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dw149a
12-08-2011, 4:33 PM
Hey all, I'm in the market for my first AR. Looking to be educated on what is worthwhile for the sub $1000 range. Thanks in advance!

GMG
12-08-2011, 4:57 PM
Myself, son and grandson each have one no problems after several years use.

1forall
12-08-2011, 5:01 PM
No






...J/K, I haven't heard anything bad about them.

Air
12-08-2011, 5:05 PM
I had a Delton Upper mated to a Superior Arms lower toward the beginning of the OLL craze and it functioned just fine. I have since traded that rifle to another calgunner, but I had no issues at all.

They certainly aren't the best, but I liked mine....

roushstage2
12-08-2011, 5:11 PM
Plug this into Google: site:calguns.net Is Del-Ton Quality Good

Jobin
12-08-2011, 5:13 PM
I built up an AR with a delton upper and have put 100 downrange no problems. Seems to be good quality. I am actually selling my AR for a very good price. PM me if interested.

evidens83
12-08-2011, 5:39 PM
My 1st. Functioned 100% absolutely flawless.

dieselpower
12-08-2011, 5:42 PM
never heard of them before... can you provide a link to their website and maybe a few links from people who have owned them? After I read about them for a week or so, then I can tell you what to buy. I can house and shoot it for you too... no charge.

C4iGrant
12-08-2011, 5:47 PM
Lower grade AR IMHO.


C4

Cyc Wid It
12-08-2011, 6:00 PM
Lower grade AR IMHO.


C4

^^^

:popcorn:

fine for plinking, but you can get much better for $1k

:rofl: we even got one of those "100 flawless rounds" posts

mraoshi
12-08-2011, 6:03 PM
I have a DTI (del ton) lower and it is fine. I believe the store I bought it from told me that they are made by Del Ton themselves

Noah3683
12-08-2011, 6:05 PM
I have a DTI (del ton) lower and it is fine. I believe the store I bought it from told me that they are made by Del Ton themselves

never believe a store.... Considering they get almost all their other parts from other sources I highly highly doubt they mill their own lowers

Lagduf
12-08-2011, 6:12 PM
It would be a fine range gun.

I have a 20" A2 HBAR from DTI and it's fine. I think I would have been better served buying something nicer, but for what it's worth my gun has never seen any problems, however, it's never been ran hard and its only ever been on a target range. It is what it is.

If you order from DTI the wait can be quite long to get your upper/kit.

With so many companies putting out ARs these days you should be able to find something of a higher quality in the price range you are looking at. Paying $50 to $100 more isn't really too hard to justify when you look at guns as investments or tools that will see much use and with proper maintenance might outlast you!

I suggest assembling your own lower and looking at an upper from BCM or some other AR manufacturer with a reputation for quality.

You are bound to hear many different suggestions.

Metal Fiend
12-08-2011, 6:19 PM
I dig my Del-ton:D
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=491475&highlight=assembling+my+first+ar

Does your budget include optics?

Arnelcheeze
12-08-2011, 7:44 PM
Plug this into Google: site:calguns.net Is Del-Ton Quality GoodLMAO, i had to try it. :beatdeadhorse5:

Mail Clerk
12-08-2011, 7:51 PM
Hey all, I'm in the market for my first AR. Looking to be educated on what is worthwhile for the sub $1000 range. Thanks in advance!

dw149a,

I don't have any Deltons in my battery but I have read and heard that their pretty decent AR-15 for your first rifle. Of course there always a hater out there that will say always buy the best. I have now two Model 1 Sales uppers and despite the opinion that their junk I say different. Not bad for the money and the finish is just as good as any other. The only mods I've done i use a hard-chrome bolt/carrier for easier cleaning.

For your first rifle I see no issue about having one in your battery and having fun shooting it. Remember any rifle in your hand is better than none:D

Mail Clerk

MrPlink
12-08-2011, 8:03 PM
I dont own one, but Ive observed people trashing them for years but never with anything concrete.

"Low grade, low tier, poor blah blah"

So its not a CHF chrome barrel with a 1:7 twist! Awww crap, there went my plans to submit my home assembled rifle for military trials!

smle-man
12-08-2011, 9:49 PM
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/smle-man/P7040012.jpg

Delton upper chrome lined 1/9 barrel, Stag lower. Works fine, looks great, shoots straight. What more do you want?

Functions fine with Wolf steel or better grade brass cased ball or soft point ammunition. Even the Ciener .22 kit works fine in it. 1k rounds through the rifle and still nothing has jammed, bent, broke, fallen off, buckled, bulged, unstaked, unscrewed, or failed.

LovingTheYear1911
12-08-2011, 10:14 PM
It will do everything you want it to do. You dont have to spend 1k+ for a upper, especially if youre shooting paper.

Get it, shoot it, enjoy it.

NorCalRedneck
12-08-2011, 11:18 PM
Love my Delton. I have probably 2k rounds though mine right now, mostly Tula. Never any problems even after 30 round mag dumps. Don't listen to the haters that have never owned one before but still choose to badmouth them.

DannyInSoCal
12-08-2011, 11:25 PM
As with most firearms -

If you have to ask -

It's probably more accurate than you are.....

h0use
12-08-2011, 11:39 PM
Never had a problem. Get them while there still cheap. I see them being just like bushmaster. In a few years the price will increase.

ejhc11
12-09-2011, 5:14 AM
I have a DTI heavy barrel upper, it shoots accurately but I got it used at a nice price from a Calgunner and needed a varmint upper whereas everyone was sold out. I would not buy DTI again since I had a bolt problem and my gas system was a little skewed (bought a new bolt and my gunsmith friend re-aligned everything)

I definitely would recommend something better especially for a $1000, you can buy a lot nicer/better rifles.

These are cheap and good, I think a few Calgunners are real happy with them
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757785_-1_757784_757784_image

Or for more features a Palmetto Armory rifle also around $599 but w/ 1:7 barrel twist, forward assist, dust cover
http://palmettostatearmory.com/9007.php

Maybe check out our Calgun Vendor or you local dealers for holiday specials
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=508783&highlight=S%26amp%3BW+Sport

dieselpower
12-09-2011, 6:32 AM
Lower grade AR IMHO.


C4

There is little difference between DTi and BCM. Those little difference dont matter to 99% of the people that use them. The "lower" grade BS was started by salesman who want to sell expensive stuff and others who get kickbacks from BCM. A DTi is cheaper due to inspections and return ratios. Thats it. All the "mil-spec" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. There is little truth to it, there is no science to it, there is no real world value to it.

BCM sends out between 1%-5% faulty products, as seen by the "my BCM is broken" threads. They keep this low by inspecting parts before shipping out. This doesn't mean 100% are good...only 95% are good. No QA is flawless. To BCM 1% - 5% is acceptable and they cover the cost to return and fix those products. DTi on the other hand is a web-based supplier. They keep cost low by NOT inspecting those SAME PARTS. They have a slightly higher return rate of 2%-8%. They deal in volume so replacing doesn't cost them as much...and they don't fight you as much as BCM from what others have told me when dealing with BCM on issues like short stroking and cosmetic blemishes.

90% of the time your DTi will be fine.
95% of the time your BCM will be fine.
Is the extra money for a BCM worth it? Thats for the buyer to decide.

Agent Tikki
12-09-2011, 7:01 AM
No.

Get a PSA cheaper and better. And their customer service gives a damn.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 7:24 AM
There is little difference between DTi and BCM. Those little difference dont matter to 99% of the people that use them. The "lower" grade BS was started by salesman who want to sell expensive stuff and others who get kickbacks from BCM. A DTi is cheaper due to inspections and return ratios. Thats it. All the "mil-spec" nonsense is just that. Nonsense. There is little truth to it, there is no science to it, there is no real world value to it.

Incorrect. Del-Ton cannot even meet the ENTRY LEVEL SPEC (TDP). If they are not following this set standard, what standard are they following??? The answer is the one that saves them the most money.

I have no idea who this "salesman" is that receives "kickbacks" from BCM. We are Distributor for BCM. Could we have a shop full of Del-Ton products tomorrow? Sure could, but we CHOOSE not to. Why? Because when our customers ask me if they can bet their life on this gun, I have to tell them the truth.
My life and the lives of my loved ones are worth MORE than an entry level AR made by a company that focuses not on quality, but on cost. YMMV.
BCM sends out between 1%-5% faulty products, as seen by the "my BCM is broken" threads.They keep this low by inspecting parts before shipping out. This doesn't mean 100% are good...only 95% are good. No QA is flawless. To BCM 1% - 5% is acceptable and they cover the cost to return and fix those products. DTi on the other hand is a web-based supplier. They keep cost low by NOT inspecting those SAME PARTS. They have a slightly higher return rate of 2%-8%. They deal in volume so replacing doesn't cost them as much...and they don't fight you as much as BCM from what others have told me when dealing with BCM on issues like short stroking and cosmetic blemishes.

Every company has a product that fails for breaks. Anything made by man can and will fail. Companies that use higher quality products and assemble their products properly have a much better chance of them being reliable.
I have zero idea where you are getting these return rate numbers from. My guess is that you are just making them up.
There is a lot more that goes into quality parts than just "inspecting" them. First, you MUST order a quality part. This means the right materials and machined to a spec. Then the part will go through various levels of QC/QA from that manufacturer. When the part finally arrives at BCM, they have jigs (go no go gauges) that they run parts through to further ensure that the company they bought them from did their job (trust, but verify).

When discussing a product, please at least have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of said item. It appears you don't even own a BCM so really know nothing about what you are talking about.

90% of the time your DTi will be fine.
95% of the time your BCM will be fine.
Is the extra money for a BCM worth it? Thats for the buyer to decide.


I guess it depends on what the definition of "fine" is. For me, the gun would have to survive 3-5 carbine schools a year (every year). This will break most low quality AR's.

I am sure though that if your AR just sits in the safe or is shot S L O W F I R E off a bench at your local gun club (as they won't allow you to shoot faster than what a bolt can fire) for a grand total of 100rds a month, then yes, use whatever AR you want (as it really does not matter).


If you ever get a chance, take a Pat Rogers carbine class. Ask Pat to see his book of all the broken AR parts and guns in it. Guess which AR manufacturers fill the pages? The ones that don't follow the TDP. This is commonly referred to as a CLUE!





C4

coyotebait
12-09-2011, 7:49 AM
^^^

:popcorn:

fine for plinking, but you can get much better for $1k

:rofl: we even got one of those "100 flawless rounds" posts
I love those!!:rolleyes:
No.

Get a PSA cheaper and better. And their customer service gives a damn.

The only down side I see to the op buying PSA is that he can't walk into a store and put his bugger hooks on one. (that I know of) whereas Del-Ton, he can. With that said, I got the PSA M4 rifle kit and mated it to a Spike's lower, added a Raddlock and a Magpul 10/20 mag. Cost was less than $700.00. (disclaimer; My rifle is shootable and could be complete to some peoples liking, however, I'm not done with it yet.:D )

Oh, and I have 120 rounds through mine without a hiccup. :rofl:

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 7:50 AM
I love those!!:rolleyes:


The only down side I see to the op buying PSA is that he can't walk into a store and put his bugger hooks on one. (that I know of) whereas Del-Ton, he can. With that said, I got the PSA M4 rifle kit and mated it to a Spike's lower, added a Raddlock and a Magpul 10/20 mag. Cost was less than $700.00. (disclaimer; My rifle is shootable and could be complete to some peoples liking, however, I'm not done with it yet.:D )

Agree. I would take a PSA or ST gun over a Del-Ton X 1,000.



C4

Mail Clerk
12-09-2011, 8:02 AM
I dont own one, but Ive observed people trashing them for years but never with anything concrete.

"Low grade, low tier, poor blah blah"

So its not a CHF chrome barrel with a 1:7 twist! Awww crap, there went my plans to submit my home assembled rifle for military trials!

MrPlink,

I beleive you can get one with a chrome lined barrel!! You just have to ask for one...wasn't there a recent article about them and the sample had a chrome bore??? I think they did.

Anyway for a basic KISS rifle it's the perfect example for a price to fit anyone. The only custom item I always add is a hard-chrome bolt and carrier. For myself I will not buy those fancy vereions that cost over 1K. It's too much for a rifle that has fancy toys attached on them. You can always save your money later and add it.

Arisaka
12-09-2011, 8:23 AM
Go/No-Go gauges are "jigs they
run parts through to further ensure
that the company they bought them
from did their job"? All that the gauge does is check headspace, which is something that anyone assembling a rifle MUST do before test firing. Delton test fires their uppers before letting them out the door, so they ARE headspaced properly, without a doubt. Hardly a practice that would put one company above another. It's necessary, and they all do it.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:03 AM
Go/No-Go gauges are "jigs they
run parts through to further ensure
that the company they bought them
from did their job"? All that the gauge does is check headspace, which is something that anyone assembling a rifle MUST do before test firing. Delton test fires their uppers before letting them out the door, so they ARE headspaced properly, without a doubt. Hardly a practice that would put one company above another. It's necessary, and they all do it.

