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Zippiot
12-12-2011, 6:12 AM
I would like it to run 5.56 and have a 1:7 twist but thats not always an option...

I spotted the Smith and Wesson M&P15 gas piston for $1100
http://www.impactguns.com/smith-and-wesson-mp15-811022-556-30-022188139396.aspx

Bushmaster MOE $1040 (I really like the MOE stuff)
http://www.impactguns.com/Bushmaster-m4-a3-gas-piston-moe-black-90825-604206129727.aspx

CMMG M4 for $900
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2CMMGM4LEPII-1.html

Are the Sig 556's considered an AR?
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/57650

Stag Arms $1020
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2SA8L-1.html

Any others? Could always do a build to get a bit more choice in parts.

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 6:36 AM
well you first have to pick a system and know that you are married to that system for life. each manufacturer has their own way to do it. pick the one you feel will still have parts around in 30 years.

as for me, I see no reason to buy a fake AR15, if I was going with a piston system I wouldn't be going with an AR15. The Sig is close to what I would go with. Thats just me.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 6:40 AM
I had an M&P 15 and had no issues with it. I shoot direct impingement all the time, then i got to play with a 416 and loved it! But no reason to drop that much on something I would only use at the range

PolishMike
12-12-2011, 6:44 AM
Why do you want a piston?

You can get a quality DI AR for around a thousand. You CANT get a quality piston AR for a thousand.

I would much rather have a good DI AR versus a bottom barrel piston AR.

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 6:45 AM
I had an M&P 15 and had no issues with it. I shoot direct impingement all the time, then i got to play with a 416 and loved it! But no reason to drop that much on something I would only use at the rane

agreed. If you have the urge to go piston, get a piston, not a re-design of a DI into a piston.

Sig551-a1 (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sig551-a1.aspx)

look no further (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL)

sonnyt650
12-12-2011, 6:51 AM
Two pins and a cheap upper later you are back to an as-designed AR, so I'd go for any of the standard AR pattern rifles myself. That options are available at all indicates that somebody thought an improvement was in order, and personally I'm grateful to those folks so I can roll my rifles to suit me instead of the other way around. If you can sink a spare hundred dollars on the proper tools you can even assemble your own piston upper (say with a high-end match barrel) as you see fit.

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 7:00 AM
Two pins and a cheap upper later you are back to an as-designed AR, so I'd go for any of the standard AR pattern rifles myself. That options are available at all indicates that somebody thought an improvement was in order, and personally I'm grateful to those folks so I can roll my rifles to suit me instead of the other way around. If you can sink a spare hundred dollars on the proper tools you can even assemble your own piston upper (say with a high-end match barrel) as you see fit.

this is true, the upper is the only variation from the platforms benefit. It just seems to me,... I (I) would be happier with a real piston rifle. If I was forced into buying a piston AR system, my choice would hinge on the reputation of the company and its longevity in the firearms market. I want to be able to fix my upper with OEM parts. If in 15 years I have to buy what amounts to a whole new system made by someone else, I have done myself no real justice in picking the original system. I dont see CMMG, Stag or S&W in the AR15 piston game for more than 10 years. If they do, then the design will change requiring me to buy possibly a new barrel (gas port) or other things. I know Sig and HK will be in the game well past my lifetime..and the FAL/FN has been around a long time.

just my 2 little pennies... YMMV

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 7:17 AM
Isnt Bushmaster having a lot of trouble manufacturing their rifles now?

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 7:28 AM
Isnt Bushmaster having a lot of trouble manufacturing their rifles now?

Bushmaster is closed. They went out of business and the Freedom Group LLC bought the roll mark and moved production to another facility. It will be a few years before the Armorers get the hang of it. I dont know how many of the Bushmaster Armorers moved to the new location. I know it was in another State, so who knows.

You'd think it wouldnt effect the line, but it does.

EvoXRiley
12-12-2011, 7:34 AM
i have a SIG556 SWAT, its a 1/7 twist and for the price its a a great gun, it shoots everything i put in it from steel case to cheap brass reloads.

the piston system on it is very similar to an AK style system but parts have been moved around and such.

super easy to clean and maintain,although i havent cleaned it yet as im trying to see how far it will go before cleaning. as far as accuracy i cant tell any difference on it compared to my DI gun. Id assume only a match shooter, shooting from a bench could see a real difference, but for me it goes bang everytime and take down of the weapon is easy.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 8:08 AM
A good friend here is an armorer maybe he has the tools I would need to build an upper. Might as well build a .22lr upper while im at it

Striker
12-12-2011, 8:19 AM
I would like it to run 5.56 and have a 1:7 twist but thats not always an option...

I spotted the Smith and Wesson M&P15 gas piston for $1100
http://www.impactguns.com/smith-and-wesson-mp15-811022-556-30-022188139396.aspx

Bushmaster MOE $1040 (I really like the MOE stuff)
http://www.impactguns.com/Bushmaster-m4-a3-gas-piston-moe-black-90825-604206129727.aspx

CMMG M4 for $900
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2CMMGM4LEPII-1.html

Are the Sig 556's considered an AR?
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/57650

Stag Arms $1020
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/2SA8L-1.html

Any others? Could always do a build to get a bit more choice in parts.

