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GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 10:40 AM
Hello all... I'm new here. Actually, I'm new to firearms in general, so please be patient! :)

I'm looking to get into target shooting, and eventually long distance shooting. I've been out with some friends at a local range (Lincoln) and I'm really liking it. I'm thinking of it like loud golf. :)

Anyway, one of the guns I'm looking at is this new Ruger Mini-14. It's suppose to overcome some of the accuracy issues of the older mini-14's. Guns and Ammo seemed to indicate it was pretty decent.

However, again because I'm new and live in California where the laws are confusing at best, I'm not sure if the Mini-14 would be legal here because of the thumb-hole stock. I keep seeing peope talk about how on this gun or that gun the thumb-hole or pistol grip or whatever is not legal.

So is the Ruger Mini-14 Target legal in CA

cseabass
03-06-2007, 10:41 AM
not with a thumb-hole stock.

bwiese
03-06-2007, 10:55 AM
However, again because I'm new and live in California where the laws are confusing at best, I'm not sure if the Mini-14 would be legal here because of the thumb-hole stock. I keep seeing peope talk about how on this gun or that gun the thumb-hole or pistol grip or whatever is not legal.

So is the Ruger Mini-14 Target legal in CA

If it's the one I've seen in the gun rags and has a thumbhole stock, no.

Semiautomatic centerfire rifles w/detachable magazines cannot have evil features like pistol grips, thumbhole stocks, folding stocks, flash hiders, etc.

Your FFL could have a non-CA FFL disassemble the stock from the Mini Target, and you could buy the disassembled rifle and put a Hogue or Butler Creek stock on it. You could also run it in a fixed-10-round magazine configuration to have the thumbhole stock, but a Mini14 ain't worth that grief.

IMHO the terminology "Mini-14 Target" is akin to statements like:
attractive fat chick
clean Taco Bell restroom
temporary tax increase
good inner-city school


If you really really want a Mini for some valid reason - the only one I can think of is that you might already have some working hicap mags - get a regular one and update it. Accuracy Systems of Odessa, TX does rebarreling of Mini14s and they most likely will be better than any Ruger Target Mini14.

Recommendation: go get an off-list AR with a MonsterMan grip or U15 stock and call it a day. Most base AR type rifles will outshoot most Minis any day.

GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 12:13 PM
If it's the one I've seen in the gun rags and has a thumbhole stock, no.

Recommendation: go get an off-list AR with a MonsterMan grip or U15 stock and call it a day. Most base AR type rifles will outshoot most Minis any day.

Hmmm... I'm not all that interested in an AR/Black gun. The reason I liked the idea of the Mini-14 Target is because I like that style stock.

So let me see if I have this straight:

1) If the gun is a semi-auto center fire, it can't have a thumb-hole stock
2) If it's a single shot, then it can have a thumb-hole stock
3) If it's a semi-auto, rimfire, it can have a thumb-hole stock (i.e. a 10/22 with a pistol grip or thumb-hole is OK because it a rimfire)?

4) So if I want a target style stock (what some people seem to refer to as a "sniper" style (PSG), but I think it's more like a biathalon style), it's gotta be single shot if it's a center fire?

Oswald2001
03-06-2007, 12:16 PM
For a longer range .223, I would use a bolt action.

For long range, I would still use a bolt action...only in .308.

GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 12:26 PM
For a longer range .223, I would use a bolt action.

For long range, I would still use a bolt action...only in .308.

That's what I've heard from enough people now that I think that's the direction I'll go.

So, are there any limits on bolt action rifles? For instance, as a bolt action is by definition not a semi-automatic, there's no limit on ammo capacity correct, stock configuration, etc.?

And as long as it's a bolt action, it's cool to mount a grenade launcher, right? :)

Cpl_Peters
03-06-2007, 1:00 PM
do what you may on a bolt gun. Other semi auto routes you could look into are the Kel-Tec Su-16 family of rifles...the A, B, and CA models are legal here.

bigkahuna
03-06-2007, 1:07 PM
And as long as it's a bolt action, it's cool to mount a grenade launcher, right? :)

I don't think a grenade launcher is legal in CA whether it's mounted on a bolt action or otherwise.

bwiese
03-06-2007, 1:08 PM
Hmmm... I'm not all that interested in an AR/Black gun.