LOL, no I wasn't talking about checking head spacing. ;)



C4

Arisaka
12-09-2011, 9:08 AM
What else do you use a no-go gauge for? Curious.

comblock
12-09-2011, 9:18 AM
Maybe the profit margins are significantly higher for selling a BCM product than a Delton product? Just guessing.

msand951
12-09-2011, 9:19 AM
I have a PSA upper on my aero lower. But If I had 1k for a AR . And you didnt want to build one, I would buy the colt but thats just me and if I had 1k to burn. Its on sale this week a little over a grand. ;)

http://www.turners.com/engage/displayads.php

comblock
12-09-2011, 9:21 AM
You can actually go on the delton website and have a live chat with a customer rep. im with a rep right now. any questions you want to ask them? :)

msand951
12-09-2011, 9:24 AM
Most ARs will work fine . If you clean and lube them you will be ok. It just comes down to how much you want to spend and if you care about brands.

comblock
12-09-2011, 9:24 AM
me: how's the quality on delton rifles?
You are next in queue. We will be with you in just a moment.
Megan: great, you can read reviews at ar-15.com and on our website
me: ok. Im a member with calguns.net and there are many questions about the delton rifles. some myths to perhaps. Do you guys do an incoming inspection on all parts put into a delton rifle?
Megan: yes, we have a quality control department

comblock
12-09-2011, 9:29 AM
me: cool. how do you compare your rifles to your competitors, say like Bravo Company, Noveske and the other rifle makers that manufacture higher volume rifles like say LMT, Colt, Knights Armament
Megan: we use some of the same distributors as these companies, I don''t know what you really want to me to tell you

comblock
12-09-2011, 9:38 AM
Megan: we offer LEO and Military discounts, are you a member of AR-15.com
me: No. I am not a member of AR-15.com. I am a member of Calguns.net. Have you heard of us? We are a group of firearms enthusiasts in California. Please come visit our site at www.calguns.net
Megan: I will visit, but no I have never heard of that site
Megan: *** Left the conversation ***
me: Please do there are over 20,000 active members. The site is www.calguns.net and it is the leading firearms forum in the state of California.
...

(I dont think she got my last text)

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:41 AM
What else do you use a no-go gauge for? Curious.

You can make (custom) for EVERY part on the gun (upper receiver, bolts, carrier, RE, etc, etc).




C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:42 AM
Maybe the profit margins are significantly higher for selling a BCM product than a Delton product? Just guessing.

Nope. Most all companies have about the same profit margins (20-25% being the norm).




C4

PolishMike
12-09-2011, 9:47 AM
As I have said on here multiple times. I would not touch one with a ten foot pole.

There are now plenty of other good sub $1000 AR's that are going to be much higher quality.

coyotebait
12-09-2011, 9:48 AM
Megan: we offer LEO and Military discounts, are you a member of AR-15.com
me: No. I am not a member of AR-15.com. I am a member of Calguns.net. Have you heard of us? We are a group of firearms enthusiasts in California. Please come visit our site at www.calguns.net
Megan: I will visit, but no I have never heard of that site
Megan: *** Left the conversation ***
me: Please do there are over 20,000 active members. The site is www.calguns.net and it is the leading firearms forum in the state of California.
...

(I dont think she got my last text)

Is it just me, or did Megan sound a little .....I don't know, "snooty?"

racky
12-09-2011, 9:51 AM
my delton has over 10k rounds. no bull*****. it's not even chrome lined and it's still running. been through 5 carbine classes and 1 appleseed. i'll bet my life on it. and i only shoot wolf ammo.

people that say "is your life only worth a $600 AR" trust their lives to glocks. think about that for a second.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:53 AM
Is it just me, or did Megan sound a little .....I don't know, "snooty?"

LOL, I think we have to remember that the people that typically answer the phones and or provide CS, know VERY little about the products their company sells. So just about anything they say is worthless.



C4

coyotebait
12-09-2011, 9:56 AM
Megan: we offer LEO and Military discounts, are you a member of AR-15.com
me: No. I am not a member of AR-15.com. I am a member of Calguns.net. Have you heard of us? We are a group of firearms enthusiasts in California. Please come visit our site at www.calguns.net
Megan: I will visit, but no I have never heard of that site
Megan: *** Left the conversation ***
me: Please do there are over 20,000 active members. The site is www.calguns.net and it is the leading firearms forum in the state of California.
...

(I dont think she got my last text)

LOL, I think we have to remember that the people that typically answer the phones and or provide CS, know VERY little about the products their company sells. So just about anything they say is worthless.



C4

I wonder if she's ever held one. :confused:

Akers
12-09-2011, 10:14 AM
Pretty sure PSA ships to CA now...I know they do all the parts, not sure on full weapons.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/9007.php

Good quality for the price.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 10:15 AM
people that say "is your life only worth a $600 AR" trust their lives to glocks. think about that for a second.


It really has nothing to with cost. It has to do with quality. If Colt or BCM rifles were $600, I would be recommending them just the same.


C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 10:17 AM
I wonder if she's ever held one. :confused:

Probably not. Not to pick on her, but it is VERY common for people that work in the firearms industry to have NO INTEREST in guns. They simply work in Sales or CS.



C4

comblock
12-09-2011, 10:18 AM
I wonder if she's ever held one. :confused:

A calguns member???:confused: I didnt ask her.

stormy_clothing
12-09-2011, 10:18 AM
If this is a if your life depends on it issue then you should buy a gun tested for life depends on it issues not parts "battle tested" at random.

Something like this for instance http://www.adcorindustries.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/HP-White-Laboratory-Inc.pdf

Deltons are fine for most, if my life depended on it i would spend double for adcor but for just enjoying shooting and having 700 extra for ammo instead I'd go that road.

coyotebait
12-09-2011, 10:23 AM
Pretty sure PSA ships to CA now...I know they do all the parts, not sure on full weapons.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/9007.php

Good quality for the price.
They do ship complete weapons to California now, it's just that by the time you pay all the fees involved, it's a bit more pricey. I got my kit shipped to me at my house, shipping was $15 IIRC. As soon as you involve the FFL (or at least the wrong one) it can get expensive.

Probably not. Not to pick on her, but it is VERY common for people that work in the firearms industry to have NO INTEREST in guns. They simply work in Sales or CS.



C4

Agreed. I am the equipment manager at a very high end Country Club......I hate golf!

socal44
12-09-2011, 10:42 AM
Funny stuff here on Calguns...

When I read this-
I don't have any Deltons in my battery.....

I see this -

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7013/6482894517_d8d3b5463d.jpg
:rofl:

coyotebait
12-09-2011, 10:55 AM
/\ /\ /\
That's golden!

Cyc Wid It
12-09-2011, 2:00 PM
Next carbine class/competition, look around and see how many Del-Tons there are :).

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 2:44 PM
Next carbine class/competition, look around and see how many Del-Tons there are :).

Uh, there aren't any. :)



C4

Cyc Wid It
12-09-2011, 2:52 PM
Exactly.

comblock
12-09-2011, 3:22 PM
delton upper :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR10x7eVPbs

comblock
12-09-2011, 3:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSshnzdgU8

dieselpower
12-09-2011, 8:03 PM
I have yet to see a verified list of component differences. Its all BS. As you can see here. The reason you dont see DTis at carbine classes is because people have bought into the BS. I remember the days where people where trading in Colts for Bushmasters. I remember when RRA was "top shelf".

Dont give me your bs fad answers. I have worked on the AR15 platform since mid 1980s. I have seen it all, I have researched most of it. 90% of the things that come out of peoples mouths is complete BS. Mr. Rogers sees and records what he wants too, and only what supports HIS OPINION. He sees a Stag lower and records it as a Stag failure, even when the user admits to HOME BUILDING THE RIFLE.

A DTi is 100% the same as a BCM if that is how you build it. I can home build a BCM into a jam-o-matic POS... does that mean BCM is lower end crap?. YES IT DOES BY YOUR LOGIC.

DTi lowers are mil-spec Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum that has been hardcoat anodized (http://www.del-ton.com/Del_Ton_Lower_Receiver_p/lr100.htm)
DTi internals (LPK) are CMT, FN or LMT http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Lower_Parts_Standard_s/85.htm
DTi Stocks are Commercial USA made, Commercial Made in China, Mil-spec made in China, Mil-spec made in USA...its all AT YOUR OPTION. 6 pages, including Magpul, VLtor, KAC.. (http://www.del-ton.com/ar15_buttstocks_s/8.htm?searching=Y&sort=9&cat=8&show=10&page=1)
DTi uppers are Mil-spec from the same foundries ALL OTHER UPPERS COME FROM. including VLtor and Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Upper_Receivers_s/88.htm)
DTi Barrels are 4140, 4150, 4150CMV, SS, 416, whatever you want. Including Chrome Moly Vanadium 1/7 twist M4 with M203 cutout for the mall ninja in us all... (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrels_s/3.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=3&show=10&page=1)

If you think BCM has some magical potion or voodoo, you need to buy that clue for yourself. Its 100% snob BS vomited from those who pretend to know what they are talking about to sell a fantasy to boys and men. I can and HAVE listed scientific information disproving ALL of that BS. I have shown when you take a step back from the SHTF/SEAL/SWAT fantasy and look at the data you see just how FOOLISH you are when buying into this "tier" BS pushed by the "gurus". The Staking foolishness, the mil-b-11595E LIE, MPI/HT testing scare tactic ...its all slight of hand BS. When you sit down and look at the data...its all slight of hand misdirecting you from the REAL issue.

tileguy
12-09-2011, 8:21 PM
very well said diesel power, you just saved me a lot of writing

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:40 PM
I have yet to see a verified list of component differences. Its all BS. As you can see here. The reason you dont see DTis at carbine classes is because people have bought into the BS. I remember the days where people where trading in Colts for Bushmasters. I remember when RRA was "top shelf".

Dont give me your bs fad answers. I have worked on the AR15 platform since mid 1980s. I have seen it all, I have researched most of it. 90% of the things that come out of peoples mouths is complete BS. Mr. Rogers sees and records what he wants too, and only what supports HIS OPINION. He sees a Stag lower and records it as a Stag failure, even when the user admits to HOME BUILDING THE RIFLE.

A DTi is 100% the same as a BCM if that is how you build it. I can home build a BCM into a jam-o-matic POS... does that mean BCM is lower end crap?. YES IT DOES BY YOUR LOGIC.

DTi lowers are mil-spec Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum that has been hardcoat anodized (http://www.del-ton.com/Del_Ton_Lower_Receiver_p/lr100.htm)
DTi internals (LPK) are CMT, FN or LMT http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Lower_Parts_Standard_s/85.htm
DTi Stocks are Commercial USA made, Commercial Made in China, Mil-spec made in China, Mil-spec made in USA...its all AT YOUR OPTION. 6 pages, including Magpul, VLtor, KAC.. (http://www.del-ton.com/ar15_buttstocks_s/8.htm?searching=Y&sort=9&cat=8&show=10&page=1)
DTi uppers are Mil-spec from the same foundries ALL OTHER UPPERS COME FROM. including VLtor and Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Upper_Receivers_s/88.htm)
DTi Barrels are 4140, 4150, 4150CMV, SS, 416, whatever you want. Including Chrome Moly Vanadium 1/7 twist M4 with M203 cutout for the mall ninja in us all... (http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrels_s/3.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=3&show=10&page=1)

If you think BCM has some magical potion or voodoo, you need to buy that clue for yourself. Its 100% snob BS vomited from those who pretend to know what they are talking about to sell a fantasy to boys and men. I can and HAVE listed scientific information disproving ALL of that BS. I have shown when you take a step back from the SHTF/SEAL/SWAT fantasy and look at the data you see just how FOOLISH you are when buying into this "tier" BS pushed by the "gurus". The Staking foolishness, the mil-b-11595E LIE, MPI/HT testing scare tactic ...its all slight of hand BS. When you sit down and look at the data...its all slight of hand misdirecting you from the REAL issue.


I am not sure if you are reading what you are even writing or are just making things up. For instance, where do you get the proof on their LPK's?? We sell LMT LPK's. In fact, we use many parts from LMT in our (G&R) LPK's. Del-Ton IS NOT using anything from them (FYI).

When you own your own AR company and put tons of work and research into offering the best parts, wouldn't you scream it from the mountain tops?? Yes you would. So let's look at some things here. Below is BCM description for their barrels:



M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension
In developing the USGI M4 carbine as one of the primary weapons for todayís infantry, some modifications were performed to the original M16 platform to enhance the reliability of the shorter barreled carbines. With the shorter carbine gas system and the increased gas port pressure, the carbine cycled faster, and at times the cycle rate could be faster than the magazine would feed ammunition. One of the modifications done to increase reliable feeding included enhancing the angle and the length of the feed ramps. This USGI modification was done to both the barrel extension and the upper receiver, creating a longer and steeper feed ramp. These Mil-Spec M4 feed ramps are part of the original CNC manufacturing process. As a result, the factory machined M4 feed ramps on the receiver are hard coat anodized which adds significant strength to the aluminum. This feature is offered on all BCM barrels.