If it were me, for a piston AR, I would look at HK and Colt first. Maybe new LWRC. If you don't want or can't afford any of those, I would look to either an AK-74 in 5.45 or a DI AR. Just my opinion.

goodlookin1
12-12-2011, 8:58 AM
I would like to ask this to those who say a gun with a drop in kit is a bad thing: What is the difference, when looking at, say a HK416 upper, and an upper with a drop in kit? When you really look at the differences, there really arent any. They all function the same, only some have more parts than others. Some have gas adjustments, some have other springs here and there, bushings, and whatnot. But is an AR patterned rifle "that was designed as a piston from the ground up" really any functionally different than the rifles with a drop in piston?

In my opinion, no, they are not. They are short stroke systems with the same shaped carrier (either a one piece or a bolt on "piston" key) that vent gas at the gas block instead of inside the receiver. Sure, there are minor changes here and there that make them "different", but the end result is the same: Short stroke piston. I think it's a cop out to say that drop in piston systems are inherently inferior "because they werent designed for it". You might say I have a vested interest in saying this because I have one of those systems.....but no, I dont care what people think of the drop in piston kit I have...I know it just works. Every time.

And dont mistake me for someone who thinks the pistons have no drawbacks: They certainly include proprietary designs, extra weight, sometimes extra parts (depending on manufacturer), and ever so slightly decreased accuracy. But I would like to see the anecdotal evidence that supports the conclusion that short stroke "built from the ground up" pistons are better/different than "drop in" piston kits. I simply havent seen this to be true. I think if anything, reliability problems are born from incorrect installation rather than inherent design problems.

Just my own opinion though. And it's not worth anything :)

EvoXRiley
12-12-2011, 9:01 AM
I concur goodlookin1.. the adams arms system is a great system for the price, and the only failures i see is from incorrect installation.

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 9:10 AM
Just to be clear on what I am saying ( @ goodlookin1), I am not saying they are inferior, they are not. They are merely (in my mind) less likely to take hold within the firearms market and I could possibly own a firearm I can not fix, repair or shoot for fear of a broken / worn out part that can not be replaced easily. The limited supply thing is great to collectors...an AR18 is awesome sauce for the collecter...just not me. YMMV.

Molby242
12-12-2011, 9:18 AM
Why do you want a piston?

You can get a quality DI AR for around a thousand. You CANT get a quality piston AR for a thousand.

I would much rather have a good DI AR versus a bottom barrel piston AR.

Agreed. (coming from a piston AR owner)

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 10:01 AM
In the case of the Bushmaster there is less than a 100 dollar difference. So be honest, would 100 more bux afford me a "good DI" vs the piston driven variant? Everything is exactly the same except the 100 buck options checkbox for "short stroke piston"

Squirrel-tactical
12-12-2011, 10:42 AM
I have an LMT MRP piston upper on my AR. The front-end takedown for the piston, the simple design, and the one-piece handguard and upper make it worth the $$$ for me.

Downsides are weight (going to see if someone can do a weight reduction on the handguard portion), parts availability (as on any piston gun), and the almost imperceptible difference in recoil over a DGI system.

With the MRP though, I can switch easily between DGI and piston, and upgrade to 6.8 if that ever becomes a viable cartridge for everyday shooting.

C4iGrant
12-12-2011, 10:45 AM
well you first have to pick a system and know that you are married to that system for life. each manufacturer has their own way to do it. pick the one you feel will still have parts around in 30 years.

as for me, I see no reason to buy a fake AR15, if I was going with a piston system I wouldn't be going with an AR15. The Sig is close to what I would go with. Thats just me.

Odd as it may sound, I have to agree with this.


Shoe horning a piston into a gun that was never designed to have one is a poor idea IMHO.

If you want a piston gun in 5.56, buy one that was designed from the ground up to be that way. The SCAR 16 would be a good choice or an Ak.



C4

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 10:53 AM
Odd as it may sound, I have to agree with this.


Shoe horning a piston into a gun that was never designed to have one is a poor idea IMHO.

If you want a piston gun in 5.56, buy one that was designed from the ground up to be that way. The SCAR 16 would be a good choice or an Ak.



C4

Scar16 is what, 2.5k? AK's are 350+.....

I got talked out of the ACR because of the Bushmaster plant shutting down and lack of the long barrels I wanted.

I love and am very good at/with the AR platform. Folding stocks are a no-no in Cali (and even though I split my time there and Georgia, I want everything to be CA legal when I come home for good) and besides the tiny portion of the Piston system being proprietary everything else is AR. Easy barrel changes, stocks triggers the works. Yes the SIG's are battle proven, HK's are way too expensive as are LWRC...

C4iGrant
12-12-2011, 11:01 AM
Scar16 is what, 2.5k? AK's are 350+.....

I got talked out of the ACR because of the Bushmaster plant shutting down and lack of the long barrels I wanted.

