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blarf
12-20-2011, 10:43 PM
Hi,
I know it probably has been asked before but i cannot find any answer:

Is the main difference, between BFH and Standard, only the increased life of the barrel?

no accuracy increase?

I'm just trying to justify the extra $90 (BCM) but if there isn't anything else but increased life, i think i'll get the standard. any help would be appreciated.

By the way, it would mostly be used at the range, probably around 1000 rounds a year, maybe a class a year or something...

themailman
12-20-2011, 10:48 PM
You don NEED the BFH, esp for how little you shoot. I have it, and I bought it just for extra peace of mind. It will most likely outlast me.

RuggedJay
12-21-2011, 4:32 AM
You dont need it.

CHS
12-21-2011, 10:45 AM
Hammer forged barrels are generally capable of more accuracy than a standard cut-rifled or button-rifled barrel. They are also harder and last longer.

chicoredneck
12-21-2011, 11:13 AM
^^^^ not true at all

CHS
12-21-2011, 11:22 AM
^^^^ not true at all

Why don't you enlighten us then?

But first, perhaps you should read this technical article about the hammer forged barrel creation process:
Precision Shooting Magazine - Hammer Forged Barrels Article (http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20%28Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207%29.htm)

Omega13device
12-21-2011, 12:50 PM
The idea that they're a better value because they last longer is a false economy. A standard chrome-lined barrel should last at least 40-50,000 rounds. Most people will never wear out a barrel at that rate.

And in any case, I have yet to see the longer life claim scientifically documented in the real world with a 5.56 AR barrel.

chicoredneck
12-21-2011, 1:17 PM
Why don't you enlighten us then?

But first, perhaps you should read this technical article about the hammer forged barrel creation process:
Precision Shooting Magazine - Hammer Forged Barrels Article (http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20%28Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207%29.htm)

Most factory production barrels for the major sport shooting companies are hammer forged. The quality of a barrel is only as good as the quality control and the precision put into the manufacturing process. The accuracy detriments associated with hammer forged barrels come from bad mandrels and poor stress relieving. Nobody is going to claim (at least not rightly) that remington, ruger, and other factory hammer forged barrels are the most accurate barrels. What often happens with hammer forged barrels is that the mandrels wear out, but are not replaced immediately. Over the last 10 - 20 years accuracy of factory guns using hammer forged barrels have improved, but they are still not at the same level as a nice single point cut barrel produced by a reputable company.

The hardening of the metal is true, but it does not offer much benefit in real world situations. Chrome lining and nitro carburizing offer far more protection agains wear than hammer forging can realize. Even with non treated or lined barrels the difference in barrel life is going to be negligable.

The true benefit of hammer forged barrels is cost savings. It is cheaper and faster to produce barrels by hammer forging than it is by any other common method. The germans invented the process in WW2 to mass produce machine gun barrels. The equipment for hammer forging is expensive however, so start up costs for businesses are much cheaper (especially if their market share is projected to be very small) with traditional cut rifling or button rifling equipment.

Any barrel manufactured using any method can produce very precise barrels, but just as well they can also be real dogs. The quality of the product is determined by the producer, not the method in this case.

CHS
12-21-2011, 1:54 PM
Any barrel manufactured using any method can produce very precise barrels, but just as well they can also be real dogs. The quality of the product is determined by the producer, not the method in this case.

Hence I used the term "GENERALLY". Thanks for reading my statement in its entirety. :rolleyes:

freonr22
12-21-2011, 2:03 PM
The idea that they're a better value because they last longer is a false economy. A standard chrome-lined barrel should last at least 40-50,000 rounds. Most people will never wear out a barrel at that rate.