USGI 1/7 Twist Rate
The USGI 1/7 twist rate of all of the BCM barrels is the preferred twist rate by most professional infantryman. This twist rate has proven very versatile and can effectively run the new heavier 5.56 ammo that is hugely popular with military and private security personal for itsí superior ballistics.

Mil-Spec Barrel Steel (Mil-B-11595E)
BCM barrel steel is Mil-Spec per MIL-B-11595E. This grade (CMV) of steel is a Mil-Spec steel used in the USGI M16 family of rifles; it is stronger and will last longer than the typical barrels offered in the commercial market. The Mil-Spec grade steel gets itsí additional strength and rigidity from an increase in carbon and/or vanadium in the alloy. This will offer increased barrel life and performance through use in all types of extreme environments and temperatures.

Chrome Bore and Chamber
One of the first modifications that were made to the original M16 in the mid 1960ís was the addition of the chrome lined bore and chamber. It is now a world wide standard in the industry for a battle rifle. The chrome bore and chamber is harder than the barrel steel and on the USGI M16/M4 rifles will aid in chambering, extraction, and reliability. It increases velocity, and also resist against fouling and corrosion from extended use in the field. This gives the end user a longer barrel life with less required time in maintenance and cleaning.

Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
Barrels are parkerized with the manganese phosphate finish (Mil-Spec A-A-59267). Military specifications also state that the entire barrel surface is phosphate finished to create a porous surface to absorb oil as to resist against corrosion from the elements. BCM barrels are phosphated before installation of front sights. This is a much more extensive assembly operation, but insures that the entire barrel is finished and protected . . .even under the front sight base.

5.56 NATO Chambers
The USGI 5.56 NATO chamber is the best choice for effective deployment, reliability, and compatibility, of higher chamber pressures of military ammo.


Government Barrel Profiles
Duty rifles are built to be carried - day in and day out. The USGI barrel profiles (often referred to as the Government Profile) enable the operator to carry their weapon for longer periods of time and deploy them faster than the heavier commercial H-Barrel counterparts. The government profile barrel is also compatible with the current M203 mounting systems.

HPT / MP Inspected Barrels
Military specifications require that barrels undergo a HPT (High-Pressure Test) load as a part of quality assurance procedures. Commonly referred to as a proof load, the M197 HPT is rated for 70,000 psi. BCM barrels are proof loaded and then MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) to detect any possible flaws in the barrels surface. The barrels are MP inspected with both circular and longitudinal magnetic fields per ASTME1444-01 (current Mil-Spec) to assure a high quality finished product. All BCM barrels are marked HP MP as our proof load marking.

Copyright © 2009 Bravo Company MFG, Inc.




Features
M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension (USGI)
USGI 1/7 Twist Rates
USGI 5.56 NATO Chambers
Mil-Spec 11595E - Barrel Steel (CMV)
Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish
LIGHT WEIGHT Profile Barrels
HPT (High Pressure Test) Barrels
MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected) Barrels


What DTI wrote:

6" pre-ban mid length.
1x7 twist cmv chrome lined barrel.
Comes with FSB, barrel nut, and handguard cap.
Does NOT include front sight post, detent, spring or front sling and rivet.



Next question, have you EVER seen any technical data posted by DTI backing up their claims of steel used, HPT and MPI? Here is BCM documents backing up their claims:http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063


In regards to Pat Rogers, have you ever taken his class? Ever actually looked at his book of broken parts? I have and would suggest that you know what you are talking about before stating that someone is lying or attempting to mislead people.




C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBSshnzdgU8

I am not really sure of what we are watching with these vids? DTI sponsored shooters at gun games??

I have been attending carbine shooting schools since the early 2000's. I have trained under all the best instructors. To date, I have not come across a single DTI AR in class. In fact, I know of no professional firearms instructor that recommends them. Not Rogers, Vickers, Hackathorn, Costa, Defoor, Lamb, etc, etc. I am a Vickers Shooting Method Instructor and see about 30-40 students a month. I have yet to see a single DTI rifle. So maybe that is a clue?

In fact, I have to wonder if anyone that owns a DTI AR has ever attended a professionally taught carbine class.

Since this is a DTI thread with lots of fans, lets do a poll! If you own said rifle and have attended a class, list the instructor, date, rounds fired and length of the class.

I am sure there has to be at least one person right?




C4

NorCalRedneck
12-09-2011, 8:50 PM
I am not sure if you are reading what you are even writing or are just making things up... blah blah blah



C4

If you looked they have their specs right here (which look remarkably similar to the BCM specs, hmmmm) . And sorry they skip all the marketing BS fluff and provide just the specs, that must make their product inferior (I don't need to read a paragraph on why they use M4 feed ramps).

Have you even ever owned a Delton rifle or is everything you're saying pure speculation?


Barrel:
Chrome Moly Vanadium, Chrome Lined
M4 Feed Ramps
16" Length
1x9 Twist
A2 Flash Hider
Manganese Phosphated
Phosphated under Front Sight Base
Taper Pins in A2 Front Sight Base
Threaded Muzzle
M4 Profile Barrel

Chamber:
5.56 X 45 mm

Bolt And Carrier:
Phosphated 8620 Steel Carrier Assembly
Carpenter 158 Bolt HPT/MPI Tested
Heat Treated and Plated
Mil-Spec
Chrome Lined Carrier Interior
Carrier Key - Chrome Lined, attached with Grade 8 Screws
Properly Staked & Sealed Gas Key

Handguards:
Carbine Length 4 Rail Free Float System
Mil-Spec hard coat anodized
Rails are mil-spec 1913
Oval shape
Includes 3 rail panels
Made by Daniel Defense

Upper Receiver:
Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum
A3 Flat Top with M4 Feed Ramps
Hard Coat Anodized
Mil-Spec
Ejection Port Cover and Round Forward Assist
Right Hand Ejection
Bore's surface is coated with dry film lube, over the anodized surface

Cyc Wid It
12-09-2011, 8:57 PM
There's major differences just looking at the barrels... funny people trying to take Grant to task.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:03 PM
If you looked they have their specs right here (which look remarkably similar to the BCM specs, hmmmm) . And sorry they skip all the marketing BS fluff and provide just the specs, that must make their product inferior (I don't need to read a paragraph on why they use M4 feed ramps).

Have you even ever owned a Delton rifle or is everything you're saying pure speculation?


Barrel:
Chrome Moly Vanadium, Chrome Lined
M4 Feed Ramps
16" Length
1x9 Twist
A2 Flash Hider
Manganese Phosphated
Phosphated under Front Sight Base
Taper Pins in A2 Front Sight Base
Threaded Muzzle
M4 Profile Barrel

Chamber:
5.56 X 45 mm

Bolt And Carrier:
Phosphated 8620 Steel Carrier Assembly
Carpenter 158 Bolt HPT/MPI Tested
Heat Treated and Plated
Mil-Spec
Chrome Lined Carrier Interior
Carrier Key - Chrome Lined, attached with Grade 8 Screws
Properly Staked & Sealed Gas Key

Handguards:
Carbine Length 4 Rail Free Float System
Mil-Spec hard coat anodized
Rails are mil-spec 1913
Oval shape
Includes 3 rail panels
Made by Daniel Defense

Upper Receiver:
Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum
A3 Flat Top with M4 Feed Ramps
Hard Coat Anodized
Mil-Spec
Ejection Port Cover and Round Forward Assist
Right Hand Ejection
Bore's surface is coated with dry film lube, over the anodized surface


Your right, it does! Almost like they copied it from BCM.

I have to wonder though if they do what they say they do. Especially when we see bolts from them that look like this:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/imagejpeg952.jpg




C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:06 PM
There's major differences just looking at the barrels... funny people trying to take Grant to task.


After spending nearly 12 years on gun forums, I have come to realize the following:

1. People are married to their purchases (no matter how much they suck). They bought it so it must be good!
2. Ignorance is bliss. They aren't interested in the details (especially if it makes them look stupid).

Personally, I don't care if people want to buy DTI products. Be my guest and with all the money you saved, go to a training class and learn how to use it!



C4

MrPlink
12-09-2011, 9:10 PM
OP: if you are still reading through all this... get an AK :p

NorCalRedneck
12-09-2011, 9:11 PM
After spending nearly 12 years on gun forums, I have come to realize the following:

1. People are married to their purchases (no matter how much they suck). They bought it so it must be good!
2. Ignorance is bliss. They aren't interested in the details (especially if it makes them look stupid).

Personally, I don't care if people want to buy DTI products. Be my guest and with all the money you saved, go to a training class and learn how to use it!



C4

Conversely, people automatically believe the more expensive a product is the better quality it will be. They don't realize they have just bought into the marketing.

And to answer your question on classes. Yes, I own a Delton rifle and no I haven't ever been to a class. The majority of people that own them probably don't have the money to buy the more expensive rifles therefore they don't have the money to spend on a class learning to be a mall ninja.

MrPlink
12-09-2011, 9:12 PM
After spending nearly 12 years on gun forums, I have come to realize the following:

1. People are married to their purchases (no matter how much they suck). They bought it so it must be good!



Im actually going to agree with you on this one.

Its a common defense mechanism of a consumerist society.

"If money is power and security, to imply that I used mine foolishly implies that I myself am foolish"

On the other hand, you are a salesman so... :D

Lagduf
12-09-2011, 10:12 PM
I am not really sure of what we are watching with these vids? DTI sponsored shooters at gun games??

I have been attending carbine shooting schools since the early 2000's. I have trained under all the best instructors. To date, I have not come across a single DTI AR in class. In fact, I know of no professional firearms instructor that recommends them. Not Rogers, Vickers, Hackathorn, Costa, Defoor, Lamb, etc, etc. I am a Vickers Shooting Method Instructor and see about 30-40 students a month. I have yet to see a single DTI rifle. So maybe that is a clue?

In fact, I have to wonder if anyone that owns a DTI AR has ever attended a professionally taught carbine class.

Since this is a DTI thread with lots of fans, lets do a poll! If you own said rifle and have attended a class, list the instructor, date, rounds fired and length of the class.

I am sure there has to be at least one person right?




C4

In your classes what company's guns are most of your students running?

freonr22
12-09-2011, 10:24 PM
tag

Arisaka
12-09-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm down with DelTon. Why is it that only AR's are subject to this minute level of scrutiny? I mean it's downright nitpicky. Does anyone argue about which AK variant is good enough to bet your life on? Or any other rifle for that matter? Nope. Only ARs. Is the platform so crappy that if the parts aren't put under a microscope before going out the thing will break? I only own one AR, the rest of my rifles I build from crusty, cosmoline soaked piles of leftover parts that look like junk. But they are "milspec" since they used to be actual military rifles. I have a hard time believing that a brand new AR is going to be more fragile and prone to failure than a parts kit build CETME/AK/Galil what have you. Maybe it's true. If it is, to the OP I say **** an AR 15 and buy yourself something else.

dieselpower
12-09-2011, 10:44 PM
Your right, it does! Almost like they copied it from BCM.

I have to wonder though if they do what they say they do. Especially when we see bolts from them that look like this:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/usmcmonty/imagejpeg952.jpg




C4

or rifles that look like this...
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/meansnothing.jpg

proves NOTHING...

freonr22
12-09-2011, 10:46 PM
Now Diesel, that could have been a hesse upper on the colt lower

UserM4
12-09-2011, 11:15 PM
Two different guns for two different purposes. You can take a Taurus PT92 to the range and go plinking with it. It doesn't mean that it's a good idea to take it into combat over a Beretta 92. They look the same. Were even machined using the same tools. But in the end, you get documented issues with more Taurus than Beretta.

Doesn't mean that you couldn't use a Taurus to defend yourself and your loved ones. But for just a little bit more, you can get a Beretta and a piece of mind knowing that your gun will go bang everytime... until your locking block breaks that is. :p ALL guns will break parts and things will wear out eventually. But some are known to last longer.

dieselpower
12-09-2011, 11:26 PM
Im actually going to agree with you on this one.

Its a common defense mechanism of a consumerist society.

"If money is power and security, to imply that I used mine foolishly implies that I myself am foolish"

On the other hand, you are a salesman so... :D

He is a salesman. He has ZERO proof of his beliefs and the worst part is science proves him wrong... yet he must cling to his flawed logic or his world collapses. He truly thinks if you place a BCM, LMT or another "cool favor of the month" roll mark on an item it will last longer and be stronger then one without it.

