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View Full Version : Calling All AK Afficianados...


madjack956
12-13-2011, 8:04 PM
I will soon be the owner of an Arsenal 23-61 AK. Although I own about 30 firearms, I have never owned or fired an AK. Id like to put a Tapco G2 trigger in it, but I dont know the difference between a single or double hook trigger. If anyone would be kind enough to explain the differences I would appreciate it.

Also, if anyone could recommend what you usually lube them with, and any quirks they might have or tips you may have would be great also.. Thanks

Cuerno_de_Chivo
12-13-2011, 8:12 PM
I havent even used lube on my Arsenal. In fact, I have cleaned it probably once since I got it and 0 misfires or any sort of problems, around 1000 rounds through it aswell. Enjoy your rifle. That's the beauty of AKs.

zfields
12-13-2011, 8:13 PM
Single hook will work with just about everything, double hook only on recievers that are cut that way.


as for lube...just about anything works. I like a spot of grease on the rails, and lube in the trigger group.

Im Broken
12-13-2011, 8:13 PM
I find 5w30 penzoil to work well with AKs that I have fired.

madjack956
12-13-2011, 8:26 PM
thanks all... I appreciate the quick responses...

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 8:36 PM
When it comes to cleaning your AK, don't sweat it.

After shooting corrosive ammo, I clean mine with only windex, WD-40, and napkins and it runs like a champ, an Arsenal SGL-20.

madjack956
12-13-2011, 9:02 PM
When it comes to cleaning your AK, don't sweat it.

After shooting corrosive ammo, I clean mine with only windex, WD-40, and napkins and it runs like a champ, an Arsenal SGL-20.

thats funny... Id better use my regular cleaning supplies. if I grab the wifes windex and napkins Ill catch hell. how do you like your Arsenal?

DavidRSA
12-13-2011, 9:09 PM
Since it has a US-made fcg, perhaps it is already Tapco....

"Item# California Legal Arsenal AK47 23-61
Brand: Arsenal Inc.

Saiga rifle, 7.62x39 caliber, California compliant, US made black polymer furniture, Warsaw Pact length buttstock, compensator,chrome lined hammer forged barrel, 10-round US made magazine, detachable magazine, tool for magazine, 16" barrel, front sight block with bayonet lug, accessory lug, 24x1.5mm right-hand threads, stainless steel heatshield, US made double stage fire control group, 1000m rear sight, cleaning rod, scope rail"

Crawfish141
12-13-2011, 9:09 PM
SGL23's use single hook triggers.

Mamluke
12-13-2011, 9:13 PM
Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:

WSjE_nEFa0c

Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather... ;)

zfields
12-13-2011, 9:16 PM
Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:



Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather... ;)

Depends on the type you are using. Slip 2000 EWL works great in all weather. Either way I only use it on the trigger group.

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 9:18 PM
thats funny... Id better use my regular cleaning supplies. if I grab the wifes windex and napkins Ill catch hell. how do you like your Arsenal?

Hahaha, I'm glad I'm not married yet. Now, try not to laugh too hard, here is a picture of it:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1606/pict0010ul.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/pict0010ul.jpg/)

It has no "pistol grip," (nor folding/telescoping stock, nor flash hider) so I can use "high capacity" magazines such as the drum magazine you see there, and the SGL-20 is amazing, always a crowd pleaser, when they shoot it, not the way it looks!

madjack956
12-13-2011, 9:22 PM
wow! how many rounds in the drum?

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 9:27 PM
75 round drum, pre-ban Romanian, wind-up reload. My one and only...

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3694/pict0013w.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/pict0013w.jpg/)

It's exactly the same kind as here:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG032-1.html

madjack956
12-13-2011, 9:38 PM
Use white lithium grease to lube your bolt & carrier rails:

WSjE_nEFa0c

Oil splatters all over and it ain't worth a d**** in COLD weather... ;)

Mamluke, thanks so much for the lube video. It was so helpful seeing it done like that...

zfields
12-13-2011, 9:41 PM
75 round drum, pre-ban Romanian, wind-up reload. My one and only...

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3694/pict0013w.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/pict0013w.jpg/)

It's exactly the same kind as here:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG032-1.html

is that the Mako rail?

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 9:46 PM
zfields,

Yes it is. I did not install that there, it came with the gun, if I had alternate furniture I would have replaced it. But at least I can put a VFG on it once I get one, handling the rifle with a featureless grip wrap over the PG lends to holding the rifle in a position in which holding the handguards while shooting is awkward for the left hand.

zfields
12-13-2011, 9:51 PM
zfields,

Yes it is. I did not install that there, it came with the gun, if I had alternate furniture I would have replaced it. But at least I can put a VFG on it once I get one, handling the rifle with a featureless grip wrap over the PG lends to holding the rifle in a position in which holding the handguards while shooting is awkward for the left hand.