And in any case, I have yet to see the longer life claim scientifically documented in the real world with a 5.56 AR barrel.

did you mean 4,000-5000? or did you mean 40,000 rounds?

chicoredneck
12-21-2011, 2:07 PM
Hence I used the term "GENERALLY". Thanks for reading my statement in its entirety. :rolleyes:

No, they are not "GENERALLY" more accurate or precise, in fact the oposite is true. Most hammer forged barrels are for production grade sporting rifles (I gave the example of remington and ruger in my earlier post). They are not more accurate/precise than most button or cut rifled barrels of similar profile and purpose.

Read my post in it's entirety before you resort to this - :rolleyes:

icenix
12-21-2011, 2:09 PM
I just bought a BCM BFH, paying the extra money......Haven't shot it yet though. Is it worth it? Who knows?......Still, I underestimated the total of everything else I wanted to go along with it, so if I had it to do over I would probably have gone with the standard.

223556
12-21-2011, 2:12 PM
I bought the standard BCM 14.5" mid length and its as accurate as I can be. Groupings at a 100 yds are VERY Good. cant imagine getting an better then it already is with a standard barrel.
Its your money, spend how you like, if it gives you peice of mine, then spend the extra. I have 110% confidence in my standard barrel.

chicoredneck
12-21-2011, 2:25 PM
What blows my mind is that companies are charging MORE for hammer forged barrels. It is cheaper for them to produce than button or cut rifling. It must be to recoup their intial cost of investment, because hammer forging equipment is very expensive.

It's mazing what marketing can do. It used to be that hammer forged barrels were scoffed at in the target shooting community due to their inferior accuracy, and now you have companies claiming they are more accurate and charging a premium. New special production hammer forged barrels may be more accurate than the old hammer forged barrels, but they are not a "premuim product" in the true sense of the word, especially not a chrome line hammer forged barrel. And as I stated earlier, their claim to longevity is a farce. There may be some validity to this claim of barrel longevity on paper, but in the real world most, if not all, shooters are never going to see a difference in the field between a hammer forged and a button/cut rifled barrel.

C4iGrant
12-21-2011, 2:59 PM
Talking with Colt, they tested Colt Canada's Hammer Forged barrels against the standard ones sold to the Military. There was NO accuracy difference.

With that said, I am of the opinion that if you have a choice between a companies HF barrel and Standard barrel, always go for the HF barrel. The main reason is that in the AR community, most of the HF barrels that are available come from FNH. These are fantastic barrels and shoot very well (from my personal experience).

So if you are buying a Colt barrel, a HF barrel is not going to do much for you. If trying to decide between a companies HF offering and their non-HF offering, I (personally) would go HF.



C4

chicoredneck
12-21-2011, 3:25 PM
Why don't you enlighten us then?

But first, perhaps you should read this technical article about the hammer forged barrel creation process:
Precision Shooting Magazine - Hammer Forged Barrels Article (http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/Precision%20Shooting%20Magazine%20-%20November-%202005%20%28Vol_%2053%20-%20No_%207%29.htm)

Good article. Thanks for sharing. I don't mean to be rude with my post, but I didn't have time to type a full response.

Half-Bear
12-21-2011, 6:44 PM
What blows my mind is that companies are charging MORE for hammer forged barrels. It is cheaper for them to produce than button or cut rifling. It must be to recoup their intial cost of investment, because hammer forging equipment is very expensive.

It's mazing what marketing can do. It used to be that hammer forged barrels were scoffed at in the target shooting community due to their inferior accuracy, and now you have companies claiming they are more accurate and charging a premium. New special production hammer forged barrels may be more accurate than the old hammer forged barrels, but they are not a "premuim product" in the true sense of the word, especially not a chrome line hammer forged barrel. And as I stated earlier, their claim to longevity is a farce. There may be some validity to this claim of barrel longevity on paper, but in the real world most, if not all, shooters are never going to see a difference in the field between a hammer forged and a button/cut rifled barrel.
Correct on all accounts. Hammer Forging is a cheaper way of mass producing quality barrels. The machining equipments are more expensive, which takes into the account of the premium price. However, if and when manufacturers break even, you would see a dramatic decrease in price.

