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View Full Version : MORE VIDEO ADDED: Anderson Rifles AM15, "The Naked Gun 2.5"


ZombieTactics
12-18-2011, 12:26 PM
The manufacturer claims that this rifle requires ZERO lubrication evvaaar. I'll be throwing 500 to 1k rounds through it this weekend, just to see ...

vdyJHpV4MN4

freonr22
12-18-2011, 12:37 PM
First

PsychGuy274
12-18-2011, 1:21 PM
Tagged for interest.

Cali-Shooter
12-18-2011, 1:26 PM
Informative endeavor. Be sure to keep us posted as to which type of ammunition you will be running if you know which brand it is. The results could be make or break!

dieselpower
12-18-2011, 1:27 PM
Calling Richard Erichsen to the front of the store please...

Is this a Melonite QPQ treatment?

Ubermcoupe
12-18-2011, 1:31 PM
First I’ve seen of it.

More here:
http://www.rf85.com/

FourLoko
12-18-2011, 1:32 PM
hope you have someone to help you load those 10 rounders, over and over

IFL

nani
12-18-2011, 1:38 PM
Interesting. Is it time for more random/Wolf ammo testing? :-)

dieselpower
12-18-2011, 2:16 PM
there are many negative threads on these. some testing by a non-bias source will be valuable.

starsnuffer
12-18-2011, 2:51 PM
You should do some kind of "pass it around" testing. 1000 rounds is just about enough to break in a gun, not really a test of any kind as reliability goes. Put nice optics on it so people will want to use it, and "lend" it out to people taking courses or whatnot for a year or so and report back.


-W

Don29palms
12-18-2011, 2:55 PM
there are many negative threads on these. some testing by a non-bias source will be valuable.

That's interesting. I haven't seen anything negative about Anderson Mfg. Do you have any links off hand?

dieselpower
12-18-2011, 3:23 PM
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520530_Anderson_Manufacturing.html
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81263

Quinc
12-18-2011, 3:45 PM
Micro slicked?

alfred1222
12-18-2011, 3:49 PM
interesting, let us know what happens.

nick
12-18-2011, 3:51 PM
Calling Richard Erichsen to the front of the store please...

Is this a Melonite QPQ treatment?

Not likely. Melonite isn't self-lubricating, and besides, how do you apply this to aluminum in the upper?

ZombieTactics
12-18-2011, 4:33 PM
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520530_Anderson_Manufacturing.html
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81263

Excellent material. I suggest people read it completely. Of course you have the usual barfcom traditionalists who hate anything that doesn't say "Colt" on it, but some of the criticisms are apt. It's also interesting to note that some apparently experienced individuals are somewhat impressed. Progress is never pretty.

themailman
12-18-2011, 4:50 PM
M4C has a great thread on this. They have one of their Industry Professionals currently testing the rifle, and also helping AM get up to par. It seems they have a long ways to go, but they are on to something. As we all know, no AR15 is ever self lubricating, but coatings that help keep it cleaner are always better. Please, dont run your AR15 dry, no matter what the MFG says.

Richard Erichsen
12-18-2011, 6:47 PM
The manufacturer claims that this rifle requires ZERO lubrication evvaaar. I'll be throwing 500 to 1k rounds through it this weekend, just to see ...

vdyJHpV4MN4

Details are still a bit sketchy, but the fact that both steel and aluminum parts are being treated tells me this is something other than a plating or nitriding process. They call it RF-85 metal conditioning treatment, which most closely matches a thin film dry lubricant coating. What I've just found is that this is based on specific unnamed calcium compounds and works on most metals, except carbides.

Initially their applications were limited to motorsports but they are branching out. Oakridge National Laboratories did testing on several components including firearms and found some promising results. It appears the patent holders (Better Than New - BTN) strategically partner with companies to introduce the public to their RF-85 coatings (with some improved product in the works according to the article) and per the "85" currently reduces the coefficient of friction by 85%. Anderson Rifles appears to be just such an arrangement with BTN to get publicity. Anderson Rifles is small outfit, so they couldn't really be making any money on it, but the marketing value alone has got buzz for both companies so it appears to have worked out. It's not easy to stand out in the sea of AR15 vendors, a dry lube coating just might do the trick.