Yea I was running a longer tapco rail on mine when i was featureless. Helped out a lot, also considering it was a 20" barrel. Just be aware adding a VFG will make the rifle " featured " again.

You may want to take a peak at the MI Extended rail that just came out, extends all the way to the gasblock.

Was just curious, you don't see many of them out there it seems.

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 9:55 PM
Yes, the MAKO rail is rigid and plastic, but no complaints, despite being fugly and ungodly looking on an AK-47 (lol), it is durable and works to fit "tactical" needs.

This AK is my beater and shooter, so I don't care how it looks, hence the tape over the kydex grip wrap on the pistol grip :smilielol5:

MI aluminum rail handguards is an excellent choice. The price is up there, but it's quality.

zfields
12-13-2011, 9:57 PM
Yes, the MAKO rail is rigid and plastic, but no complaints, despite being fugly and ungodly looking on an AK-47 (lol), it is durable and works to fit "tactical" needs.

This AK is my beater and shooter, so I don't care how it looks, hence the tape over the kydex grip wrap on the pistol grip :smilielol5:

MI aluminum rail handguards is an excellent choice. The price is up there, but it's quality.

Eh 165 for a full US made rail, and a co-witness mount isn't that bad. Im considering picking one up with the 30mm tube mount. Considering the price of a ultimak is 90ish, really makes it seem much more reasonable.

Im still up in the air, going to be either rebuilding, or building another Saiga here soon, not sure if I want to go traditional poly forend with a ultimak and a tantal folder, or tacticool.



Any I hear ya, my AK while in CA wasnt/still isnt pretty, but it shoots good, and I modified the grip wrap to have a thumb rest to make it work for me.

madjack956
12-13-2011, 9:58 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone, you've all been very helpful. Up until tonight I have been uncharacteristically calm about getting my new rifle. Even the wife commented today about my subdued demeanor. But tonight it hit me like a brick. Im all fidgety and got butterflies and cant stop surfing websites looking at AK pics and reading reviews and checking out accessories and buying ammo for it. Its good to feel like this again.:D

zfields
12-13-2011, 10:00 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone, you've all been very helpful. Up until tonight I have been uncharacteristically calm about getting my new rifle. Even the wife commented today about my subdued demeanor. But tonight it hit me like a brick. Im all fidgety and got butterflies and cant stop surfing websites looking at AK pics and reading reviews and checking out accessories and buying ammo for it. Its good to feel like this again.:D

Good luck. its a sickening disease.

wash
12-13-2011, 10:18 PM
Um, vertical forward grip is a feature so you'll have to lose the drum and add a mag lock to add one...

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 10:27 PM
Um, vertical forward grip is a feature so you'll have to lose the drum and add a mag lock to add one...

I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:

Pistol grip


Forward pistol grip



Flash suppressor



Folding, collapsable stock



Thumbhole stock



Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."

EDIT: I no longer advocate this statement nor idea. Too precarious to apply logic to CA gun laws.

hcbr
12-13-2011, 10:30 PM
congrats, you'll have fun with her!

unusedusername
12-13-2011, 11:29 PM
I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."

If you say so...

Jeepers
12-13-2011, 11:35 PM
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:

Pistol grip


Forward pistol grip



Flash suppressor



Folding, collapsable stock



Thumbhole stock



Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
what is a Forward pistol grip then if a "VFG" is not one

safewaysecurity
12-13-2011, 11:41 PM
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:

Pistol grip


Forward pistol grip



Flash suppressor



Folding, collapsable stock



Thumbhole stock



Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."

Try having an otherwise featureless AR with a VFG and no bulletbutton and see what the prosecuting DA thinks. I doubt when they said forward pistol grip that they were thinking of only AMD-65s...

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 11:42 PM
what is a Forward pistol grip then if a "VFG" is not one

This gun has one:

http://www.armouryinaction.co.uk/media/assault-rifles/SA80.jpg

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 11:44 PM
Try having an otherwise featureless AR with a VFG and no bulletbutton and see what the prosecuting DA thinks. I doubt when they said forward pistol grip that they were thinking of only AMD-65s...

I do admit, this is definitely a risky endeavor, given our prosecution-happy DA's and otherwise LEO's or police chiefs that may interpret the law "their own way" given poor wording of the AWB laws.

Not recommended for anyone to do this unless they don't mind duking it out in court if it leads to an attempt to charge someone doing it for AW violations.

I say this because it's painfully obvious CA laws have no logic whatsoever, so one cannot assume logic and expect the legal system (esp. regarding firearms) to do the same.

wash
12-13-2011, 11:45 PM
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:

Pistol grip


Forward pistol grip



Flash suppressor



Folding, collapsable stock



Thumbhole stock



Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."
Are you confusing an "AFG" with a "VFG"?

