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View Full Version : Need advice on a Bolt Rifle


Prc329
03-12-2007, 4:07 PM
I was over at turners thinking of buying a rifle. I looked at two rifles in particular. This one Tikka T3 lite (http://www.berettausa.com/product/rifles/series_page.cfm?currentseries=25) in either 223 or 308 and a Howa M-1500.

Now I was going to buy the Howa but they did not have the one I wanted in stock and could not order it (discontinued). I liked the feel of the Tikka and it is not that much mor then the howa package. No scope but that is o.k. since I could always buy a nice one for not that much to make a fuss over. I figure I would be in for about $1000 when all is said and done on the Tikka.

There is also the Tikka tactical but that is about $1200.

My question is what do you guys think about Tikka rifles and what do you think of the one I liked to? Also could I use XM193 in this guy? I have some 77 grain SMK 223 loads I could use if I went 223 but I think I will go 308.

Prc329
03-12-2007, 4:08 PM
Also, whats the deal with 22-250 for a bench gun?

wildcard
03-12-2007, 4:12 PM
If a rifle is chambered for .223, you can NOT use XM193 or 5.56 ammunition.

On the other hand, you can use .223 ammunition in a rifle chambered for 5.56

Prc329
03-12-2007, 4:15 PM
That's what I though.

proraptor
03-12-2007, 4:18 PM
Go savage...

Prc329
03-12-2007, 4:19 PM
I was looking at the model 10 they had on the shelf. Nice unit. The only thing I did not like was the internal mag. Seems like it would be a pain to unload at a cease fire.

proraptor
03-12-2007, 4:31 PM
The 2007 models will have n external magazine...Id wait for that if I were you

JesseXXX
03-12-2007, 4:37 PM
PRC329.. which Turners did you go to buddy...? (I work part-time at the Redondo Beach store)....

Prc329
03-12-2007, 4:39 PM
Signal Hill. I was looking at the Howa M-1500 varmiter package in 308. The computer said there was two but Robert called the two stores and they said they did not have them.

ocabj
03-12-2007, 4:56 PM
I was looking at the model 10 they had on the shelf. Nice unit. The only thing I did not like was the internal mag. Seems like it would be a pain to unload at a cease fire.

Considering it's only a 5 round box magazine, just operate the bolt to unload. Doesn't take that long. I would single load anyway, even with a magazine, if target shooting at the range. I do have a 10FP (in .308).

What are you going to use a bolt gun in .223 for? Most of the factory/commercial .223 chambered rifles have 1 in 9" twists. The Tikka is the only bolt .223 I know of with a 1 in 8" twist. Not sure if this will disuade you assuming you plan on using heavy bullets.

Personally, I'd skip the .223 and go .308 if you aren't using this for varminting and just for target practice.

Either that, or get a Savage in whatever chambering they have that is the cheapest, and rebarrel with a custom barrel with your own twist rate.

Personally, I'd get the Savage 12 long range varminter rifle. It's the single shot action with the straight contour barrel. I've seen two of these at the range and they are awesome rifles.

maschronic
03-12-2007, 4:59 PM
i havea tikka rifle. Syn stock. it shoots very nice. people who make tikka rifles also make sako rifles. its the same person makes both rifles.

my friend has a sako rifle. it shoots really nice!! tikka is a better deal. I would recommend tikka rifles to anybody.

Prc329
03-12-2007, 5:06 PM
Considering it's only a 5 round box magazine, just operate the bolt to unload. Doesn't take that long. I would single load anyway, even with a magazine, if target shooting at the range. I do have a 10FP (in .308).

What are you going to use a bolt gun in .223 for? Most of the factory/commercial .223 chambered rifles have 1 in 9" twists. The Tikka is the only bolt .223 I know of with a 1 in 8" twist. Not sure if this will disuade you assuming you plan on using heavy bullets.

Personally, I'd skip the .223 and go .308 if you aren't using this for varminting and just for target practice.

Either that, or get a Savage in whatever chambering they have that is the cheapest, and rebarrel with a custom barrel with your own twist rate.

Personally, I'd get the Savage 12 long range varminter rifle. It's the single shot action with the straight contour barrel. I've seen two of these at the range and they are awesome rifles.

I was always planning on 308 but then I saw that the tikka is a 1-8 and it peaked my intrest. The savage was a very nice piece though and was around $600 for a 308.

proraptor
03-12-2007, 6:01 PM
I got my savage 10fp in .308 for $480 out the door from turners....got to love their sales!