I love and am very good at/with the AR platform. Folding stocks are a no-no in Cali (and even though I split my time there and Georgia, I want everything to be CA legal when I come home for good) and besides the tiny portion of the Piston system being proprietary everything else is AR. Easy barrel changes, stocks triggers the works. Yes the SIG's are battle proven, HK's are way too expensive as are LWRC...

We sell SCAR-L's for $2200. Good Ak's are more than $350 I think (don't deal in them so am not a good source for pricing info).

I would NOT buy an ACR.

The parts that break on the piston AR's is almost ALWAYS parts of the piston (op rod, piston, etc).

I have know to many people that have either worked for SIG or do contract work with them to ever recommend their rifles. In fact, if you talk to folks that have actually used real SIG 551's and 552's in combat, they are not all that well thought of (meaning that reliability wasn't there).

If you are after accuracy, I would NEVER go with a piston gun (as they are almost always less accurate than a quality built AR).



C4

osis32
12-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Ruger 556e is something you should look a3 as well. I agree if you want piston get a sig 556 or a used xcr. Sig might be a better choice as RA is not known for customer service or great support.

BigBoyPinoy
12-12-2011, 11:21 AM
Sig 516 Patrol, MSRP $1399 $1250 around here with BUIS. Good looking, lightweight piston system, with similar features to much costlier LWRC, haven't heard any negatives about them except Sig copying design elements from LWRC. Many videos about it on Utube.

Sunday
12-12-2011, 11:37 AM
As a matter of conversation why a gas piston? DI works good enough for all intents and purposes. Buy a BCM and be happy.

BigBoyPinoy
12-12-2011, 11:46 AM
As a matter of conversation why a gas piston? DI works good enough for all intents and purposes. Buy a BCM and be happy.

Main reason:

Increased reliability and less maintenance due to no carbon fouling in receiver,
excess gas is vented outside of receiver and piston cycles bolt carrier instead of hot gas.

Only bad thing I see with piston is lack of a uniform piston design used by various AR manufacturers and price.

supermario
12-12-2011, 11:50 AM
I think the Sig 556 is a great choice if you want to go with gas piston. I bought one of the first models of the Sig 556 basic and its really durable and reliable as well. I have had mine for years and still havent cleaned it and it shoots everytime. I havent cleaned it because Im kinda doing my own testing and just wanted to see how long I can go without proper maintenance. Dumb idea but I plan on keeping my Sig forever so its no biggy to me. I have shot brass case ammo and wolf and no problems yet. Because the Sig is not modular like an AR, I think thats the main reason people arent sooo excited about them. But thats a good thing for people like me that love them, because now i can buy one for $900.

Go with the Sig 556 and then buy an AR gas piston if you dont like it. The Sigs are soft shooters with nice triggers. I dont think you wont like it. Ive had LMT, Noveske, BCM AR's and I love all of them but I wouldnt get rid of my Sig even though its ugly heavy and plain. I just feel like its a tank that will keep going. One other thing, the Sigs wont keep their value like a high end AR would. If you really want to go with an AR Piston, then try out the LMT gas piston, that way you can swap from gas piston to D.I. and not worry about parts.

Anyhow thats my opinion.

Pistongunner
12-12-2011, 12:10 PM
I have the LMT piston, LWRC M6A2, and the Stag Model 8. I'd say if you want a piston for around 1K the stag Model 8 is pretty darn good. Its quality in my opinion. Works just as good as my LWRC or LMT. Just half the price of others. Don't understand why folks knock it. If your worried about parts for a piston just buy spares. I have spare bolt carriers for my pistons. Id say get a piston.

Ak707
12-12-2011, 12:22 PM
My sig516 was about $1250ish brand new about a year ago, I got the one w the quad rail. It's a nice rifle, no complaints here.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 12:27 PM
Found an FNH F2k for 1500 but no pics.... Lots of sites sell the same rifle but no pics.
The F2k is a piston purpose built system, plus its all sorts of weird looking

TwoAsoapbox
12-12-2011, 12:32 PM
Piston = more moving parts to fail. The best argument for piston over DI is that it will keep your action cleaner and yes less heat will enter the receiver. But ask yourself, will I ever be dumping high numbers of rounds in a very short amount of time, especially from a semi-auto gun? The answer is no, thus the heating issue is not really an issue at all. Second, a few minutes of cleaning will take care of the carbon build-up issue. Also AR's can run dirty just fine. Research BCM's Filthy 14 to prove this point. AR's are not AK's and Im glad for this because all things considered the AR is a better weapon. The modern DI system is very reliable and more than adequate for civilian use....not to mention way cheaper. Just my $0.02.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 12:40 PM
I sent 800 rounds through my M16 without a single jam, misfire or anything. Took it apart and it was one carbon covered mess but all parts moved reliably. I WILL be dumping high numbers of rounds downrange and I dont expect either a DI or Piston system to fail regardless.
A little added complexity and metal rod is no match for a machinist with a lathe in his garage.

But its only 100 dollars more for something that has captivated the assault weapon market. Yes Stoner's original design was a filthy mess but almost all the bugs have been worked out. Maybe the DI system is the last glitch in the matrix stopping the AR platform from achieving greatness!!