Keep in mind there are a lot of dry film lube coatings out there, this is just one of them. I had been looking into Birdson's "Black T" and now "Super T" formulations used in marine and dry lubrication applications for engines, firearms and rust inhibition (which isn't really mentioned for the RF-85 treatment) that has similar dry lubrication qualities. There are at least a half dozen others, many with high profile users and adherents depending on application.

There may be something to it, but there is a degree of showmanship with the dry lube benefits. Other than this treatment, it doesn't appear the AM15 is all that special.

R

Richard Erichsen
12-18-2011, 7:00 PM
Not likely. Melonite isn't self-lubricating, and besides, how do you apply this to aluminum in the upper?

As you suspected, you can't use QPQ on aluminum. Melonite/Isonite/Tufftride/Tennifer are applied at sub-critical temperatures exceeding 1600 F - hot enough to melt aluminum. This is a dry lubricant film, not a case hardening and polishing process like QP/QPQ. What the temperatures are or the chemical process used to create a surface to which it can be bonding appears to be proprietary information. I know that for many dry film processes the first step is stripping, then cleaning and then etching to provide a surface against which the thin film can gain some purchase and remain bonded for the life of the thin film.

Like all thin film coatings, they can and do wear off, especially along edges and at high bearing intersections. Throw some fine silica powder into an FCG with a thin film and it will deteriorate rather quickly, though as a practical matter that sort of test would duplicate many thousands of hours of exposure to a very sandy/dusty environment with a particularly aggressive type of fine silica sand. Calcium compounds are not known for their hardness and don't replace hard anodizing for aluminum, traditional case hardening/through hardening of steel or nitrocarburizing.

R

dieselpower
12-18-2011, 7:30 PM
Details are still a bit sketchy, but the fact that both steel and aluminum parts are being treated tells me this is something other than a plating or nitriding process. They call it RF-85 metal conditioning treatment, which most closely matches a thin film dry lubricant coating. What I've just found is that this is based on specific unnamed calcium compounds and works on most metals, except carbides.

Initially their applications were limited to motorsports but they are branching out. Oakridge National Laboratories did testing on several components including firearms and found some promising results. It appears the patent holders (Better Than New - BTN) strategically partner with companies to introduce the public to their RF-85 coatings (with some improved product in the works according to the article) and per the "85" currently reduces the coefficient of friction by 85%. Anderson Rifles appears to be just such an arrangement with BTN to get publicity. Anderson Rifles is small outfit, so they couldn't really be making any money on it, but the marketing value alone has got buzz for both companies so it appears to have worked out. It's not easy to stand out in the sea of AR15 vendors, a dry lube coating just might do the trick.

Keep in mind there are a lot of dry film lube coatings out there, this is just one of them. I had been looking into Birdson's "Black T" and now "Super T" formulations used in marine and dry lubrication applications for engines, firearms and rust inhibition (which isn't really mentioned for the RF-85 treatment) that has similar dry lubrication qualities. There are at least a half dozen others, many with high profile users and adherents depending on application.

There may be something to it, but there is a degree of showmanship with the dry lube benefits. Other than this treatment, it doesn't appear the AM15 is all that special.

R

so if ZT treats this rifle like he did with the S&W M&P, he's gonna kill it in days.. .. LOL.

ZombieTactics
12-19-2011, 11:38 AM
so if ZT treats this rifle like he did with the S&W M&P, he's gonna kill it in days.. .. LOL.

Lol, I wish I had the chance to do so! Here's my take at 1k rounds with zero lubrication:

aXO07hVFhhk

dieselpower
12-19-2011, 12:00 PM
Lol, I wish I had the chance to do so! Here's my take at 1k rounds with zero lubrication:

aXO07hVFhhk

please clarify... What did you spray that Cleaning compound on and wipe off? The outside of the rifle or the BCG?