Why not? More accesories, options, and accuracy.

The reason I liked the idea of the Mini-14 Target is because I like that style stock.

OK. Just fuhgeddabout that stock on a semiauto centerfire rifle that has a detachable magazine.

My comments in red:

So let me see if I have this straight:
1) If the gun is a semiauto center fire, it can't have a thumbhole stock CORRECT
2) If it's a single shot, then it can have a thumbhole stock CORRECT
3) If it's a semiauto rimfire it can have a thumbhole stock CORRECT
(i.e. a 10/22 with a pistol grip or thumbhole is OK because it a rimfire)?yes



4) So if I want a target style stock (what some people seem to refer to as a "sniper" style (PSG), but I think it's more like a biathalon style), it's gotta be single shot if it's a center fire?

It can indeed even be a semiauto, but it would have to have a fixed (non-detachable) 10-rd (or less) magazine. Many people here have built up AR and AK type rifles this way so they can have one or more 'evil features' (pistol grip, folding or thumbhole stock, etc.)

bwiese
03-06-2007, 1:10 PM
For a longer range .223, I would use a bolt action.

For long range, I would still use a bolt action...only in .308.

223 bolt actions are getting kinda moot since there are quite a few ARs that shoot about as well, and at reasonable prices.

FatKatMatt
03-06-2007, 1:13 PM
Just buy a stock mini and send it off to Gundoc at Great West Gunsmithing. A lot of customers of his are apparently getting 1 MOA and sub-MOA groups after he does his magic. If you want an accurate Mini I would go that route.

bwiese
03-06-2007, 1:13 PM
That's what I've heard from enough people now that I think that's the direction I'll go.

Fine, just be aware that you are self-limiting your options.

So, are there any limits on bolt action rifles?

Not appreciably, other than the Federal min. bbl length (16") and overall length (26").

For instance, as a bolt action is by definition not a semi-automatic, there's no limit on ammo capacity correct, stock configuration, etc.?

Ammo capacity is a function of the magazine, not the gun, even if the magazine is a fixed part of the gun.

You can't legally acquire any magazines holding more than 10 rounds, regardless of what the gun is. [I believe there's a tubular cowboy-gun exception, can't remember if that's restricted to rimfire or not...]



And as long as it's a bolt action, it's cool to mount a grenade launcher, right? :)

Nope. G/Ls are illegal in and of themselves. A bare G/L just sitting on your desk is a no-no, even if not attached to a gun.

GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 1:28 PM
Why not? More accesories, options, and accuracy.


Because I'm a noob, I'll ask...

So a .223 AR style rifle would be more accurate than say a .223 Winchester 700?

Yes, I know that a lot of you are shaking and/or slapping your heads at my naivete.

GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 1:33 PM
Nope. G/Ls are illegal in and of themselves. A bare G/L just sitting on your desk is a no-no, even if not attached to a gun.

Uh... I was joking. :)

bwiese
03-06-2007, 1:36 PM
So a .223 AR style rifle would be more accurate than say a .223 Winchester 700?

Not guaranteed, but quite a few folks here have 'bottom feeder' parts gun ARs that outshoot fancy expensive guns, when good ammo is used. The AR is just an accurate overall design.

[BTW It's a Remington 700, and a Winchester Model 70.]

Many hunting rifles (esp those that are not varmint rifles w/heavy bbls) aren't that accurate (esp when non match ammo used). Those guns are commonly 2" - 3" @ 100yds.

Most if not all bolt hunting rifles have slower rifling twists (often 1-in-12", whereas most ARs are 1in9" or even 1 in 7" twist)) that are not suitable for heavier bullets. Lotsa folks are shooting ARs w/77gr OTM bullets that are dead nuts accurate.

Remington produces varmint rifles and PSS (Police) and LTR (Light Tactical Rifle) in 223 that are very accurate. They're also as much $$$ as a typical AR build-up. Winchester has their somewhat similar Stealth line of rifles.

Oswald2001
03-06-2007, 1:37 PM
223 bolt actions are getting kinda moot since there are quite a few ARs that shoot about as well, and at reasonable prices.