So why do I want a piston vs a DI? It doesnt matter either way to me, but the market shift in this direction can be a sign of things to come so it shouldnt be fought with such animosity by diehard fans. If you are good enough to shoot differently in a piston vs DI then you should be getting paid to shoot

Bellehood
12-12-2011, 12:41 PM
as for me, I see no reason to buy a fake AR15, if I was going with a piston system I wouldn't be going with an AR15. The Sig is close to what I would go with. Thats just me...

...would be happier with a real piston rifle...

...I am not saying they are inferior, they are not...



You confuse me. You seem to have a deep bias against all non-ak-ish piston rifles, but then say they are not actually bad weapons. Your use of "fake ar-15" and "REAL piston rifle" is pretty ridiculous. All of the company's that are making piston AR's, are making them, from start to finish, as piston AR's. Sure, the lowers are produced along with the lowers intended for DI rifles, but its not like they take the upper of a DI AR, rip its guts out, and sew in a piston Frankenstein style. They are just as much "real piston rifles" as any other piston rifle on the market, just with a different design.

As for reasons to own one, I completely agree with the ones given. As much as I love my M4, its light recoil, its high level of accuracy, simplicity of design, light weight, I DESPISE cleaning it. I have been doing it for years, and there is little I hate more than cleaning an M4 after shooting, say, a thousand live rounds followed by a thousand blanks. It takes, FOREVER. And that is just the chamber and bolt group. The real issue we see with our M4's after a couple heavy range days, is the amount of grit and carbon blown into the trigger mechanism. If you shoot 400-500 rounds in an hour, as long as you keep enough CLP on the BCG, it's not gunna jam. The issue we see, is the trigger being so gummed up, we get delayed fires, pull the trigger, and it fires anywhere from a quarter of a second, to a whole second after. Freaky stuff.

I don't own an AR-15, because I get enough of it at work. But if I were to buy one, it would be a piston.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 12:52 PM
The AR-15 is a bastardized AR-10 (yes I said it, the original design was an AR-10 in .308 and had no forward assist or shell deflector) so calling something a fake AR-15 is like saying Vanilla Ice didnt rip off Queen who ripped off some other song when they made Under Presure

And parts of the same platform rarely interchange between companies (hence the 2nd poster's response of you choose that platform for life). Armalite and DPMS for example

21SF
12-12-2011, 1:24 PM
Id like to see a head to head comparison of a Piston Gun VS DI w/ Nickle Boron BCG, those thing help a lot!!!

goodlookin1
12-12-2011, 1:31 PM
Just to be clear on what I am saying ( @ goodlookin1), I am not saying they are inferior, they are not. They are merely (in my mind) less likely to take hold within the firearms market and I could possibly own a firearm I can not fix, repair or shoot for fear of a broken / worn out part that can not be replaced easily. The limited supply thing is great to collectors...an AR18 is awesome sauce for the collecter...just not me. YMMV.

In this sense, I agree. The proprietary designs may become problematic of the small companies in the future. But as for "fake piston" rifles, I dont agree at all. Piston's a piston. If you want to call it "makeshift", "drop-in", that's fine, but real vs fake is not accurate at all, IMO. Let's stick with "originally built with" and "modified to fit on" :p

It does seem weird that in reading between the lines, you dont like the drop-in systems, most notably for the proprietary designs. But your dislike for them seems pretty strong, given that you admitted they are not inherently inferior. Are you saying that if you had an AR-15 that performed flawlessly with a "modified to fit on" piston system, that you would be unhappy with it because of the potential lack of future parts availability in an unknown distant time? Personally, if it came down to that, I'd just convert back (best thing about a kit is it's not permanent!). If I cant find the parts, so be it. It was fun while it lasted. Then I'd go back to the filthy AR style'd DI upper (30 min change) and keep shooting. I mean, it's not the end of the world (and even then I think my drop in piston would still keep firing ;) )

But this is my opinion, based on my experience ;)

sonnyt650
12-12-2011, 1:49 PM
Nickle Boron BCG, those thing help a lot!!!

Not with the cleaning which for me like others here is the biggest issue I've got with my DI rifles. Personally being stuck on the 100 yard line except the third Saturday of every month, I strive to get small groups out of my rifles and a dirty barrel causes more grief that way than either piston system I've used. True enough cleaning the barrel as well as cleaning out the chamber still needs to happen for this purpose, but with a piston a wipe-down and relube of the BCG/receiver nowhere near the same chore.

Also I recently read here on this forum that a mere ten rounds a minute over long periods of time qualifies as burning up a barrel (I think it was in reference to Wanat in Afghanistan). For sure that's not mag dumps in burst or full auto and a case can be made that it's plinking rate-of-fire. If a chrome-lined steel barrel can't take that then whatever lube used in the receiver definitely can't.

FeuerFrei
12-12-2011, 2:08 PM
Me thinks the OP didn't want to start another DI vs Piston conflict here.
:facepalm:
OP,
For your monitary limitations you placed on your purchase I say buy the Smith or Stag.
There, wasn't that painless and non-argumentative. :D

drpepper
12-12-2011, 2:16 PM
Per an article in business week or wsj yes bushmaster was bought by freedom group and they are consolidating operations at a remington factory in another state. But the owner of bushmaster now says he plans to open another gun company(forgot the name) in the same old factory and employ the former bushmaster employees there.