1000 rounds is a good start. I normally dont open my rifle up for anything under 1500. I keep a running total in my range book. If I am firing .22lr from a conversion bolt, thats a different story.

If the carbon wasn't sticking on the inside, then it should have been laying on the bottom of the lower near the trigger. A Q-tip would have confirmed that.

Looking good as far as I am concerned.

zfields
12-19-2011, 12:08 PM
Interesting stuff.

I wonder if I can get my AK coated in this stuff :68:

dieselpower
12-19-2011, 12:10 PM
Interesting stuff.

I wonder if I can get my AK coated in this stuff :68:

Yes, Mr Erichsen is looking into another dry thin coating he says looks even better. Ask him.

ZombieTactics
12-19-2011, 12:10 PM
please clarify... What did you spray that Cleaning compound on and wipe off? The outside of the rifle or the BCG? ...

You mean the M7, errr ... MP7 ... uhhh ... pro7P ... dammit! :facepalm: (MPro7 is what I was trying to spit out, of course)

Outside of the Bolt Carrier. The Bolt itself was dirtier of course, but quite a bit less than I would expect.

zfields
12-19-2011, 12:13 PM
Yes, Mr Erichsen is looking into another dry thin coating he says looks even better. Ask him.

I keep up on his post pretty well, although a lot of it goes way over my head.


Im looking mainly towards something to coat a 5.45x39 with, so I dont need to mess with cleaning.



Yes, I'm that lazy.

dieselpower
12-19-2011, 12:17 PM
You mean the M7, errr ... MP7 ... uhhh ... pro7P ... dammit! :facepalm: (MPro7 is what I was trying to spit out, of course)

Outside of the Bolt Carrier. The Bolt itself was dirtier of course, but quite a bit less than I would expect.

doesnt Anderson say NOT to use anything but soap and water? Am I missing something here? I guess not knowing what MPro7 is, is causing confusion for me. I will google it.

ZT.... its a little more than soap and water my friend...MSDS MPro7 (http://www.mpro7.com/documents/M-Pro%207%20Gun%20Cleaner%20MSDS.pdf)

Ubermcoupe
12-19-2011, 12:34 PM
Bummer that you have to give it back so soon, I am definitely interested in seeing how the AM 15 will look after 5000/10000 rounds. :D (Quite a test, I know)

LBDamned
12-19-2011, 12:41 PM
interesting stuff!... I'm gonna keep an eye on this product - if it holds up, I'll be buying an Anderson AR15 in a few months!

BTW - as per their instructions - typically cleaning is as simple as wiping with moist cloth, then dry cloth... if further cleaning is needed, use soap & water... That is awesome!

I hope the MPro7 didnt harm the finish... I can't imagine it did though - if so, I dont think that finish would last long anyway. Probably not a good idea to make a habit of it.

21SF
12-19-2011, 1:24 PM
I have ran 1k with just NB BCG, thats nothing....Unless you gotta pay for the ammo...

ZombieTactics
12-19-2011, 2:47 PM
doesnt Anderson say NOT to use anything but soap and water? Not AFAIK, although they seem to indicate you shouldn't neeeeeed anything more than soap-n-water.

... I guess not knowing what MPro7 is, is causing confusion for me.
Stunned.

ZT.... its a little more than soap and water my friend...
Did I ever say otherwise?

ZombieTactics
12-19-2011, 2:50 PM
I have ran 1k with just NB BCG, thats nothing ... I'm assuming that NB = Nickel Boron in this case, and I imagine it performs exactly as you have stated ... not surprising.

dieselpower
12-19-2011, 2:59 PM
Not AFAIK, although they seem to indicate you shouldn't neeeeeed anything more than soap-n-water.


Stunned.


Did I ever say otherwise?

I was operating under the assumption that cleaning with a chemical compound other than soap and water could remove the dry film. As Mr Erichsen has stated, this can be stripped off the surface if you are not careful.

Richard Erichsen
12-19-2011, 3:10 PM
Interesting stuff.