Well....yes and no IMO.

If you are going for long distance, I would assume that you are wanting to squeeze every bit of performance out of the .223. An AR would not do this.

If you are looking to hit torso sized targets at 200-300 yards, a scoped AR will do that. If you want more precision, you need a bolt gun.

AR's are quite accurate, but, not like a bolt gun.

A tricked out AR will be very very accurate, but, still not like a tricked out bolt gun.


It depends on what application you have in mind.




Both are fun to shoot.

GunMonkey
03-06-2007, 1:47 PM
[BTW It's a Remington 700, and a Winchester Model 70.]


Oh man... I am a retard...:rolleyes:

bwiese
03-06-2007, 1:53 PM
If you are going for long distance, I would assume that you are wanting to squeeze every bit of performance out of the .223. An AR would not do this.


People are hitting targets nicely at 600yds with decent ARs.

Slightly higher-grade AR uppers can do same-hole groups @100yds with match ammo - and that accuracy carries on down the line.


If you are looking to hit torso sized targets at 200-300 yards, a scoped AR will do that.

Hell, people hit torso size targets with IRON SIGHTS at 600 yds.

If you want more precision, you need a bolt gun.

I feel this is misinformation. Sure there are some specific fancy high-end bolt guns that may edge out certain grade of AR. There are a-tad-above middling grades of AR that will outshoot many 223 bolt guns.

AR's are quite accurate, but, not like a bolt gun.

Since I have seen folks here use ARs to do same-hole groups, and see folks doing 300 yd stuff at 1/2MOA, that's in the bolt gun range. The differences there are far less specific to the type of platform (bolt vs semiauto) than on the specific individual qualities of the guns themselves.

From a benchrest standpoint, most hunting rifles ain't too hot.

ARs get their accuracy from a short-rotation-to-lockup bolt; bolt guns take a much bigger rotation, and cartridges are not necessarily seated as consistently as in the AR!

Shampoo
03-06-2007, 3:21 PM
How much do you want to spend? If you're willing to go north of $1K (but south of $2K) why even mess with .223? Sounds like you want accuracy at distance and semi-auto capability all in a CA legal package. Go with a Springfield Arms M1A. It's the whole enchilada. It'll shoot 1-2 MOA, or damn near it, all day long out to 5-600 yards for the novice shooter (much further with decent optics). The problem with the Rugers (I own 2, so not bashing here) is that even with the new design after a good warm up your groups will start to string. Not might string, not sometimes string - will string 6-10 inches or more. They'll still hold minute of bad guy, and if that's good enough for you then great. No need to talk about bolts, then.... anyway this happens with almost any rifle after it gets hot enough, but the Ruger tolerances for heat are notoriously low. Rugers are awesome pieces of hardware and I think hold their own against most AR's at 1-200 yards and for for a lot less $$$, but they're not target rifles unless you want to get the bull barrel, trigger job etc. and then you still are faced with the inherent limitations of .223. Yes, the AR will hit minute of evil do'er at 600 yards after you get good with it, from a bench rest, but how much punch is left in that little round after such a long trip? With .308, you know if you hit it, it's going down... no matter. If you want to punch paper, .223 is your round (at long distance, don't everyone get mad at me). Just adding a new option to the great feedback already. Glad I found this board.

ketec_owner
03-06-2007, 4:08 PM
Qoute:
* attractive fat chick
* clean Taco Bell restroom
* temporary tax increase
* good inner-city school

ROTFLMAO!

Oswald2001
03-06-2007, 4:27 PM
"Quote:
If you want more precision, you need a bolt gun.

I feel this is misinformation. Sure there are some specific fancy high-end bolt guns that may edge out certain grade of AR. There are a-tad-above middling grades of AR that will outshoot many 223 bolt guns."
***************************

I didn't phrase that properly. I should have said that if you want to get maximum performance (accuracy over the longest distance) from a .223, you need a bolt gun.

I had an AR that I could generally hit a torso sized target out to 600 yards, but, that was many years ago. My eyes need a scope for that these days since an unscoped AR can shoot better than I can see with just irons.



