as follows:

Table 27: Chinese M14 Rifle Part Markings

Chinese Rifle Part / Identifying Marks

barrel / no markings except for KFS and CAI imported Poly Technologies and some CAI imported Norinco rifles
bolt / may have numbers electro-penciled on the top or bottom
flash suppressor / electro-penciled number
hammer / no markings
hand guard / silver painted bottom that may have the letters DT and a number or a number by itself
operating rod / may have electro-penciled numbers and the connector notch shape is different from USGI design
trigger housing / five or six digit number
windage knob / counterfeit W C E"

Originally posted by "Different", aka Lee Emerson, author of M14 RIFLE HISTORY AND DEVELOPEMENT.
http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/

jerryb78
03-17-2007, 11:25 AM
[QUOTE=Astig Boy;537920]You honestly think a rifle with commercial cast parts will stand up to a Military rifle? Literally thousands of rounds in battle? I really dont think so. Now your comparing cast engine parts to forged engine parts??? LOL Dude, now your definitely way out of your territory here. I own a turbocharged vehicle and have built turbocharged engines... cast parts will never with stand the torture a turbocharged engine demands! Turbocharged engine have to have forged pistons. Sure cast parts will work, only if you baby it and dont drive in boost, but once you put the engine through its paces, those cast parts will be warping and metaling before you reach 80. Spare me the details...cast vs forged is a totally different sport when it comes to firearm parts and engine parts. Dont ever fool yourself into thinking your cast pistons are just the same as forged pistons.
QUOTE]

off topic here.--sorry bubba, you are way out of you league here. cast piston work fine for turbo and supercharge engine. it all on how you design and built the system. i can run 5-6 psi and up to 8 psi of boost all day. it all about the design.---
next time don't try to act smart and pretend you know everything. guys that come here and are senior member know more than you do. they been around the block a few time. best thing for you to do is pipe down and listen (read) , then you come to your own conclusion. we all interpret information differently and think differently. that is what make us a unique individual. if you were that type that follow any mob that come along and/or easily brain wash. Than not even the big man in the sky can save our children or the next generation. sorry about this guys, but some time, it just tick me off when a rookie preten to know it all.

Astig Boy
03-17-2007, 2:43 PM
off topic here.--sorry bubba, you are way out of you league here. cast piston work fine for turbo and supercharge engine. it all on how you design and built the system. i can run 5-6 psi and up to 8 psi of boost all day. it all about the design.---
next time don't try to act smart and pretend you know everything. guys that come here and are senior member know more than you do. they been around the block a few time. best thing for you to do is pipe down and listen (read) , then you come to your own conclusion. we all interpret information differently and think differently. that is what make us a unique individual. if you were that type that follow any mob that come along and/or easily brain wash. Than not even the big man in the sky can save our children or the next generation. sorry about this guys, but some time, it just tick me off when a rookie preten to know it all.

Rookie? Do you know me? Just cause I dont have a million posts doesnt mean I was born yesterday. Sorry if I have a life outside calguns. :rolleyes: FYI, I am older then E Pluribus Unum. And Ive been in to firearms since the late 80s...so whos the newb here?

Theres nothing wrong with going with what everyone, including experts and professionals, go with. Why go against the grain?...thats just a waste of time and money...and in the end you get the same conclusion. This isnt 1993..get with the times, everything is just a click away.

Sure you can run somewhat safely with cast pistons on and force inducted car...but you will never be at full potential. 8-10 psi...that all depends on the set up. A .58 A/R Garrett Turbo at 10 psi is sure as hell not the same as a .90 A/R Garrett Turbo at 10psi. Try running a large T88 at 10psi on cast pistons. 5-8 psi isnt jack for power...Ive run 30psi on my engines. My daily runs 18psi all day on 91oct...try that in your vehicle. Your talking about taking a NA car and "trying" to sqeek by. All turbocharged cars from all manufactures run forged internals. Ask your self why you cheapy. Do yourself a favor and build a engine the right way, instead of going half ***.

E Pluribus Unum
03-17-2007, 3:01 PM
FYI, I am older then E Pluribus Unum. And Ive been in to firearms since the late 80s...so whos the newb here?


Youth is a very good excuse for ignorance and arrogance. What is yours?

Astig Boy
03-17-2007, 4:50 PM
Youth is a very good excuse for ignorance and arrogance. What is yours?



I have all I had to say to you. That is all.

DirtySanchez
03-22-2007, 12:48 PM
So where would someone looking for a Norinco or ploy M14 rifle look if said person wanted to buy one?:confused:

DJDace
03-22-2007, 2:14 PM
All I know is that one day I dream of having an M14 Rifle with a JAE-100 Stock as my .308 rifle. After looking at all the numbers, it came to me that I could buy my JAE-100 here in the States, then when I move back to Canada I can buy a Norinco made M14 and put the stock on that for less than the TOTAL price of getting a SA M1A Standard here in California.

50 Freak
03-22-2007, 2:18 PM
Yeah, the Poly M14's run about $750-800 nowadays....

Should have bought them when they were $299.

DirtySanchez
03-23-2007, 8:24 AM
Yeah, the Poly M14's run about $750-800 nowadays....

Should have bought them when they were $299.

Any links to someone that sells them?

Astig Boy
03-23-2007, 11:17 AM
So where would someone looking for a Norinco or ploy M14 rifle look if said person wanted to buy one?:confused:


Do searchs on gunbroker. polytech, norinco, m14s
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=68524978

Get on http://www.m14firinglineforum.com/upload/
There are always Polytech/Norincos there forsale in the PX. But you have to register to get in to and view the PX section.

DirtySanchez
03-23-2007, 11:25 AM
cool thanks

50 Freak
03-23-2007, 4:43 PM
Hey Dirty...

Sent you a PM.

EricCartmann
03-23-2007, 6:34 PM
I did not read this entire thread.. sorry if I repeated some stuff if it was already mentioned. If it was then just consider this a +1 post.

Before I got really into M14's I use to think the Poly's and Norinco's were junk. I had many chances to buy them at $500-$600 but passed. These days I can't seem to find them cheaper than $900 (last I checked in NH, CA, and NV). I know a guy in NH that had a bunch of them that he was willing to get rid of for $600.. but I don't have his contact info, I just know where he hangs out and my next trip out there I am going to try my best to track this guy down. As I want to build a quality M14 around a forged Norinco receiver.

A Springer is so far from Milspec it is not even funny. Not only are they not milspec but there is no consistency in the way they are put together. I never believed it when guys said this until I had to work with my own Springfield M1A. Say if you want those nice milspec chrome line barrels that Smith Enterprise has... it will not work with a Springfield Reciever. But will have no problems working with Norinco's. Also Springer barrels are not even chrome lined! How can you pay $1600 for a rifle that is not even has chrome lining? I will never buy a Springer M14 ever again. In the future I only see Norinco's, Smith's, or LRB's. If the reciever is not up to spec, you will have a lot of problems with everything else.

Springers are good shooters and have lifetime warranty, but if you are looking for a rifle to do mods on, then I would pass on Springers.

As for the quality of a off the rack Norinco, they are good rifles. Back in 1994 they were known for their inferior soft bolts but now they seemed to have fixed that problem. The Reciever on Norinco's are forged and are considered top notch. Guys build USGI rifles around Nornico recivers. The oprod, and barrel on Norinco's are also excellent.

H20man from the M14 and SOPMOD forums said "My favorite shooter is my MK14 SEI built on a heel stamped Norinco receiver. It has an 18.0" chrome lined barrel."

check out his post here:
http://ebrsopmods.proboards100.com/index.cgi?board=ebrsopmods&action=display&thread=1167530645