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View Full Version : Converting airsoft to machine gun?


bighead
12-09-2011, 6:30 PM
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DY2sWiZ8BizI%26fea ture%3Dshare&feature=share&v=Y2sWiZ8BizI&gl=US

bighead
12-09-2011, 6:31 PM
Just a heads up your airsoft could be the subject of scrutiny LOL.

bloodhawke83
12-09-2011, 6:33 PM
How did that moron get hired?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

xxINKxx
12-09-2011, 6:41 PM
Ya. Don't understand how they hire these people to enforce gun laws when they are so ignorant.

A buddy of ours got stopped by the ATF/DOJ outside a gun show (they were watching people under cover) and was questioned about how he was taking guns home. He mentioned he had a curio & relic license and the guns were legal to take home right then. The agent had no clue what curio&relic was and had to call his supervisor to find out what it was and if it was ok...srsly? How do they enforce stuff when they have no clue about the laws

njineermike
12-09-2011, 6:44 PM
Maybe I can convert my coffee maker into a time machine.

reidnez
12-09-2011, 6:44 PM
Ya. Don't understand how they hire these people to enforce gun laws when they are so ignorant.

A buddy of ours got stopped by the ATF/DOJ outside a gun show (they were watching people under cover) and was questioned about how he was taking guns home. He mentioned he had a curio & relic license and the guns were legal to take home right then. The agent had no clue what curio&relic was and had to call his supervisor to find out what it was and if it was ok...srsly? How do they enforce stuff when they have no clue about the laws

Not trying to throw up the flag here, but how exactly did this come about? Was ATF running a checkpoint in the parking lot? I've never seen an ATF squad car and never heard of random checks. Seems to me if you're dealing with ATF in person, it's generally a sting and you've generally done something very wrong. Again, not calling BS, just curious.

bighead
12-09-2011, 6:59 PM
Hmmm, I have an old microwave, maybe I can easily convert it into a Mac-11?

Endofcomment
12-09-2011, 7:06 PM
Hmmm, I have an old microwave, maybe I can easily convert it into a Mac-11?

I want to see documentation that this is possible. Also include a tutorial I want to convert mine...

Lol

chead
12-09-2011, 7:20 PM
Why go for a Mac-11? Mine is a fully-automatic mini pizza launcher. Yummy and DEADLY.*

*Note to the BATFE: This is intended purely as humor. My microwave will only launch one mini pizza per trigger pull. All my mini pizzas are under 30mm and do not constitute a destructive device.

CK_32
12-09-2011, 7:21 PM
Link goes to nothing...

chead
12-09-2011, 7:22 PM
Link goes to nothing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sWiZ8BizI

email
12-09-2011, 7:26 PM
ATFail

Ubermcoupe
12-09-2011, 7:27 PM
All my mini pizzas are under 30mm and do not constitute a destructive device.

FTW!!! :rofl:

C3ncal559
12-09-2011, 9:48 PM
Sh*t then y did I waste all this money building my my ar when I could of coverted my mp5 n my nephew m4 air soft into machine guns !!!! Lol people are crazy

96232
12-09-2011, 10:37 PM
What an idiot, does he really think that a "gun" designed for plastic BB's can withstand the force of a real cartridge?

shark92651
12-09-2011, 10:58 PM
This story made the rounds about a year and a half ago. And yes "Special" agent Crenshaw is special, like short bus special. The airsoft guns were eventually returned.

pyro3k2
12-09-2011, 11:01 PM
First airsoft, next will be our real guns. There is plenty of documented cases of people converting their real guns into machine guns (illegally I might add). If there logic and actions go unchecked would you really put it past them to use this as a way to attack 2A?

Sleighter
12-09-2011, 11:16 PM
Did anyone ever file that freedom of information request? That would make for some great reading. Unless their method of "converting" is to slowly change out all of the parts for m-4 parts, except the stock of course ;)

louscamaro91
12-09-2011, 11:22 PM
I needed a good laugh before hitting the sack. I will dream big now knowing I can cut my spending by 80%...

Brown Rock
12-09-2011, 11:41 PM
Maybe I can convert my coffee maker into a time machine.

Can I borrow it when you are done?

robcoe
12-09-2011, 11:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sWiZ8BizI


Yea, he can go ahead and try that, I'll be over here behind these sandbags with the first aid kit for when it blows up in his face.

That guy is so stupid I am amazed he can spell ATF.

h0use
12-10-2011, 12:48 AM
I would love to see them convert an airsoft gun to shoot real ammo...

Mossy Man
12-10-2011, 9:12 AM
I would love to see them convert an airsoft gun to shoot real ammo...

it's easy, take the magpul stock off of the airsoft gun, put it onto a real gun.

there, easily "converted" to an assault rifle.

still not a machine gun, though.

Mossy Man
12-10-2011, 9:19 AM
actually what i'd like to be a fly on the wall when Crenshaw got called into his supervisor's office after hearing about it.

"CRENSHAWWWW! GET YOUR *** IN HERE NOW!"

tonelar
12-22-2011, 7:17 PM
Apparently the receiver is too close to the real dimensions;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

Not a machine gun like the agent originally claims, but as a way of getting by the requirement to DROS a lower...

Mossy Man
12-22-2011, 7:19 PM
here's the follow up video to this


kPx_kr44r9M

njineermike
12-22-2011, 8:10 PM
So, now they're saying it's bad because it looks real? Do they just make this stuff up as they go along?

tonelar
12-22-2011, 11:37 PM
So, now they're saying it's bad because it looks real? Do they just make this stuff up as they go along?

From the article I linked to:

Now one of those critics is reversing his position, saying at least one airsoft manufacturer has taken the quest to be authentic a little too far.

“The airsoft can be converted to an AR-15,” firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio told FoxNews.com after testing the make and model of airsoft guns seized by the ATF.

Having concluded that several other airsoft guns could not be converted to fire real ammunition, Gonnuscio said he was surprised to find that he was able to to transform this particular gun to the real thing *-- and with “minimal work,” because its bottom half, or “receiver,” is so similar to an AR-15's.

To make the airsoft receiver function just like an AR-15’s, Gonnuscio said, “All you have to do is drill one hole.”*

And once that's out of the way, the rest is even easier. The AR-15 receiver is the only part of the semi-automatic rifle that is given a serial number, and is the only part that is regulated. All the remaining parts of the real thing can be purchased by anyone – any kid, criminal or terrorist.

So now I want to know: Did the ATF return those airsofts to the retailer?

colossians323
12-23-2011, 5:00 AM
Do they just make this stuff up as they go along?

Yes

dieselpower
12-23-2011, 5:06 AM
I didn't read the whole thread.

The fail is HERE with some of you, not the ATF.

These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.

Nathan Krynn
12-23-2011, 5:11 AM
These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.

diesselpower is correct.

Also about the BATFE agent at a gun show, they are at every gun show you have every been too, I guarantee.

