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Bruce
12-24-2011, 7:10 AM
Thursday night I stopped off at the West Covina Turner's to buy some Pyrodex P. They were out, but the salesguy looked on their computer and said that the Norwalk store had seven cans, Corona had three and Chino Hills had two. Since it was on the way home, I decided to go to the Chino Hills store.
I got to Chino Hills and, after a wait, was "helped" by some old guy named John. Once I finally got him to understand what it was I wanted, (I had to write it out for him), he told me that the woman who was the only Chino Hills employee on the "powder license" was on maternity leave and no one else had access to the "powder safe". :facepalm: Why when I told him I wanted gun powder, he couldn't have told me that no one there had access, I don't know.
So I went to the Corona store Friday, and was waited on very quickly. I told the clerk about my experience at Chino Hills the previous night. his response; "Really? I've never heard of such a thing."
So the Chino Hills store has their collective HUA's or are just plain lazy or something. Somebody at corporate needs to see that more than one employee has access to the powder safe, assuming there really is such a thing. Judging by the Corona clerk's reaction, I doubt there is such a thing in the first place.

bill_k_lopez
12-24-2011, 7:20 AM
Wrong place for this post - put it in the Turners forum and have Turner's answer it for you.

secret.asian.man
12-24-2011, 7:24 AM
i was at west co turners on thursday night too! that guy with glasses (kerry?) behind he gun counter was trying to sell a newbie a AR-15 for HOME DEFENSE! the newbie specifically told him it was for HD, his budget was $500> and he wanted something low recoil and easy to aim for his mother.

kerry told the newbie to look for frangible ammo. so as the newbie was looking i started a conversation. i asked him what he wanted to do, his budget, etc... and he ended up telling me what he told kerry. i started to tell him about why the AR-15 wouldn't be the best HD weapon for what he wants it for and to look at a basic mossberg 500 or remington 870. so in the long run, i saved him about $650, and possible jail time if he bought the AR and his bullet went through or missed the intruder and into someone else.

Bruce
12-24-2011, 8:58 AM
Wrong place for this post - put it in the Turners forum and have Turner's answer it for you.

Thank you. I wasn't aware Turner's had a forum here. MR MODERATOR! Can you move this thread to the Turner's forum please?

cindynles
12-24-2011, 10:09 AM
i was at west co turners on thursday night too! that fat guy with glasses (kerry?) behind he gun counter was trying to sell a newbie a AR-15 for HOME DEFENSE! the newbie specifically told him it was for HD, his budget was $500> and he wanted something low recoil and easy to aim for his mother.

kerry told the newbie to look for frangible ammo. so as the newbie was looking i started a conversation. i asked him what he wanted to do, his budget, etc... and he ended up telling me what he told kerry. i started to tell him about why the AR-15 wouldn't be the best HD weapon for what he wants it for and to look at a basic mossberg 500 or remington 870. so in the long run, i saved him about $650, and possible jail time if he bought the AR and his bullet went through or missed the intruder and into someone else.

What's wrong with an AR for home defense? It sounds like the salesman was showing the customer what he asked for, low recoil and easy to aim. A shotgun is not the only answer for home defense and a shotgun with HD ammo (Buckshot) will penetrate just as much as a .223.

L4D
12-24-2011, 10:17 AM
LoL .223 and buckshot will not penetrate the same.

Buck will leave at least 4-5 holes - .223 one hole....

Cokebottle
12-24-2011, 10:22 AM
Dealt with the CH location on many occasions.
John and the other older guy (not Andy, but the shorter guy with a short white flat-top) are old-school gun shop employees that have been with Turner's since they had the old outlet store over off of Reservoir.