Striker
12-12-2011, 2:40 PM
I would like to ask this to those who say a gun with a drop in kit is a bad thing: What is the difference, when looking at, say a HK416 upper, and an upper with a drop in kit? When you really look at the differences, there really arent any. They all function the same, only some have more parts than others. Some have gas adjustments, some have other springs here and there, bushings, and whatnot. But is an AR patterned rifle "that was designed as a piston from the ground up" really any functionally different than the rifles with a drop in piston?

In my opinion, no, they are not. They are short stroke systems with the same shaped carrier (either a one piece or a bolt on "piston" key) that vent gas at the gas block instead of inside the receiver. Sure, there are minor changes here and there that make them "different", but the end result is the same: Short stroke piston. I think it's a cop out to say that drop in piston systems are inherently inferior "because they werent designed for it". You might say I have a vested interest in saying this because I have one of those systems.....but no, I dont care what people think of the drop in piston kit I have...I know it just works. Every time.

And dont mistake me for someone who thinks the pistons have no drawbacks: They certainly include proprietary designs, extra weight, sometimes extra parts (depending on manufacturer), and ever so slightly decreased accuracy. But I would like to see the anecdotal evidence that supports the conclusion that short stroke "built from the ground up" pistons are better/different than "drop in" piston kits. I simply havent seen this to be true. I think if anything, reliability problems are born from incorrect installation rather than inherent design problems.

Just my own opinion though. And it's not worth anything :)

With due respect to you, the difference is that the HK 416 has been tortured both here and in s-holes around the world. The Colt, from what I understand is being tortured now to find out what it can really take. Their parts both large and small seem to hold up fine under the most rigorous of conditions. To my knowledge, your drop in piston kit hasn't been tested. You may have taken it to one of the aforementioned s-holes in the world and I don't know it, but mass testing, to my knowledge, hasn't been done. Theoretically, while sitting on a drawing board, maybe there is no difference, but from a practical point of view, there is one. At least, to me there is.

I don't like or dislike piston ARs. I think the same of them as I do any other weapon. If it's a quality piece, that's been tested in fairly large numbers, and come out on the other end working well, excellent. In the piston AR world though, there aren't many of those.

TwoAsoapbox
12-12-2011, 3:00 PM
Filthy 14 has over 40,000 rounds through it on the original barrel and most of its original parts. It has been abused, neglected and fast fired in shooting drills by dozens of different shooters. It wasnt thoroughly cleaned until around the 25k round mark, just lubed and quickly wiped from time to time. Its only had a handful of failures during all this time. Oh yeah, its a DI gun.

Piston systems in guns designed around that system are great, but in my opinion completely unnecessary for civilian AR-15s. Simply put its just more parts and more money.

Deadon
12-12-2011, 3:06 PM
Well I just bought a ACR. Ive had zero problems with it at 250 rounds. I would do it all over again in a second. Remington have bought Bushmaster and with the numbers for the ACR now in the 4000's Im sure we'll see more parts soon.
I can tell you this, people love this gun. Ive had a ton of questions about it at the range. The Ambi features are nothing but awesome.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/tiller2nv/photo41.jpg

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 5:06 PM
Me thinks the OP didn't want to start another DI vs Piston conflict here.
:facepalm:
OP,
For your monitary limitations you placed on your purchase I say buy the Smith or Stag.
There, wasn't that painless and non-argumentative. :D



Lol thank you....
any bad things about the Bushmaster?

MrPlink
12-12-2011, 5:24 PM
Lol thank you....
any bad things about the Bushmaster?

yeah, its a Bushmaster :43:

There was the mass hiccup with the FCG going full auto, but Bushy recalled em all, so should be a non-issue now. Most serious thing I could find (pretty damn serious IMO) from skulking around the ACR forum there have been a couple cases of bolts smashing themselves to bits.

Im sure the ACR defense force will be along shortly telling me I dont know what Im talking about, or because it didnt happen to theirs it couldnt possibly happen at all. Then the RobArm guy will pop up telling you to buy a XCR instead.

Zippiot
12-12-2011, 7:38 PM
How much is an XCR I cant seem to locate one on a website that usually pops up at the top of the google list...

Im leaning towards to Smith and Wesson, I owned one before (and have a 15-22 now) and had no issues with it. I do love the Magpull MOE look but the parts are cheap enough if down the road I decide to convert it

TwoAsoapbox
12-12-2011, 8:42 PM
Holy hard-on Deadon! Thats a beautiful sight! All CA legal right?...haha. The ACR is a sick weapon for sure. If I were to drop the cash on Piston it would be a SCAR or ACR too because they were built ground up around the piston system. Maybe someday when Im rich, hopefully we can still buy them down the road.

bloodhawke83
12-12-2011, 8:46 PM
welcome to CalGuns Zippiot, you'll never get a straight answer until your head explodes. :D

MrPlink
12-12-2011, 9:18 PM
they were built ground up around the piston system. Maybe someday when Im rich, hopefully we can still bye them down the road.