Last one I went too (we don't put up booths for work this was jsut for fun) I counted 6 I knew personally. All plain cloths.

The War Wagon
12-23-2011, 5:28 AM
Maybe I can convert my coffee maker into a time machine.

FOR THE WIN!!! :laugh:

CSACANNONEER
12-23-2011, 6:09 AM
Maybe you guys just have NEVER SEEN an airsoft gun that is easy to convert. I have. About ten years ago, I had a guy show me some of his classic airsoft collection. The AR he had was a normal M16 lower with the holes for the FCG drilled in a different location. It even came with a FA trigger already installed. He also had a couple of guns with intergral surpressors which looked as if they would function correctly with a real barrel installed. Many of these early airsoft guns (from the 80's) used as many real parts as they could and ended up being imported into the US as "toys" before anyone had any idea what they really were. Granted, the one's in this story are not the same but, some airsoft guns don't need as much work as one might think to legally be considered "machineguns".

BRANDON7766
12-23-2011, 9:54 AM
I thought you could take guns home from a gun show legally...bypass g the 10 day?

My dad and I used to always take them home while I was growing up.

RazzB7
12-23-2011, 9:56 AM
None of my airsoft guns could easily be converted (Tokyo Marui) The magwells are even different sized.

Sniper3142
12-23-2011, 10:05 AM
There are several Government agencies that are staffed with MORONS (DOJ and ATF are 2 that come to mind relating to firearms). :mad:

njineermike
12-23-2011, 10:05 AM
I didn't read the whole thread.

The fail is HERE with some of you, not the ATF.

These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.

By the logic the BATFE used, bullets could potentially end up in a bad guys gun, so they should be confiscated. Since an AK47 reciever can be made with sheet metal and a drill, and a bad guy could use it to build a homemade gun, all sheetmetal and drills should be confiscated. Billet aluminum could be used to build any frame for any gun with machine tools, so aluminum and machine tools should be confiscated. The original sten was made from a metal bedpost. Maybe they should confiscate beds just to be safe.

When I was in college, I participated in a few "studies" where engineering students were asked to devise "unconventional devices" out of things that could be purchased at grocery stores, hardware stores and department stores locally. Using the BATFE logic, dishwashing detergent, chlorine bleach, welders, gas BBQ's, iron pipe, electrical wire and air compressors should all be confiscated. If we could figure out how to make something that does damage, I'm sure somebody else could too.

My issue is the confiscation of LEGAL ITEMS because some "bad guy" could use them to commit mayhem. We already have a flier being circulated by these same overzealous jackboots implying that a 2 week stock of food is indicative of a terrorist. What follows? Are we to be rationed food to keep it away from the "bad guys"? The BATFE has a current policy of modifying LEGAL weapons into illegal weapons, then displaying these "illegal" weapons in court for the trial. The rationale is that part of the rules about what constitutes "legal" vs "illegal" is that to be legal, a gun must not be "readily modifiable" into full auto. What exactly is the legal definition of "readily modifiable"? Having a purely subjective method of determining what is and is not illegal, and allowing the self-same organization that interprets the rules to be the enforcement mechanism is a recipe for tyranny.

Australia has already banned most personal possesion of guns to keep them away from bad guys. Then they banned knives when bad guys used them instead. Now glass is on the chopping block to stop the "bad guys" from using it as a weapon. Funny thing is, no matter what they ban, the "bad guys" always manage to get their hands on something to continue being "bad guys". If we aren't careful, and don't stand up to this, we could find ourselves the "bad guy" for having something perfectly legal to own (like an airsoft rifle or a box of canned soup), but some subjective interpretation of rules has it suddenly in the "illegal" category.

zfields
12-23-2011, 10:09 AM
I didn't read the whole thread.

The fail is HERE with some of you, not the ATF.

These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.

interesting, you happen to have any links to info on this?

defcon
12-23-2011, 11:04 AM
here's my M60 airsoft shell using a .22LR Marlin 795

relax its just a dress up kit lol

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6470199371_9446762103_o.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7028/6470199471_befea2f29b_o.jpg

emptybottle151
12-23-2011, 12:22 PM
I remember vaguely that someone used a airsoft with a glock slide/barrel and it supposedly worked.

HonkingAntelope
12-23-2011, 3:38 PM
So, now they're saying it's bad because it looks real? Do they just make this stuff up as they go along?

Armed Toddler-burners screw up once - is anyone honestly surprised?

bighead
12-23-2011, 3:52 PM
I didn't read the whole thread.

The fail is HERE with some of you, not the ATF.

These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.

ATF agent said convert to machine gun.It's in the video.

FAILX2

dieselpower
12-23-2011, 4:11 PM
By the logic the BATFE used, bullets could potentially end up in a bad guys gun, so they should be confiscated. Since an AK47 receiver can be made with sheet metal and a drill, and a bad guy could use it to build a homemade gun, all sheetmetal and drills should be confiscated. Billet aluminum could be used to build any frame for any gun with machine tools, so aluminum and machine tools should be confiscated. The original sten was made from a metal bedpost. Maybe they should confiscate beds just to be safe.

When I was in college, I participated in a few "studies" where engineering students were asked to devise "unconventional devices" out of things that could be purchased at grocery stores, hardware stores and department stores locally. Using the BATFE logic, dishwashing detergent, chlorine bleach, welders, gas BBQ's, iron pipe, electrical wire and air compressors should all be confiscated. If we could figure out how to make something that does damage, I'm sure somebody else could too.

My issue is the confiscation of LEGAL ITEMS because some "bad guy" could use them to commit mayhem. We already have a flier being circulated by these same overzealous jackboots implying that a 2 week stock of food is indicative of a terrorist. What follows? Are we to be rationed food to keep it away from the "bad guys"? The BATFE has a current policy of modifying LEGAL weapons into illegal weapons, then displaying these "illegal" weapons in court for the trial. The rationale is that part of the rules about what constitutes "legal" vs "illegal" is that to be legal, a gun must not be "readily modifiable" into full auto. What exactly is the legal definition of "readily modifiable"? Having a purely subjective method of determining what is and is not illegal, and allowing the self-same organization that interprets the rules to be the enforcement mechanism is a recipe for tyranny.

Australia has already banned most personal possesion of guns to keep them away from bad guys. Then they banned knives when bad guys used them instead. Now glass is on the chopping block to stop the "bad guys" from using it as a weapon. Funny thing is, no matter what they ban, the "bad guys" always manage to get their hands on something to continue being "bad guys". If we aren't careful, and don't stand up to this, we could find ourselves the "bad guy" for having something perfectly legal to own (like an airsoft rifle or a box of canned soup), but some subjective interpretation of rules has it suddenly in the "illegal" category.

You are missing the point of my point. FTR I think any and all laws are illegal as they pertain to limiting a persons right to defend themselves. Even FELONS have a right to self defense. I believe Felons should only lose the right to CARRY firearms since they proved themselves untrustworthy in public.