They are also two of the biggest FUD-spreaders in the chain, and apparently the only two at the CH location authorized to administer the "safe handling demonstration and 20 minute FUD speech"

Gun must be in a locked container with the child lock and in the truck.
Ammo must be in a separate locked container in the glove box.
:facepalm:

secret.asian.man
12-24-2011, 10:31 AM
What's wrong with an AR for home defense? It sounds like the salesman was showing the customer what he asked for, low recoil and easy to aim. A shotgun is not the only answer for home defense and a shotgun with HD ammo (Buckshot) will penetrate just as much as a .223.

the guy's budget was $500>. and his mom had to be able to use it. do you think his mother would be able to function an AR under stress? he wouldn't even be able to.

gono
12-24-2011, 11:53 AM
What's wrong with an AR for home defense? It sounds like the salesman was showing the customer what he asked for, low recoil and easy to aim. A shotgun is not the only answer for home defense and a shotgun with HD ammo (Buckshot) will penetrate just as much as a .223.

Over 3000fps versus slightly over 1000 fps. Not taking into account the fluid dynamics based on the surface areas it's obvious 223 will go thru many more Sheets of drywall than pellets.

Scratch705
12-24-2011, 2:16 PM
the guy's budget was $500>. and his mom had to be able to use it. do you think his mother would be able to function an AR under stress? he wouldn't even be able to.

shotgun ain't exactly easy to operate under stress too. with it being pump action, and short of using birdshot or low recoil buckshot, the first time that guy's mother goes to shoot it she will either drop it or break a collar bone from improperly shouldering it.

if anything, that hi-point carbine that shoots pistol calibers may have been best. easy to aim, low recoil, and no worries about over penetration since it shoots pistol caliber ammo. plus being semi-auto in a high stress situation, the mother just needs to pull the trigger (assuming she gets it loaded and cocked but the shotgun would need the same step)

Cokebottle
12-24-2011, 4:13 PM
Over 3000fps versus slightly over 1000 fps. Not taking into account the fluid dynamics based on the surface areas it's obvious 223 will go thru many more Sheets of drywall than pellets.
Doesn't matter if it will penetrate 2 or 22.

And all it takes to kill your neighbor is to go through two.

If a round is going to be effective as personal defense, then a missed shot will go through a wall into a neighboring condo or apartment and retain enough energy to injure or kill.

Steve1968LS2
12-24-2011, 4:30 PM
i was at west co turners on thursday night too! that fat guy with glasses (kerry?) behind he gun counter was trying to sell a newbie a AR-15 for HOME DEFENSE! the newbie specifically told him it was for HD, his budget was $500> and he wanted something low recoil and easy to aim for his mother.

kerry told the newbie to look for frangible ammo. so as the newbie was looking i started a conversation. i asked him what he wanted to do, his budget, etc... and he ended up telling me what he told kerry. i started to tell him about why the AR-15 wouldn't be the best HD weapon for what he wants it for and to look at a basic mossberg 500 or remington 870. so in the long run, i saved him about $650, and possible jail time if he bought the AR and his bullet went through or missed the intruder and into someone else.

So, what goes through more walls.. a 55gr round from an AR, a slug from a shot gun or 00 buck from a shot gun?

I don't think you "saved" the guy from anything.. lol

Steve1968LS2
12-24-2011, 4:31 PM
Dealt with the CH location on many occasions.
John and the other older guy (not Andy, but the shorter guy with a short white flat-top) are old-school gun shop employees that have been with Turner's since they had the old outlet store over off of Reservoir.

They are also two of the biggest FUD-spreaders in the chain, and apparently the only two at the CH location authorized to administer the "safe handling demonstration and 20 minute FUD speech"

Gun must be in a locked container with the child lock and in the truck.
Ammo must be in a separate locked container in the glove box.
:facepalm:

Wow.. like regular FUD vending machines.. lol

dshortone
12-24-2011, 8:07 PM
kerry (sic) told the newbie to look for frangible ammo. so as the newbie was looking i started a conversation. i asked him what he wanted to do, his budget, etc... and he ended up telling me what he told kerry. i started to tell him about why the AR-15 wouldn't be the best HD weapon for what he wants it for and to look at a basic mossberg 500 or remington 870. so in the long run, i saved him about $650, and possible jail time if he bought the AR and his bullet went through or missed the intruder and into someone else.