I'm sure he thinks mil-b-11595e is a barrel standard that says all rifles in the military have to have 4150CMV as many salesman say...its a LIE... it really it simple says IF you offer a barrel made with 4150CMV, it must past testing in mil-b-11595E and be certified by the same standard..... OR he thinks only rifles with 4150CMV barrels are "combat" worthy... yet AK47, AK74s, HKs, Sigs, have 4140CM... Please explain if 4140CM is so bad, why is the AK47 so good? How are we not seeing AK47s melt on the battle field? Shouldnt we be seeing this in combat? Get a freaking CLUE!

twist...the Military says 1:7 is the best...for THEM...when in fact 1:8 is the best and the difference between 1:9 vs 1:7 vs 1:8 is so minute its not even funny. The killing potential of the heaviest 5.56 is still limited to the RANGE and accuracy of the shooter. past a certain point it doesn't matter. At and WITHIN the killing range of the 5.56 all three twist do the same damage with the same ammo. Now for the civilian its doesn't really matter, but the mall ninja cant hear this fact because he has to believe his twist is the superior one.

Cheap parts... so if I put a cheap BCG in a BCM it will not break... just stop and think. When a person has a choice between a $150 BCG and a $75 BCG..it doesn't matter what the freaking side of the gun says. Stag, CMT, BCM, DTi are all the same...why? because I can pick which BCG I install. After years of replacing failed BCGs and Bolts in the MILITARY... I can freaking guarantee you Colt and FN Bolts fail often. I got stuck in an Armory rebuilding M16A2s for months. I replace new Bolts for failures too. Does this mean FN and Colt manufacturer bad bolts? Does this mean they didnt test them... both are No. Testing only gives you a measure of assurance of no flaws..it doesnt guarantee no flaws. Heat and stress alter metal. It can pass one HT/MPI test and the next second develop micro fractures. the testing only shows a good manufacturing process. Once you have that process in place (CMT),... the product remains the same. This is why CMT only batch tests. they know their process is spot on and if flaws do creep in, batch testing will spot defects before more than a few get out. That is why Colt and FN BOTH use CMT for overflow replacement parts. There are many unmarked Colts in the military. They fail at no greater rate than marked ones.

The same goes for all the other LPK parts.

FTR, I do not own nor have I ever owned a DTi. I have owned Colts, Bushmasters, and ArmaLite complete factory built firearms. I have built and maintained hundreds of Colts and FNs. I care little for a roll mark. I dont trust any rifle more than another. I built my rifle with parts from verified vendors and still carry spare parts because I am NOT some dumb mall ninja who listens to salesmans BS. I know my rifle will break at some point. The fact it didnt when I pulled the trigger has little to do with whether or not it will break when I pull that trigger again.

comblock
12-10-2011, 12:02 AM
Two different guns for two different purposes. You can take a Taurus PT92 to the range and go plinking with it. It doesn't mean that it's a good idea to take it into combat over a Beretta 92. They look the same. Were even machined using the same tools. But in the end, you get documented issues with more Taurus than Beretta.

Doesn't mean that you couldn't use a Taurus to defend yourself and your loved ones. But for just a little bit more, you can get a Beretta and a piece of mind knowing that your gun will go bang everytime... until your locking block breaks that is. :p ALL guns will break parts and things will wear out eventually. But some are known to last longer.

Dont other militaries, not the american military, use the taurus pt92 as their sidearm? eg Brazil?? Im confused.

UserM4
12-10-2011, 12:17 AM
Dont other militaries, not the american military, use the taurus pt92 as their sidearm? eg Brazil?? Im confused.

Don't really know. But if you're paying out of your own pocket, wouldn't you pay a little bit more for a weapon with a better track record? If I was issued a Taurus, and had an option to pay the difference for a Beretta, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Obviously, they probably wouldn't have that option.

Anyways, having worked with tools and hardware for the better part of my life, I can honestly say that not all tools are made with the same quality steel. I don't skimp on my tools because they're my livelihood. I wouldn't skimp on a rifle if I could pay a little bit more for a proven one.

comblock
12-10-2011, 12:31 AM
Don't really know. But if you're paying out of your own pocket, wouldn't you pay a little bit more for a weapon with a better track record? If I was issued a Taurus, and had an option to pay the difference for a Beretta, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Obviously, they probably wouldn't have that option.

Anyways, having worked with tools and hardware for the better part of my life, I can honestly say that not all tools are made with the same quality steel. I don't skimp on my tools because they're my livelihood. I wouldn't skimp on a rifle if I could pay a little bit more for a proven one.

If there is no value added to paying a bit more than no. I can leverage my money elsewhere. Next.

maxima
12-10-2011, 12:32 AM
Don't really know. But if you're paying out of your own pocket, wouldn't you pay a little bit more for a weapon with a better track record? If I was issued a Taurus, and had an option to pay the difference for a Beretta, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Obviously, they probably wouldn't have that option.

Anyways, having worked with tools and hardware for the better part of my life, I can honestly say that not all tools are made with the same quality steel. I don't skimp on my tools because they're my livelihood. I wouldn't skimp on a rifle if I could pay a little bit more for a proven one.

Which rifle you refer as proven one compared to Del-Ton? Select fire M4/M16 or Civilian Colt/BCM/DD/Noveske/Bushmaster, etc.?:rolleyes:

Evolipse35
12-10-2011, 12:39 AM
Del-tons are pretty good, was my first AR-15 and it eats every cheap russian ammo sold in Wal-Mart or gunshows with no hesitation. I bought mine from Turners last year with the FDE Magpul parts. All i did was change the handguard to a free float and still worked perfectly. Its great for beginners, its cheap, its made in the USA. It sucks to hear negative feedbacks (1 negative > 100 positives), to me i hang around with people who frankensteins their ar15 from JD Machine, Noveske, Aero, Stag parts, and it all does the same thing...shoots bullet. I got a friend who bought S&W MP ar15 and during the de-virginize his spent bullet casing didn't extract. After looking like a fool trying to pry out live ammo stuck in the chamber in the shooting lanes, found out it was a bad extractor. Now did he cry foul and yell out like "Khaaaaan"? Nope just got the extractor replaced. Now he can say that S&W sucks at making ar-15 but why? it still works right after. The only one i don't trust are no name brand or self employed vendors from the gunshows cause their parts are probably made in China.

Brown Rock
12-10-2011, 12:45 AM
BCM :hide:

NorCalRedneck
12-10-2011, 1:30 AM
Del-tons are pretty good, was my first AR-15 and it eats every cheap russian ammo sold in Wal-Mart or gunshows with no hesitation. I bought mine from Turners last year with the FDE Magpul parts. All i did was change the handguard to a free float and still worked perfectly. Its great for beginners, its cheap, its made in the USA. It sucks to hear negative feedbacks (1 negative > 100 positives), to me i hang around with people who frankensteins their ar15 from JD Machine, Noveske, Aero, Stag parts, and it all does the same thing...shoots bullet. I got a friend who bought S&W MP ar15 and during the de-virginize his spent bullet casing didn't extract. After looking like a fool trying to pry out live ammo stuck in the chamber in the shooting lanes, found out it was a bad extractor. Now did he cry foul and yell out like "Khaaaaan"? Nope just got the extractor replaced. Now he can say that S&W sucks at making ar-15 but why? it still works right after. The only one i don't trust are no name brand or self employed vendors from the gunshows cause their parts are probably made in China.

If it worked so great then why is only good for beginners? I hear this phrase so much when referring to Del Ton. "Good beginner gun". What does that mean?

comblock
12-10-2011, 1:32 AM
I think I see where the disconnect is.

The OP is questioning if Delton is any good (such an open ended question).

So to clarify to the OP, if you use your AR15 for shooting at the range or in open land such as BLM desert land and you will be shooting at paper/metal targets mostly from a static position(eg on a bench sitting, standing, kneeling or prone) or sometimes moving towards, away from or sideways from aforementioned target and you go to said range (or desert) maybe once a month (maybe more if time allows), and shoot less than 1000 rounds an outing and if you have to use your said rifle for a possible home invasion/home defense scenario once or possibly twice in your lifetime or have to endure a SHTF scenario once or possibly twice in your lifetime, or participate in a ar15 "tactical" class and your rifle will sit in a nice gun safe 90% of its lifetime only to be taken out of the safe when used in the range, to be fondled with, or in the other scenarios mentioned above and you will clean said rifle and lubricate said rifle after every outing, inspect it and replace any items that are not in working order then the delton is good to go. I cannot speak about any of the following experiences if the rifle will perform as intended:
1. if you use this rifle every day as your duty rifle or part of your job such as military, law enforcement, or high end top tier tactical trainer.
2. if you shoot fully automatic through this rifle.
3. if you go to war with this rifle
then I cannot guarantee any vote of confidence that the delton will perform as intended. perhaps others with these circumstances will chime in. If, however, the above mentioned is you, then you will be happy with it, unless you are one of those brand name folks.

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 5:59 AM
In your classes what company's guns are most of your students running?

It varies. It would appear to me that people that want to learn how to properly run their firearm (so they can better defend themselves) gravitate towards KNOWN quality firearms. So the common guns seen are Colt, DD, LMT, BCM, Noveske and hybrids (parts guns).

For me personally, I do not own any of the above guns listed. I typically "roll my own" and take parts from each manufacturer.





C4

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 6:08 AM
I'm down with DelTon. Why is it that only AR's are subject to this minute level of scrutiny? I mean it's downright nitpicky. Does anyone argue about which AK variant is good enough to bet your life on? Or any other rifle for that matter? Nope. Only ARs. Is the platform so crappy that if the parts aren't put under a microscope before going out the thing will break? I only own one AR, the rest of my rifles I build from crusty, cosmoline soaked piles of leftover parts that look like junk. But they are "milspec" since they used to be actual military rifles. I have a hard time believing that a brand new AR is going to be more fragile and prone to failure than a parts kit build CETME/AK/Galil what have you. Maybe it's true. If it is, to the OP I say **** an AR 15 and buy yourself something else.

No, it isn't just DTI AR's. We review all of them down to the parts used and how it is assembled.

In regards to AK's, yes there are people that go into great detail concerning the parts used. The difference between AK's and AR's is that we have the TDP. For AK's there isn't one (that I am aware of). So there is no defined set standard.

While I wouldn't view a new "AR" as fragile, but we do see new AR's fail right out of the box. It isn't so much that something breaks as it is an assembly problem.




C4

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 6:12 AM
or rifles that look like this...
http://i655.photobucket.com/albums/uu272/Wiringguy/meansnothing.jpg

proves NOTHING...

A gun that has an over charged round and blows the guns up and lugs breaking off without a bad round isn't the samething.

It is a pattern wit DTI bolts.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=306678



C4

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 6:41 AM
Let's cover some basic truths here:

1. There is a US Govt issued TDP for the M16 and M4. This document establishes a set standard for how to build these guns. Everything is covered from what testing needs to be done, down to the thickness of the chrome in the barrel. Only two companies have this actual document. They are Colt and FNH.

2. Companies that follow a set standard (meaning TDP) are going to build a better gun and assemble it properly (as they have a guideline to follow).

3. Companies that do not follow these specs are going to follow a "standard" that puts the most money in their pocket and allows them to build a gun as cheaply as possible.


Consumers should treat AR manufacturers the same way they do used car salesmen (Trust, but verify). If you read the thread I linked about being a informed consumer, it gives you all the details you need to call up gun manufacturers and validate that they are doing what they say their are doing.





C4

railroader
12-10-2011, 7:07 AM
A gun that has an over charged round and blows the guns up and lugs breaking off without a bad round isn't the samething.

It is a pattern wit DTI bolts.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=306678



C4

Actually according to Del -Ton it was 1 batch of bad bolts that were improperly heat treated. Del-ton has changed heat treaters after this happened. They also promptly exchanged the bad bolts for new ones. All their bolts are now MP/HP tested. Here is a quote


We've found there's a little bit of misconception about our products. People think because we haven't raised our prices, then we're not doing the "upgrades". Well, we'd like to let everyone know that we've upgraded our standards!! These are the things we are now doing to EVERY rifle (or associated part) that leaves here....

- All flat tops have the extended M4 feed ramps
- All bolts are MP/HP tested
- If you order an upper or rifle with a flat top, it will have an F Marked front sight base
- Our carriers are properly staked, and sealed
- All barrels are parkarized under the gas block
- We only use taper pins on our barrels
- All barrels are made of Chrome Moly Vanadium. CMV is an upgrade from the standard chrome moly. We also have the option to chrome line the barrels, or not, and you can chose a 1x7 twist or a 1x9 twist on most profiles.
We offer all of these options to you, as the consumer, so you can chose what you'd like. We don't tell you the options, we let you decide exactly what you'd like.
- As always, each and every upper or rifle that leaves here has been test fired, not a single one leaves the place without having that done

Hopefully this clears things up a little. Please let us know if you ever have any questions! from the Del-ton forum from AR15.com.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_100/208178_Things_we_ve_done_to_our_riflies_and_parts_ _____.html

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 7:36 AM
Actually according to Del -Ton it was 1 batch of bad bolts that were improperly heat treated. Del-ton has changed heat treaters after this happened. They also promptly exchanged the bad bolts for new ones. All their bolts are now MP/HP tested. Here is a quote




http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_100/208178_Things_we_ve_done_to_our_riflies_and_parts_ _____.html

Let me ask you a question. If the engine in your car blows up, whose fault is it? The car manufacturers.