NFA and GCA are clear. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck. The Lower half of these M4 Toys are like 90% IDENTICAL, to a real M4. Not just an AR15 lower (third hole). I was told (never confirmed) that the selector can be used as well.

We are in agreement on the nanny state thing, but just because you and I hate driving 65, doesn't mean we can do 85. The BATFE are doing what they were told they can do.

interesting, you happen to have any links to info on this?
No. This is word of mouth from BATFE agents.
ATF agent said convert to machine gun.It's in the video.

FAILX2

Yup, I saw that too. He is correct. It can be converted into a Fully Functional M4, which by the NFA & GCA is a machine gun.

Try selling an 81% lower with a select fire hole drilled into it. I'll write you while you are in prison serving your time. :D

bighead
12-23-2011, 4:44 PM
What the agent said is impossible to do.Again, his stated conclusion was the rifles he confiscated could be converted to machine guns with minimal work.That statement is universally false.He is 100% wrong.

Steve1968LS2
12-23-2011, 5:15 PM
This story made the rounds about a year and a half ago. And yes "Special" agent Crenshaw is special, like short bus special. The airsoft guns were eventually returned.

Yes, and I bet he's still employed, we're still paying his salary and we will be paying for this idiot's fat pension.

Gotta love it..

How can a grown man be that ignorant?

Uxi
12-23-2011, 5:44 PM
Yes, and I bet he's still employed, we're still paying his salary and we will be paying for this idiot's fat pension.


THAT is the real kick in the nads, isn't it? Then think about all the dour bureaucrats in DMV, DOJ, etc all the way up to Kamala and Moonbeam. :oji:

LTP90
12-23-2011, 6:02 PM
So where can I buy an airsoft "upper" since according to the ATF I should be able to just slap it on my real AR and make it into Airsoft and slap my real upper onto that lower and make it into a machine gun.

I have seen/held/shot some of the airsoft guns that look very real(cousin is way into it). yes it looked very real, but I didn't see anyway you could make it into an actual firearm without some serious modification. Which is basically the same as buying an 80% or turning some steel pipe I have out back into a gun.

CSACANNONEER
12-23-2011, 6:15 PM
So where can I buy an airsoft "upper" since according to the ATF I should be able to just slap it on my real AR and make it into Airsoft and slap my real upper onto that lower and make it into a machine gun.

I have seen/held/shot some of the airsoft guns that look very real(cousin is way into it). yes it looked very real, but I didn't see anyway you could make it into an actual firearm without some serious modification. Which is basically the same as buying an 80% or turning some steel pipe I have out back into a gun.

Uh, did you read my previous post? If you did, you would know that, at least some, classic air soft uppers will attach dirrectly to a normal lower. All you would need to do is drill a few new holes and run some airline through your lower to make it function with the upper. When I saw how easy it would be to convert the airsoft one and the fact that it was already milled for an auto sear, I declined to buy it. The whole thing scared me back in '01. Obviously, I was not just imagining things since, ATF has finally realized that it can happen.

LTP90
12-23-2011, 6:39 PM
I haven't seen(my self personally) any recent ones that even had the ability to separate into an upper/lower. They were high end ones too, they looked very realistic, but I saw no way to even start to make them a firearm without taking a grinder to them. Which is why I said in that case you are actually manufacturing a firearm, it just happens that the metal is already in similar shapes to what you need.

BUT now I am looking online and I am seeing what they are talking about
http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/ReviewDetail?reviewID=141
But you would still have to remove the parts and install actual AR internals and such.

CSACANNONEER
12-23-2011, 6:55 PM
I haven't seen(my self personally) any recent ones that even had the ability to separate into an upper/lower. They were high end ones too, they looked very realistic, but I saw no way to even start to make them a firearm without taking a grinder to them. Which is why I said in that case you are actually manufacturing a firearm, it just happens that the metal is already in similar shapes to what you need.

BUT now I am looking online and I am seeing what they are talking about
http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/ReviewDetail?reviewID=141
But you would still have to remove the parts and install actual AR internals and such.

A stripped lower is a legal firearm. A stripped M16 lower is legally machinegun. The lack of a fcg, any other internal parts or even an upper does not have any bearing on those facts.

jonc
12-23-2011, 7:01 PM
Omg:facepalm:

Beatone
12-23-2011, 7:17 PM
Special agent? :facepalm: Check him out trying to put the mag in backwards at 1:17.

VulpesVafrae
12-23-2011, 8:21 PM
I didn't read the whole thread.

The fail is HERE with some of you, not the ATF.

These specific plastic toy M4s are so close to the real lower, there is nearly no difference between them. You can buy this Airsoft, strip it down, do some dremel work, install an LPK and slap on a REAL upper and you have an AR15. That is what the BATFE is talking about.
You're gonna buy a AR receiver made out of Taiwanese aluminum.. barely satisfying airsoft tolerances.. then take it to your drill press/lathe/CNC machine in your garage and shadily drill and tap gas ports/bolt receivers, then buy basically a whole M4 and THEN subject this POS to AR conditions? JUST CHECKING :facepalm:

I'm pretty sure theres a reason why the epic debate of what an M14 is, continues. My definition is that it has a DROPPED FORGED RECEIVER FOR BADDASS 'M'[ALICE] CONDITIONS.

I'm pretty sure if you had that much metal working gear in your garage you'd be CNCing your own receivers, WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE DO. not sketchly importing and converting them from Taiwan.

Yute
12-24-2011, 5:08 AM
BATF Letter:

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/14882

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 5:37 AM
You're gonna buy a AR receiver made out of Taiwanese aluminum.. barely satisfying airsoft tolerances.. then take it to your drill press/lathe/CNC machine in your garage and shadily drill and tap gas ports/bolt receivers, then buy basically a whole M4 and THEN subject this POS to AR conditions? JUST CHECKING :facepalm:

I'm pretty sure theres a reason why the epic debate of what an M14 is, continues. My definition is that it has a DROPPED FORGED RECEIVER FOR BADDASS 'M'[ALICE] CONDITIONS.

I'm pretty sure if you had that much metal working gear in your garage you'd be CNCing your own receivers, WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE DO. not sketchly importing and converting them from Taiwan.

If you think the quality of your firearm has ANY relevance in its classification of a firearm, you need to educate yourself on firearm laws.

The BATFE grabbed these lowers the same as they would a shipment of 81% lowers made from 7076T6. They are too close to being a firearm.

As one poster said, they looked them over, decided they were more like 80% so they gave them back.

I imagine its a hard call deciding on how much work it will take to "make" a firearm. They took the shipment, checked them out, made one into a real firearm and then gave that work a % based on skill.

Samtech79
12-24-2011, 6:26 AM
Maybe I can convert my coffee maker into a time machine.