I wonder if I can get my AK coated in this stuff :68:

You can, but it's not the only game in town. Look up the following:

A. "Coatings" (applied with special process)
* Birdsong's Black T
* Tripp's CobraCoat
* Wilson's Armor-Tuff
* Metacol III
* Molybdendum disulphide or tungsten disulphide
* PTFE with various cute names (Black Ice)
B. Nitrocarburizing/Case Hardening (steel only)
* Melonite/Isonite/Tufftride/Tennifer QP/QPQ
* Gas "soft" nitriding and gas "hard" nitriding
C. Vapor Deposition / Electro-Plating
* Titanium nitride
* Hard chrome
* Boron carbide

Some of these processes/coatings have the key features of a desirable color, wear resistance, dry lubrication qualities, and corrosion resistance, some have more dry lubrication and corrosion resistance qualities with lesser wear resistance or vice versa, they are not equivalent. You would not, for example, use boron carbide on the receiver as a general rule, but you might on the bolt, bolt carrier and gas system components. For something you want applied everywhere for color, specific environmental protection, dry lubrication and so on, I'd use Black T, Armor-Tuff, Black Ice or CobraCoat, with Black T at the top of my list and the others tied for a distant second. For just bolt groups and gas system components, I'd probably use melonite/isonite/tufftride/tennifer (same basic process) QP or QPQ depending on the steel I was treating. Nothing beats Black T for exposure to salt spray. They terminated the test at some 7500 hours when they could find no signs of corrosion. For dry lubrication, Black T was reported by a well regarded user as effectively dropping (unexpectedly) the trigger pull to below what regulations required for competing in IPSC competition. The trigger had to be "redone" with stronger springs and the likes to get the pull back up to the regulation. Excellent color, unbeatable corrosion resistance and a free "trigger job" thanks to the lubricating qualities. Users tell me they actually do NOT grease or oil their weapons, they perform best without it. I'd like to try that myself. Even high performance motors still have an oil circulation system, but of course that's serving more functions than just lubrication.

R

zfields
12-19-2011, 3:23 PM
Id mainly be looking for resistance to the compounds used in corrosive primers. I have no issue lubricating the weapon, Just to lazy to do a full clean everytime I go shoot.

Viagrow
12-19-2011, 8:13 PM
I have a couple ARs with Gunkote and Ceracoat that don't need lube. Wonder if it's the same thing?

ZombieTactics
12-20-2011, 8:04 AM
I was operating under the assumption that cleaning with a chemical compound other than soap and water could remove the dry film. As Mr Erichsen has stated, this can be stripped off the surface if you are not careful.

I understand the point, and it's a good one to bring up. The company rep indicated there'd be no problem with any typical gun cleaning products.

dieselpower
12-20-2011, 2:28 PM
I understand the point, and it's a good one to bring up. The company rep indicated there'd be no problem with any typical gun cleaning products.

Thats cool then...but sorta a reverse chicken and egg... the treatment makes it so I dont have to clean with a cleaner, yet using a cleaner is ok....

what happens if you oil it? I undertsands it doesnt need oil...but.....:p

LBDamned
12-20-2011, 3:32 PM
Thats cool then...but sorta a reverse chicken and egg... the treatment makes it so I dont have to clean with a cleaner, yet using a cleaner is ok....

what happens if you oil it? I undertsands it doesnt need oil...but.....:p

it explicitly says "not" to oil... and even though it says to use soap & water to clean, it doent say "not" to use solvents (or typical gun cleaner)...

Too bad ZT cant do the torture test with this rifle like he can with the M&P15... it would be interesting to see what happens when you do oil it... I wonder if it attracts zombies or something :confused::rolleyes:

Also would like to see how it hold up to long term solvent cleaning...

dieselpower
12-20-2011, 3:55 PM
it explicitly says "not" to oil... and even though it says to use soap & water to clean, it doent say "not" to use solvents (or typical gun cleaner)...