Even if you are, there is a problem.

ATF has said that "AFGs" are not vertical forward grips for the purpose of a pistol AOW. What you are talking about is California "assault weapon" law.

CADOJ doesn't care what ATF thinks about "AFGs", just like they don't care about how ATF measures rifles with folding stocks when the stock is open to determine SBR status but CA measures rifles with the stock folded to determine if you meet the 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

An "AFG" might get you in trouble if your district attorney decides they want to get a conviction and even if you don't lose your case, it will be very expensive.

It's not worth it. It's not FUD.

Jeepers
12-13-2011, 11:48 PM
wow ok what makes the pistol grip on your rifle "featureless" ?

a grip wrap that prevents your hand to wrap around it like a pistol, what make you think any grip forward of your trigger hand that can be grip in a "pistol grip" manner is not going to land you in hot water with most any D.A.? lawyer fees get spendy quick and dont think you will find any one to defend this logic for free ....

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 11:51 PM
Are you confusing an "AFG" with a "VFG"?

Even if you are, there is a problem.

ATF has said that "AFGs" are not vertical forward grips for the purpose of a pistol AOW. What you are talking about is California "assault weapon" law.

CADOJ doesn't care what ATF thinks about "AFGs", just like they don't care about how ATF measures rifles with folding stocks when the stock is open to determine SBR status but CA measures rifles with the stock folded to determine if you meet the 30" overall length requirement for semi-auto centerfire rifles.

An "AFG" might get you in trouble if your district attorney decides they want to get a conviction and even if you don't lose your case, it will be very expensive.

It's not worth it. It's not FUD.

Ok then, please elaborate. What exactly is an "AFG," and what is a "VFG," and how are they different from one another?

A "VFG" is, in my mind, one of these:

http://tangodown.com/shop/images/BGV-QDSF.jpg

wash
12-13-2011, 11:52 PM
This gun has one:

http://www.armouryinaction.co.uk/media/assault-rifles/SA80.jpg
Your legal interpretation is wrong. That gun has a "pistol grip", not a "forward pistol grip"

Jeepers
12-13-2011, 11:52 PM
http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/images/AFG.jpg

Cali-Shooter
12-13-2011, 11:56 PM
Ok, you folks got me convinced. AFG/VFG is a no-go for featureless.

EDIT: added "VFG."

wash
12-13-2011, 11:59 PM
Ok then, please elaborate. What exactly is an "AFG," and what is a "VFG," and how are they different from one another?

A "VFG" is, in my mind, one of these:

http://tangodown.com/shop/images/BGV-QDSF.jpg
Look up Magpul AFG.

ATF tech branch has written letters stating that an AFG does not turn a pistol in to a pistol AOW like a VFG would.

Some people confuse that with it somehow being CA legal on featureless rifles.

The real answer is maybe or maybe not.

Your confusion is a bit more profound. VFG=Forward Pistol Grip.

You could lose your gun rights over that one.

Hopefully the situation will improve because CGF has an "assault weapon" lawsuit and the argument is that CA law is unconstitutionally vague. This might make certain features OK but a few might survive.

zfields
12-14-2011, 5:51 AM
I call FUD.

Penal Code 12276.1 (a)
Does the rifle have any of these features:

Pistol grip



Forward pistol grip



Flash suppressor



Folding, collapsable stock



Thumbhole stock



Grenade, Flare launcher


I don't see vertical foregrips listed as a "feature." Also, VFG's are not "forward pistol grips."

Please educate yourself before doing this, because you are very wrong on it.

Sent from my Incredible 2 using Tapatalk

Richard Erichsen
12-14-2011, 12:04 PM
I will soon be the owner of an Arsenal 23-61 AK. Although I own about 30 firearms, I have never owned or fired an AK. Id like to put a Tapco G2 trigger in it, but I dont know the difference between a single or double hook trigger. If anyone would be kind enough to explain the differences I would appreciate it.

Also, if anyone could recommend what you usually lube them with, and any quirks they might have or tips you may have would be great also.. Thanks

Determine if you need a new trigger group before you buy one, they tend to smooth out well with use. A new G2 won't be any better until it smooths out.

White lithium grease stays put where oil tends to roll off on the rails, bolt carrier and so on. Oil the bolt, the fire control group and the recoil springs to reduce recoil. I'm playing with a few dry lubricants that contain PTFE and molybdenum disulphide that may replace my use of oil depending on the results.

Keep oil and grease out of the chamber and breachface area (unless done deliberately for long term storage) and at no time oil or grease the gas system: gas block, gas tube and gas piston. It will only result in carbon deposits, there are no surfaces that require it anyway.

