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cactus
03-10-2007, 4:04 PM
I was cleaning out my garage and found a Century 80% FAL receiver I had orderd god knows how long ago. I was wondering the legalities of completing this receiver. I would odviously expect to stamp and do the droes on it. But how should it be machined metric or inch? Also does any one know of a machinist who could complete such a task ( it came with prints) preferably in the sacramento area. Is any FAL kit going to be compatible? Last but not least is this hunk of steel even worth the head ache or the cost to perform such a task. Its spent at least 5 years in the garage I guess it could make a good screw driver holder!

On a separate note from a newbie, thank you one and all for such a great site. Its good to see such a wealth of knowledge & to realize im not the only gun nut left in Cali.

Thank you.

blacklisted
03-10-2007, 5:13 PM
I was cleaning out my garage and found a Century 80% FAL receiver I had orderd god knows how long ago. I was wondering the legalities of completing this receiver. I would odviously expect to stamp and do the droes on it. But how should it be machined metric or inch? Also does any one know of a machinist who could complete such a task ( it came with prints) preferably in the sacramento area. Is any FAL kit going to be compatible? Last but not least is this hunk of steel even worth the head ache or the cost to perform such a task. Its spent at least 5 years in the garage I guess it could make a good screw driver holder!

On a separate note from a newbie, thank you one and all for such a great site. Its good to see such a wealth of knowledge & to realize im not the only gun nut left in Cali.

Thank you.

It would definetely be legal to complete an "80%" FAL receiver (I have read that they are closer to 60% complete), but it probably wouldn't be practical. Not only that, but I believe that you are supposed to do all the machining when manufacturing your own firearm (or at least push the buttons to start the operation). And if by "droes" you mean DROS, that does not have to be done on a firearm manufactured by yourself for personal use. Stamping it with a unique serial number and manufacturer name (like Cactus Arms ;) ) is probably a good idea.

You could check the FALfiles to see if it's worth it to complete this job, but I doubt that it is. You can get a complete FAL receiver for around $400-425 (including state and dealer fees).

bwiese
03-10-2007, 5:57 PM
Use caution on 80% buildups.

Some Calgunners are getting into trouble for 'constructive possession' of MGs.

It appears a FAL receiver needs to have a semiauto ejector block installed. If you mess up and put the wrong part in, or your parts kit has a full auto ejector block in it and you have a FAL receiver (even with semiauto block installed) you could be in trouble. Make sure any parts kit you order does NOT have the full auto ejector block

I believe SemiAutoSam here can tell you more about FAL ejector blocks, I may be confusing something, but I know to be wary here.

Pryde
03-10-2007, 6:03 PM
AFAIK, I don't think anyone (home builder) has ever been able to complete an 80% FAL casting. Apparently it is quite a difficult task that you need at least a mid sized mill to do, and even after doing all that you have to be able to heat treat it.

SemiAutoSam
03-10-2007, 6:32 PM
Bill is right if you use a full auto ejector block this could present problems.

KIT FAL's are a dangerous area also which is one of the major reason why the 80% receivers exist.

Its not as enforced as the M16 parts in a AR15 but its still something that can get you into trouble the fact that when building a rifle from a KIT that was brought into the country the kit still has full auto parts and when and if this rifle is fondled by A unknowledgeable FFL or an average LEO and they see that the selector can go into the A position its often a phone call to the local BATF office and the rifle is taken and sent to the BATF&E technology branch in Washington DC. and at times there have been arrests made because of this unsure status of the rifle in question as they (the local BATF office) do not know if it is a contraband item or not they let Tech Branch figure this out and wait for a report back from them.

Below is a quote from a Board member here but in the case of a FAL Kit gun its Logic is incorrect if the FAL does not have a "SAFETY SEAR" but this is the kind of test that alot of DOJ and or BATF agents use hence the caution needed in building such a kit gun.



One could easily tell if a firearm is full auto.

Make sure the firearm is empty
charge the charging handle
pull the trigger leaving it depressed
pull the charging handle leaving the trigger pressed
let off the trigger and squeeze again, If there is a click, its semi; no click=full auto

A full auto firearm will release the hammer once the bolt is closed assuming the trigger is constantly depressed. The semi-auto will not




Below are 4 of the most recent threads where I talk about the pitfalls of FAL kit guns and the correct parts to use in a build if your hell bent on going this route.

As I have stated in the past the Semi Auto Selector and Semi Auto Trigger Plunger are very cheap insurance.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=49459&highlight=Trigger+plunger

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=48776&highlight=Trigger+plunger

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=48796&highlight=Trigger+plunger

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=46798&highlight=Trigger+plunger

chuck762
03-10-2007, 11:09 PM
Even with a auto ejector block in the receiver you can not install the auto sear unless you machine the receiver itself for it. I know Hess finished and sold their receivers with the auto block in it. They put a bit of weld on the block in the area where the sear went but even with out it the receiver will not accept the auto sear.

There have been a couple of guys onthe falfiles that have completed the receivers. They are a lot of work and with no known correct prints it makes it even harder to finish a casting. The prints you have are some half finished attempt someone made and has been selling for a while now. Some dimensions are correct, some are not and there is a lot of info missing. You really need a already machined receiver to reverse engineer to get the missing dimensions.

I started one but never got to complete it as I changed jobs and no longer have access to the machine shop after hours like I did before. I think it will end up a dummy gun or wall hanger.

wilit
03-10-2007, 11:16 PM
SAS, I've searched the DSA and Tapco website for the SA plunger, and can't find it. The only ones listed on DSA seem to be the original FA plungers. Know of another source for them?