What gets me is that they are being marketed as a new process, when hammer forging has been around for decades. AKs are hammer forged.

CHS
12-21-2011, 7:40 PM
What gets me is that they are being marketed as a new process, when hammer forging has been around for decades. AKs are hammer forged.

To the US market, it IS a relatively new process.

Half-Bear
12-21-2011, 9:41 PM
Depends on your definition of new. Ruger possessed hammer forging machinery since the 90s. In the AR market, it is relatively new.

Omega13device
12-21-2011, 11:11 PM
did you mean 4,000-5000? or did you mean 40,000 rounds?

Yes I really meant 40,000 rounds. That's for a chrome-lined .223 or 5.56 AR barrel on a semi-auto rifle. Consistency falls off slowly with usage though, and when a barrel is "used up" is going to depend on what kind of consistency you expect. If your minimum standard is 1 MOA groups you're going to replace your barrel sooner than if you're just using it for carbine classes where expectations are more like 3-4 MOA.

jimmykan
12-21-2011, 11:49 PM
There are many barrel-making techniques that can produce excellent barrels.

David Tubb, multiple-time NRA long range champion, uses only Schneider pull-button rifled barrels.

The practical precision rifle crowd, running GA Precision, McMillan, and custom-smithed rifles, seem to prefer single-point cut rifled barrels.

I believe factory Remington 700 barrels, including the tactical and varmint versions and I heard even the current-production 5R, are hammer forged.

chicoredneck
12-22-2011, 5:29 AM
There are many barrel-making techniques that can produce excellent barrels.

David Tubb, multiple-time NRA long range champion, uses only Schneider pull-button rifled barrels.

The practical precision rifle crowd, running GA Precision, McMillan, and custom-smithed rifles, seem to prefer single-point cut rifled barrels.

I believe factory Remington 700 barrels, including the tactical and varmint versions and I heard even the current-production 5R, are hammer forged.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that remington has been using hammer forged barrels in their rifles since at least the 1960s and maybe even since the 1950s.

blarf
12-22-2011, 11:02 PM
looks like i'm gonna get the standard then

Beagle
12-22-2011, 11:40 PM
According to BCM website

Cold Hammer Forged Barrels
This process of manufacturing barrels has been used for European small arms for generations, and it is gaining popularity in the United States because of the increased barrel life and outstanding accuracy of a hammer forged barrel. The BCM BFH™ series of barrels are made right here in the USA! (Just like all the BCM products.)

On that note you will be fine with a standard just google "filthy 14"

I got a BFH just because I figure for a small price increase it's not a bad deal, but since I don't shoot much I should have gotten the standard.

donking
12-23-2011, 10:09 PM
Yes I really meant 40,000 rounds. That's for a chrome-lined .223 or 5.56 AR barrel on a semi-auto rifle. Consistency falls off slowly with usage though, and when a barrel is "used up" is going to depend on what kind of consistency you expect. If your minimum standard is 1 MOA groups you're going to replace your barrel sooner than if you're just using it for carbine classes where expectations are more like 3-4 MOA.

You are off by a factor of 2. This sticky thread says the barrel should be replaced at 20,000 rounds.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61505

:oji:

CRTguns
12-23-2011, 11:18 PM
Hammer forged barrels are generally capable of more accuracy than a standard cut-rifled or button-rifled barrel. They are also harder and last longer.

50% right....
No match grade rifle barrel (kreiger, rock, douglass, pacnor, lilja, etc... use forged barrels. Does not make the most accurate pipe, but the interior IS work hardened by the forgin process, and smoother than a cut bore, so less friction, and more abraision resistant.

Omega13device
12-24-2011, 1:35 PM
You are off by a factor of 2. This sticky thread says the barrel should be replaced at 20,000 rounds.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61505

:oji:

That's a replacement interval recommendation, not an estimate of lifetime.

