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View Full Version : Can we create a flow chart


freonr22
12-15-2011, 12:56 AM
For ar manufacturers?
From forgings, to components, to assemblers, to finishers, to furniture?
There are only so many companies. What.. Maybe 2-4 forging companies? Idk how many billet mfg cos.. How many barrel drillers are there? I guess less than 10? Etc etc

And who uses who

From there maybe a review type rating could be applied. Rob s' the chart is awesome, maybe some blending of the info WOULD STOP THE PISSING WARS?

Although they are entertaining to me

Disuss?

gmcal
12-15-2011, 1:22 AM
Quit your b****ing and just get a BCM. :)

Seriously, I think it may be next to impossible to do with nondisclosure agreements, trade secrets, etc.

freonr22
12-15-2011, 1:29 AM
Ohh. Wow. I didn't know. Because if brand b buys from manufacturer 1 and sometimes brand a buys from manufacturer 1 on a Friday late at night, no one will buy any more guns when they find out.

REALLY?

And gmcal, you are probably right and thanks for a nice response

freonr22
12-15-2011, 1:30 AM
Btw, dunno why, as I do know nothing, but I am partial to lmt

Merc1138
12-15-2011, 2:51 AM
You would never be able to include much information in such a flow-chart, here's why(seriously, it's in the 1st reply to the BCM thread, dunno how you missed it).



The firearm industry(and a lot of others that people don't realize) is a huge web of supply chains, materials, etc. A handful of companies make forgings for lowers, uppers, front sight posts, even charging handles. Other companies then buy those forgings and mill them, those milling companies may mill them as their own brand or even sell machine time to yet other companies to mill product. You may even have another company doing finishes, another doing assembly, and then delivery to the company actually selling the product with their final brand name on it, then onto direct sales or distributors and retailers.

Basically, most of it is kept secret. Why? Because the milling company doesn't want company A to know that they're also making products for company B that may have different specs and possibly different pricing. Companies A and B don't want their competitors to know where the supply is coming from and at what pricing.

There are forge marks, and sometimes cut marks that can give clues(and some have been documented) but they don't always exist and some of them may simply be unknown.

MrPlink
12-15-2011, 2:53 AM
Btw, dunno why, as I do know nothing, but I am partial to lmt

thats because you have class and good taste (guess what I like)

gmcal
12-15-2011, 3:49 AM
Btw, dunno why, as I do know nothing, but I am partial to lmt

Because they cryo their barrels :)

C4iGrant
12-15-2011, 6:02 AM
For ar manufacturers?
From forgings, to components, to assemblers, to finishers, to furniture?
There are only so many companies. What.. Maybe 2-4 forging companies? Idk how many billet mfg cos.. How many barrel drillers are there? I guess less than 10? Etc etc

And who uses who

From there maybe a review type rating could be applied. Rob s' the chart is awesome, maybe some blending of the info WOULD STOP THE PISSING WARS?

Although they are entertaining to me

Disuss?


Great idea, but to hard to put in place.

In regards to forgers, there 5 main ones that are used. The forgings are pretty much all the same (in regards to quality) IMHO. Where you can find differences is in the end machining company.

The waters are muddied even further when we realize that Company A can buy a bolt in the white, finish it and sell it. Company B can buy the same bolt in the white, HPT/MPI it and finish it. Company B also ran it through another series of QC checks and installed better springs, gas rings and extractor inserts. So the bolts came from the same company, but the end results were much different.




C4

dieselpower
12-15-2011, 6:27 AM
Robs's chart is full of crap. Its once again filled with BS info made to steer people away from one brand and toward another. It places value in one aspect of a thing, so to make that aspect appear to be better, when in reality that aspect is a personal choice. It also only highlights a certain mindset (the fantasy SEAL Operator who is battling hordes of zombies to save the virgin) and makes it look like that mindset is the only one that matters.

The trouble with your Chart idea is salesman will pervert it, then use it to sell product instead of staying neutral and allow the buyers full information.

The second the flavor of the month AR manufacture isn't shown to be the best for every person, the lies will start, the brand bashing will start, the half-truths will start flowing out of Salesman's mouths.

If RobS would have left his bias out of his second chart, that chart would have been a step in the right direction, but he failed to do so. He again only highlighted one aspect of the AR world, which makes it look like all the other aspects are "lower" on the desired list.

C4iGrant
12-15-2011, 9:35 AM
Robs's chart is full of crap. Its once again filled with BS info made to steer people away from one brand and toward another. It places value in one aspect of a thing, so to make that aspect appear to be better, when in reality that aspect is a personal choice. It also only highlights a certain mindset (the fantasy SEAL Operator who is battling hordes of zombies to save the virgin) and makes it look like that mindset is the only one that matters.

The trouble with your Chart idea is salesman will pervert it, then use it to sell product instead of staying neutral and allow the buyers full information.

The second the flavor of the month AR manufacture isn't shown to be the best for every person, the lies will start, the brand bashing will start, the half-truths will start flowing out of Salesman's mouths.

If RobS would have left his bias out of his second chart, that chart would have been a step in the right direction, but he failed to do so. He again only highlighted one aspect of the AR world, which makes it look like all the other aspects are "lower" on the desired list.

Wrong. The chart JUST LISTS the TDP specs (nothing more). So it isn't his "opinion" on what is good or bad, it is what the TDP calls out.

Rob also does NOT SELL AR's. He is neutral.