I am not dumping on AR's. As I said, they can be very accurate.

Of course, when I mention that a bolt gun will get best performance, I wasn't referring to an innacurate hunting rifle. Nor am I suggesting that a rusted shot out bolt gun of any manufacture or condition will outshoot any AR.


Indisputably, within most people's budgets, bolt guns are more accurate than semi's for long distance shooting.

How many long distance military/leo sniper rifles (not DM rifles) are semi and how many are bolt? That gives a pretty good indication of what is best for maximum accuracy at distance.

Again, it just depends on 'your' application.

midvalleyshooter
03-06-2007, 4:38 PM
Well some of the info you have been given in this thread is debatable.:)

If you want a mini, explore these sites:
http://perfectunion.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86
and:
http://www.greatwestgunsmithing.com/

The mini has more in common with a M1 carbine or an AK47 than a target rifle. Mini's can be made to shoot though.

Good luck in your quest,
Keith

hi_desert
03-06-2007, 5:01 PM
Qoute:
* attractive fat chick
* clean Taco Bell restroom
* temporary tax increase
* good inner-city school

ROTFLMAO!

Mean, just plain mean. I'm a mini to AR convert but my mini still shares the same prescious space in the vault with the upper classmen.

ketec_owner
03-06-2007, 5:10 PM
Well the same could be said of a keltec SU-16. I love mine but it's not pagent winner.

Maybe a attractive fat chick... every girl has to have some love sometime right :D

Mastersid
03-08-2007, 12:59 AM
Don't waste your time on a Mini 14 Target rifle. I made the mistake of such folly years ago, including having one rebarreled in 6TCU from a well advertised self aclaimed accuracy??? specialist from Odessa,Texas. With the money and time invested for a piece of crap that now gathers dust as a reminder to listen to the advice of sound minds,I could have purchased a new Springfield M1-A, which I later did. Sure, a QUALIFIED gunsmith may get one to shoot reasonably well for a price, but also consider the fact that if your parts wear out or are broken, Ruger offers no support for such events. With the M-14 and AR-15 platforms there is an unlimited supply of parts and support. If you are set on this type of rifle, Buy a Springfield M-1A, new or used, or if you are set on a .223, buy a CA legal OLL lower and build it without a pistol grip. There are numerous upper recievers that pin on and will give you more accuracy than you can hold. If for some reason you are afraid of the most popular and universal target rifle platform in America, than I would suggest an off the shelf Remington 700 BDL Varmint rifle. You can always fit it with a bolt on stripper clip slot and have it fitted with match sights if you want to dabble in NRA Highpower competition.Do a google search on Highpower Rifle forums and read up. You might even find a good used one.
Good shooting, Sid

GunMonkey
03-12-2007, 4:00 PM
If for some reason you are afraid of the most popular and universal target rifle platform in America,

I missed a pronoun reference somewhere... WHAT is the most popular and universal target rifle platform?
:confused:

glockk9mm
03-12-2007, 5:28 PM
Just buy a stock mini and send it off to Gundoc at Great West Gunsmithing. A lot of customers of his are apparently getting 1 MOA and sub-MOA groups after he does his magic. If you want an accurate Mini I would go that route.

+1 on the gundoc

HUTCH 7.62
03-12-2007, 6:49 PM
Mini -14 accurate LOL:D wish mine was accurate when mine was new out of the box a guy outshot me with a yugo SKS

dfletcher
05-10-2007, 5:33 PM
I see that Ruger now sells these with the Hogue synthetic stock and presume they're OK for us in CA. Buy it, toss the stock then get another laminate type.

Mud
05-10-2007, 6:17 PM
I'm a big fan of the Laminate Stock also:)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/100_2365_640x480.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a149/6ppc/100_2370_640x480.jpg

Fjold
05-10-2007, 6:38 PM
If you have equal amounts of money to spend and equal gunsmithing skills a bolt gun will outshoot an AR.

mike100
05-10-2007, 6:40 PM
I've chosen an M1A to be my accurate enough semi-auto battle rifle. It is 50 state compliant/politically correct and shoots a decisive caliber. AR's have tons of support but I have chosen to not get one for personal reasons as well as the fact of the magazine issues in this state.