No no... You need a hot tub for that. Coffee makers are only good for making nukes... Just add a little hydraulic oil.

VulpesVafrae
12-24-2011, 6:55 AM
My knowledge of the Laws of Firearms states if you put rated s*** into UNrated s***, s*** is going to go probably to s***.

When you say one poster "made one into a real firearm" did they just cycle it to check the action, or did they actually go out and shoot it? People already have enough trouble-shooting (pun) their regular ARs.

I still believe that the people that could convert these airsofts into possible a real firearm, are probably already making the guns themselves from scratch, not bothering with airsoft bologna, especially since the ATF is all hot over the stuff.

g17owner
12-24-2011, 7:20 AM
No modern AEG can be converted into a working 'military grade' weapon. The materials used to construct the body and lower it ARE NOT strong enough. Taiwanese ones are made of pot metal. The dimensions are off. I checked them. The interior of the lower is not correctly machined either. The body of a AEG gear box fits inside of the lower. Even if it was a GBB rifle it would take extensive work and machining to even get a LPK to fit and even then the material (in GBB case aluminum) isn't hardened or weapons grade). I don't care what "firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio" says. It cannot be done without extensive machining and adding material. For all of those whao are talking out of your *****, go to any airsoft store, but a taiwanese AEG or GBB and disassemble it. Take your OLL and compare. The stock might fit, maybe even the handgrip but the upper? Nope. CANNOT BE DONE !

ptoguy2002
12-24-2011, 7:34 AM
BATF Letter:

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/14882

I am not too familiar with airsoft stuff, but from that letter, it sounds like it was pretty easy to convert....

ptoguy2002
12-24-2011, 7:40 AM
No modern AEG can be converted into a working 'military grade' weapon. The materials used to construct the body and lower it ARE NOT strong enough. Taiwanese ones are made of pot metal. The dimensions are off. I checked them. The interior of the lower is not correctly machined either. The body of a AEG gear box fits inside of the lower. Even if it was a GBB rifle it would take extensive work and machining to even get a LPK to fit and even then the material (in GBB case aluminum) isn't hardened or weapons grade). I don't care what "firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio" says. It cannot be done without extensive machining and adding material. For all of those whao are talking out of your *****, go to any airsoft store, but a taiwanese AEG or GBB and disassemble it. Take your OLL and compare. The stock might fit, maybe even the handgrip but the upper? Nope. CANNOT BE DONE !

I'm not too familiar with airsoft stuff, but from that ATF letter posted above, it sounds like it was pretty easy. "Military grade" has nothing to do with it. If it can be easily converted, all it has to do is fire 1 round and it is a firearm. The AR lower has pretty low loading, just some torque on the back where the buffer tube goes in. If real firearm mfgs can make them out of plastic, then a pot metal (or cheap aluminum in the GBB), it is strong enough. It may not last very long, but that isn't part of the airsoft-real firearm argument. The upper, lower, etc doesn't play into it. Only the lower, as that is THE firearm. **And again, that is assuming that the ATF letter is no BS.

njineermike
12-24-2011, 7:49 AM
Its not just any "plastic". Its a high density polymer like delryn with a binder embedded in the ploymer to enhance the tensile strength. The plastic used in the airsofts is more like the plastic used to manufacture milk cartons. ABS or HDPE would have to be several times thicker than the normal dimensions to handle more than a single shot, and by that point, most of the OTHER parts wouldn't fit. The metals used are also inferior, as was pointed out previoisly. If I made a lower to tolerance out of pancakes, it may fit dimensionally, but it is NOT A FIREARM. It's pancakes.

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 7:58 AM
I fixed airsoft back in 2005, I just started fixing them again recently and I can say there is no way you can convert them unless doing extreme work on them. Like someone else said, if a pipe bomb can be made with home depot stuff, those parts and home depot should be charged for supplying deadly weapon.

Some people over think things too much.

chead
12-24-2011, 9:12 AM
If I made a lower to tolerance out of pancakes, it may fit dimensionally, but it is NOT A FIREARM. It's pancakes.

Let's not test this theory.

bighead
12-24-2011, 10:06 AM
Oh wait a second, I understand now.How dense of me.It can be converted to a machine gun.All you need is a new upper and a new lower.My bad.

CSACANNONEER
12-24-2011, 10:16 AM
You're gonna buy a AR receiver made out of Taiwanese aluminum.. barely satisfying airsoft tolerances.. then take it to your drill press/lathe/CNC machine in your garage and shadily drill and tap gas ports/bolt receivers, then buy basically a whole M4 and THEN subject this POS to AR conditions? JUST CHECKING :facepalm:

I'm pretty sure theres a reason why the epic debate of what an M14 is, continues. My definition is that it has a DROPPED FORGED RECEIVER FOR BADDASS 'M'[ALICE] CONDITIONS.

I'm pretty sure if you had that much metal working gear in your garage you'd be CNCing your own receivers, WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE DO. not sketchly importing and converting them from Taiwan.

Quality is not legally important at all. All it needs to do is be capable of firing ONE round.

My knowledge of the Laws of Firearms states if you put rated s*** into UNrated s***, s*** is going to go probably to s***.

When you say one poster "made one into a real firearm" did they just cycle it to check the action, or did they actually go out and shoot it? People already have enough trouble-shooting (pun) their regular ARs.

I still believe that the people that could convert these airsofts into possible a real firearm, are probably already making the guns themselves from scratch, not bothering with airsoft bologna, especially since the ATF is all hot over the stuff.

Legally speaking, that does not make any difference at all but, I agree.

No modern AEG can be converted into a working 'military grade' weapon. The materials used to construct the body and lower it ARE NOT strong enough. Taiwanese ones are made of pot metal. The dimensions are off. I checked them. The interior of the lower is not correctly machined either. The body of a AEG gear box fits inside of the lower. Even if it was a GBB rifle it would take extensive work and machining to even get a LPK to fit and even then the material (in GBB case aluminum) isn't hardened or weapons grade). I don't care what "firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio" says. It cannot be done without extensive machining and adding material. For all of those whao are talking out of your *****, go to any airsoft store, but a taiwanese AEG or GBB and disassemble it. Take your OLL and compare. The stock might fit, maybe even the handgrip but the upper? Nope. CANNOT BE DONE !

Its not just any "plastic". Its a high density polymer like delryn with a binder embedded in the ploymer to enhance the tensile strength. The plastic used in the airsofts is more like the plastic used to manufacture milk cartons. ABS or HDPE would have to be several times thicker than the normal dimensions to handle more than a single shot, and by that point, most of the OTHER parts wouldn't fit. The metals used are also inferior, as was pointed out previoisly. If I made a lower to tolerance out of pancakes, it may fit dimensionally, but it is NOT A FIREARM. It's pancakes.