Too bad ZT cant do the torture test with this rifle like he can with the M&P15... it would be interesting to see what happens when you do oil it... I wonder if it attracts zombies or something :confused::rolleyes:

Also would like to see how it hold up to long term solvent cleaning...

if he says he went 1K and didn't have noticeable build up, I am willing to say the test was a success. I would like to see 5 or 6 weekends of shooting 500 only dunking the rifle in some soapy water after 2K rounds and see what time does.

My rifle can only get to about 200 rounds bone dry, ( I have done it) so this was a good showing for the dry film lube.

goodlookin1
12-21-2011, 6:24 AM
You guys and your hot, dirty, oil drying DI setups :D

This does sound interesting though. However, I am a bit leery of new stuff like "coatings" and whatnot....even though it's supposedly not a coating. For anything like this to become mainstream, it must be proven over and over and over through many trials. The barfcom AR-15 "originalists" are the people that might kill such an idea as, unfortunately, people tend to believe what they say (for some reason :facepalm:).

ZombieTactics
12-21-2011, 9:52 AM
if he says he went 1K and didn't have noticeable build up, I am willing to say the test was a success. I would like to see 5 or 6 weekends of shooting 500 only dunking the rifle in some soapy water after 2K rounds and see what time does.
Me too. I am trying to convince them to lend me a rifle to abuse, lol.

My rifle can only get to about 200 rounds bone dry, ( I have done it) so this was a good showing for the dry film lube. Good data point to know.

Richard Erichsen
12-22-2011, 8:14 PM
Id mainly be looking for resistance to the compounds used in corrosive primers. I have no issue lubricating the weapon, Just to lazy to do a full clean everytime I go shoot.

For your purposes, a barrel bore/chamber and gas system that is either hard chromed or melonite QPQ treated.

R

Richard Erichsen
12-22-2011, 8:19 PM
I was operating under the assumption that cleaning with a chemical compound other than soap and water could remove the dry film. As Mr Erichsen has stated, this can be stripped off the surface if you are not careful.

I would be cautious about abrasive cleaners with most coatings. A chemical cleaner recommended by the manufacturer for the coating (BTN) would be the only safe choice. There isn't much track record to go by to start experimenting with cleaners not tested by the coating developer.

R

Richard Erichsen
12-22-2011, 8:26 PM
I have a couple ARs with Gunkote and Ceracoat that don't need lube. Wonder if it's the same thing?

I've heard that and had a bolt sprayed and baked in black ceracoat that I haven't tried yet. While I'd agree there are some dry lube properties in the newer Gunkote, Duracoat and Ceracoat compositions (the websites go into some detail about this new benefit), it's not a "thin film" dry lubricating coating in the true sense, more of an additive to enhance performance in a combined color/corrosion protective coating. A true thin film is thin enough it can be applied to fine threads and not peel off or bind when screwed in. The method of preparation and how it bonds is also very different from paint-on applications.

If you are getting good performance with it, then you saved yourself the extra time and cost of using different coatings in different places. One obvious advantage is that it can be touched up and inexpensively restored if and when it wears out.

R

Richard Erichsen
12-22-2011, 8:33 PM
Thats cool then...but sorta a reverse chicken and egg... the treatment makes it so I dont have to clean with a cleaner, yet using a cleaner is ok....

what happens if you oil it? I undertsands it doesnt need oil...but.....:p

When a manufacturer tells you "no oil" they mean it. The base may be oil soluble, so any oil you add could actually cause it to degrade, even if slowly. If it has the kinds of lubricity the name suggests, you shouldn't need oil. One of the biggest downsides of oil is it's affinity for dust, swarf and sand. If you take the oil out of the equation the dust, sand and so on will still be in there, but it should fall away from, or through, any metal parts that don't physically capture it in their recesses. Close fitting components are still at risk. You could clean these with a blast of compressed air followed by whatever warm water/soap/approved solvent BTN recommends.

R

zfields
12-22-2011, 8:37 PM
For your purposes, a barrel bore/chamber and gas system that is either hard chromed or melonite QPQ treated.

R

Thanks, Ill keep that in mind, hopefully next year will be AK 74 time.

LBDamned
01-13-2012, 11:14 PM
ZT did you give the gun back or put it through more torture?...