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View Full Version : featureless and ar pistols?????


jbush
12-10-2011, 9:21 PM
Can someone briefly describe Featureless vs Featured. I see pics of rifle with flash suppressors etc that are featureless. What make a rifle featureless???

What is the difference in a short barreled ar that separates pistol from short barreled rifle????

Thanks

Ubermcoupe
12-10-2011, 9:24 PM
What is the difference in a short barreled ar that separates pistol from short barreled rifle????


How it is DROS’d and the lack of a shoulder stock.

For an AR pistol to be an AR pistol the lower must be DROS’s as pistol, versus a rifle.

A DROS’d AR pistol lower cannot have a stock.

zfields
12-10-2011, 9:38 PM
Jbush, You need to check out the flowchart. basically a featureless rifle has none of the "evil features" EX. Folding / collapsible stock, flash hider, pistol grip, forward grip etc.

You may be mistaking a Flash hider for a muzzle brake. Some of them look similar, but different functions.

MrPlink
12-10-2011, 9:55 PM
How it is DROSíd and the lack of a shoulder stock.

For an AR pistol to be an AR pistol the lower must be DROSís as pistol, versus a rifle.

A DROSíd AR pistol lower cannot have a stock.

OR, dont dros the lower at all build one yourself.

either way, it gets a bit more complex than that to stay legal. If it is something you are interested in, do a search on the forums. There are tons of threads about it that will help you stay legal.

louscamaro91
12-10-2011, 9:57 PM
Can't have a "featureless" AR pistol.
One of the features is a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. We're screwed there.

jbush
12-11-2011, 12:03 AM
Don't want to jack my own thread but I will for the moment. I've never shot a rifle with a muzzle brake or a flash suppressor. I understand the basic difference. But, can someone explain in what situation I would want one over the other???

zfields
12-11-2011, 12:11 AM
Comp/muzzle brake helps with recoil, and reducing muzzle climb to speed up follow up shots.

Flash hider helps well....hide flash. More of a military application IMO

Lagduf
12-11-2011, 12:52 AM
Can't have a "featureless" AR pistol.
One of the features is a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. We're screwed there.

I'm just imagining an AR pistol with a monster man grip or grip fin now. Is it still a pistol without a pistol grip :p

Colt-45
12-11-2011, 12:59 AM
Can't have a "featureless" AR pistol.
One of the features is a detachable magazine outside of the pistol grip. We're screwed there.

Those would be some un-tacticool AR pistols.:D

SJgunguy24
12-11-2011, 1:07 AM
I'm just imagining an AR pistol with a monster man grip or grip fin now. Is it still a pistol without a pistol grip :p

It's not the grip, it's the mag that loads out side of the grip.

Lagduf
12-11-2011, 1:39 AM
It's not the grip, it's the mag that loads out side of the grip.

But is a pistol still a pistol without a pistol grip? ;)

unusedusername
12-11-2011, 2:10 AM
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Rossi-Ranch-Hand.jpg

This mare's leg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare%27s_Leg) is a handgun in California.

Here (http://www.calgunlaws.com/index.php/general-reference/69-dictionary/346-handguns.html) is the California definition of a handgun (as given by C Michel's website):
A handgun is any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person that has a barrel length of less than 16 inches. The term also applies to any device that has a barrel length of 16 inches or more which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches. (Penal Code 12001(a).)

MrPlink
12-11-2011, 3:27 AM
I did not get the impression OP was asking about a featureless pistol, but if so thats def a no go, unless you can figure out a way to make one that has a magwell inside the PG.

707electrician
12-11-2011, 11:10 AM
How it is DROSíd and the lack of a shoulder stock.

For an AR pistol to be an AR pistol the lower must be DROSís as pistol, versus a rifle.

A DROSíd AR pistol lower cannot have a stock.

Can a stripped lower be DROS'd as a pistol? I thought they were DROS'd as "other"

I am currently looking into getting another stripped lower so I can build a 9mm AR pistol but I have never looked into the AR pistol thing

Quiet
12-11-2011, 11:42 AM
Can a stripped lower be DROS'd as a pistol? I thought they were DROS'd as "other"

I am currently looking into getting another stripped lower so I can build a 9mm AR pistol but I have never looked into the AR pistol thing

You're mixing two different things.

ATF 4473 = handgun, long gun or other
CA DOS = handgun or long gun

A stripped reciever is 4473'd as a other and DROS'd as a long gun.

A stripped reciever can not be DROS'd as a handgun, unless you have an exemption, because it is not on the CA DOJ approved list for handgun sales.
Exemptions that would allow a stripped reciever to be DROS's as a handgun are: LEO sale, PPT of one that was previously DROS'd as a handgun or out-of-state intra-familial gift.

challenger
12-11-2011, 8:40 PM
What if the pistol grip was removed and a bullpup style trigger assembly was mounted to the mag well? The new grip would then house the magazine.

MrPlink
12-11-2011, 8:46 PM
What if the pistol grip was removed and a bullpup style trigger assembly was mounted to the mag well? The new grip would then house the magazine.

you would really be on the fringe, Im sure the head honchos at CGF would not advice this either.

Not to mention, if you have the cash/time to make something like that, there are a million and one other things I could think of that are more worth while.