First, "military grade" doesn't mean anything. Secondly, if a gun is able to fired, even once, it is definately a working firarm. That includes using materials like pot metal, polyurathanes, plastics, sheet metal, legos, glass, wood, paper mache, ice, frozen urine, pancakes, etc. If you can make a perfect pancake lower and freeze it or otherwise preserve it in some way to allow it to be capable of being assembled and firing a single round, your pancakes are legally a firearm from both a pratical and a legal sense. Now, pass me some more maple lube and bore butter.


I fixed airsoft back in 2005, I just started fixing them again recently and I can say there is no way you can convert them unless doing extreme work on them. Like someone else said, if a pipe bomb can be made with home depot stuff, those parts and home depot should be charged for supplying deadly weapon.

Some people over think things too much.

Uh, you're only talking about those guns you've seen. Do you have any idea what ATF does not allow to be imported? I'm willing to bet that you've never encountered an old classic air soft gun in your life. Again, in '02, I saw an airsoft lower that we compared to one of my lowers, the ONLY differences were the FCG hole placement. It even came with the rear milled out for a, auto sear and the oem trigger was a standard M16 FA trigger.

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 11:17 AM
Okay, so how many converted airsoft to real firearm have you seen?

InGrAM
12-24-2011, 2:12 PM
Okay, so how many converted airsoft to real firearm have you seen?

this ^

CSACANNONEER
12-24-2011, 2:40 PM
Okay, so how many converted airsoft to real firearm have you seen?

None because, I try not to put myself where I would see one. But, that doesn't mean that I, or many others I know, could not convert ones like I've seen in a matter of less than an hour with nothing more than a template and a drillpress. Now, if you want to talk about newer, electic ones, I do have an early Armalite (pre SN) that would take a dremel along with a template and drill press to modify into a milspec receiver.

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 3:19 PM
Okay, so how many converted airsoft to real firearm have you seen?

this ^

Two. Both on Youtube as How-to vids that have since been taken down,

Other Youtubes seen HERE...
1) A kid who is so good with paper mache, he made a WORKING 1911 with silencer.
2) A carpenter who made a working AK47 out of pine.
3) A guy who designed an AR15 out of flat pieces of sheet metal. I still have the plans for those, and you can find his working Aluminum diagrams Here (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11989) or the PDF HERE (http://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/43/5d/57/f7/95/AR-15_Scratch-Built_Receiver_Blueprint.pdf) Now you can take these and carve them out of wood or KyDex if you want.

Make no mistake, if you attempt to manufacture & SELL any of these as a business, you will be required to hold an FFL...even if you make them from pancakes.

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 3:20 PM
Yeah but anyone can still make a explosive with charcoal, potassium sulfur and salt peter....those are all grocery store items.....should ATF look into that too? What's the difference between that and buying a milling machine, making a template and then turn a airsoft into a firearm?

Ain't it the same? I don't see the difference....

Mossy Man
12-24-2011, 3:26 PM
what i truly believe is that ATF made a mistake. That mistake may not even have been that airsoft toys can be converted to real firearms.

The mistake is that to this day I have never heard of anyone machining an airsoft toy into a real firearm.

But now, thanks to the ATF, everyone on the internet knows that you can with little modification buy an airsoft toy and convert it to a real weapon with modification.

The real blunder was making something that was never a real problem into something that now might become a problem.

I'll bet in the next few years we'll hear of someone trying this and either killing themselves or losing a limb.

CSACANNONEER
12-24-2011, 3:26 PM
Yeah but anyone can still make a explosive with charcoal, potassium sulfur and salt peter....those are all grocery store items.....should ATF look into that too? What's the difference between that and buying a milling machine, making a template and then turn a airsoft into a firearm?

Ain't it the same? I don't see the difference....

The difference is the same as selling 80% receivers vs. 81% receivers. The 80%s are just paperweights. If enough work is done on an airsoft receiver to make it more than 80% done, it is considered a legal firearm. That is exactly where the line is drawn.

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 3:32 PM
Yeah but anyone can still make a explosive with charcoal, potassium sulfur and salt peter....those are all grocery store items.....should ATF look into that too? What's the difference between that and buying a milling machine, making a template and then turn a airsoft into a firearm?

Ain't it the same? I don't see the difference....


I can buy and make a firearm legally.
I can not sell (as a business) those firearms without a License.
I can sell the diagrams and materials people can use to make firearms, as long as a certain amount of work is still required to finish it.
I can not sell a "thing" that all you need to do is poke it with a hot stick and then it becomes an item capable to be used as a firearm.
I can buy fake firearms. I can sell fake firearms (regulated).
I can buy a 1/2" diameter, 12" long galvanized pipe, a 2 foot long 2x4, a couple fitting and a roofing nail all legally from Home Depot.
I can not take those items and assemble a working firearm. (at least not in California. Under our law and many other states possibly Federal law too that would be a "zip gun".)

The failure here is many of the people here do not understand the law. They think they do, but as seen here...they do not.

cpl_dan
12-24-2011, 3:34 PM
No modern AEG can be converted into a working 'military grade' weapon. The materials used to construct the body and lower it ARE NOT strong enough. Taiwanese ones are made of pot metal. The dimensions are off. I checked them. The interior of the lower is not correctly machined either. The body of a AEG gear box fits inside of the lower. Even if it was a GBB rifle it would take extensive work and machining to even get a LPK to fit and even then the material (in GBB case aluminum) isn't hardened or weapons grade). I don't care what "firearms manufacturer Leo Gonnuscio" says. It cannot be done without extensive machining and adding material. For all of those whao are talking out of your *****, go to any airsoft store, but a taiwanese AEG or GBB and disassemble it. Take your OLL and compare. The stock might fit, maybe even the handgrip but the upper? Nope. CANNOT BE DONE !
+++1


i had an m4 airsoft rifle and the lower CANNOT be modded to fire any real ammo for several reasons main reason the lower is smaller than a regular ar15 lower , please do research and do not pass fud

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 3:38 PM
+++1


i had an m4 airsoft rifle and the lower CANNOT be modded to fire any real ammo for several reasons main reason the lower is smaller than a regular ar15 lower , please do research and do not pass fud

I am glad every airsoft is 100% like yours...:facepalm:

Distro
12-24-2011, 4:02 PM
+++1


i had an m4 airsoft rifle and the lower CANNOT be modded to fire any real ammo for several reasons main reason the lower is smaller than a regular ar15 lower , please do research and do not pass fud

There is NO weapon that can fire anything larger than a .22, I use to own a rifle and I tried putting a .308 and the barrel was smaller than a .308.

Scott Connors
12-24-2011, 4:19 PM
Why go for a Mac-11? Mine is a fully-automatic mini pizza launcher. Yummy and DEADLY.*

*Note to the BATFE: This is intended purely as humor. My microwave will only launch one mini pizza per trigger pull. All my mini pizzas are under 30mm and do not constitute a destructive device.