Prc329
03-12-2007, 6:08 PM
Nice

glockk9mm
03-12-2007, 6:23 PM
Signal Hill. I was looking at the Howa M-1500 varmiter package in 308. The computer said there was two but Robert called the two stores and they said they did not have them.

I got this pkg but in .223, Havent shot it yet tho. And The only thing I didn't look at when I bought it, it's a 1:12 twist, dont know how 55gr will shoot in it.

ocabj
03-12-2007, 7:07 PM
I was always planning on 308 but then I saw that the tikka is a 1-8 and it peaked my intrest. The savage was a very nice piece though and was around $600 for a 308.

Just in case you didn't know, from what owners have posted on this board and other boards, the internal magazine of the Tikka is very short and won't accomodate long rounds (heavy bullets). You should be able to single load long rounds fine, though.

James R.
03-12-2007, 7:44 PM
I got this pkg but in .223, Havent shot it yet tho. And The only thing I didn't look at when I bought it, it's a 1:12 twist, dont know how 55gr will shoot in it.

So many people are so utterly full of ***** when it comes to this issue. Trust me if you know how to shoot your 1:12 twist will not kill you. Yes, it's better to shoot heavier rounds because they resist the wind better. Yes with a slower rate of twist you have to watch the wind more closely but you also have higher velocity working for you, it's a trade off. If you had infinite muzzle velocity you'd get to the target instantly and thus wind wouldn't mean a thing. It's a vector, wind blowing you in one direction very slowly...and you haulin @$$ towards the target.

I have a Remington 700 chambered in 223 Remington with a slow *** 1:12 twist (this is a common thing on varmint rifles where they want faster flatter shooting rather than drift resistance. You're engaging targets at unknown distances in which case flatter is more important than anything else because you won't know your drop like you do for a fixed range) and it groups just fine even in the wind.

This isn't even my best group with this rifle but I keep chucking it out there cause I had it uploaded from July when I took it out last to fire form some new brass, this is shot off the bench on a harris BR-S bipod...these are mucho heavy bullets at a whopping 52 grains *rolls eyes* yeah you can't hit the side of a barn with light bullets, you must have a barrel twist of 1:7 or go home :-P

http://www.apatheology.com/public_shares/images/BestGroup_07032006.jpg

Regards,

James R.

damon1272
03-12-2007, 7:55 PM
I own two Tikka 595's. I would by the Tikka's and not look back. I sold my Savage heavy barrel in .223 for my Tikka in .223. Awsome rifles, the savage is ok but the Tikka's are much nicer and they shoot great.

ocabj
03-12-2007, 7:59 PM
There's no doubt that a 1 in 12" twist .223 rifle can shoot lightweight bullets with great accuracy at short range.

But the original poster wanted to shoot 77gr rounds, and a 1 in 9" has a 50/50 chance of being able to stablize the bullet.

.223 bolt guns with a 1 in 9" or slower are fine short range target rifles. If you want to varmint hunt, it's a good platform. If you just want to shoot groups at 100 yards, it's a good platform.

If you want to shoot midrange, 300yards and up, look for something else.

As far as a faster light bullet fighting cross wind better than a slower heavy bullet is not necessarily true. Even a 77gr SMK at 2700fps has less wind drift that a 55gr FMJBT running at 3100fps. But again, at only 100 yards, this isn't too much of a concern. But at 300 yards, 500, or 600, where a difference between a 5mph full wind and an 8mph gust could mean the difference between a 10 on the edge of the 9/10 ring and an 8, this is a concern.

Prc329
03-12-2007, 8:30 PM
O.K., my options (thanks to the wife) has expanded. I am looking to shoot 3 to 500 yards or more. My thought on the .223 was the availability of the Tikka in 1-8. I have had great success shooting 75 grain out of my Ar15s I thought it would be an option. I want to stay clear of 223 in anything else since it will probably be very slow and designed for light varmint bullets.

308 is my main goal but the Tikka seemed interesting. I am considering buying used. I was looking at ar15.com and saw some PSS I thought looked interesting. I shot my bosses a few weeks ago and really liked how it handled. That is the main reason i was originally looking at heavy barreled rifles and seeing how I liked my Howa before the BRD caught hold I was thinking of another Howa. Now since the wife has let me expand my budget to around $1200 for everything I am thinking of a used PSS and a nice used scope from ar15 or gunbroker.com

James R.
03-12-2007, 8:32 PM
There's no doubt that a 1 in 12" twist .223 rifle can shoot lightweight bullets with great accuracy at short range.

