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View Full Version : Question on tactical carbine class


Llengih
12-15-2011, 6:33 AM
I spoke with an instructor at one of our local firearms training academies and asked him if they allow the use of OLL ARs at their tactical carbine classes. He said that they absolutely do and that it is legal(per DOJ) at their training to defeat the bullet buttons and use standard capacity magazines as long as you only do so at their training.

Does this sound right to you guys? I'd like to take their training course but I also want to stay legal.

Thanks.

-hanko
12-15-2011, 6:57 AM
I spoke with an instructor at one of our local firearms training academies and asked him if they allow the use of OLL ARs at their tactical carbine classes. He said that they absolutely do and that it is legal(per DOJ) at their training to defeat the bullet buttons and use standard capacity magazines as long as you only do so at their training.

Does this sound right to you guys? I'd like to take their training course but I also want to stay legal.

Thanks.
sounds like they're fos, unless the training is outside CA OR they have a written exemption from the doj for classes in CA.

Read the law...do you see anything that allows training exceptions??

-hanko

Llengih
12-15-2011, 7:12 AM
I have read the law, and it did sound fishy to me that's why I'm asking here.

SJgunguy24
12-15-2011, 7:24 AM
There is no exemption, even for training purposes, not even for LEO's. The only thing close that I can think of would be for out of state LEOs and competitors but even then importing high caps is still illegal unless they have a permit or were here before the ban.
Run a featureless or practice working that mag lock.

Bete Noire
12-15-2011, 7:34 AM
I had also heard that there may be exemption if the facility has some sort of class 3 weapons license or equivalent. Participants covered under their license or some BS. I doubt the trainer would open themselves up to a Cal DOJ raid but ??

SJgunguy24
12-15-2011, 7:42 AM
I had also heard that there may be exemption if the facility has some sort of class 3 weapons license or equivalent. Participants covered under their license or some BS. I doubt the trainer would open themselves up to a Cal DOJ raid but ??

Then you would train with their guns which would all have AW paper. If you remove a mag lock, there better not be features on that gun. I know that students in some classes, even with LEOs attending, remove and reinstall the standard mag catches so they can keep up.
Don't do that. If you like men that much to have your freedom hinge on what that dude says(who makes money off you attending his class) then be my guest.

ns3v3n
12-15-2011, 12:20 PM
Even if you can train without your bb and standard cap magazines, what good will that do you??? Because in reality, you live in CA and you should train with what you have, which is a OLL with a bb and 10 rounds. So you should train with that because when SHTF/HD, that's all you'll have. Just my 2cent. Either that, or go featureless and forget the whole bb/10rd mag.

Llengih
12-15-2011, 12:25 PM
Anyone here good at legal speak wanna volunteer to contact these guys and give them a heads up that what they are doing is violating the law? I'd hate to see a bunch of people get in trouble and do some damage to the whole OLL movement.

Ubermcoupe
12-15-2011, 12:30 PM
I have never heard of such exemption for training purposes.

zfields
12-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Honestly, if they are so wrong on CA law that they would say that, they probably shouldn't be training anyone.

1911su16b870
12-15-2011, 1:41 PM
...it is legal (per DOJ) at their training to defeat the bullet buttons and use standard capacity magazines as long as you only do so at their training...

It is not legal per CA law to defeat the BB without first making the rifle featureless.

HK Dave
12-15-2011, 1:47 PM
Even if you can train without your bb and standard cap magazines, what good will that do you??? Because in reality, you live in CA and you should train with what you have, which is a OLL with a bb and 10 rounds. So you should train with that because when SHTF/HD, that's all you'll have. Just my 2cent. Either that, or go featureless and forget the whole bb/10rd mag.

You saying that if you were in a LIFE AND DEATH situation, you'd use your bullet buttoned rifle? :)

njineermike
12-15-2011, 1:49 PM
Honestly, if they are so wrong on CA law that they would say that, they probably shouldn't be training anyone.

As thought the DOJ's knowledge has proven to be any more accurrate ?

zfields
12-15-2011, 1:57 PM
As thought the DOJ's knowledge has proven to be any more accurrate ?

You don't see me giving the DOJ any kudos do you?

ns3v3n
12-15-2011, 3:16 PM
You saying that if you were in a LIFE AND DEATH situation, you'd use your bullet buttoned rifle? :)

Mine is a featureless AK, but that's another thread :D

hcbr
12-15-2011, 4:10 PM
whuuuuuuuuh!?!... yeah i agree, don't think the laws can bend that easily just for them because of training

MongooseV8
12-15-2011, 5:48 PM
I think Id cross them off my list of possible carbine classes....