They do if they have double anchovies. :eek:

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 4:21 PM
There is NO weapon that can fire anything larger than a .22, I use to own a rifle and I tried putting a .308 and the barrel was smaller than a .308.


bullseye...:D

4literranger485
12-24-2011, 4:24 PM
Its not just any "plastic". Its a high density polymer like delryn with a binder embedded in the ploymer to enhance the tensile strength. The plastic used in the airsofts is more like the plastic used to manufacture milk cartons. ABS or HDPE would have to be several times thicker than the normal dimensions to handle more than a single shot, and by that point, most of the OTHER parts wouldn't fit. The metals used are also inferior, as was pointed out previoisly. If I made a lower to tolerance out of pancakes, it may fit dimensionally, but it is NOT A FIREARM. It's pancakes.

if you could make machine guns out of pancakes, i'd head right over to IHOP for all-you-can-eat pancake day and make my own fricken' arsenal!!

and eat some pancakes too! :D

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 4:29 PM
I think the main issue had been mixed up between two thoughts.

What I see is one side is saying airsoft can't be made into a firearm easily. The other is saying it can and is illegal. Both is correct. I don't think anyone is saying an airsoft can't be made into a firearm, they can, just not easily. Easy meaning taking out the internals of a aeg and installing fcg without modification to the aeg*.

Anything can be made, its just a matter of it being legal or not. In this case, the ATF is assuming that an airsoft can be turned into a machine gun....which is true, but we can turn our AR into fully auto if we put a lighting link in which without a license is illegal...also extremely easy to do.

Look at it this way: A beer being sold at a store isnt illegal, buying it with a age of 21+ is not illegal, drinking it is not illegal, getting drunk isnt illegal but when you start to drive while drunk its illegal. Same with airsoft guns, its fine to shoot bb's, its fine to buy it, but its absolutely illegal when converted toa real firearm. Would any lawabiding citizen convert one? Maybe not, would criminals convert it? Maybe? The problem with the ATF issue in this video is they jumped on the "victim" before they even did anything illegal, if any. Kind of like on a stake out waiting for the guy to admit they killed someone then it becomes evidence that they did it. In this case, the airsoft shop just ordered the aeg to sell as usual but some dumb nut ATF agent had a cork in their *** too long and trigger happy to use their "power" and did so at the wrong time and wrong thing.

*term of "easy" was defined in a broad term. Some concider using a milling machine is easy, some concider a chizzle and hammer is easy and some cant even tell the difference between a flat or a philip screw driver.

CSACANNONEER
12-24-2011, 4:35 PM
+++1


i had an m4 airsoft rifle and the lower CANNOT be modded to fire any real ammo for several reasons main reason the lower is smaller than a regular ar15 lower , please do research and do not pass fud

My wife had a tube of lipstick that was made out of plastic, therefore all the stories you here about lipstick tubes being remanufactured into ammo cartidges during WWII have to be false. Just because YOUR toy was not made in the same dimmensions as a milspec lower, it doesn't mean all of them are. Please, stop spreading FUD and realize that your limited experience does not make you an expert on all airsoft gus ever imported into the US. Besides, ATF has rules that many of the airsoft cans that used to be imported are working surpressors and since, the NFA act defines a surpressor as a firearm, there are airsoft toys in the US that are also considered "firearms".

pyro3k2
12-24-2011, 4:57 PM
My wife had a tube of lipstick that was made out of plastic, therefore all the stories you here about lipstick tubes being remanufactured into ammo cartidges during WWII have to be false. Just because YOUR toy was not made in the same dimmensions as a milspec lower, it doesn't mean all of them are. Please, stop spreading FUD and realize that your limited experience does not make you an expert on all airsoft gus ever imported into the US. Besides, ATF has rules that many of the airsoft cans that used to be imported are working surpressors and since, the NFA act defines a surpressor as a firearm, there are airsoft toys in the US that are also considered "firearms".

Upon further review of the matter, this is indeed correct. The real to life airsoft "training" rifles are made extremely close to actual ar-15 specification. This includes being made out of metal instead of plastic and also being of the correct dimmensions. With that being said these specific training tools are very expensive and the average cost of them are around 1500 dollars. I'm not claiming to be an expert of the black market but I'm pretty sure a criminal can buy a REAL rifle for less than that. I do believe now that an extremely specific kind of airsoft toys can be converted but realistically it will never happen unless some one is simply trying to prove a point. Here is a link to one of those training rifles. http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/AEG_AEP_Systema_PTW_Professional_Training_Weapons_ Systema_PTW_Professional_Training_Weapon_M4A1_SUPE R_MAX_Collapsible_Stock_Version_font_color_yellow_ Free_Shipping_font.htm
Also for those people out there that think they can tell an airsoft rifle from a real one please view this link and read it carefully. http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Hurt_Locker,_The

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 5:07 PM
paper 1911 fires home made ammo with real primer

lkIjGGM8G5s&feature=fvwrel

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 5:15 PM
I've seen him make those paper guns for sometime now, but he isn't making anythin illegal. Still within the spec of a already made firearm, in this case a 1911. He made it from 0%, which should be more legal then a 80% right? ;)

lil_jackal
12-24-2011, 5:36 PM
paper 1911 fires home made ammo with real primer

lkIjGGM8G5s&feature=fvwrel

jesus christ thats impressive theres a video of him making a paper ak damn thats insane ! why buy a 400 $ gun when you could make one for about 10 $ i think he
surpasses the AK team on the forums :hide:

dieselpower
12-24-2011, 5:58 PM
I've seen him make those paper guns for sometime now, but he isn't making anythin illegal. Still within the spec of a already made firearm, in this case a 1911. He made it from 0%, which should be more legal then a 80% right? ;)

what if he made 1000 and started selling them for profit...

what if his paper 1911 could house a real barrel and fire 1 real 45cal round....

mif_slim
12-24-2011, 6:01 PM
^ you must of missed my post on the bottom of the 2nd page.

Uxi
12-24-2011, 6:17 PM
BATF Letter:

http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/14882

gah, I am the only one groaning when I read "M16 machinegun?" And these are the nimrods responsible for policing this?

bighead
12-24-2011, 7:13 PM
Galileo would approve of this "loose" thread.

It's Christmas eve, I think ill convert my Playstation into a Hadron collider.

lil_jackal
12-24-2011, 9:06 PM
i wonder if i can convert a mechanical pencil to fire .50 BMG , im sorry guys but if all goes well , you can see a 2012 ban on them , just the word mechanical will drive the anti gun snobs go crazy !

jimmy_stikx
12-25-2011, 3:03 AM
I've seen the airsoft glock frames covert to real firearms.
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=26107;hl=padkychas

g17owner
12-25-2011, 6:32 AM
My wife had a tube of lipstick that was made out of plastic, therefore all the stories you here about lipstick tubes being remanufactured into ammo cartidges during WWII have to be false. Just because YOUR toy was not made in the same dimmensions as a milspec lower, it doesn't mean all of them are. Please, stop spreading FUD and realize that your limited experience does not make you an expert on all airsoft gus ever imported into the US. Besides, ATF has rules that many of the airsoft cans that used to be imported are working surpressors and since, the NFA act defines a surpressor as a firearm, there are airsoft toys in the US that are also considered "firearms".