Thats the best approach if you want a piston rifle IMO. Down the road, SCAR probably isnt going anywhere, at least the 17. XCR is unpredictable as it comes from a smaller company. ACR might be completely bye bye soon though

SureShot241
12-12-2011, 10:12 PM
I would go with an Addax Tactical piston. They are an AR-15 piston manufacture and they make a great product.

http://www.addaxtactical.com/store/pc/ADDAX-TACTICAL-ZK-PATROL-MID-LENGTH-GAS-PISTON-UPPER-16-5-56-NATO-137p1708.htm

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 2:05 AM
welcome to CalGuns Zippiot, you'll never get a straight answer until your head explodes. :D

Its what I get for asking the general publics opinion of a controversial topic :rolleyes:

Its like being in a Ford vs Chevy forum (and Im a Dodge man)

Can anone confirm that on the S&W the grips are interchangable with Magpull products? My 15-22 doesnt look like you can but I could be wrong

MrPlink
12-13-2011, 2:14 AM
I
Can anone confirm that on the S&W the grips are interchangable with Magpull products? My 15-22 doesnt look like you can but I could be wrong

definitely are. The lower they use is of std spec so no issues should come up.

The 15-22 is a little different, but can also accept magpul PGs. I have a MOE on my 15-22

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 4:25 AM
lol.. long after that!










oh yah, and buy a GLOCK

I actually got very good responces when I was looking for a remington 700 5-R.

The only concerning factor of the M&P 15 is the twist rate, I would like to shoot green tip 5.56 and my math shows those are likely to keyhole with less than a 1:8
Good thing about AR's is barrels are plentiful!

But now here is the tricky question to answer, could a dissipator/full length piston be built (or does one exist?) I have an old 20" barrel laying around with a 1:7 twist... /hacksaw [cringe]

GM4spd
12-13-2011, 4:45 AM
Piston = more moving parts to fail.

Where is this info coming from? I've been shooting DI rifles and piston rifles
for over 40 years---guess which one I've seen have more parts failures? They
weren't PISTON jobs for sure.If you want to discuss ANY other type failures
it's NOT pistons,either. Pete

http://www.fototime.com/EF030E6A56A289E/standard.jpg

Paul_R
12-13-2011, 5:06 AM
Gotta love the piston vs. DI catfights :D

I have both and both work great. Love the ease of cleaning the piston unit and the fact that I'm not getting gas dumped in my face.

I picked up a sweet used Addax piston upper here on calguns for $650 so deals can be had on quality stuff if you're patient.

sonnyt650
12-13-2011, 6:04 AM
I'll continue to push for kits (nothing bad to say about the Bushmaster clone of the ARES kit and the Adams Arms rifle/mid-length kit) even though they aren't "field tested". The way I figure if you're an armorer you're not going to go out of your way to put together a rifle from untried products. Until there was a significant call for red dots they just didn't issue them, and I'm sure they still field standard bolt carriers rather than those with slick coatings. They don't even have armoury-adjustable gas blocks though the gas flow is the biggest variable out there for ARs. When you aren't talking about complete rifles for our armed forces it's more of a stick-to-what-works process than trying to find the very best parts for the job.

shadow65
12-13-2011, 7:22 AM
My CMMG piston 5.56 has run great and accuracy is also good.
Dave N

TwoAsoapbox
12-13-2011, 10:09 AM
I tried to put an ambi safety in my 15-22 but it was difficult to actuate meaning it was really stiff. I have installed them in my two ARs with no problems and would love to have one in my 22. Any thoughts Zippiot or MrPlink since it sounds like you guys both have one?

TwoAsoapbox
12-13-2011, 10:16 AM
GM4spd. Im not talking about two different rifles. My statement was simply that a DI AR has fewer moving parts than a Piston AR, pretty simple statement. Im assuming you are comparing an AK to an AR in your comment and thats like comparing apples to oranges. Time will tell if the piston AR is more reliable than the DI system. For military applications I can see the need for a cooler operating and inherently cleaner weapon that requires less cleaning. But for civilian applications a piston AR is unnecessary IMO.

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 12:31 PM
I tried to put an ambi safety in my 15-22 but it was difficult to actuate meaning it was really stiff. I have installed them in my two ARs with no problems and would love to have one in my 22. Any thoughts Zippiot or MrPlink since it sounds like you guys both have one?

I know the bolt catch is designed for a .22 upper my best guess is the mag controls are the same. What makes it different is unknown to me, once again best guess is different dimensions.

Not a huge aftermarket for the 15-22 so I dont think they will have an ambi-controls parts kit

Bellehood
12-13-2011, 12:38 PM
I actually got very good responces when I was looking for a remington 700 5-R.

The only concerning factor of the M&P 15 is the twist rate, I would like to shoot green tip 5.56 and my math shows those are likely to keyhole with less than a 1:8
Good thing about AR's is barrels are plentiful!

But now here is the tricky question to answer, could a dissipator/full length piston be built (or does one exist?) I have an old 20" barrel laying around with a 1:7 twist... /hacksaw [cringe]

by green-tip, I'm assuming 62 grain?

