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View Full Version : Charging Sales Tax On Out of State Transfer


kfitchne
03-08-2007, 10:11 PM
Just had an FFL tell me today that I'd be required to pay him the 7.5% CA sales tax on the purchase price of a firearm I'm having shipped into the state. I've never encountered such a claim before. I was always under the impression that it was up to me to declare the transfer come tax season.

Has anyone encountered the same issue or found evidence that shows otherwise? If you have your FFL please post, afterall, its you guys that'll surely know.

tenpercentfirearms
03-08-2007, 10:14 PM
If you ask the BOE, the consider the FFL the retailer and thus the FFL is supposed to collect the sales tax. It isn't supposed to be optional. Of course many dealers choose not to and just put it on the buyer. I would hate to see them get BOE audited and then have to pay all of that tax.

We collect the sales tax.

kfitchne
03-08-2007, 10:17 PM
Interesting Wes, this is the first time I've ever heard of this. How can this be enforced with every other item purchased (e.g. internet) you are obligated to declare yourself? Whats the difference?... by the way, for those reading, this was a small FFL who doesn't frequent the forum.

tenpercentfirearms
03-08-2007, 10:21 PM
The difference is I am a licensed FFL and they can come screw me real easy on an audit. That is the difference. AKA because they can. :mad:

Mosby
03-09-2007, 6:58 AM
Do not know if this helps, but I purchased a CA legal M1A from Oregon and had it shipped to my local FFL and he didn't charge me any sales tax on the weapon.

Mosby

Turbinator
03-09-2007, 2:37 PM
We collect the sales tax.

Maybe some unscrupulous dealers also keep the tax and don't report it to the BOE? Not you per se, but others. I can see this happening.

Turby

tenpercentfirearms
03-09-2007, 2:59 PM
I would think the dealer who keeps the sales tax and doesn't send it to the BOE would be taking a pretty big risk. All a customer has to do is report something like that and you get audited. It is going to take an auditor all of ten seconds to find out the truth. Maybe I am just too honest of a dealer and don't realize how shady some people are, I just don't think it is worth a whopping 8% to people to charge tax and keep it. I would much rather just have you keep the money and keep coming back for more than lie in order to make 8% on your transfer. Heck, if I wanted to make money on transfers I would just charge $50 to $100 a transfer and I wouldn't even need to steal your tax money when I could legitimately take your fees.

I am not taking any of this personal, I am just saying I don't know if I buy into that idea that dealers are trying to steal people's money when we are just trying to follow the law and stay out of trouble ourselves.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 3:09 PM
Wes,
How do handle out of state transfers that are gifted or already owned by the CA resident, but needs transfered into the state?

tenpercentfirearms
03-09-2007, 7:59 PM
Wes,
How do handle out of state transfers that are gifted or already owned by the CA resident, but needs transfered into the state?
I don't. If you already own a gun and are bringing it in, then you just bring it in when you move. If it is a gift in the direct family line, then they can just bring those in. If it is a non-direct family line gift then it will be the giver's responsibility to show they paid sales tax or you will have to pay sales tax.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/reg1670.pdf

Basically, the amount of money I charge for a transfer hardly makes up for me taking a hit if I ever get audited. Sorry.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 8:12 PM
I don't. ..
That is fine

...If you already own a gun and are bringing it in, then you just bring it in when you move. If it is a gift in the direct family line, then they can just bring those in. ....

Hmm, that last part would be illegal as a handgun HAS to go thru a FFL since it is crossing state lines, even though it is a parent/child gift transfer. One simply cannot "just bring those in". So that is why I asked if you handled such things and if so how when it comes to not having to pay sales tax (since no money exchanged hands). But since you don't do these type of transfers, I understand.

Edit: This is applying to a CA resident (per my first post) that receives a handgun from parent/child out of state.

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 8:37 PM
One simply cannot "just bring those in".

Yes he can.... if one moves from another state he can declare his non-AW handguns with a form to the DOJ without going through an FFL.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 8:40 PM
Yes he can.... if one moves from another state he can declare his non-AW handguns with a form to the DOJ without going through an FFL.

I'm not taking about someone moving in. I'm talking about a CA resident that gets a firearm gift from out of state and therefore the firearm MUST go thru the FFL.

tenpercentfirearms
03-09-2007, 8:40 PM
Hmm, that last part would be illegal as a handgun HAS to go thru a FFL since it is crossing state lines, even though it is a parent/child gift transfer. One simply cannot "just bring those in". So that is why I asked if you handled such things and if so how when it comes to not having to pay sales tax (since no money exchanged hands). But since you don't do these type of transfers, I understand.
It would be illegal if it is a handgun. It wouldn't be illegal if it is a long gun.

As far as the logic on collecting sales tax on something I didn't sell? It pisses me off too. How in the hell do I claim I sold something when I never did? It doesn't matter to the BOE. I put down there that I sold it even though I never saw a cent. In QuickBooks it is easy. I just charge you a transfer tax, I make a notation how much you claim the gun was worth, times that by .0725% and take your money. That is how I do it.