Notice we have never seen this type of issue out of BCM, Colt, Noveske, etc. Why? Because they either make the BCG's in house OR subcontract out to companies that follow the TDP.

When you try and cut every corner you can and buy parts from companies that do that the same, you get things like this happening.


Just sayin......




C4

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 7:43 AM
I have been spending a lot of time on DTI's website and just noticed something. They DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS!

Has no one noticed that they won't ship any rifles or lowers to CA?????????????

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifles_16_s/198.htm


Uhm, do you guys REALLY want to support a company that won't have anything to do with you??????? :confused:


Hell, even Colt came up with specific models just for you guys. ;)



C4

rodeoflyer
12-10-2011, 9:22 AM
I have been spending a lot of time on DTI's website and just noticed something. They DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS!

Has no one noticed that they won't ship any rifles or lowers to CA?????????????

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifles_16_s/198.htm


Uhm, do you guys REALLY want to support a company that won't have anything to do with you??????? :confused:


Hell, even Colt came up with specific models just for you guys. ;)



C4

You mean except for the ones sitting on the rack at every Turners?

and the ones people like myself have?


Not all of us are mall ninjas or BCM fanboys. Get over it.

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 9:31 AM
You mean except for the ones sitting on the rack at every Turners?

and the ones people like myself have?


Not all of us are mall ninjas or BCM fanboys. Get over it.


Dealers buying them and then making them CA legal is different than a company stating this on their website: We do not ship to California.


I have no idea what a Mall Ninja is (sorry). I do know what we call people that do not train with the firearms though. Fudd's or Dirt Shooters. ;)




C4

TF_CAM
12-10-2011, 2:16 PM
I have been spending a lot of time on DTI's website and just noticed something. They DON'T WANT YOUR BUSINESS!

Has no one noticed that they won't ship any rifles or lowers to CA?????????????

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Rifles_16_s/198.htm


Uhm, do you guys REALLY want to support a company that won't have anything to do with you??????? :confused:


Hell, even Colt came up with specific models just for you guys. ;)



C4

Thats B/S.. How did I get a rifle from them if they dont ship to CA? you should troll another post

shooterfpga
12-10-2011, 2:26 PM
Thats B/S.. How did I get a rifle from them if they dont ship to CA? you should troll another post

i guess you dont read. it clearly states as per the official del ton website, which grant kindly linked, they do not sale to california. grant has never been one to spread fud.

Cyc Wid It
12-10-2011, 2:51 PM
Prevailing argument of the day: only mall ninja wannabes take classes, and they all buy into hyped products and want to fit in during said classes. Therefore, you only see the same few brands at every class. My Del-Ton/Stag/Shrubmaster/whatever is at least as good and cost me a little less! If only Vickers/Costa/etc. weren't sponsored by the fancypants brands, they would be using what I have! And psh, Vickers is nothing but a mall ninja. And besides, Del-Ton/Stag/etc. has improved! They correct their mistakes! (these last two statements are probably true to a certain degree)

Same people in another thread: Take some classes and shoot your damn guns already, they aren't safe queens!

Conclusion: People who make this particular argument either plink/bench shoot (not bench-rest because then they wouldn't have Del-Tons)/???

Outliers: "100 flawless round" types, people who have realistic expectations, people looking for the cheapest non Vulcan gun possible

glock7
12-10-2011, 3:02 PM
^hit the head on the nail. del-tons are great for those who want to save money, not an entry-level ar, but those who don't or can't spend the extra money. myself? i'll spend a little more for an ar. i know what works and i know what works when you run it hard. if the del-ton works for you then fine. there is alot of info on the ar platform and the del-ton vs colt, bcm, dd, noveske, lmt thread never get's old.....lol:43:

glock7
12-10-2011, 3:03 PM
i gotta admit, if you can afford to take a class, take one. it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on....

Lagduf
12-10-2011, 3:11 PM
I'll sell my DTI 20" A2 HBAR upper to anyone interested. 1:9 non chrome lined barrel (lol.)

Alternatively anyone want to recommend someone who makes a decent 20" government profile barrel?

PS: Buy Once, Cry Once :(

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 3:18 PM
i guess you dont read. it clearly states as per the official del ton website, which grant kindly linked, they do not sale to california. grant has never been one to spread fud.


THANKS. It appears that reading comprehension is low in this thread.


C4

comblock
12-10-2011, 3:32 PM
i guess you dont read. it clearly states as per the official del ton website, which grant kindly linked, they do not sale to california. grant has never been one to spread fud.

http://smpdigitaledition.com/publication/?i=89017

skip to page 22 of 40. Turner's Outdoors is a local southern california gun shop with many locations throughout southern california.

UserM4
12-10-2011, 3:47 PM
If there is no value added to paying a bit more than no. I can leverage my money elsewhere. Next.

Like I said,Two different guns for two different purposes. You can take a Taurus PT92 to the range and go plinking with it. It doesn't mean that it's a good idea to take it into combat over a Beretta 92. They look the same. Were even machined using the same tools. But in the end, you get documented issues with more Taurus than Beretta.

Doesn't mean that you couldn't use a Taurus to defend yourself and your loved ones. But for just a little bit more, you can get a Beretta and a piece of mind knowing that your gun will go bang everytime... until your locking block breaks that is. :p ALL guns will break parts and things will wear out eventually. But some are known to last longer. It depends on your needs. If you don't see a value in it, no problem.

Which rifle you refer as proven one compared to Del-Ton? Select fire M4/M16 or Civilian Colt/BCM/DD/Noveske/Bushmaster, etc.?:rolleyes:

In civilian usage, which do you see more prevalent being ran hard? You can probably answer your own question. :rolleyes:

I don't dislike Del-Ton. I've got a 20" Del-Ton kit on order. But I see them for what they are. I'm not gonna expect BCM reliability and longitivity out of it. And if it does, great! Regardless, I know I'll have fun plinking with it. And who knows, maybe I'll take a rifle course with it or two.

javalos
12-10-2011, 4:02 PM
I have several DelTon's and they've been reliable and accurate. DelTon makes commercial grade AR's, but they are getting better and in fact they've come a long ways. Their bolts are mil-spec, HPT/MPI tested, their barrels are very good for commercial stuff, CMV, chrome lined, many are 1x7 twist. Judging my my experience and the manufacture of DelTon, this is a rifle that one can depend on with their life.

dieselpower
12-10-2011, 4:11 PM
Let's cover some basic truths here:

1. There is a US Govt issued TDP for the M16 and M4. This document establishes a set standard for how to build these guns. Everything is covered from what testing needs to be done, down to the thickness of the chrome in the barrel. Only two companies have this actual document. They are Colt and FNH.

2. Companies that follow a set standard (meaning TDP) are going to build a better gun and assemble it properly (as they have a guideline to follow).

3. Companies that do not follow these specs are going to follow a "standard" that puts the most money in their pocket and allows them to build a gun as cheaply as possible.


Consumers should treat AR manufacturers the same way they do used car salesmen (Trust, but verify). If you read the thread I linked about being a informed consumer, it gives you all the details you need to call up gun manufacturers and validate that they are doing what they say their are doing.





C4

and you have no proof of any of that... Colts TDP is Colts TDP. You are clueless as to what the TDP states, as are many people who have never seen it. I HAVE. I have inspected as per it, I have read it and I know what I am talking about.

There are THOUSANDS of Soldiers who HATE their M4s and M16A2s. Dont give me this God Blessed the Colt TDP BS crap. The Colt TDP is a BARE MINIMUM CHEAPEST BIDDER COLLECTION OF INSPECTION POINTS. To say a Colt made as per their TDP is top of the line is laughable. You must exceed it by many factors to get to that point. There are 1970s service rifles that still pass the TDP inspections...and I wouldn't use those to as anything more than display.

Much of the TDP is written by Colt for Colt proclaiming Colt is good.
BCM has a DIFFERENT TDP than Colt. No matter how much you want to and wish BCM was the same its NOT. Its made up of guys like me who copied or just remember what the TDP is and made a similar build spec.

This whole "build to a standard" BS is another salesman's gimmick.

Many Many Many brand new fresh from the factory Colt M4A1s delivered to the Military SUCK. they must be tweaked and worked on before issue. Some are sent RIGHT BACK.

Your TDP argument is again...FLAWED by the reality of the situation as is 90% of the rest of the stuff you have posted here...:rolleyes:

shooterfpga
12-10-2011, 4:35 PM
http://smpdigitaledition.com/publication/?i=89017

skip to page 22 of 40. Turner's Outdoors is a local southern california gun shop with many locations throughout southern california.

again the arguement was not that local dealers do not sell them. but that del ton directly does not. anything you want thats not ca compliant can be sold here through a middle man or through such good dealers as turners making it available.

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 4:38 PM
and you have no proof of any of that... Colts TDP is Colts TDP. You are clueless as to what the TDP states, as are many people who have never seen it. I HAVE. I have inspected as per it, I have read it and I know what I am talking about.

Yep, sure do. I can pick up the phone and get detail specs on any thing I want.

There are THOUSANDS of Soldiers who HATE their M4s and M16A2s. Dont give me this God Blessed the Colt TDP BS crap. The Colt TDP is a BARE MINIMUM CHEAPEST BIDDER COLLECTION OF INSPECTION POINTS. To say a Colt made as per their TDP is top of the line is laughable. You must exceed it by many factors to get to that point. There are 1970s service rifles that still pass the TDP inspections...and I wouldn't use those to as anything more than display.

An AR, M16 or M4 is ONLY as good as the Preventative Maintenance done to it. In the Military system, PM's do not get done and parts do not get replaced. This leads to a less than reliable weapon.

The TDP is basic level for how a fighting gun is to be built. Can you tell us which companies exceed the TDP specs???? Which components? Proven via what methods??

Much of the TDP is written by Colt for Colt proclaiming Colt is good.
BCM has a DIFFERENT TDP than Colt. No matter how much you want to and wish BCM was the same its NOT. Its made up of guys like me who copied or just remember what the TDP is and made a similar build spec.

Yes and the Govt accepted it. So that makes it official. It is true that BCM does not have the official TDP, but they know a lot of what it says and do one of the best jobs in the industry in following it.

This whole "build to a standard" BS is another salesman's gimmick.

What is a better alternative?? Let's hear what is superior. Educate us. ;)

Many Many Many brand new fresh from the factory Colt M4A1s delivered to the Military SUCK. they must be tweaked and worked on before issue. Some are sent RIGHT BACK.

"Tweaked?" Is that your professional opinion?? You do work in the firearms industry as a professional armorer or engineer for a AR manufacturer right??

Your TDP argument is again...FLAWED by the reality of the situation as is 90% of the rest of the stuff you have posted here...:rolleyes:

It isn't my argument. It is the US Govt's. You can stomp your feet, ***** and moan that you know better, but where the rubber hits the road, it is king.

So where are the documents from DTI verifying that they say what they do?? I posted a link to BCM's documents.

Trust, but verify. ;)




C4

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 4:39 PM
again the arguement was not that local dealers do not sell them. but that del ton directly does not. anything you want thats not ca compliant can be sold here through a middle man or through such good dealers as turners making it available.

Right. So if there was no dealer stocking them in your area and you wanted to order directly, you couldn't. How does that fly around here????



C4

comblock
12-10-2011, 5:00 PM
Rifle parts kit. California gun owners are resourceful in obtaining firearms/firearms parts that would normally not be obtainable due to the manufacturer not knowledgeable in the current firearms laws of california. But once their marketing dept sees the potential of profitability in the california market like other companies(e.g. arsenal, colt, among others) then i would bet they will directly make a ca compliant AR.

edit: break out the whiteboard and start the SWOT analysis.

C4
I am providing you one customer feedback of what one california customer wants. a low cost AR-15, doesnt really care about mil-spec, or if it can be run hard in a carbine course.

If you want to cram a one-size-fits-all AR-15 business model, then that's your business. Good luck to you.

1lostinspace
12-10-2011, 5:35 PM
All Delton I have ever shot shoot sub with hand loads and 1-2 MOA with most military ball. They might not be the best out there but shoot reliably and accurately.

Cyc Wid It
12-10-2011, 5:57 PM
Apparently Delton gets a pass unlike Arsenal because their products are cheap.

hornswaggled
12-10-2011, 5:58 PM
I just need a low priced beater upper. After reading diesel's arguments, I'm definitely going to be more open to Delton than I would have been otherwise, thanks.

For the record if someone kicked my door down weilding a Delton, I'd probably be just as nervous as if he had a BCM.

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 6:00 PM
Rifle parts kit. California gun owners are resourceful in obtaining firearms/firearms parts that would normally not be obtainable due to the manufacturer not knowledgeable in the current firearms laws of california. But once their marketing dept sees the potential of profitability in the california market like other companies(e.g. arsenal, colt, among others) then i would bet they will directly make a ca compliant AR.

edit: break out the whiteboard and start the SWOT analysis.