Like I said, the stricter your standards for group size, the shorter the life of the barrel. Unless you're using your chrome-lined barrel for precision shooting you're going to get a lot of life out of it.

donking
12-24-2011, 4:52 PM
That's a replacement interval recommendation, not an estimate of lifetime.

Like I said, the stricter your standards for group size, the shorter the life of the barrel. Unless you're using your chrome-lined barrel for precision shooting you're going to get a lot of life out of it.

Useful life of the barrel is the same thing as a replacement recommendation. :banghead:

If it is for a fun gun or training rifle, shoot it until it breaks. If you need to depend upon it with your life, you don't want it to fail at the moment of truth. Here is their quote:

*This is designed as a guideline for working (SHTF) rifles. We always recommend having a training rifle setup as closely as possible to your main fighting arm. If you have a training rifle, we recommend running the mentality of, ‘fix it when it breaks’ (but still make note in your logbooks) since the purpose is solely training. IE: Don’t replace the barrel on your training gun unless accuracy diminishes and don’t replace your extractor until it fails.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61505

:seeya:

Omega13device
12-24-2011, 6:14 PM
We're talking about barrels, not bolts or FCGs. Barrels don't "break". Ask Pat Rogers how many rounds he's getting out of the chrome-lined barrels he lends out to his students.

CHS
12-25-2011, 5:28 PM
We're talking about barrels, not bolts or FCGs. Barrels don't "break". Ask Pat Rogers how many rounds he's getting out of the chrome-lined barrels he lends out to his students.

This.

Unless you have an over-pressure situation, barrels just don't break. And with the AR platform and most over-pressure situations the barrel does just fine. It's the upper and/or bolt and bolt carrier that suffers.

A barrel will keep sending lead downrange for as long as it can support a live cartridge. It doesn't "break" like bolts, extractors, ejectors, carriers, hammers, etc break. At some round count, it will lose an acceptable amount of accuracy for you. But that's entirely subjective. For something people that round count is 1500 rounds. For some it's 10,000. For others it's even more than that. None of that, however, has an affect on reliability. It doesn't matter one bit of a barrel has 1000 rounds, or 50,000 rounds through it when it comes to RELIABILITY. The barrel will keep spitting out lead no matter what.

If all you ever need a firearm to do is hit a man-sized target within 100 yards, then 100,000 rounds might be acceptable for a barrel. If you're a bench-rest shooter than you may desire to change barrels every 1000 rounds. Neither choices are wrong, but in both cases the barrel is never "broken" and nor does it affect reliability.

Richard Erichsen
12-25-2011, 6:20 PM
The idea that they're a better value because they last longer is a false economy. A standard chrome-lined barrel should last at least 40-50,000 rounds. Most people will never wear out a barrel at that rate.

And in any case, I have yet to see the longer life claim scientifically documented in the real world with a 5.56 AR barrel.

A typical AR platform is due for overhaul of most of it's components, bolt group and barrel in particular, about ever 5000-6000 rounds. A barrel that might last 3-5 times longer should be checked for throat and muzzle erosion and if it checks good, move on to bolt components/buffer and re-mediate as necessary.

By the time you've fired $6000-$7500 in current average price for 5.56 NATO ammunition through a given rifle, you've overhauled it 4-5 times. A good run for any weapon.

R

blarf
12-26-2011, 2:18 PM
so it seems that standard barrel would be enough for me

FatalKitty
12-26-2011, 4:45 PM
A typical AR platform is due for overhaul of most of it's components, bolt group and barrel in particular, about ever 5000-6000 rounds. A barrel that might last 3-5 times longer should be checked for throat and muzzle erosion and if it checks good, move on to bolt components/buffer and re-mediate as necessary.

By the time you've fired $6000-$7500 in current average price for 5.56 NATO ammunition through a given rifle, you've overhauled it 4-5 times. A good run for any weapon.

R

so I guess I should have replaced my BCG 3 times already... and my barrel as well.

just finished off a case this afternoon... total # (counted by receipts) rounds 13,500