The purpose of the chart was NOT FOR every AR. He ONLY went after one specific style or type of AR (the M4). Could he do middy's and rifles? Sure, but to paint it like he neglected low end AR's is rather stupid.

I also know that the data that is in the GEN II chart came directly from the manufacturers themselves. He created a questionnaire and submitted it to just about every AR manufacturer on the planet. The companies you see in there are the ones that responded. Kind of makes you wonder why the lessor quality AR manufacturers didn't respond. ;)



C4

freonr22
12-15-2011, 11:51 AM
Because they cryo their barrels :)

well at least i stopped saying it as much gm :)

or maybe i like them because i got in the group buy and only paid $350

gmcal
12-15-2011, 5:16 PM
well at least i stopped saying it as much gm :)

or maybe i like them because i got in the group buy and only paid $350

Great quality at a great price. Doesn't get better than that. I was going to get the standard or patrol model (whatever the basic model is) but couldn't find any good deals at the time, so I got a BCM instead. I still lust for a LMT though.

icenix
12-15-2011, 7:32 PM
For ar manufacturers?
From forgings, to components, to assemblers, to finishers, to furniture?
There are only so many companies. What.. Maybe 2-4 forging companies? Idk how many billet mfg cos.. How many barrel drillers are there? I guess less than 10? Etc etc

And who uses who

From there maybe a review type rating could be applied. Rob s' the chart is awesome, maybe some blending of the info WOULD STOP THE PISSING WARS?

Although they are entertaining to me

Disuss?

I have seen a lot of "newbie" questions (including my own) on here and it seems like several new people pop up everyday, and then ask the same questions. I know that the vets on here try to help some, and some way more than others, but I can see how it could get old. I think it would be helpful to forget specific characteristics and just create a list of the top, middle, and bottom brands of things like barrels - it can be general/generic.

I also think it would be helpful if there was a chart/info sheet/something describing all the different attributes of an AR. I know that would help a lot of newbies as well. Like the different barrel specs, different LPKs, and maybe even info on where to start, etc. How about a list of companies to buy from without hesitation and a list to stay away from - not all have to be included.

I just bought my first AR (waiting on it now) but there is still a lot I don't know and at times it seemed like the more I read, the more confused I got about certain things and we all know the options are endless.

Anyway, I like the idea, but I doubt anyone would ever put it together, and even if someone did, you would have too many homers taking exception.

Striker
12-16-2011, 9:48 AM
For ar manufacturers?
From forgings, to components, to assemblers, to finishers, to furniture?
There are only so many companies. What.. Maybe 2-4 forging companies? Idk how many billet mfg cos.. How many barrel drillers are there? I guess less than 10? Etc etc

And who uses who

From there maybe a review type rating could be applied. Rob s' the chart is awesome, maybe some blending of the info WOULD STOP THE PISSING WARS?

Although they are entertaining to me

Disuss?

Rob's chart is great. I know there's been some posting about how it's biased. It's not. It's simply specifications, nothing more. Yes it is TDP specs, but isn't that what you want? A rifle setup to take huge amounts of abuse and keep going? If you're a hunter, look at an SPR. It's specifically made for longer distance precision shots. If you want gain more knowledge on the AR, join M4carbine. There are a lot of guys there with a lot of knowledge. But I'll say ahead of time, you need a thick skin to be a participating member because everyone gets called out there at one time or another. Rob's chart works for all, you just need a little knowledge to apply it.

The problem with a rating system is that it's one person's opinion. What you want to see is a multifaceted test with the harshest parameters and see from there how the rifles, as in a control group of a lot more than one, have held up. It isn't just specs you're looking for, but how well multiple units have worked. All those parts have to work together correctly which also means correct assembly etc. This takes a few rifles out there and a few years to accomplish.

I have seen a lot of "newbie" questions (including my own) on here and it seems like several new people pop up everyday, and then ask the same questions. I know that the vets on here try to help some, and some way more than others, but I can see how it could get old. I think it would be helpful to forget specific characteristics and just create a list of the top, middle, and bottom brands of things like barrels - it can be general/generic.

I also think it would be helpful if there was a chart/info sheet/something describing all the different attributes of an AR. I know that would help a lot of newbies as well. Like the different barrel specs, different LPKs, and maybe even info on where to start, etc. How about a list of companies to buy from without hesitation and a list to stay away from - not all have to be included.

I just bought my first AR (waiting on it now) but there is still a lot I don't know and at times it seemed like the more I read, the more confused I got about certain things and we all know the options are endless.

Anyway, I like the idea, but I doubt anyone would ever put it together, and even if someone did, you would have too many homers taking exception.

Honestly I think if you stick with Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Noveske or KAC for a DI rifle, you're fine. If it's a second rifle and you have one of the above brands, PSA is an interesting gamble right now. Good specs, good prices, but unproven. If you want piston, it's a little tougher. HK 416 is the only piston AR that's been tested. I hear rumbling of the new Colt being currently tested and seems to be doing well and some have said the new LWRC rifles are good as well. Choose a configuration that works for your purpose. A home defense rifle would have a different optic and a different type of barrel as compared to a hunting rifle. They are interchangeable, but choose by what your focus is for that rifle. You may find one rifle configuration is fine for you, I do. You may need a second one configured for something else and the beauty of the AR is that it's modular. So you can buy just an upper and use the same lower for both rifles if you wish.

Hope that's helpful for both of you.

Arisaka
12-16-2011, 10:57 AM
Is this really happening again?