But the original poster wanted to shoot 77gr rounds, and a 1 in 9" has a 50/50 chance of being able to stablize the bullet.

.223 bolt guns with a 1 in 9" or slower are fine short range target rifles. If you want to varmint hunt, it's a good platform. If you just want to shoot groups at 100 yards, it's a good platform.

If you want to shoot midrange, 300yards and up, look for something else.

As far as a faster light bullet fighting cross wind better than a slower heavy bullet is not necessarily true. Even a 77gr SMK at 2700fps has less wind drift that a 55gr FMJBT running at 3100fps. But again, at only 100 yards, this isn't too much of a concern. But at 300 yards, 500, or 600, where a difference between a 5mph full wind and an 8mph gust could mean the difference between a 10 on the edge of the 9/10 ring and an 8, this is a concern.

Yeah with the longer time in flight the lighter bullet will catch up to you. I guess I should have stipulated if you want to poke holes at 100 yards don't lose any sleep over having a slower twist.

I just get a laugh when people obsess over shooting heavy bullets and I see them gabbing about it at Burro or whatever and their target is set up 50~100 maaaaaaybe at the 200 yard mark in rare cases. Maybe they get out somewhere where they're shooting longer and really gain some benefit, I sorta doubt it.

I understand your argument w.r.t to weight, however it's still a balancing act. You'll find a maxima somewhere, that is...you wouldn't want to keep driving the weight up and up because you'd drive the velocity down so far it'd bite you back.

Heavy bullets end up costing you a bit more, but if you're reloading it's not anything worth crying over. However if you've got a 1:8 or 1:7 barrel I don't think you're going to get great results shooting really light bullets out of it, lest you overstabilize.

I got a nasty shock today buying some ammo for my 50 BMG :-( 10 rounds -$65.00 (before shipping) ordered a box from Summit. If anyone knows of places with better prices for non steel cored 50 BMG ammo please share.

Regards,

James R.

Prc329
03-12-2007, 8:44 PM
Gotta make a few phone calls tomorrow but I think I know what I am going to do. I've narrowed it down to three choices. If it can be ordered without a very long wait time I may go for the Howa with the heavy barrel. If I can get it without a scope and just the rifle for a good price I will probably do that so save some cash and get some ammo and a good piece of glass.

If that is not going to work then the Savage or a used PSS will be my next choices. All in 308.

ocabj
03-12-2007, 9:12 PM
However if you've got a 1:8 or 1:7 barrel I don't think you're going to get great results shooting really light bullets out of it, lest you overstabilize.

There's no such thing as overstabilization. If there was, would overstabilization be a bad thing? I think everyone would love to have a bullet that is stabilized as much as possible.

The worst thing that can happen with too light a bullet in too fast a twist is ripping the jackets off the core while still in the barrel. And I have not read of any documented case of this ever happening. The next worse thing that could happen is spinning the jacket off the bullet while in flight. This is possible, but very rare.

Right when it's time for me to rebarrel my service rifle, I'm going to experiment and try to spin the jackets off some 52gr match bullets. I'm not sure how fast I can move them out of a 20" SR barrel (1 in 7"), but maybe I can hit 3500 fps. I'm going to put this on my to do list. Hopefully December of this year.

If I can get it without a scope and just the rifle for a good price I will probably do that so save some cash and get some ammo and a good piece of glass.
$1200 is a decent budget. For $1200, I'd personally get a 10FP in .308. Worst case it works out to $600 for the 10FP base model after taxes and fees. That leaves $600 for glass, base, and rings. I'd end up getting the Bushnell 3200 Elite 10x fixed mildot for $175, the Ken Farrell base for $75 or so, and the Burris Signature Zee rings for about $30. This leaves you $300 to put away towards a better scope if you want to go for something like the Burris Xtreme Tactical scope or a Leupold MK4. Or, you could go with the Sightron S2 4-16x42 mildot for about $400. It's a good scope for a decent price. I had one that I got as part of a package deal with a Savage 10FP (coincidentally) that I sold later on. In retrospect, I should have kept it.

I would recommend the TPS rings, but they are very hard to come by. They've always had problems getting product out to the commercial market.

Sydwaiz
03-12-2007, 9:14 PM
I love my Tikka T3 Lite in 22-250 w/ a Burris FF2 scope.
http://www.rsktool.com/Markspics/yotekiller2.jpg
Got it's first kill this last weekend. Not a bad gun for $470 delivered to my FFL and then the scope and binocular package for $180 delivered.