They will not keyhole in 1-in-7, 1-in-8, or 1-in-9. You are good to go.

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 12:46 PM
by green-tip, I'm assuming 62 grain?

They will not keyhole in 1-in-7, 1-in-8, or 1-in-9. You are good to go.

You sure about the 1:9? Ive only ever shot 1:7
Math food for thought:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/math/8/4/d/84d1d28d700535884f8a2c2c2403b641.png

C = 150 (use 180 for muzzle velocities higher than 2,800 f/s)
D = bullet's diameter in inches
L = bullet's length in inches
SG = bullet's specific gravity (10.9 for lead-core bullets, which cancels out the second half of the equation)

Specific gravity of a FMJ 62 grain penetrator is roughly 9-9.5

I guess it works

jaylinzee
12-13-2011, 1:07 PM
I've owned a Stag Arms Model 8 for about a year now and can't give an accurate count (hundreds and hundreds) of rounds I've sent through it. It works great, consistently, and has tight shot groups. Difference in cleaning time is huge! Some carbon DOES get in the receiver but it's almost nothing compared to gas impingement. Most collects around the front sight post.

Check out this article and watch the videos: http://gunblast.com/Stag-Model8.htm

I'm prior Army 11B and have had my fair share of experience with "standard" gas impingement. Both standard and piston drives work great but I paid attention when I read that special ops uses pistons.

My Stag was about $1,250 after tax and Cali background (riflegear.com).

Best of luck.

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 1:51 PM
I've owned a Stag Arms Model 8 for about a year now and can't give an accurate count (hundreds and hundreds) of rounds I've sent through it. It works great, consistently, and has tight shot groups. Difference in cleaning time is huge! Some carbon DOES get in the receiver but it's almost nothing compared to gas impingement. Most collects around the front sight post.

Check out this article and watch the videos: http://gunblast.com/Stag-Model8.htm

I'm prior Army 11B and have had my fair share of experience with "standard" gas impingement. Both standard and piston drives work great but I paid attention when I read that special ops uses pistons.

My Stag was about $1,250 after tax and Cali background (riflegear.com).

Best of luck.

Thank you for the response! Ill have to check the link out a bit later.
If you had to redeploy would you take a piston or DI system or is it an non-issue?

SOCAL-PRINCE
12-13-2011, 2:13 PM
Zippiot, I have a stag M8 and an LWRC m6a2 and they are by far the best AR's I've owned. I've used the DI system in the Army for 8 years and although it did its job, I would much rather have been issued a piston AR. IMO, it is definitely a big improvement over DI. Cleaner, reliable, and simple to maintain.

Like others have said, the proprietary parts suck but get extra parts just in case. Also, if you get a retrofit piston kit you can always change it to DI if you don't like it. I doubt that though....Just my .02

TwoAsoapbox
12-13-2011, 2:44 PM
For those of you guys that have Stagg M8s, my buddy has one and is having issues with it. He had a good shooting sesh but after disassembling it and cleaning he is having problems. It will shoot one round then only cycle part way before closing again not ejecting the spent case completely and not picking a new round up from the mag. I dont have any piston guns and Ive never personally experienced a failure like this so Im not sure whats wrong with his gun. Im assuming that he must have re-assembled it wrong after cleaning but he assures me he didnt. Any thoughts? Kinda concerning really for it to shoot well then start having failures on every shot.

MrPlink
12-13-2011, 2:46 PM
I guess it works

it does, faster twist is for the really big boys or tracers

stormy_clothing
12-13-2011, 2:46 PM
Why do you want a piston?

You can get a quality DI AR for around a thousand. You CANT get a quality piston AR for a thousand.

I would much rather have a good DI AR versus a bottom barrel piston AR.

lies

The stag /cmmg rifle aka with or without sights is made by the same quality manufacturer that sells to law enforcement. The same mil spec that goes into 10's of thousands of ar15's they produce every year.

I've shot more rounds through that particular rifle than any other one I have had. I can't recall a single issue, not one ftf or double feed or even light strike and I use the cheapest ammo I can find. There likely has been something at some point but it is so infrequent I can't remember it.

I maintain them by cleaning them after every trip to the range like I do with anything else but that's it.

Only my ak's rival the consistency of function in rifles.

As an alternative for additional money you may look into adcor especially the bear elite - it's 1500 bucks but they are very well built and have a sweet non recip forward charging handle and have been durability tested well beyond even lwrc for much less dinero.

That MOE bushie is not GP though would personally stay away from 1/7 twist barrels unless all you shoot is 70+gr rounds.

Zippiot
12-13-2011, 3:23 PM
lies

The stag /cmmg rifle aka with or without sights is made by the same quality manufacturer that sells to law enforcement. The same mil spec that goes into 10's of thousands of ar15's they produce every year.

I've shot more rounds through that particular rifle than any other one I have had. I can't recall a single issue, not one ftf or double feed or even light strike and I use the cheapest ammo I can find. There likely has been something at some point but it is so infrequent I can't remember it.

I maintain them by cleaning them after every trip to the range like I do with anything else but that's it.

Only my ak's rival the consistency of function in rifles.