C4
I am providing you one customer feedback of what one california customer wants. a low cost AR-15, doesnt really care about mil-spec, or if it can be run hard in a carbine course.

If you want to cram a one-size-fits-all AR-15 business model, then that's your business. Good luck to you.


To be honest, we have no interest in cheap AR's, gun parts, optics or ammo. We sell products to the DoD, Federal Govt, State and Local LE and defensive minded consumers. These people typically do not want "cheap" and they DO want Mil-Spec.

Knowing what my CA customers typically buy from us, I would say they don't either.



C4

mrvash
12-10-2011, 6:01 PM
Apparently Delton gets a pass unlike Arsenal because their products are cheap.

I've thought about that too, when Colt released their CA friendly AR's just recently.

Noah3683
12-10-2011, 7:41 PM
I have 2 mutual friends that go shooting with us as a group on a regular basis. They both have Del-ton's. They have at least a few failures each every single time we go out. The 3rd friend has a basic Spike's, not a problem yet. My DD's, BCM, Sabre Defence have never had a single issue. My noveske had short stroke issues with a few rounds of tula that was it. Those issues were also within the first 100 rds ever fired out of it. Until I see some torture tests of some sort, or better yet these uppers work properly first hand, no thank you for me. Even if I did see it happen, I would likely skip them for simply better workmanship. Anyone saying they are made just as well as a DD or BCM needs to lay off the "my brand is just as good or better for less" crack pipe. The only thing I can say positive for del-ton is they are pretty accurate WHEN they function

smle-man
12-10-2011, 8:31 PM
Nothing gets a discussion going like 'Delton'. Every single time I take mine out it works.

NorCalRedneck
12-10-2011, 9:07 PM
Nothing gets a discussion going like 'Delton'. Every single time I take mine out it works.

Yeah nobody likes to admit that they paid hundreds of dollars more for an upper that functions just as well as a Delton. :p

Noah3683
12-10-2011, 9:22 PM
Yeah nobody likes to admit that they paid hundreds of dollars more for an upper that functions just as well as a Delton. :p

Yeah because you know that $462 shipped del-ton upper with the chrome lined 1:9 twist option is hundreds of dollars cheaper than a more proven spikes upper that's $475-$499 shipped :rolleyes: PSA offers a much better budget option $394 shipped, or the hammer forged middy for $464 shipped. Doesn't sound like a del-ton upper is hundreds cheaper to me. Maybe than a Noveske, or DD with rail already on it... but there are still better deals out there than del-ton. I sincerely think I'd pay that whoppin, wallet crushing extra $2 for the PSA CHF middy with FN barrel.

Big O
12-10-2011, 9:24 PM
For an entry level AR, it's hard to beat Turner's deal on the M&P 15 Sport. $599 if you catch the sale and it's a complete rifle with a decent trigger, adjustable rear sight, etc. It will get you started just fine.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk.

racky
12-10-2011, 10:53 PM
too many haters and mall ninja's in this thread.

Noah3683
12-10-2011, 11:06 PM
Love how if someone decides to pay more for better quality they are automatically mall ninjas. Its like being able to afford a GT500 or Camaro SS vs those that buy the v6 model and claim the car is just as good except less power but it was way cheaper. We'll just ignore that aside from the body almost every other component is inferior, not just the engine

shooterfpga
12-10-2011, 11:25 PM
if you want a no frills upper its a good deal, but when you start adding things, it comes out the same price. so really, it depends where you wanna end up at.

Noah3683
12-10-2011, 11:52 PM
The converse is just because something is priced more, there is an inherent quality in the product. There are departments within departments in a company that all they do is set prices, find ways to market a product with a limited marketing budget that gets the people going. Some are more aggressive and use some sort of guerilla marketing - an out of this world, wow stunt, put it on media such as youtube in the hopes that it goes viral. For example, the filthy 14 with 40000 rounds without a hiccup stunt. Yeah, you been had, you just didnt know it.

edit: dont get me started on the marketing strategy of percieved quality, the intangible assest that gets flinged around like everyone knows what quality is.

Well since i have PERSONALLY seen not on a video but in live action....... 2 different deltons fail on multiple occasions vs my uber expensive daniel defense being absolutely flawless. I cant see how i have been had. Ignorance is bliss i suppose. And as stated above, add in that rail and the delton is more than the $749 ddm4v5 uppers

railroader
12-11-2011, 12:12 AM
Yeah because you know that $462 shipped del-ton upper with the chrome lined 1:9 twist option is hundreds of dollars cheaper than a more proven spikes upper that's $475-$499 shipped :rolleyes: PSA offers a much better budget option $394 shipped, or the hammer forged middy for $464 shipped. Doesn't sound like a del-ton upper is hundreds cheaper to me. Maybe than a Noveske, or DD with rail already on it... but there are still better deals out there than del-ton. I sincerely think I'd pay that whoppin, wallet crushing extra $2 for the PSA CHF middy with FN barrel.

Actually just last black friday complete del-ton chrome lined kits were going for around $430 minus a rear sight. I have built 2 of their kits a couple of years ago and I haven't had any issues period. And I will admit they haven't been to any carbine classes or any wars in the middle east but everyone I know with ar rifles hasn't been there either.
This thread actually reminds me of threads on forums where someone will ask about a certain handgun. Next thing you know there all these posts about you need a glock like its gods gift to handgunners. If you get some thing other than a glock then you are getting a POS that is going to break, isn't reliable you know on and on. The same thing happens every time some one asks about Del-ton. Here we go again. My del-tons run fine and are accurate so whatever.

freonr22
12-11-2011, 12:16 AM
Actually just last black friday complete del-ton chrome lined kits were going for around $430 minus a rear sight. I have built 2 of their kits a couple of years ago and I haven't had any issues period. And I will admit they haven't been to any carbine classes or any wars in the middle east but everyone I know with ar rifles hasn't been there either.
This thread actually reminds me of threads on forums where someone will ask about a certain handgun. Next thing you know there all these posts about you need a glock like its gods gift to handgunners. If you get some thing other than a glock then you are getting a POS that is going to break, isn't reliable you know on and on. The same thing happens every time some one asks about Del-ton. Here we go again. My del-tons run fine and are accurate so whatever.

you are right


1911>glock

/thread


:D

rojocorsa
12-11-2011, 1:39 AM
Apparently Delton gets a pass unlike Arsenal because their products are cheap.

I noticed that too.

I've thought about that too, when Colt released their CA friendly AR's just recently.


Colt was "black listed" though, Arsenal and Del-Taco weren't. Wouldn't this make Colt's situation a little different?

MrPlink
12-11-2011, 3:33 AM
Yeah because you know that $462 shipped del-ton upper with the chrome lined 1:9 twist option is hundreds of dollars cheaper than a more proven spikes upper that's $475-$499 shipped :rolleyes: PSA offers a much better budget option $394 shipped, or the hammer forged middy for $464 shipped. Doesn't sound like a del-ton upper is hundreds cheaper to me. Maybe than a Noveske, or DD with rail already on it... but there are still better deals out there than del-ton. I sincerely think I'd pay that whoppin, wallet crushing extra $2 for the PSA CHF middy with FN barrel.

"more proven" ?

Ok, I'll bite. Wheres the proof?

mrvash
12-11-2011, 7:56 AM
I noticed that too.




Colt was "black listed" though, Arsenal and Del-Taco weren't. Wouldn't this make Colt's situation a little different?

Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure what "black listed" means. However, I thought Arsenal is on the CA's ban list, too so they released a California model, just like what Colt did.

-hanko
12-11-2011, 7:58 AM
too many haters and mall ninja's in this thread.
:confused:
I thought most here considered themselves as Tier I Operators ;)

-hanko

grant22
12-11-2011, 8:19 AM
Here's some thoughts and observations:

1) The OP is long gone

2) Apparently the search button doesn't work anymore. I've only been a member here for 4 months but can honestly say, "Delton again?"

3) How about a basic search gets performed before asking AND if you're gonna ask about 'which weapon,' at least state your needs and goals. If the OP doesn't state what his needs and goals are, why even respond.

4) Can't Delton be compared to the car market? Maybe call it a Hyundai (the current ones). It'll get the job done at a great price point, but may lack that little bit of polish, fit, and finish that maybe a Honda has. Does that make it bad? Absolutely not. There's something for everyone.

5) Let's be honest, most of us here have AR's for the fun, not the home defense scenario, not law enforcement, and you're probably not a SEAL. If my assumption is true, then I think most of us would have just as much fun at the range with a Drlton as the next guy (as long as you're not trying to 'turn heads').

6) (Edit) In my job, I've been to MANY classes (not firearm related). Being an instructor doesn't mean poop, and attending a lot of classes doesn't mean poop. Teaching and attending doesn't make anyone an expert.

7) (Edit) I almost want to run out and buy a Delton right now just to go see and prove that it works just fine for what 99% of us are doing with our AR.

Now excuse me, I'm going to go turn heads at the range with my P22 and then enter it in the "coolest weapon" thread.

JAGGUY
12-11-2011, 9:01 AM
7) I almost want to run out and buy a Delton right now just to go see and prove that it works just fine.

Did that a year ago. Works fine.

-hanko
12-11-2011, 9:08 AM
Here's some thoughts and observations:

1) The OP is long gone

2) Apparently the search button doesn't work anymore

3) How about a basic search gets performed before asking AND if you're gonna ask about 'which weapon,' at least state your needs and goals. If the OP doesn't state what his needs and goals are, why even respond.

4) Can't Delton be compared to the car market? Maybe call it a Hyundai (the current ones). It'll get the job done at a great price point, but may lack that little bit of polish, fit, and finish that maybe a Honda has. Does that make it bad? Absolutely not. There's something for everyone.

5) Let's be honest, most of us here have AR's for the fun, not the home defense scenario, not law enforcement, and you're probably not a SEAL. If my assumption is true, then I think most of us would have just as much fun at the range as the next guy (as long as you're not trying to 'turn heads').

6) In my job, I've been to MANY classes. Being an instructor doesn't mean poop, and attending a lot of classes doesn't mean poop.

7) I almost want to run out and buy a Delton right now just to go see and prove that it works just fine.
1. Correct, and his question wasn't answered.

2. If the search button DID work (and posters actually tried searching) 75% of threads here would disappear.;)

3. Ain't gonna' happen. See #2 above.

4. Great comparison.

5. Given this board, the "turn heads" part at the end is a little ironic. Beyond that, it's definitely important to know where your weapon is on the chart. There seems to a lot of inadequacy expressed here, so maybe this will help... http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1263571_Am_I_Tier1_.html :)

6. You take the good from each class and toss out the fud.

-hanko

dieselpower
12-11-2011, 10:37 AM
Yep, sure do. I can pick up the phone and get detail specs on any thing I want. Then do it and post the differences between a Delton and a BCM. I will then drop some knowledge on you on how every difference is worthless when you look at the overall rifles.


An AR, M16 or M4 is ONLY as good as the Preventative Maintenance done to it. In the Military system, PM's do not get done and parts do not get replaced. This leads to a less than reliable weapon. So you now admit Colts TDP is worthless unless the PROPER assembly and building spec is used... So it isn't DTi's fault when a HOME BUILT rifle fails... Thats a far cry from your last regurgitation of Pats "built to a standard" battlecry:rolleyes:


The TDP is basic level for how a fighting gun is to be built. Can you tell us which companies exceed the TDP specs???? Which components? Proven via what methods?? Yes I can....and No I will not. It would again spark a debate about how far from spec can you go before the spec is not followed. You fail to understand "better than spec" is NOT to spec = failed inspection. Every one of the rifles would fail a Colt TDP inspection for improper steel, improper method, improper torque, non-standard design....ect.. a BCM rifle is one that would FAIL a Colt TDP inspection. OMG did DieselPower just say a BCM isnt as good as a Colt? No he didnt. He said if I was back in the Armory and a crate of BCMs came in they would be sent back for failing to comply with the TDP I was charged with using. That doesn't mean they are bad. and once again you have strayed from the "built to a standard " buzz phrase. You need another Pat injection to get those salesman juices flowing.