Good luck,

R

safewaysecurity
12-14-2011, 12:09 PM
Ok, you folks got me convinced. AFG/VFG is a no-go for featureless.

EDIT: added "VFG."

Wrong again. I do believe AFGs are permitted on featurless builds because they are not a pistol grip. A pistol grip is considered a grip you can wrap your hand or thumb around.

Cali-Shooter
12-14-2011, 12:21 PM
safewaysecurity, I was stating that it's a no-go for me, but whoever else wants to try it, be my guest.

I can see the AFG having more leniency due to the fact it is seemingly impossible to classify as a "pistol grip" however.

zfields
12-14-2011, 12:37 PM
Wrong again. I do believe AFGs are permitted on featurless builds because they are not a pistol grip. A pistol grip is considered a grip you can wrap your hand or thumb around.

There is no "official" word on this, since you know how CA likes to be vauge as hell.

Diesel power had a interesting picture he put up a while back, It could be argued that the AFG could be a pistol grip. Personally I dont believe it is, but on that one better to be cautious, then bubba's girlfriend IMO.

madjack956
12-14-2011, 12:38 PM
Determine if you need a new trigger group before you buy one, they tend to smooth out well with use. A new G2 won't be any better until it smooths out.

White lithium grease stays put where oil tends to roll off on the rails, bolt carrier and so on. Oil the bolt, the fire control group and the recoil springs to reduce recoil. I'm playing with a few dry lubricants that contain PTFE and molybdenum disulphide that may replace my use of oil depending on the results.

Keep oil and grease out of the chamber and breachface area (unless done deliberately for long term storage) and at no time oil or grease the gas system: gas block, gas tube and gas piston. It will only result in carbon deposits, there are no surfaces that require it anyway.

Good luck,

R

yeah, its probably not a bad idea to just shoot what I bought for a while before tearing into it..thanks for the input..

Richard Erichsen
12-14-2011, 3:53 PM
yeah, its probably not a bad idea to just shoot what I bought for a while before tearing into it..thanks for the input..

I meant to say "reduce rust" not "reduce recoil" by the way. ;)

bighead
12-15-2011, 8:29 AM
There is nothing to grab on magpuls afg, nor does any pistol have an afg as its pistolgrip.This is what confuses me.I can't wrap my fingers around it and its not on any pistol as a grip, so how the hell is it considered a "feature"?

Richard Erichsen
12-15-2011, 8:39 AM
Hahaha, I'm glad I'm not married yet. Now, try not to laugh too hard, here is a picture of it:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1606/pict0010ul.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/pict0010ul.jpg/)

It has no "pistol grip," (nor folding/telescoping stock, nor flash hider) so I can use "high capacity" magazines such as the drum magazine you see there, and the SGL-20 is amazing, always a crowd pleaser, when they shoot it, not the way it looks!

This doesn't constitute legal advise and I'm no lawyer, but I think your use of tape for obscuring the pistol grip, while clever, may be skirting dangerously close to crossing the line. There have been grip straps that you could literally pull off with one hand with little force required. I think consensus at this point is that anything that doesn't require a "tool" to remove is probably taking an unnecessary risk on contact with an LEO. It could be argued that tape could be similarly pulled off, without tools, exposing the pistol grip and turning your legal featureless OLL into an AW. Leaving the legal status of the firearm to the discretion of an LEO given how complex the laws are and how much room for interpretation there can be (at the very least, risk of being detained for an extended period of time while supervisors are contacted and more LEOs show up at the scene), I'd suggest making a proper grip strap that at least appears to be a reasonable effort on your part to comply. The $0.05 worth of tape you used doesn't really project a statement I'd want an LEO to question if it were me. Considering you have a drum magazine that might by itself raise eyebrows even before the pistol grip issue is noticed.

R

Cali-Shooter
12-15-2011, 8:42 AM
The kydex grip wrap stays on itself, I didn't like the gap that it creates between the kydex and the stock of the rifle, so that's why the tape was put, the tape doesn't keep the grip on, the grip wrap already stays on the pistol grip.

Richard Erichsen
12-15-2011, 8:47 AM
There is nothing to grab on magpuls afg, nor does any pistol have an afg as its pistolgrip.This is what confuses me.I can't wrap my fingers around it and its not on any pistol as a grip, so how the hell is it considered a "feature"?

I think it would be hard to intellectually equate the angle of those "angled forward grips" with that of a "vertical forward grip" but logic and reason isn't the cornerstone of any of our gun laws. It's a gray area until conclusively resolved by the DOJ (who have shown little interesting in resolving many of these gray areas), but there don't appear to be any high profile cases yet either. You might want to take this question to the CG Foundation lawyers and see if there is any work in that area they may be involved in (a letter to the DOJ to clarify perhaps).

R