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View Full Version : LEO had to sign safe handgun demo? And.....


brianm767
12-23-2011, 10:28 PM
My son is a Deputy and he told me he had an unpleasant experience with one of my favorite gun shops today.

He recently purchased two hand guns at the same time.

Well today he went to pick up his new toys and the dealer told him he needed him to sign the safe gun demo form? He said I'm exempt? The guy said well since your a cop you shouldn't ave any problem signing the form, they didn't ask him to do the demo, and they didn't have him do the demo, they just wanted him to sign the form?

They then pulled out some form and wanted him to fill it out explaining why he was buying more than one gun and what would be the disposition of the guns , at that time another employee said oh he's LEO he exempt, he doesn't need to fill out the form, the person helping my son said I don't care, I want every thing filled out, the gentleman filled out some basic info on the form then walked off, when he returned he grabbed all the paperwork and said ok your good to go, my kid said have a good day and left.

He said the form looked like some old form from the seventies, he didn't say wether it was a fed or state form, he just said he didn't complete it.

Any one know what this for might be? He's bought multiple guns before at the same time and has never been asked to fill out such a form or to sign a safety demo form as if he did the demo.

0351USMC
12-23-2011, 10:43 PM
When u purchase 2+ handgun,you have fill out Fed/ATF form

ke6guj
12-23-2011, 10:44 PM
he is exempt from the HSC requirement.

12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:
(1) Any active or honorably retired peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2.
(2) Any active or honorably retired federal officer or law enforcement agent.
(3) Any reserve peace officer, as defined in Section 832.6.


because he is exempt from the HSC, he is exempt from the HSD.

12071(b)(8)(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.


as an LEO, he is not exempt from the ATF requirment that the FFL report a multiple handgun purchase to ATF. http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-3310-4.pdf

IrishPirate
12-23-2011, 10:49 PM
he should have only had to show proof of being an LEO. I don't remember signing anything for being exempt from the handling demo when i showed my CCW.....LEO credentials carry more weight than that.

A lot of gun stores should offer complimentary toilet paper at the door to wipe all the BS off before you leave.....

brianm767
12-23-2011, 11:02 PM
Ok it looks like that must be it, I know he's bought multiple guns before but not sure if they were hand guns. I'll have to ask him later, I wonder why one employee said he was exempt from this?

It looks like the dealer is supposed to complete the form, not my kid? So if he didn't complete it, he may have but just told me he didn't, the dealer should be able to finish it. I know my kid never wants to deal with this store again, not for this but other issues that came up when he tried to buy the guns in the first place, he's really not going to want to have to go back there.

Funny thing though, it's one of my favorite stores.

tenpercentfirearms
12-24-2011, 8:05 AM
He is indeed safe handling demonstration exempt. He did not need to sign the form, but as the owner correctly pointed out, it didn't hurt him any to sign it and confirm that this store is not the sharpest pencil in the box.

He is not exempt from the multiple purchase form, but he is not responsible for filling it out unless the gun shop asks him to. We always fill the form out and don't make it any of the customer's concern.

I never understood gun shops that made people do more paperwork than they have to. I don't like completing and filling out more paper than I have to, so why make my customers do it along with me? It makes no sense, but some people think they are winning the war when they make everyone suffer the same and increase their own workload.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 8:31 AM
He is indeed safe handling demonstration exempt. He did not need to sign the form, but as the owner correctly pointed out, it didn't hurt him any to sign it and confirm that this store is not the sharpest pencil in the box.


Except that he did not do the safety demo and signing the form says that he did, which could be an issue. The FFL would be falsely stating that the demo was done.

Merc1138
12-24-2011, 9:14 AM
He is indeed safe handling demonstration exempt. He did not need to sign the form, but as the owner correctly pointed out, it didn't hurt him any to sign it and confirm that this store is not the sharpest pencil in the box.

He is not exempt from the multiple purchase form, but he is not responsible for filling it out unless the gun shop asks him to. We always fill the form out and don't make it any of the customer's concern.

I never understood gun shops that made people do more paperwork than they have to. I don't like completing and filling out more paper than I have to, so why make my customers do it along with me? It makes no sense, but some people think they are winning the war when they make everyone suffer the same and increase their own workload.

Dude... check this out:
http://targetmasterswest.com/uploads/Gun_Sale_Tracker.pdf

That's on top of the 4473, the DROS that the store does, the HSD form, safe affidavit if it's a long gun, the invoice, multiple manager approvals at different points(including getting it signed off that the ID was copied and who did it, that the DROS preview was printed, etc.), possibly having to do an HSC requiring it's own form invoice and transaction on top of the test itself. Keep in mind that the people who have to do all of the "approvals" may be involved in 5 other transactions at the same time causing a line of employees forming just to wait to get someone to sign off that they used the xerox machine. Then there is the possibility of the clerk you're dealing with not understanding how to conduct the safety demo(wtf?) even though it's probably the 5th gun they sold that day. There's also an entirely separate form they have on top of that disaster in the event a buyer isn't a US citizen.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 9:23 AM
I guess they are just trying to be safe. Perhaps it is due to the past experience that they have had with their employees.