You are mistaken as to how the airsoft industry works. One or maybe two companies are an innovator then the others (usually china or hong kong or taiwan) then copies the innovating companies product to the 'T' selling for much less then the original companies. Most if not all parts of a GBB or AEG airsoft will interchange between these one or two 'types' that are produced. Most of the different 'brands' are repackaged by the importer with or without applicable trademarks that they paid for to be on the gun. If the manufacturer is based out of Japan for example then dimensionally the parts won't be close enough to use on a real firearm. Now I read the letter and they had to machine both pin holes, remove the original internals and replace the FGC with real weapon parts then it would fire. The systema uses an entirely different system and although very expensive and difficult to find parts for, it dimensionally (buffer tube, hand guards, sights etc) is almost a spec match and will drop on a real weapon.

However, my point is the gun didn't come that way. THEY had to make it that way. The gun as it is shipped to your house or bought from a retailer won't fire a round out of any upper. So kudos to the ATF to have someone there with enough knowledge of firearms (you would hope) to make a toy into a gun. With enough tools, time, money and thought you can 'convert' anything away from its original purpose and make it suit your agenda. That is what the ATF has done here. How many have you seen converted? Not many as most don't posses the time, tools or knowhow to accomplish it because it is not as simply done as the ATF would like everyone to believe. I think this was media stunt to garner publicity away from the other things going on with the ATF at that time.

GM4spd
12-25-2011, 6:35 AM
And yes "Special" agent Crenshaw is special, like short bus special.

:rofl:

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2011, 10:04 AM
You are mistaken as to how the airsoft industry works. One or maybe two companies are an innovator then the others (usually china or hong kong or taiwan) then copies the innovating companies product to the 'T' selling for much less then the original companies. Most if not all parts of a GBB or AEG airsoft will interchange between these one or two 'types' that are produced. Most of the different 'brands' are repackaged by the importer with or without applicable trademarks that they paid for to be on the gun. If the manufacturer is based out of Japan for example then dimensionally the parts won't be close enough to use on a real firearm. Now I read the letter and they had to machine both pin holes, remove the original internals and replace the FGC with real weapon parts then it would fire. The systema uses an entirely different system and although very expensive and difficult to find parts for, it dimensionally (buffer tube, hand guards, sights etc) is almost a spec match and will drop on a real weapon.

However, my point is the gun didn't come that way. THEY had to make it that way. The gun as it is shipped to your house or bought from a retailer won't fire a round out of any upper. So kudos to the ATF to have someone there with enough knowledge of firearms (you would hope) to make a toy into a gun. With enough tools, time, money and thought you can 'convert' anything away from its original purpose and make it suit your agenda. That is what the ATF has done here. How many have you seen converted? Not many as most don't posses the time, tools or knowhow to accomplish it because it is not as simply done as the ATF would like everyone to believe. I think this was media stunt to garner publicity away from the other things going on with the ATF at that time.

Here's my point, the simple facts are that an airsoft receiver only needs to be 81% of a completed reciever in order to be classified as a firearm. It does not make a difference if it will only be able to fire one round when completed or if it is easier or cheaper to buy an 80% lower or a blackmarket gun. The law is the law and you guys don't seem to get the fact that some of these foreign made airsoft guns are too close to the real thing to be imported.

I do know a little about the airsoft industry. Obviously, I know more about the history of the industry than you appear to. MOST of the early guns (80's and early 90's) being imported into the US from JAPAN, were 100% dimensionally correct and made from the same materials as the real receivers were. These "classic airsoft" guns required exterior compressed air sources and were not readily able to be taken into the field. But, the fact remains that they were 100% dimensionally correct and only a few holes needed to be drilled to use standard milspec FCGs.

Again, it does not make a difference if it is easier or cheaper to go another route. If a "toy" gun's receiver is 81% of a completed firearm, it is a firearm. Whether you like it or not, that is the law in this country and has been for longer than airsoft guns have been around.

mif_slim
12-25-2011, 10:47 AM
I think we're running in circles here....

bighead
12-25-2011, 11:48 AM
There is so much theoretical nonsense I'm not sure a circle is possible.The agent said the plastic airsoft toys could be easily converted into machine guns.Now, without applying speculation, cross referencing, hypothetical assuming, it is absolutely im****ingpossible to do what the agent said.

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2011, 11:51 AM
There is so much theoretical nonsense I'm not sure a circle is possible.The agent said the plastic airsoft toys could be easily converted into machine guns.Now, without applying speculation, cross referencing, hypothetical assuming, it is absolutely im****ingpossible to do what the agent said.

Why is it impossible? Plastic is not that hard to machine.

mif_slim
12-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Again, its not about possible or impossible, its about breaking the law or not.

The question here is are these airsoft already firearms or not? If not then no one broke the law, if so then someone's getting jail time.

g17owner
12-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Here's my point, the simple facts are that an airsoft receiver only needs to be 81% of a completed reciever in order to be classified as a firearm. It does not make a difference if it will only be able to fire one round when completed or if it is easier or cheaper to buy an 80% lower or a blackmarket gun. The law is the law and you guys don't seem to get the fact that some of these foreign made airsoft guns are too close to the real thing to be imported.

I do know a little about the airsoft industry. Obviously, I know more about the history of the industry than you appear to. MOST of the early guns (80's and early 90's) being imported into the US from JAPAN, were 100% dimensionally correct and made from the same materials as the real receivers were. These "classic airsoft" guns required exterior compressed air sources and were not readily able to be taken into the field. But, the fact remains that they were 100% dimensionally correct and only a few holes needed to be drilled to use standard milspec FCGs.

Again, it does not make a difference if it is easier or cheaper to go another route. If a "toy" gun's receiver is 81% of a completed firearm, it is a firearm. Whether you like it or not, that is the law in this country and has been for longer than airsoft guns have been around.