The design is just not conducive to what you are getting at is really the bottom line

pyro3k2
12-11-2011, 8:52 PM
I've been wondering something similar for a while, a MMG or a hammer head does not meet the legal definition of a pistol grip. But if you install one of those items on your AR/AK pistol then there wouldn't legally be a pistol grip for the mag to load into to begin with. Im not going to be the test case by any means but I would like to see where this one goes or if it even makes it past the theorycrafting phase.

MrPlink
12-11-2011, 9:05 PM
I've been wondering something similar for a while, a MMG or a hammer head does not meet the legal definition of a pistol grip. But if you install one of those items on your AR/AK pistol then there wouldn't legally be a pistol grip for the mag to load into to begin with. Im not going to be the test case by any means but I would like to see where this one goes or if it even makes it past the theorycrafting phase.

I do not see this as making a difference.


PC 30515 (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.

This translates as a detachable magazine must be inside the pistol grip in order to not be an AW.

pyro3k2
12-11-2011, 9:25 PM
I do not see this as making a difference.


PC 30515 (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.

This translates as a detachable magazine must be inside the pistol grip in order to not be an AW.

I'm going to re-read the PC before attempt to make an educated response to that.

WokMaster1
12-11-2011, 9:31 PM
I do not see this as making a difference.


PC 30515 (D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location
outside of the pistol grip.

This translates as a detachable magazine must be inside the pistol grip in order to not be an AW.

Plink, is the Hammerhead grip from Exile Machine considered a pistol grip? As far as CA DOJ is concern, they do not consider it a pistol grip on an AR rifle. So is it safe to say that it is the same situation.

Merc1138
12-11-2011, 9:48 PM
The pistol grip on a rifle, and the pistol grip on a pistol are two different situations.

Even if you took the pistol grip off of an AR pistol, the mag is still outside of the pistol grip. Putting a hammerhead or monsterman on an AR pistol still means that the mag is outside of the non-existent pistol grip, so it would still be an AW if it had a detachable mag.

challenger
12-11-2011, 10:12 PM
The pistol grip on a rifle, and the pistol grip on a pistol are two different situations.

Even if you took the pistol grip off of an AR pistol, the mag is still outside of the pistol grip. Putting a hammerhead or monsterman on an AR pistol still means that the mag is outside of the non-existent pistol grip, so it would still be an AW if it had a detachable mag.

No MMG,no Hammerhead simply use the mag well as the grip and utilize a few linkage pieces from r/c cars connected to a modified trigger. Bullpup AR pistol.

WokMaster1
12-11-2011, 10:13 PM
The pistol grip on a rifle, and the pistol grip on a pistol are two different situations.

Even if you took the pistol grip off of an AR pistol, the mag is still outside of the pistol grip. Putting a hammerhead or monsterman on an AR pistol still means that the mag is outside of the non-existent pistol grip, so it would still be an AW if it had a detachable mag.

So an M1 carbine type pistol would still be considered an AW in CA then.

Merc1138
12-11-2011, 10:23 PM
No MMG,no Hammerhead simply use the mag well as the grip and utilize a few linkage pieces from r/c cars connected to a modified trigger. Bullpup AR pistol.

That's not really an AR pistol anymore at that point, but as long as you got a pistol grip around the mag well then it'd be legit.

So an M1 carbine type pistol would still be considered an AW in CA then.

Even the ruger charger is an AW in California without a magazine lock. Read the CA handgun ban flowchart up at the top of the page.

WokMaster1
12-11-2011, 10:31 PM
Thanks Merc. I did but was wondering about the non PG. Stupid laws:-(

Merc1138
12-11-2011, 10:33 PM
Thanks Merc. I did but was wondering about the non PG. Stupid laws:-(

With the way the law is written, from what I'm reading it doesn't matter if the handgun doesn't have a pistol grip in the first place. I'm not saying courts or the DOJ have said otherwise. However, the reason the mare's leg is definitely legal, is that the magazine isn't detachable. Yeah, the laws are a stupid mess.

MrPlink
12-11-2011, 10:41 PM
Plink, is the Hammerhead grip from Exile Machine considered a pistol grip? As far as CA DOJ is concern, they do not consider it a pistol grip on an AR rifle. So is it safe to say that it is the same situation.

no its not, but the lack of a pistol grip does not make a pistol exempt from 30515(D)


if the (detachable) magazine is NOT INSIDE a pistol grip it is not legal.

It wouldnt matter if you had a gun that was just one big tube in shape with no protrusions save the magazine, if it is
1) detachable
2) not contained within a pistol grip
then you have an AW

anybody here have a Sten pistol they can post as an example?

jokat989
12-12-2011, 12:13 AM
lets illistrate this concept of 'featureless' handguns

1. featureless and able to use detachable mags of any(legal) capacty
126156

2. featured (mag outside of grip, threaded bbl, and bbl shroud) and only legal with fixed 10 round mag
126157

SJgunguy24
12-12-2011, 5:29 AM
What if the pistol grip was removed and a bullpup style trigger assembly was mounted to the mag well? The new grip would then house the magazine.

A bullpup action would need a stock to enclose everything and keep it from falling apart. Then there's the buffer tube and all of that moving mass to deal with.


No MMG,no Hammerhead simply use the mag well as the grip and utilize a few linkage pieces from r/c cars connected to a modified trigger. Bullpup AR pistol.

That might skirt into zip gun status, which is gray bar hotel time anyway. I understand where your going but for this idea to be viable you need to start out with something like the Olympic Arms ar pistol with the action spring above the receiver.