Flying Bones
12-15-2011, 7:15 PM
Or go featureless and use your regular mag release with whatever legally owned mags you have.

dieselpower
12-15-2011, 7:34 PM
there is an exemption for competitions, but I think its only for people bringing AWs into CA and there are other requirements. We talked about this 3 years ago. This company has been doing this all this time, LEO and DoJ have BEEN ignoring them... I would not want to be in the class where they decide NOT to. Then again they say they have permission so if its on file even if DoJ doesn't like it, I think they must rescind their authorization before they kick in a door.

1911su16b870
12-15-2011, 7:38 PM
It would be really, really nice if someone could post up a pdf of that CA DOJ written authorization! :D

Llengih
12-15-2011, 8:24 PM
Well to be honest with you, I don't wanna be part of no "iffy" situation. Think I'll check out another course.

shortround1
12-15-2011, 9:59 PM
There is no exemption, even for training purposes, not even for LEO's. The only thing close that I can think of would be for out of state LEOs and competitors but even then importing high caps is still illegal unless they have a permit or were here before the ban.
Run a featureless or practice working that mag lock.

Do you really think that Ca LE officers use 10 round mags and bullet buttons? Those laws are for law abiding citizens like us, cops and criminals don't follow those rules.

zfields
12-15-2011, 10:00 PM
Do you really think that Ca LE officers use 10 round mags and bullet buttons? Those laws are for law abiding citizens like us, cops and criminals don't follow those rules.

Plenty do. Quite a few on this board infact.

shortround1
12-15-2011, 10:03 PM
So if a cop arrives at the scene of a hostage situation, opens his trunk, and gets his ar out... it's going to have a 10 round fixed magazine? Doubtful.

zfields
12-15-2011, 10:05 PM
So if a cop arrives at the scene of a hostage situation, opens his trunk, and gets his ar out... it's going to have a 10 round fixed magazine? Doubtful.

You are talking about a duty weapon, that is completely different then the personally owned weapon I was referring to.

They are no violating any law, since there is an exception written in.

zfields
12-15-2011, 10:07 PM
Oh, and most of them are on the rack these days : )

I cant think of anyone who still carries it in the trunk!

shortround1
12-15-2011, 10:09 PM
You are talking about a duty weapon, that is completely different then the personally owned weapon I was referring to.


Ok, understood. But the thread was in regards to training, and if a cop is training with his weapon, I don't see them neutering it to create a civilian rifle. But my hat's off to any leo that neuters his personal rifles to be like ours.

shortround1
12-15-2011, 10:12 PM
Oh, and most of them are on the rack these days : )

I cant think of anyone who still carries it in the trunk!

Ok, I'm still usually seeing the shotgun in the rack, but I believe you.

zfields
12-15-2011, 10:14 PM
Ok, heres the thing.

Most the AW exempt rifles are owned by the dept. An officers personal rifle, that is not signed off for duty use, AW laws are applied, so BB, 10 round mags etc.

If an officer takes a course, and is not using a duty rifle, they SHOULD be using a CA compliant rifle. Just like a non LEO.

Its not like being allowed to buy off roster guns and 10+ mags for personal use.

zfields
12-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Ok, I'm still usually seeing the shotgun in the rack, but I believe you.

Might just be your area. Up where I was at everyone was switched over.

dieselpower
12-15-2011, 10:16 PM
12280. (a)
(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any .50 BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for four, six, or eight years.

(k) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to

(C) The assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle is possessed at any of the following locations:

(3) The match or competition is sponsored by, conducted under the auspices of, or approved by, a law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that fosters proficiency in, or promotes education about, firearms.



this is where this all comes from. they believe their letter allows them to have students remove maglocks and manufacture AWs for the class.

shortround1
12-15-2011, 10:16 PM
Ok, heres the thing.

Most the AW exempt rifles are owned by the dept. An officers personal rifle, that is not signed off for duty use, AW laws are applied, so BB, 10 round mags etc.

If an officer takes a course, and is not using a duty rifle, they SHOULD be using a CA compliant rifle. Just like a non LEO.

Its not like being allowed to buy off roster guns and 10+ mags for personal use.

Ok, fair enough.

vintagearms
12-15-2011, 10:21 PM
Do you really think that Ca LE officers use 10 round mags and bullet buttons? Those laws are for law abiding citizens like us, cops and criminals don't follow those rules.

When our PD trains, they are using PD authorized weapons and not personal guns.

To the OP, I would choose another trainer who follows the letter of the law.