In order for the clerk to conduct the safety demo, they need to be an instructor. The sales person also has to sign the form. If they don't know how to follow the instructions in the book, then it explains the form.

I have a checklist that I personally use to ensure that I do everything. That form is a bit interesting since it does not matter what the person writes down for the HSC number since they need a copy of it. I suspect that they ask the questions so that when they submit the DROS they can quickly just click on the boxes.

Merc1138
12-24-2011, 9:39 AM
I guess they are just trying to be safe. Perhaps it is due to the past experience that they have had with their employees.

In order for the clerk to conduct the safety demo, they need to be an instructor. The sales person also has to sign the form. If they don't know how to follow the instructions in the book, then it explains the form.

I have a checklist that I personally use to ensure that I do everything. That form is a bit interesting since it does not matter what the person writes down for the HSC number since they need a copy of it. I suspect that they ask the questions so that when they submit the DROS they can quickly just click on the boxes.

Quickly submitting DROS... lol. Between "I'll take it" and leaving with your receipt can be a 90 minute process in that store. There is no "quickly" or "saving time". There is an additional pile of paperwork and approvals required for pickup(45 minutes... that's fun) as well.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 10:42 AM
Quickly submitting DROS... lol. Between "I'll take it" and leaving with your receipt can be a 90 minute process in that store. There is no "quickly" or "saving time". There is an additional pile of paperwork and approvals required for pickup(45 minutes... that's fun) as well.

It does not take 45 minutes of customer time, certainly not 90 minutes, unless there is a serious problem. In case you did not notice, I am a FFL.

The customer can answer the questions which need to be asked for the DROS, which means that the DROS can be submitted quicker.

Merc1138
12-24-2011, 11:11 AM
It does not take 45 minutes of customer time, certainly not 90 minutes, unless there is a serious problem. In case you did not notice, I am a FFL.

The customer can answer the questions which need to be asked for the DROS, which means that the DROS can be submitted quicker.

You're totally missing my point.

Targetmasters takes 90 minutes for everyone.

Clerk asks you to fill out stupid form.
Clerk gets manager to initial form.
Clerk gets you to fill out 4473.
Clerk gets manager to initial first form that 4473 was filled out.
Clerk gets your ID and copies it.
Clerk gets manager to initial first form that ID was copied.
Clerk gets "DROS guy" to start DROS.
Clerk gets manager to initial first form that DROS was done.

Customer needs HSC.
Clerk gets HSC book and hands it to the customer.
Clerk then hands customer HSC test.
Clerk gets manager to grade HSC test.
Clerk takes customer to cash register to ring up HSC purchase.
Clerk gets manager to sign first form indicating the customer has an HSC.

And on and on and on.

I am well aware of how long it should take to buy a gun, and I also know how long it takes at that particular shop due to their insane chain of paperwork and manager approvals. 60-90 minutes to complete a purchase is SOP there. The only exception to that is if the person handling the sale happens to be the person doing approvals that shift, and even then it takes a while because they keep getting interrupted by other employees needing things signed off constantly.

I understand having a procedure and a checklist, but targetmasters is insane. I also understand that you're an FFL and know how long it should take, but also understand that I've purchased more than 1 gun from more than 1 shop and also know how long it should take. Yes, the shop is that bad.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 11:33 AM
Ok, so you were being specific about them, sorry. Sounds like you need to go to a different place.

Merc1138
12-24-2011, 12:18 PM
Ok, so you were being specific about them, sorry. Sounds like you need to go to a different place.

I know, I do go elsewhere. I was merely pointing out one of their inane pieces of paperwork in response to tenpercentfirearm's comment about shops adding extra useless gargbage that eats up time.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 12:30 PM
If you filled out the form in advance, it should save time (if they got rid of all the extra checks and/or fired the people who could not follow a checklist).

Merc1138
12-24-2011, 12:55 PM
If you filled out the form in advance, it should save time (if they got rid of all the extra checks and/or fired the people who could not follow a checklist).

I forgot to mention that you only fill the form out prior to filling out the 4473, lol. I get what you're saying, but it just doesn't work at that shop. I kinda wish I could film a transaction there, you'd see more walking as the customers pace around bored than in a LotR movie.

kemasa
12-24-2011, 2:40 PM
I don't think that I would want to see such a video, it sounds too much like a train wreck.