As an alternative for additional money you may look into adcor especially the bear elite - it's 1500 bucks but they are very well built and have a sweet non recip forward charging handle and have been durability tested well beyond even lwrc for much less dinero.

That MOE bushie is not GP though would personally stay away from 1/7 twist barrels unless all you shoot is 70+gr rounds.



All good info but newbie question...... what is "GP"

I was going to dump a lot more on my AR project but decided that for 600 bux I can get 2k rounds of ammo. Thats a lot of range time that I cannot turn down, and since its not my service rifle "very good" is a good enough rating for me

Arnelcheeze
12-13-2011, 5:04 PM
got about 3000 rounds through my Stag 8, mostly XM193, some Tula/Wolf, never had a single issue. cleaning is a breeze, but honestly i have only cleaned it about 4 times.
With all the hoopla about possible op-rod failure (with its simple design,I don't ever see it failing but you never know), by all the piston haters, I contacted Stag and a replacement op rod costs $60, so i ordered one along with an extra piston spring which was a few dollars just to have in my parts bin, extra parts is always a great idea for everything.

mcpain
12-13-2011, 8:31 PM
I am new to guns in general and im interested in purchasing the best AR15 I can for under 1500 bucks... DI or piston, What are my best options for manufactors?

Hoop
12-13-2011, 8:43 PM
I am new to guns in general and im interested in purchasing the best AR15 I can for under 1500 bucks... DI or piston, What are my best options for manufactors?

What sort of AR do you want? A carbine, varmint rifle, do-everything-rifle, what kind of accuracy are you hoping for, etc etc etc............

Hoop
12-13-2011, 8:45 PM
Filthy 14 has over 40,000 rounds through it on the original barrel and most of its original parts...Oh yeah, its a DI gun.


Lies all lies. DI guns don't work the internet says so!

TwoAsoapbox
12-14-2011, 5:21 PM
I am new to guns in general and im interested in purchasing the best AR15 I can for under 1500 bucks... DI or piston, What are my best options for manufactors?

I say build your own. It only takes a little research, a few tools and of course time and money. When you build your own it will be unique and exactly the way you want it...plus its really fun and you will intimately know your rifle.

I built mine for around $1200-$1300 (including the optic). The lower is a Stag with a Stag LPK (lower parts kit), ambi safety, anti creep pins and a Magpul ASAP for mounting my 1-2 point sling. The furniture (butt stock, pistol grip and hand guard) are all Magpul MOE in OD green. The upper, BCG (bolt carrier group) and charging handle are all BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing). The upper is a carbine length DI (direct impingement) gas system and the barrel is a pinned 14.5" light weight profile. I topped it with an Eotech 512. It is the fastest pointing, lightest and most enjoyable AR I have ever shot.

I have already made my opinions on DI vs piston very clear on this thread so I wont go there.

Like Hoop asked above you need to figure out what type of rifle you want. After that, stick to quality companies and you wont go wrong. For $1500 you can build an awesome gun and put some really nice optics on it. Also, ask a lot of questions.

Good companies include: BCM, Stag, Larue, Spikes Tactical, Daniel Defense....and many others.

mcpain
12-14-2011, 5:27 PM
Thats a great question.... Since I am so new to this Im really not to sure. This would be my first AR so I should probably go with a all around type... Although I must admit.... The tactical set ups have caught my eye! With me being a firefighter in San Diego County I have close friends that are Law Enforcement and Force Recon Marines, and they all tell me different things! Haha. So another friend told me that all my answers can be found on calguns! So here I am! I am just looking for a tough, reliable firearm that is gonna enable me to go out and have fun and protect my family.

mcpain
12-14-2011, 5:34 PM
I say build your own. It only takes a little research, a few tools and of course time and money. When you build your own it will be unique and exactly the way you want it...plus its really fun and you will intimately know your rifle.

I built mine for around $1200 (including the optic). The lower is a Stagg with Stagg parts, ambi safety, anti creep pins and a Magpul ASAP for mounting my 1/2 point sling. The furniture (butt stock, pistol grip and hand guard) are all Magpul MOE in OD green. The upper, BCG (bolt carrier group) and charging handle are all BCM (Bravo Company Manufacturing). The upper is a carbine length DI (direct impingement) gas system and the barrel is a pinned 14.5" light weight profile. I topped it with an Eotech 512. It is the fastest pointing, lightest and most enjoyable AR I have ever shot.

I have already made my opinions on DI vs piston very clear on this thread so I wont go there.

Like Hoop asked above you need to figure out what type of rifle you want. After that, stick to quality companies and you wont go wrong. Also, ask a lot of questions.

I think that that would probably be my best bet! I would love to learn how these awesome machines work anyways!! Seems so weird how a 33 year old can become so intrigued with firearms in such a short amount of time.
I have been doing some research the last few days and have found that there are a lot of opinions on a lot of different manufactures. I will say that the ones I have read on Stag, Magpul, and BCM were great! So ill dig a lil deeper on those products!!

Thank you for the info! I appreciate it!

Zippiot
12-15-2011, 2:57 PM
Picked up a black Spike's Tactical Lower (stripped) and am starting the build/parts soon. Ill get some pics up