Nobody is talking about gun that were made almost 30 years ago considered 'classics' by most collectors. Did the ATF confiscate those? No. What they did confiscate was taiwanese clones to the western arms GBB rifle. Now by your logic you are saying that the ATF has classified these particular models are being 81% or better. Which in all the research I have found up to this point is not true. What they did do if i read correctly is take a TOY and MAKE it able to fire a round. So unless they are willing to come out and state that the lower on these GBB come pre-made at 81% or better then my point still holds true. ATF manufactured the weapon not the maker of the toy. Now if you can find documentation that states from the ATF what the percentage the toy comes from the manufacturer is and if its greater then 80% then I'll stand corrected. As it stands now this was just a successful experiment the ATF conducted and follows it up with a vague classification and subsequent confiscation. It will probably have to go to court in the future as I can see this leading to other problems in the airsoft world.

bighead
12-25-2011, 12:43 PM
I'll bottom line this, the only thing valid about the agent's assumption is that certain parts of an airsoft rifle could possibly be used in a real rifle.It is dangerously ignorant to repeat that an airsoft rifle can easily be converted to a machine gun.

pyro3k2
12-25-2011, 4:43 PM
it is possible to convert an airsoft gun into a functional firearm, weither it survives the first cycle is a completely different issue. Simple fact is that the laws haven't caught up with the times and need an overhaul. The only thing realistically preventing anyone from committing a crime is the persons willingness to comply with the law. I'm not very concerned with other cal-gunners logic here because even both sides of the table here can 100% agree upon the ATF being pants on head retarded. What does concern me is the train of thought with the ATF. They could confiscate semi-auto's next because they can be easily converted into machine guns. I've been told it only takes 15minutes, a drill press and the correct parts to make an ar-15 shoot fast.

tonelar
12-25-2011, 4:55 PM
Uh, did you read my previous post? If you did, you would know that, at least some, classic air soft uppers will attach dirrectly to a normal lower. All you would need to do is drill a few new holes and run some airline through your lower to make it function with the upper. When I saw how easy it would be to convert the airsoft one and the fact that it was already milled for an auto sear, I declined to buy it. The whole thing scared me back in '01. Obviously, I was not just imagining things since, ATF has finally realized that it can happen.

People are just responding to the original post

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/exclusive-toy-gun-sold-easily-turned-real-thing/

njineermike
12-25-2011, 5:13 PM
I wonder how many people that had no clue this was even possible (like me) that are now willing to try it (not me) that wouldn't have been the wiser had the brain trust at the ATF not advertised the fact.



Congratulations ATF. Thank you for creating a problem where one did not previously exist. Again.

IntoForever
12-25-2011, 6:27 PM
Congratulations ATF. Thank you for creating a problem where one did not previously exist. Again.

Govt. solution to everything. If it isn't broke, fix it until it is.

Back to those pancake lowers, what if we used bacon as a binder? :D

njineermike
12-25-2011, 6:49 PM
Govt. solution to everything. If it isn't broke, fix it until it is.

Back to those pancake lowers, what if we used bacon as a binder? :D

Mmmmm. Bacon and pancake lowers. In a SHTF situation, it's the only gun that doubles as breakfast.

CSACANNONEER
12-25-2011, 7:17 PM
Nobody is talking about gun that were made almost 30 years ago considered 'classics' by most collectors.

Well, if you go back through this thread you will see several different posters who made blanket statements about how NO airsoft gun could be converted. So, yes, at least some people have included these guns in their statements.

Back to those pancake lowers, what if we used bacon as a binder? :D

Great idea! That way it will be permanently lubed and if you ever loose it, any dog will be able to lead you right to it. Actually, the challenge of a pancake lower is interesting enough that I'm trying to figure out just how to do it. If we used bannana pancakes as a base, could we make a lower that accepted bannana clips too?

njineermike
12-25-2011, 7:28 PM
We better be careful or there will be a federal Pancake Control Act to stop the spread of destruction from unchecked syrup distribution.

pyro3k2
12-25-2011, 7:29 PM
Well, if you go back through this thread you will see several different posters who made blanket statements about how NO airsoft gun could be converted. So, yes, at least some people have included these guns in their statements.



Great idea! That way it will be permanently lubed and if you ever loose it, any dog will be able to lead you right to it. Actually, the challenge of a pancake lower is interesting enough that I'm trying to figure out just how to do it. If we used bannana pancakes as a base, could we make a lower that accepted bannana clips too?

LOL I see what you did there.

peter95
12-25-2011, 7:51 PM
cant believe it......

IntoForever
12-25-2011, 8:08 PM
Based on all the fail in the media, I seriously think the ATF gives preferential hiring points to those who fail the IQ test. Reminds me of a recent Beavis and Butt-head episode where it took them 4 hours to put their name down, and they still misspelled it.

Great idea! That way it will be permanently lubed and if you ever loose it, any dog will be able to lead you right to it. Actually, the challenge of a pancake lower is interesting enough that I'm trying to figure out just how to do it. If we used bannana pancakes as a base, could we make a lower that accepted bannana clips too?
:rofl:

defcon
01-23-2012, 11:56 PM
What if the airsoft internals have been completely gutted out and you drop in a manufactured semi auto, 10 round magazine, serialized receiver, barrel, trigger assembly, etc into an empty manufactured airsoft shell? Would the ATF and CA DOJ call this illegal? Its like a 10/22 ruger using an AR15 looking aftermarket stock. It no longer looks like a 10/22 by appearance. Or a mini M14 using a sage EBR stock. Its more evil looking. Are there any specifc laws from the ATF and CA DOJ in regards to aftermarket dress up kits like tapco, promag, sage, etc.

Grumpyoldretiredcop
01-24-2012, 12:21 AM
What if the airsoft internals have been completely gutted out and you drop in a manufactured semi auto, 10 round magazine, serialized receiver, barrel, trigger assembly, etc into an empty manufactured airsoft shell? Would the ATF and CA DOJ call this illegal? Its like a 10/22 ruger using an AR15 looking aftermarket stock. It no longer looks like a 10/22 by appearance. Or a mini M14 using a sage EBR stock. Its more evil looking. Are there any specifc laws from the ATF and CA DOJ in regards to aftermarket dress up kits like tapco, promag, sage, etc.

No. First, laws don't come from ATFE or DOJ (except when one agency or the other tries "underground legislation", which is treating a decision made by the agency as law in the absence of statutory authority, which these days tends to earn them a visit by Mr. Gura, et. al and getting their appendage slapped into the dirt). Second, since there are no statutes precluding placing a semi-automatic firearm inside a firearm-shaped shell (please note the italics, the distinctions are important), there would be no basis for either agency to take any action.

What's being discussed in this thread regards the potential to modify a particular airsoft receiver itself to become a prohibited weapon (namely, a firearm receiver capable of accepting parts which, when assembled, complete a fully automatic firearm); a concept quite different and distinct from your hypothetical question.

RRichie09
01-24-2012, 12:57 AM
umm... the toy guns were returned. They obviously weren't illegal or considered 81% receivers.

elrey7698
01-24-2012, 1:16 AM
In this crap state how long till We have to wait 10 days for an airsoft gun?

gh429
01-24-2012, 1:30 AM
Airsoft guns can be converted into real guns. This has been done in many asian countries for years. As previously mentioned the assemblies are often times 100% to spec. Using a billet block some criminals are machining the barrel and converting airsoft guns into real guns. Now imagine shooting out of a billet barrel - I would not be within 30 feet of that weapon discharging, but I've personally examined an airsoft conversion a few years back. A friend's acquaintance was killed by an airsoft modified 9mm several years ago.