Yes and the Govt accepted it. So that makes it official. It is true that BCM does not have the official TDP, but they know a lot of what it says and do one of the best jobs in the industry in following it. The Government accepted a contract for toilet paper that doubles as 220 grit sandpaper...is it hanging in your bathroom? So close enough to TDP and Spec is good enough RIGHT? Please I need you to again post you agree with that. If I can show you a DTi has the capacity to have that same variance in TDP as BCM, would you accept DTi as a good civilian rifle? My guess is No you would not,... because with your approval of DTi, you would lose face with the mall ninja crowd you sell too.. therefor you can NEVER support, accept or agree even when pure fact and science prove you wrong. A chevy can NOT be as good as a Ford... its not possible to a Chevy buyer. If a Chevy salesman stated that a Ford was as good, he would not be part of the "in crowd, good-Ole-boys club"


What is a better alternative?? Let's hear what is superior. Educate us. ;)
What role? My 10/22 will kick your BCMs butt in recoil. My SKS can shatter more bricks than your .223. The AK vs AR debate is 1 thread over...go look there too. You base much of your argument on passing a carbine course, yet Sigs, AKs, HKs, Springfields and a host of other rifles do not have the same specs as a BCM yet function BETTER. I can build a Vulcan/Hesse to pass a carbine course. You keep forgetting that most of your argument is based on building, not on parts. A Sig is NOT mil-spec. A Sig can't pass a Colt TDP. A Sig would fail the mall ninja M4C RobS "Chart" everyone so likes to hold up..... OMG did DieselPower just say one rifle is better than another... No I didn't. I said the parts FAIL a mall ninjas idea of what is best.



"Tweaked?" Is that your professional opinion?? You do work in the firearms industry as a professional armorer or engineer for a AR manufacturer right??Worked, not work. Those days are done. I now spend my off time trying to unbrainwash professional guys like you. I have worked with the M16 family of firearms since 1984. I cared little for the firearm up till 1994... you should know why. My knowledge is based in Military service and the years afterward watching the civilian market grow and also being part of the ebb & flow of that civilian market. Yes When a Gunny tells me, "we just got 40 more A2s that have that same gas tube missing the nub" and I spend the next week replacing gas tubes "Tweaked" is a good word to use... so the phrase, "built to a standard" makes me laugh my butt off. If you people applied your hatred evenly and justly to all manufacturers Colt would be the last thing you would recommend, and any one comparing their product to a Colt would be like comparing your restaurant's food to dog food. Civilian Colts are so far outside of mil-spec or the Military TDP it isnt even funny...yet Colts pass a carbine course...umm wonder why.. shouldn't a Rifle that fails "built to a standard" NOT be good?? Laughable.


It isn't my argument. It is the US Govt's. You can stomp your feet, ***** and moan that you know better, but where the rubber hits the road, it is king.
Its the lowest bidder. the Mil-specs are written to say they are right, not to tell them how to do it right. If I invent a thing, then the Military buys that thing, I must create a mil-standard to build that thing because 10000000 of those things need to be the same. That in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM says my way is the best way. You need a course in understanding mil-specs and Mil-standards...its not about being right or being the best...its about being THE SAME AS.

So where are the documents from DTI verifying that they say what they do?? I posted a link to BCM's documents.

Trust, but verify. ;)
LOL.. that cute considering you only trust what guys tell you and I know for a fact have never verified any of their claims, for if you did, you would be on my side of the table...not theirs. DTi is a web-based seller who has an FFL-07. They sell parts from other vendors. If you question YHM's QA...go ask YHM, not DTi.



C4

Please post all the differences in the specs. I'll go over them for you. I've done it in countless other threads and the guy who I am showing just goes away after realizing he can not dispute the facts or the science BUT by acknowledging I am right will lose face with their peers... go ahead make my day.

grant22
12-11-2011, 10:52 AM
Mil Spec is just a 'standard,' not a level of awesomeness. All it means is Delton's mil spec AR and BCM's mil spec AR meet the same 'minimums.'

It's nothing special, just a minimum standard and allows interchangeability. I actually don't pay attention until a firearm mfr states 'mil spec +' meaning they are going above and beyond, and even then, it wouldn't do 99% of us any more service since we're not kicking in doors and taking out the bad guy. (well, I take out bad guys, they're just in the form of paper,tho).

I wish we could all get a little more real about all this. It's not even worth referring to anyone as a mall ninja or fanboy since it's all been over used and watered down. But realistically, I gotta agree with Diesel Power and say that this is all a bunch of hype. The question is, who has bought into the hype?

C4iGrant
12-11-2011, 11:59 AM
Please post all the differences in the specs. I'll go over them for you. I've done it in countless other threads and the guy who I am showing just goes away after realizing he can not dispute the facts or the science BUT by acknowledging I am right will lose face with their peers... go ahead make my day.

Just so I got my facts straight, I will list them:

1. The TDP is worthless.
2. Colt and FNH do not build good weapons.
3. Building a gun to a known spec is a stupid idea.
4. Your time in the USMC was partially spent in the arms room
"tweaking" gas tubes into FNH built M16A2's.
5. You worked with Colt products in the USMC.
6. All parts in ALL AR's are all the same quality.
7. All AR manufacturers assemble them the same way.
8. On page one of this thread, you stated that DTI is cheaper than BCM because they do not inspect all their parts.
9. On page four, you stated that BCM and DTI are equal.
10. You do not work in the firearms industry.
11. You are not a certified armorer.
12. You have never attended a Pat Rogers Shooting School and have never looked at his book of broken parts, but are certain that it is either made up or incorrect.
13. DTI has never been able to produce documentation validating the claims they have posted on their website (that they HPT, MPI, use CMV and 158 steel).
14. G&R Tactical (a Disabled Veteran and Veteran owned company) ONLY sells to Mall Ninja's. So the the contracts we have won or been awarded to USN EOD/NSW, USAF PJ's, Various SWAT teams across the US were all fake.
15. You promote the Military Maintenance manuals in your sig line, but do not view weapons built to the Military spec to be any good.


How's that? Pretty close to how you view things so far in this thread?

For the record, you are talking to someone that was a Naval Cryptologist, DoD Contractor working in Engineering Departments for USN SPAWAR, USAF C2ISR and AOC Weapon System. G&R Tactical has been in business for over 10yrs building and fixing AR's. I have multiple Armorer Certs and do consulting for some of the largest names in the firearms industry (product development, resolving problems and marketing). I have thousands of hours logged with the best firearms instructors in the US and am a Vickers Regional Firearms Instructor.

I list my background for no other reason so that you can stop the D*CK measuring contest. It doesn't promote your point of view and really makes you look like an angry old man.

Someone wise once told me that one should always try and look at things through the other persons eyes. So you like cheap AR parts and do not put any value in companies that follow the TDP (or attempt to as they are not issued the TDP). Parts are parts in essence. No one should bet their lives on a gun that has not been tested for at least one thousand rounds.


From my experience of repairing broken AR's, attending firearms training classes and talking with professional instructors, AR's are not created equal. We see far more problems and broken parts out of companies that do not follow the TDP than ones that do. This is why we have the opinion we do.
I do agree 100% that any gun that you are willing to bet your life on SHOULD be tested for 500-1,000rds (no matter who made it).

Since we have found at least one thing to agree on, I will stop my posting in this thread as I don't think we will have any more to agree on than that one thing. ;)




C4

rojocorsa
12-11-2011, 12:22 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but I'm not quite sure what "black listed" means. However, I thought Arsenal is on the CA's ban list, too so they released a California model, just like what Colt did.

I was trying to make a pun. By that I mean that in the beginning, Colt was put on the ban list which meant you could not have one whereas both Del-Ton and Arsenal* were not on the list, but they chose to not ship here anyway.

*Well yes, there were some Arsenal variants on the list, but they still didn't ship the other ones that were not originally on the list. None the less, someone with common sense must have lit up a fire under Arsenal's collective ***, because now they do ship here "officially." Before, their distributors were technically not supposed to ship to CA FFLs, but it happened anyway.

Can't speak for Del-Ton other than what it says on their website. I'm not really interested in their rifles, so I've never looked into it.

I hope this clear up what I was trying to say. :)

</off topic>

hornswaggled
12-11-2011, 1:40 PM
lol c4. I was in the DoD contracting, systems engineering telemetry & IT field and those people are some of the biggest blowhards in the entire country.

C4iGrant
12-11-2011, 1:51 PM
lol c4. I was in the DoD contracting, systems engineering telemetry & IT field and those people are some of the biggest blowhards in the entire country.


I did not work in either of those fields. I helped the Military find bad people and then kill them.



C4

Ding126
12-11-2011, 2:04 PM
Incorrect. Del-Ton cannot even meet the ENTRY LEVEL SPEC (TDP). If they are not following this set standard, what standard are they following??? The answer is the one that saves them the most money.

I have no idea who this "salesman" is that receives "kickbacks" from BCM. We are Distributor for BCM. Could we have a shop full of Del-Ton products tomorrow? Sure could, but we CHOOSE not to. Why? Because when our customers ask me if they can bet their life on this gun, I have to tell them the truth.
My life and the lives of my loved ones are worth MORE than an entry level AR made by a company that focuses not on quality, but on cost. YMMV.


Every company has a product that fails for breaks. Anything made by man can and will fail. Companies that use higher quality products and assemble their products properly have a much better chance of them being reliable.
I have zero idea where you are getting these return rate numbers from. My guess is that you are just making them up.
There is a lot more that goes into quality parts than just "inspecting" them. First, you MUST order a quality part. This means the right materials and machined to a spec. Then the part will go through various levels of QC/QA from that manufacturer. When the part finally arrives at BCM, they have jigs (go no go gauges) that they run parts through to further ensure that the company they bought them from did their job (trust, but verify).

When discussing a product, please at least have FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of said item. It appears you don't even own a BCM so really know nothing about what you are talking about.




I guess it depends on what the definition of "fine" is. For me, the gun would have to survive 3-5 carbine schools a year (every year). This will break most low quality AR's.

I am sure though that if your AR just sits in the safe or is shot S L O W F I R E off a bench at your local gun club (as they won't allow you to shoot faster than what a bolt can fire) for a grand total of 100rds a month, then yes, use whatever AR you want (as it really does not matter).


If you ever get a chance, take a Pat Rogers carbine class. Ask Pat to see his book of all the broken AR parts and guns in it. Guess which AR manufacturers fill the pages? The ones that don't follow the TDP. This is commonly referred to as a CLUE!





C4

^^^ This

Noah3683
12-11-2011, 2:49 PM
Just so I got my facts straight, I will list them:

1. The TDP is worthless.
2. Colt and FNH do not build good weapons.
3. Building a gun to a known spec is a stupid idea.
4. Your time in the USMC was partially spent in the arms room
"tweaking" gas tubes into FNH built M16A2's.
5. You worked with Colt products in the USMC.
6. All parts in ALL AR's are all the same quality.
7. All AR manufacturers assemble them the same way.
8. On page one of this thread, you stated that DTI is cheaper than BCM because they do not inspect all their parts.
9. On page four, you stated that BCM and DTI are equal.
10. You do not work in the firearms industry.
11. You are not a certified armorer.
12. You have never attended a Pat Rogers Shooting School and have never looked at his book of broken parts, but are certain that it is either made up or incorrect.
13. DTI has never been able to produce documentation validating the claims they have posted on their website (that they HPT, MPI, use CMV and 158 steel).
14. G&R Tactical (a Disabled Veteran and Veteran owned company) ONLY sells to Mall Ninja's. So the the contracts we have won or been awarded to USN EOD/NSW, USAF PJ's, Various SWAT teams across the US were all fake.
15. You promote the Military Maintenance manuals in your sig line, but do not view weapons built to the Military spec to be any good.


How's that? Pretty close to how you view things so far in this thread?

For the record, you are talking to someone that was a Naval Cryptologist, DoD Contractor working in Engineering Departments for USN SPAWAR, USAF C2ISR and AOC Weapon System. G&R Tactical has been in business for over 10yrs building and fixing AR's. I have multiple Armorer Certs and do consulting for some of the largest names in the firearms industry (product development, resolving problems and marketing). I have thousands of hours logged with the best firearms instructors in the US and am a Vickers Regional Firearms Instructor.

I list my background for no other reason so that you can stop the D*CK measuring contest. It doesn't promote your point of view and really makes you look like an angry old man.

Someone wise once told me that one should always try and look at things through the other persons eyes. So you like cheap AR parts and do not put any value in companies that follow the TDP (or attempt to as they are not issued the TDP). Parts are parts in essence. No one should bet their lives on a gun that has not been tested for at least one thousand rounds.


From my experience of repairing broken AR's, attending firearms training classes and talking with professional instructors, AR's are not created equal. We see far more problems and broken parts out of companies that do not follow the TDP than ones that do. This is why we have the opinion we do.
I do agree 100% that any gun that you are willing to bet your life on SHOULD be tested for 500-1,000rds (no matter who made it).

Since we have found at least one thing to agree on, I will stop my posting in this thread as I don't think we will have any more to agree on than that one thing. ;)




C4
Grant, you have to forgive Diesel. We have to deal with the I know everything attitude daily. Trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of breath. For the record he also not too long ago stated than any AR-15 that isn't a Colt is just a cheap clone or something right along those lines...

Edit: found it: from a BCM VS Noveske thread its either a Colt...or its not.

your quest for the best "name" is flawed...A BCM and a Nov...are both CLONES OF A COLT....

so you need to get a OLL Colt.

Either that or get a Non-Mil-spec AR15, like a Sun Devil, a Mega, a LaRue....