So the guy's mom shoots the shotgun and finds out that the recoil is too much and never shoots it ever again. Great job. Are you aware of frangible ammunition's characteristics? Jail time for missing a self-defense shot with an AR? Sounds like the FUD doesn't just come from stores...

LBDamned
12-25-2011, 6:49 AM
Why does it have to be a long gun? The only thing I read in his story that "might" be why - is he wants it to be easy to aim.

IMO a 9mm semi auto pistol would make sense... even a .40 or. 45 would be fine... it would be much easier for her to acquire and use swiftly under stress. The only thing I can think of that would be a deterrent is racking the slide (possibly) but with proper training that shouldnt be an issue - if she is elderly and doesn't have enough hand strength, I'm afraid just about all options would be a challenge.

If I were to arm my Mom with a weapon it would be a hand gun not a long gun.

brptrailrider
12-26-2011, 7:23 AM
Interesting penetration testing here:

Rifles & Hanguns
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Shotgun
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

gono
12-26-2011, 9:30 AM
Doesn't matter if it will penetrate 2 or 22.

And all it takes to kill your neighbor is to go through two.

If a round is going to be effective as personal defense, then a missed shot will go through a wall into a neighboring condo or apartment and retain enough energy to injure or kill.

Understood but the 223 round will retain much more energy then the 00 round thus increasing the risk of hitting a neighbor with a lethal blow. A shotgun is far superior to an AR for home defense that's the bottom line.

Cokebottle
12-26-2011, 11:00 AM
Understood but the 223 round will retain much more energy then the 00 round thus increasing the risk of hitting a neighbor with a lethal blow. A shotgun is far superior to an AR for home defense that's the bottom line.
I agree fully that the SG is the best way to go, but don't be lulled by it's mythical "safety".

If a backstop is not safe for a ,223, it's not safe for anything more than birdshot... and birdshot is about as useful for home defense as rubber bands.

Turner's Outdoorsman
12-27-2011, 9:44 AM
Thursday night I stopped off at the West Covina Turner's to buy some Pyrodex P. They were out, but the salesguy looked on their computer and said ...Chino Hills had two. Since it was on the way home, I decided to go to the Chino Hills store...

I got to Chino Hills and, after a wait, was "helped" by some old guy named John. Once I finally got him to understand what it was I wanted, (I had to write it out for him), he told me that the woman who was the only Chino Hills employee on the "powder license" was on maternity leave...


Not acceptable, PM sent.



So I went to the Corona store Friday, and was waited on very quickly. I told the clerk about my experience at Chino Hills the previous night. his response; "Really? I've never heard of such a thing." ....



Our Rancho Cucamonga and Chino Hills stores fall into SB County Sheriff's jurisdiction with regards to the sales of smokeless powder. They treat the sales of smokeless powder nearly the same as they do blasting caps and other similar items. Our two San Diego stores have some similar hoops to jump through, but the other 10 stores including Corona are unaffected.



Somebody at corporate needs to see that more than one employee...

Agreed; more info the same PM.

HPGunner
12-27-2011, 1:10 PM
The recoil on the shotgun would not fit the needs expressed by that customer. Although I wouldn't have recommended an AR15 as HD weapon either. The simplest weapon to operate would be a revolver. A 4" Stainless Ruger GP100 loaded with 38 special JHP would have been my recommendation. It's got some good weight to it to absorb much of the recoil. The 4" barrel would suppress some of the noise and flash over a 2" snub nose version. You can find a used one for under $500 or just get a new one for around $600. Easy to load and easy to aim. Swap out the front sight with some fiber optic Hi-Viz sights or maybe some tritium night sights.