1911su16b870
12-16-2011, 9:26 AM
Do you really think that Ca LE officers use 10 round mags and bullet buttons? Those laws are for law abiding citizens like us, cops and criminals don't follow those rules.

Calling BS on this one...you do not know what you are writing about... :icon_bs: :facepalm:

If a LE drives up to a crime scene and deploys his department AR, no law was broken.

luchador768
12-16-2011, 11:28 AM
There are great places out of state, AZ and NV. Drive a little and train with an AR in it's free state configuration. If you can't leave the state train with a featureless. If you only have ten rounders you can still drop them in a featureless.

zombiescanlearn
12-16-2011, 11:33 AM
To the OP, I would choose another trainer who follows the letter of the law.

+1, I don't think the trainer knows what he is talking about. No exemption from the law just because you're taking a class. You should learn to use your weapons the way it's going to be deployed anyway. So, if you're in CA, learn to use it with all the constraints placed on your weapon system.

Matt@AimSportsInc
12-16-2011, 12:07 PM
Do what I did: run a .22lr conversion in your AR. It allows you to have a detatchable magazine, saves a ton of money on ammo, and allows you to keep up with the people using AW's.

You will have to reload more often with the 10rd mags, but hey - they teach tactical reload drills at the course, so you will be an expert at them by the end of the day :)

Ubermcoupe
12-16-2011, 12:53 PM
Oh, and most of them are on the rack these days : )

I cant think of anyone who still carries it in the trunk!

Not to derail the thread or :troll: on your post but plenty of the guys I know carry their rifles in the trunk, right next to their plate carriers and active shooter bags.
My one buddy “Joe” says its just easier to get to from the trunk rather than fiddling around in the center console area. :shrug:

Striker
12-16-2011, 1:21 PM
I spoke with an instructor at one of our local firearms training academies and asked him if they allow the use of OLL ARs at their tactical carbine classes. He said that they absolutely do and that it is legal(per DOJ) at their training to defeat the bullet buttons and use standard capacity magazines as long as you only do so at their training.

Does this sound right to you guys? I'd like to take their training course but I also want to stay legal.

Thanks.

If it were me and it bothered me as much as it seems to bother you, I would just go train in Nevada, Arizona or Oregon. It will solve your dilemma. I know Redback One has a class in Nevada this year as does Pat McNamara. Almost everyone does a class or two in Arizona. Just go to Grey Group training and look for a class that works for you. Those guys all have really good credentials.

zfields
12-16-2011, 2:05 PM
Not to derail the thread or :troll: on your post but plenty of the guys I know carry their rifles in the trunk, right next to their plate carriers and active shooter bags.
My one buddy “Joe” says its just easier to get to from the trunk rather than fiddling around in the center console area. :shrug:

Different areas, different ways they do things.

Dept I worked at (was a non sworn) required they were in the rack. Couple depts in the area same thing.

Hell, I cant think of anyone that plates in there cars, except one guy who was on the tac team.

zombiescanlearn
12-16-2011, 5:57 PM
If it were me and it bothered me as much as it seems to bother you, I would just go train in Nevada, Arizona or Oregon. It will solve your dilemma. I know Redback One has a class in Nevada this year as does Pat McNamara. Almost everyone does a class or two in Arizona. Just go to Grey Group training and look for a class that works for you. Those guys all have really good credentials.

Yeah, but if he lives in CA, he should at least get a little practice on dealing with the BB. Wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?

Llengih
12-16-2011, 6:44 PM
I've got no problem with using a bullet button in the class. To be honest with you, I was mostly interested in taking a carbine class because it sounded like a lot of fun. Pretty sure I would still have fun doing it with the bullet button and it would also get me more proficient on using the bullet button in a bad situation.

Reason I really asked the question in this forum was because the instructor made it sound like that was the way they would want me to train if I took their class(no bullet button).

I think I'll just seek other training like I mentioned earlier.

Oh, and Striker, my only real dilemma was making sure I do things within the letter of the law. Dropping a mag without a tool and using standard capacity magazines sure aren't worth me going to jail or not ever being able to use guns again.

NorCalK9.com
12-16-2011, 6:49 PM
Actually I dont know an officer that has a bb on his or her AR, they have their agency sign off on them when they buy the rifle

Gnome
12-16-2011, 10:44 PM
Actually I dont know an officer that has a bb on his or her AR, they have their agency sign off on them when they buy the rifle

Not every LE agency is willing to issue a letter to their officers. So, if LEOs want to own their personal ARs, it is in the same configuration as everyone else in California (Bullet Button/Raddlock). I like my guns, and more importantly, my job.