Pryde
03-11-2007, 1:01 AM
SAS, I've searched the DSA and Tapco website for the SA plunger, and can't find it. The only ones listed on DSA seem to be the original FA plungers. Know of another source for them?

I wouldn't be too worried about it. Honestly in my opinion, as long as there is no autosear in your upper receiver, you are good to go. If you are extra paranoid get a semiauto safety or pistol grip and nobody will think your gun is FA.

Before SAS mentioned it I have never heard of anyone needing a semiauto plunger. I'm pretty sure DSA and Entreprise build all their rifles without semi-auto plungers, if the two biggest FAL manufacturers in the USA aren't worried about it, I don't think you should either.

-hanko
03-11-2007, 5:26 AM
I wouldn't be too worried about it. Honestly in my opinion, as long as there is no autosear in your upper receiver, you are good to go. If you are extra paranoid get a semiauto safety or pistol grip and nobody will think your gun is FA.

Before SAS mentioned it I have never heard of anyone needing a semiauto plunger. I'm pretty sure DSA and Entreprise build all their rifles without semi-auto plungers, if the two biggest FAL manufacturers in the USA aren't worried about it, I don't think you should either.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter79.txt
is the original atf ruling. Paragraph #3 on page one is the operative point of the approval. Armscorp has the semi trigger plunger. I've never seen a rifle with one, and I have more than a bit of experience with fal's.

If you're buying a selector, I'd go ahead and get the semi version from dsa. Tech branch stuff mentioned earlier in this thread happened a month or so ago due to a less than intelligent ffl in Arkansas...fact that the selector can move to the auto position does not mean the gun is full auto. As Pryde said, without the safety sear the gun cannot go fa, the receiver needs an additional cut to fit the sear; you machine the receiver without the auto sear cut.

As to machining the receiver yourself...good drawings do NOT exist for the home machinist, you will need a lot of experience to even understand how to go about machining, and a relatively complete metrology setup to check your work...it's different that making an 80% AR receiver come to life on your mini-mill. Better to buy a completed receiver, trust me.;)

-hanko

SemiAutoSam
03-11-2007, 7:59 AM
I will have a look for them Monday. and re post back here if I find anything of a positive nature.

Its rather odd don't you think why would FN use them on rifles imported and or the browning rifles also have them if they weren't necessary ?


SAS, I've searched the DSA and Tapco website for the SA plunger, and can't find it. The only ones listed on DSA seem to be the original FA plungers. Know of another source for them?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter79.txt

It is our understanding that the rifle has been designed and made
in Belgium as follows to prevent full automatic fire:

1. The change lever is blocked in such a way that it cannot
be moved forwardly into full automatic position. The
change lever thus becomes a standard safety.

2. The trigger return spring plunger has been modified to
limit the rearward movement of the trigger, regardless of
the position of the change lever.

3. The automatic sear has been eliminated. As pointed out,
the automatic sear is essential to full automatic fire.
If, for example, the two modifications above had not been
made, the rifle still would not fire full automatic
without the automatic sear. The hammer has to develop
enough energy in its forward motion to give sufficient
indentation on the primer to fire the cartridge. When
the hammer simply follows the breech block and slide
forward as it would without the automatic sear, it does
not ever impart the necessary energy to the firing pin.

- 2 -

The F.N. Browning light rifle described above will not be
considered a firearm as defined by Section 5848 of the National
Firearms Act and therefore not subject to the provisions of said
Act.

cactus
03-11-2007, 2:52 PM
I have access to a full machine shop but honestly this sounds like to much work for me; screw driver holder it is!

Thank you every one!

SemiAutoSam
03-12-2007, 1:27 PM
I called a bunch of places and also found that the Semi Auto trigger plunger is a very hard item to find.

I recently bought another semi auto selector with the R stamped on it.

I paid 25.00 which I feel is a good price. I will keep looking for the SA Trigger Plunger if for no other reason just to show that I know what I'm talking about and no I didn't make this up.

BTW this is the full auto Trigger Plunger.
http://www.washingtonceasefire.com/content/view/47/45/


I have reserved a space below to put the pic of the Semi Auto Trigger plunger.

__________________________________________________ __

that is all
Sam

-hanko
03-12-2007, 1:34 PM
I called a bunch of places and also found that the Semi Auto trigger plunger is a very hard item to find.

I recently bought another semi auto selector with the R stamped on it.

I paid 25.00 which I feel is a good price. I will keep looking for the SA Trigger Plunger if for no other reason just to show that I know what I'm talking about and no I didn't make this up.

that is all
Sam
http://www.armscorpusa.com/Products/fal_parts_list.html ... first hit on google.

hth;)

-hanko

bwiese
03-12-2007, 1:36 PM
I will keep looking for the SA Trigger Plunger if for no other reason just to show that I know what I'm talking about and no I didn't make this up.


Sam, you is da man here on FALs, and you gave us good info - thanks!

SemiAutoSam
03-14-2007, 8:38 PM
OK the illusive Semi Auto Trigger Plunger is about to come out of hiding.

I spoke to a friend that is a FN FAL gun smith and he mentioned to me that he made some of these.

I expect a shipment of gun parts from him soon and will ask that he includes a few of these so I can make them available to those that need them. I don't know the pricing just yet but will post here and in my Sig line.

Keep in mind this part along with the DSA or FN factory selector / Change lever will severely lessen the chances of your rifle being taken by a ignorant DOJ or BATFE employee.

Thanks Bill.:o

wilit
03-14-2007, 9:51 PM
SAS, if you could, reserve me one of those trigger plungers. Thanks.