So if you had to do a handgun gift transfer through me, it would be handled just the same as any other. Show me you paid sales tax or you have to pay me as the "retailer" in such transaction. If you can find a BOE waiver for inheritance, show me and I would happily print it and attach it to your paperwork.

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 8:43 PM
I'm not taking about someone moving in. I'm talking about a CA resident that gets a firearm gift from out of state and therefore the firearm MUST go thru the FFL.

if I were in that situation.... I would "drive to my dad's house" where he gave me the gun.... then file the appropriate paperwork once returning home.

tenpercentfirearms
03-09-2007, 8:44 PM
if I were in that situation.... I would "drive to my dad's house" where he gave me the gun.... then file the appropriate paperwork once returning home.
Isn't paying someone to ship the handgun to you across state lines the same as driving it yourself? :confused:

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 8:46 PM
Show me you paid sales tax or you have to pay me as the "retailer" in such transaction. If you can find a BOE waiver for inheritance, show me and I would happily print it and attach it to your paperwork.

Its another stupid law.... same as requiring a trigger lock within 30 days...

anyone with quickbooks can make a fake company file, create an invoice that has "tax" and "a trigger lock" on it... print it... and then delete the QBW file...

voila.... you have an invoice to copy to put in your records for CYA.... customer has a gun without jumping through hoops....


idiocy...

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 8:48 PM
Isn't paying someone to ship the handgun to you across state lines the same as driving it yourself? :confused:

One can ship a gun for repair without an FFL.... if it was determined that a firearm had been shipped I am sure it would be the firearm my dad shipped to me so that i could do a trigger job on it... it is not the firearm he is giving me.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 9:12 PM
if I were in that situation.... I would "drive to my dad's house" where he gave me the gun.... then file the appropriate paperwork once returning home.

This would be highly illegal and by filing the "appropriate paperwork" you are admitting on it to the DOJ that is was received out of state (since you have to report the parent's out of state address). Yet there will be no 4473 to back you up that you followed Federal laws....not very smart in my book.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 9:14 PM
One can ship a gun for repair without an FFL.... if it was determined that a firearm had been shipped I am sure it would be the firearm my dad shipped to me so that i could do a trigger job on it... it is not the firearm he is giving me.

You can only ship a firearm to a FFL or holder of a gunsmith license or the manufacture. You cannot freely ship your guns to some guy doing a trigger job for you, unless he holds a license.

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 9:15 PM
This would be highly illegal and by filing the "appropriate paperwork" you are admitting on it to the DOJ that is was received out of state (since you have to report the parent's out of state address). Yet there will be no 4473 to back you up that you followed Federal laws....not very smart in my book.

If I obtain ownership of the gun in a state that does not legislate ownership of handguns and I become the legal owner out of state then it is my firearm. I can now move into the state and declare it as an already owned firearm.

Hunter
03-09-2007, 9:23 PM
If I obtain ownership of the gun in a state that does not legislate ownership of handguns and I become the legal owner out of state then it is my firearm. I can now move into the state and declare it as an already owned firearm.

You can only obtain handguns in the state you are a resident of. If you have residence out of state and move back into CA, then doing what you say here is correct.

However, this whole discussion is about receiving a handgun via family transfer with one person out of state(gifter) and the receiver a CA resident. The gun MUST go thru a FFL and any other way would be illegal. The original question was how BOE dictated sales tax would be handled on such a FFL transfer when the sales tax was paid out of state by the gifter. 10% answered that by saying he would require some proof, otherwise he would collect tax again.

E Pluribus Unum
03-09-2007, 9:32 PM
You can only obtain handguns in the state you are a resident of. If you have residence out of state and move back into CA, then doing what you say here is correct.

However, this whole discussion is about receiving a handgun via family transfer with one person out of state(gifter) and the receiver a CA resident. The gun MUST go thru a FFL and any other way would be illegal. The original question was how BOE dictated sales tax would be handled on such a FFL transfer when the sales tax was paid out of state by the gifter. 10% answered that by saying he would require some proof, otherwise he would collect tax again.

Thats just the point.... how is the DOJ supposed to know 3 years down the road wether I lived in Florida for 45 days?

They cannot...

My whole point here is that there are so many holes in these stupid laws, there are many ways around them.

I have told myself that gun rights are not worth risking. I am not willing to risk any possibility of losing them. I was simply pondering of how someone could get around it.

Franksremote
03-09-2007, 11:20 PM
Maybe some unscrupulous dealers also keep the tax and don't report it to the BOE? Not you per se, but others. I can see this happening.

Turby

It happens with every other type of business, I'm SURE that there are dealers out there that do that too. Your mom and pop cell phone store almost certainly does this.

mike452
03-09-2007, 11:53 PM
A pawn FFL in Fontana wanted to charged me sales tax for an out-of-state purchase over 2 years ago. Thanks to them I found Chris in Riveside.