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pklin1297
03-07-2007, 8:04 PM
Hello all,

Was just watching several YouTube videos on Rob Leatham, Tod Jarrett, and a few other IPSC shooters running through firing stages and I was noticing the very minimal recoil of their guns while shooting. I have shot an unlimited heavily modified 38 super 1911 and the recoil is almost like a .22 so I understand the minimal recoil there, but Rob Leatham was shooting I believe one of Springfield's production 1911s in one stage and the muzzle of the gun didn't move very much when he shot. Rob Leatham is one of the greatest shooters today but what is he doing to control the recoil so well? He loads all his own ammo so is a light-load .45 ACP one of the contributing factors here? I guess I would just like to know how to best "control" recoil for faster shooting... Any thoughts?

Yar
03-07-2007, 8:53 PM
Isosceles

Recoil management is 90% technique. I too do a lot of pistol competition, granted not on the level of Robbie, Todd, Dave, or Mikey. Still there are thing to be learned.

First you have to shoot with the modern thumbs forward modern isosceles grip/stance. That means both thumbs forward, both arms outstretched but not locked, head down to sights, bent at waist leaning into the gun, feet at "punchers stance" with knees bent.

I tell people first to get in a stance to throw a punch. This is your most stable platform. Where you feet, knees, hips, chest, shoulders and head are is where you want to be when you’re shooting.

That entire weaver stance, push/pull stuff, forget it. Isosceles triangle, thumbs forward, cock your weak hand wrist. This will give you the longest sight picture with the most mechanical advantage/leverage for dealing with recoil.

The set up of the gun with the proper springing will help. The ammo by the way all makes major power factor so it's not some kind of powder puff load. You can work a hand load to have certain recoil characteristics and still make major PF. Here is the thing though, the serious guys don’t really worry about how the shot feels, only how fast it resets for the nest shot. Thus a fast, flippy load is more advantageous over a soft, slow, pushy load.

Andrew LB
03-08-2007, 2:21 AM
Heavier guide rods as well as different spring weights will help reduce recoil and improve your accuracy on double taps. I recently added a tungsten guide rod and #22 spring to my Springfield XD and love the improvement.

Yar
03-08-2007, 10:40 AM
Generally we go with lighter recoil springs as it both speeds up slide speed and smooths out the recoil impulse. For 9mm I like 13#'s and 15#'s for 40. The heavy 20# recoil springs cause the front sight to dip below the targetafter the shot. I need the front sight to return to the exact same spot.

pklin1297
03-08-2007, 11:15 AM
I haven't tried the tungsten rods yet in my Glock so I will try that. I did cut a few coils off of the factory recoil spring so it is lighter, but I will replace with the 13# to see what the difference is. It is just incredible to see Rob Leatham shoot a full size .45 ACP as if he was shooting a .22lr... :D
I have started shooting with the Isosceles stance and have found that it definitely tames recoil better, but I also find my arms locking straight more often than I'd like so I will have to work on that...

Yar
03-08-2007, 11:39 AM
While adding weight to the gun does help, and I do it myself it is very minor compared to good technique. There are two main factors that being cocking the support hand wrist and grip pressure.

The grip pressure on the shooting hand should be firm but not crushing. If it were a handshake it would be a firm handshake. The reason is if you crush grip with the shooting hand you will lose fine motor skill with the trigger finger. The support hand you can crush grip if you like.

Personally I don't think muzzle flip is as big as a deal as people make out. I prefer to let the gun recoil freely as long as it settles back on target quickly. I have one pistol in particular that flips violently but it actually settles back on target faster than my compensated pistol that shoots very flat.

Also a full size 1911 is going to have very little muzzle flip as 45acp is slow pushy round and the all steel gun absorbs much of the recoil. It is on the other hand a slow cycling pistol. I can see the slide move on a 1911.

M. Sage
03-08-2007, 6:25 PM
I've heard that most of your hand pressure - about 60% - should come from the support hand, too.

The first time I tried Isoscelese, I was really impressed at how it helped keep recoil down.

Mute
03-08-2007, 7:39 PM
Don't try to muscle your gun. What really helps is if you can practice shooting several rounds and try to establish a rhythm. I find that gives me faster and more consistent recovery from shot to shot.

icormba
03-08-2007, 7:43 PM
+4 on the practice statements!

newtothis
03-08-2007, 8:04 PM
Hello all,

Was just watching several YouTube videos on Rob Leatham, Tod Jarrett, and a few other IPSC shooters running through firing stages and I was noticing the very minimal recoil of their guns while shooting. I have shot an unlimited heavily modified 38 super 1911 and the recoil is almost like a .22 so I understand the minimal recoil there, but Rob Leatham was shooting I believe one of Springfield's production 1911s in one stage and the muzzle of the gun didn't move very much when he shot. Rob Leatham is one of the greatest shooters today but what is he doing to control the recoil so well? He loads all his own ammo so is a light-load .45 ACP one of the contributing factors here? I guess I would just like to know how to best "control" recoil for faster shooting... Any thoughts?

I think I saw a short video (by Leatham?) at Guns and Ammo(?) describing his technique. Sorry for the ?s - memory not what it used to be.

Kruzr
03-08-2007, 9:53 PM
Ammo has a great deal to do with it. Keep in mind that a power factor of 165 (to make major) is still 20%-25% less power than most factory ball ammo. Also keep in mind that these guys have some of the best pistolsmiths money can buy at their disposal.

Race guns are set up to shoot fast. They are timed for quick recoil and return to battery. It minimizes the recoil impulse even though it makes recoil force stronger. This lets the gun return to the sight postion faster. It's why lots of competition guns are set up with light springs and shok buffs. It does put more of a beating on the gun but those guns get worked over all the time.

Remember that Robbie or Todd or the other sponsored shooters don't have to buy new guns every 5 years so if something breaks or isn't right or the frame gets a bit battered, it's no sweat or money to them. :)

Black Majik
03-08-2007, 10:07 PM
It's amazing how much of a difference in recoil there is from an open gun with compensator and lightning cuts shooting light loads to a production pistol shooting full power factory loads. While there are advantages, there are simple techniques for recoil management. I had the opportunity to shoot a polygun (XD40) that had as much recoil as a .22. It was a gun built by Randy Lee @ Apex Tactical, you would swear that gun was a rimfire. Very quick on target and fell on target very easily.

I personally shoot in a modern isosceles stance, with a high thumb grip. The high thumb grip allows the bore to sit slightly lower in the hand, which helps with muzzle rise. I apply about a 60/40 pressure on the grip with my left/right hand respectively. Of course, don't fight the recoil. Let the recoil take it's course and fall back on target. Single sight picture for each shot: prep trigger, break the shot, reset before the front sight falls back on target and do it all over again.