Perhaps you ought to buy a $100 milsurp from Big 5 or somebody to give bolt action shooting a try. Bolties make excellent range guns because you won't burn through a box of ammo in 5 minutes. I have a $79 m44 mosin nagant and I'm pretty proud of how it shoots. Don't forget to get a rimfire toy as well.

pulserifle99
05-10-2007, 6:58 PM
well acording to the ruger website you can get the target model with a Black Hogue® OverMolded™ stock, too. http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=61&variation=Mini-14®%20Target%20Rifle&bct=Yes&type=Rifle

aealong
05-10-2007, 8:49 PM
I really like the look of the laminated stock with the thumbhole over the black Hogue stock though. Too bad it seems that the good looking laminated stock is illegal here in CA. Makes no sense at all.

aealong
05-10-2007, 8:51 PM
By the way any possibility of getting a fixed magazine like the Prince 50 or bullet button for the Ruger Mini 14 Target so the laminated stock is CA legal? I'd buy that in a second.

Sal
05-10-2007, 9:47 PM
you could modify the stock to something like this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Spikespigiel/mini.jpg

aealong
05-14-2007, 11:13 PM
hey that's a good looking modification. can't wait til ruger makes that an option...do you think if I buy the Target with the black stock, that a gunsmith could replace the black stock with a wood stock like that and how much would that run, do you think? Any recommendations for gunsmiths in southern california who could do something like that?

dfletcher
05-15-2007, 6:23 AM
You don't need a gunsmith to change the stock. It's a pretty easy switch in general. Just be certain to also switch out your metal stock lining.

There are some problem points - be sure the metal nose cap of the forend liner is fully seated, getting the action fully seated so the trigger group closes can take a little work. It's not exactly fine edge gunsmithing although with a target type Mini maybe a bit more care is warranted.

There are alot of after market Mini 14 stocks out there. I bought one last week & it took about 30 minutes to switch out. Got tired of switching factory folder with ugly factory wood conventional stock every time I'm in & out of CA, got a laminated conventional one instead.

Sniper3142
05-15-2007, 4:07 PM
What you want to do with a rifle will dictate what type and caliber to get.

I'd chose an AR over a bolt gun for general target and range plinking (out to 700+ yards).

For serious long range target use, a bolt gun is the best way to go. A Remington 700 would be a good place to start (or a Savage). Caliber depends on what type of shooting. .308 is best if you won't be reloading and for overall performance. If reloading, I'd take a long look at either a 260 Rem or a .243 Win.

And forget the Mini-14, it will NEVER be as accurate or flexible as an AR series rifle. And you can get an AR-15 in numerous calibers from pistol sized (9mm, 45acp) to ones that come close to the performance of a .308 (6.5 Grendel). And there are many, many more!

:)

aealong
05-15-2007, 7:29 PM
I found this article http://perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=49070 on another calguns board, looks like the pic that Sal posted was the original laminated stock for the concept mini 14 target. Now my next question is, is this concept stock without the thumbhole still legal in CA or does the "pistol" looking grip make it not CA legal?

LECTRIKHED
05-15-2007, 7:36 PM
You are forgetting the new one. the Beretta Rx4 is supposed to hit the US in late June/Early July. Wait for that one. You will get much better quality than a kel-tec, and better accuracy than a ruger. Plus you can use standard nato magazines.

vf111
05-16-2007, 10:21 AM
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=72035311

dfletcher
05-16-2007, 1:17 PM
I found this article http://perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=49070 on another calguns board, looks like the pic that Sal posted was the original laminated stock for the concept mini 14 target. Now my next question is, is this concept stock without the thumbhole still legal in CA or does the "pistol" looking grip make it not CA legal?

The concept stock on the gun does allow for a pistol type grip, but it does not position the hand below the trigger. And the grip does not protrude below the stock. But I'd say I'd prefer to NOT have that in my possession in an LE encounter - it looks mighty close. Could use more stock & less grip.

blkA4alb
05-16-2007, 3:03 PM
No it would not be legal. It allows for a pistol style grasp with the web of the thumb below the exposed portion of the trigger. Per those guidelines, it is still a pistol grip.