NorCalRedneck
12-11-2011, 3:08 PM
A couple of you guys have been comparing cars to guns. The problem with the analogy of a Hyundai vs. a Honda is that they are two completely different cars manufactured by two completely different companies.

You are comparing two totally different cars to guns that are exactly the same design, just manufactured by two different companies.

grant22
12-11-2011, 3:18 PM
How is that different than comparing Del-ton to BCM? They are 2 different weapons from 2 different companies. Unless you are saying they source their parts from the same place? Supposedly, the only thing in common would be geometric shapes and dimensions.

But even then, I'll have to stand by my concept: Every type of product has different manufacturers building directly competing items at different price points.

This way, someone with little cash can buy an AR15. Someone with a lot more cash can buy a really nice one (probably doesn't need it, but that's not the point).

I don't see how the comparison doesn't apply.

C4iGrant
12-11-2011, 3:57 PM
Grant, you have to forgive Diesel. We have to deal with the I know everything attitude daily. Trying to convince him otherwise is a waste of breath. For the record he also not too long ago stated than any AR-15 that isn't a Colt is just a cheap clone or something right along those lines...

Edit: found it: from a BCM VS Noveske thread

LOL, thanks. I have received several PM's and E-mails stating the same.


I have found SEVERAL threads where Mr. DP stated that he ONLY uses parts from BCM, LMT & Colt or that if you want a service grade AR, you buy a Colt.

I am fine with people liking a certain thing, but you gotta walk the walk! If you argue for pages that parts are parts, but won't use those parts in your gun, then there is a word for that. It called being a hypocrite.




C4

NorCalRedneck
12-11-2011, 4:09 PM
How is that different than comparing Del-ton to BCM? They are 2 different weapons from 2 different companies. Unless you are saying they source their parts from the same place? Supposedly, the only thing in common would be geometric shapes and dimensions.

But even then, I'll have to stand by my concept: Every type of product has different manufacturers building directly competing items at different price points.

This way, someone with little cash can buy an AR15. Someone with a lot more cash can buy a really nice one (probably doesn't need it, but that's not the point).

I don't see how the comparison doesn't apply.

I don't see how the comparison does apply. They are two completely different designs of cars. The comparison would be fine if Hyundai and Honda manufactured the same exact design of car (say an Accord) but they don't so the analogy doesn't work.

dieselpower
12-11-2011, 4:11 PM
Just so I got my facts straight, I will list them:

1. The TDP is worthless. The TDP is the TDP. My Microwaves service manual is NOT a representation of quality. You are confused. I never said the TDP was worthless, only that YOUR understanding of it was. many many many rifles FAIL upon initial inspection.
2. Colt and FNH do not build good weapons. They build great weapons...they do not build the BEST weapon nor are any of the weapons they build the Gold Standard.
3. Building a gun to a known spec is a stupid idea. No worshiping that known spec is a stupid idea.
4. Your time in the USMC was partially spent in the arms room
"tweaking" gas tubes into FNH built M16A2's. Among other things, yeah. I dont care if you want to make fun of my military service. It is what it is. I did what I was told. Can I now mock your tour of service? How about a VA cripple joke? I am sure you know some good ones.
5. You worked with Colt products in the USMC. Colt, Sig, HK, Springfield,...
6. All parts in ALL AR's are all the same quality. Never said that. In fact I have been saying the opposite. A Manufacturer can not be held responsible for parts the home builder uses...as YOU think. You blame DTi for the errors made by the guy who builds with a DTi. You need to re-think your reading education level.
7. All AR manufacturers assemble them the same way. :rolleyes: no comment.
8. On page one of this thread, you stated that DTI is cheaper than BCM because they do not inspect all their parts. That is one of the reasons SOME parts are cheaper. Whats the difference between a CMT BCG and a CMT BCG that was tested? Among other things you save money on manufacturing by not testing it. By relying on your manufacturing process to control your quality you can offer the same part for less. The BCGs are the exact same....
9. On page four, you stated that BCM and DTI are equal. Yup, they can be. I can also build a BCM using plastic made in china parts...and when that BCM fails I can post how crappy and low grade BCMs are... RIGHT?
10. You do not work in the firearms industry. Correct. I'm a user, not a pusher.
11. You are not a certified armorer. Debatable and I would agree with you on that since I do not believe in lifetime credentials. I dont care who or what you do. Staying current in your field means you must continually learn. I do believe I know more than many people I meet who say they are a Certified Armorer. I recently asked a AR15 Armorer /Instructor what he thought of the new salt bath coatings... he told me there were better ways to remove carbon. I tried to explain what salt baths were and he told me I was wrong. Salt baths are used to remove fouling in bores. Then he went on selling his stuff to the other guys at his table ignoring me. I am sure certified means something to you. It means about as much as TDP to me.
12. You have never attended a Pat Rogers Shooting School and have never looked at his book of broken parts, but are certain that it is either made up or incorrect. Because I challenge his views he wouldn't allow me in his class if I even wanted to. He DNTs (do not train) anyone who doesn't bow to him. His statements on this were clear in his thread on AR15.com. That level of ego isnt for me. No I have never taken one, nor do I plan to (even if the entire event was pre-paid.) I don't work in that industry, I see no value in that training for me. I have read what he has said and its clear he has no faith in anything other than himself. Therefore anything he says is suspect as garbage in my mind. I don't care how many people worship you or what documents you write. When your view of yourself is larger than the topic, you have lost your way. I have zero faith in that book. Pat can't be wrong, just ask him. Can I be wrong about that book, sure I can. The fact remains it can't be proven since he is the sole source of that book. I will say this, his findings do NOT match what I see or what others see. Many will not challenge him on this as I do. I don't fear ridicule or blacklists. I am who I am to a fault.
13. DTI has never been able to produce documentation validating the claims they have posted on their website (that they HPT, MPI, use CMV and 158 steel). DTi isnt a barrel manufacturer. They are an Internet sales website with a 07FFL. BCM found value in testing a Colt 4150CMV barrel, then sending one of their 4150CMV barrels in for testing...TO POST ON-LINE as a sales gimmick. Coke-a-Cola sells Coke-a-Cola. If I test what they sell, then send my Coke-a-Cola in for testing what did I prove? That It proves McDonald's doesn't sell real Coke-a-Cola??? Are you kidding me. DTis vendor tells them its 4150CMV. Thats enough for DTi to state that on their website. Order a barrel and have it tested if you don't. As for me I don't really care 4150CMV is no better than 4140CM for 99% of the shooters in the WORLD and that includes 99% of the Militaries around the world. As seen by the fact only Colt and FN use 4150CMV when selling to the US, no other country and most militaries dont use it.
14. G&R Tactical (a Disabled Veteran and Veteran owned company) ONLY sells to Mall Ninja's. So the the contracts we have won or been awarded to USN EOD/NSW, USAF PJ's, Various SWAT teams across the US were all fake. Thanx for the info...:rolleyes: So a cage code and a contract means everyone who buys from you are EOD qualified and you are qualified to make them qualified since you have a cage code...laughable. I bought some sneakers at Nike..Im a professional ball player now..laughable. I dont care who you sell to or what you sell. I care about what you tell others. Your statements here are 100% false. If you can not handle that... not my problem
15. You promote the Military Maintenance manuals in your sig line, but do not view weapons built to the Military spec to be any good. I value proper training when dealing with a weapon. I dont worship it. Military spec isnt what you think it is. You really need to research mil-standards and mil-specs man. Everytime you make statements like that you make others question your skill-set thereby doing harm to your company. Mil-spec isnt top of the line nor is an item that was built to a mil-spec incapable to be flawed.

How's that? Pretty close to how you view things so far in this thread? Yeah, you are about as close as you can get. I don't expect IT guys to understand manufacturing processes, so i give you credit for trying your best. Good job.

For the record, you are talking to someone that was a Naval Cryptologist, DoD Contractor working in Engineering Departments for USN SPAWAR, USAF C2ISR and AOC Weapon System. G&R Tactical has been in business for over 10yrs building and fixing AR's. I have multiple Armorer Certs and do consulting for some of the largest names in the firearms industry (product development, resolving problems and marketing). I have thousands of hours logged with the best firearms instructors in the US and am a Vickers Regional Firearms Instructor. Good for you. Now just work on the little stuff, like understanding what a mil-standard is and what its role is.

I list my background for no other reason so that you can stop the D*CK measuring contest. It doesn't promote your point of view and really makes you look like an angry old man. I am not angry. I just fight the good fight when I see snobbery BS. I have several graves I visit every few years. Guys who were killed with the types of firearms you say are worthless. If you think because a threat has a DTi roll mark on the side of a firearm, they are no real threat or no real value to your enemy...you have learned nothing. Many of the Soldiers killed are killed with firearm manufacturer in caves. You are so brainwashed by our Commercialized sense of "good", that you can't see the forest through the trees.

Someone wise once told me that one should always try and look at things through the other persons eyes. So you like cheap AR parts and do not put any value in companies that follow the TDP (or attempt to as they are not issued the TDP). Parts are parts in essence. No one should bet their lives on a gun that has not been tested for at least one thousand rounds. Once again you need to go back and re-read my post. Seems with all that training you forgot how understand what you read. About the only thing you got right in this comment was, No one should bet their lives on a gun that has not been tested for at least one thousand rounds. The problem is Colt M4A1s straight from the factory FAIL. Placing your standards on a Colt, its a low grade weapon. You can not even see your flawed logic here. Military M4A1s JAM, break, short stroke and there are many many many guys who have died due to this. there are many many many guys who freaking hate their rifles and drop them to pick up AKs. In your mind does this make Colt=DTi. Please answer me. The Colts are failing. The the DTis are failing. You voiced your views on DTi based on failures in an abusing climate. Please..STOP and THINK. 90% of DTis are HOME BUILT.. think it through man... use that brain... I know you can do it

From my experience of repairing broken AR's, attending firearms training classes and talking with professional instructors, AR's are not created equal. We see far more problems and broken parts out of companies that do not follow the TDP than ones that do. This is why we have the opinion we do.
I do agree 100% that any gun that you are willing to bet your life on SHOULD be tested for 500-1,000rds (no matter who made it). Agreed, but the TDP isnt the problem. You are off the mark and are not looking at the true issue.

Since we have found at least one thing to agree on, I will stop my posting in this thread as I don't think we will have any more to agree on than that one thing. ;)




C4

I am glad you have all the training and take all those courses. It adds to your reputation when dealing with people who place value on that. The problem is guys like me have to battle guys like you since you lack a basic understanding in real life. Your BCM can and will fail. the OPs DTi can and will fail. If both of you work with the firearm long enough to gain trust in it, you both have the SAME chance of that failure.

DTis are good firearms. The person who holds it, who built it, is the wild card.

If you are not capable to get your job done with a DTi, you lack the skills needed to survive combat. You lack a critical aspect of weapons training. /thread

grant22
12-11-2011, 4:14 PM
I see your point, but I still believe the analogy is valid. I'm not here to split hairs or pick the fly crap out of the pepper........so I guess we'll agree to disagree.......I'm not the type of person who's gonna pound my chest until you agree with me.

Can we still be friends? ;)

twitchy
12-11-2011, 4:27 PM
Talked to a riverside county cop today and he said they are actively purchasing ar15s from del-ton. The they must not be too bad.

NorCalRedneck
12-11-2011, 4:28 PM
I see your point, but I still believe the analogy is valid. I'm not here to split hairs or pick the fly crap out of the pepper........so I guess we'll agree to disagree.......I'm not the type of person who's gonna pound my chest until you agree with me.

Can we still be friends? ;)

I guessssssss :D

Cyc Wid It
12-11-2011, 4:36 PM
Talked to a riverside county cop today and he said they are actively purchasing ar15s from del-ton. The they must not be too expensive.

Fixed for you.

maxima
12-11-2011, 4:37 PM
I wouldn't skimp on a rifle if I could pay a little bit more for a proven one.

Which rifle you refer as proven one compared to Del-Ton? Select fire M4/M16 or Civilian Colt/BCM/DD/Noveske/Bushmaster, etc.?:rolleyes:

In civilian usage, which do you see more prevalent being ran hard? You can probably answer your own question. :rolleyes:

If I know, why should I ask you? :rolleyes:Since you apparent know which civilian rifle is proven, why didn't you just answer the question. If you have no idea which one if proven, that is fine.

Diesel and C4 have the answer for you: the rifle tested for about 1,000rds (no matter who made it), not the one you pay little bit more.

Noah3683
12-11-2011, 4:40 PM
Talked to a riverside county cop today and he said they are actively purchasing ar15s from del-ton. The they must not be too bad.

They are under massive budget cuts. I'm surprised they are actively buying anything at all

ILVSMOG
12-11-2011, 4:45 PM
I'm amazed this thread is still going! Must have been a slow weekend for a lot of folks.

I'm not an "operator" or LE or engineer. I'm just a farmer. I have a Del-Ton rifle kit on an 80% lower that lives in my farm truck. I have thousands of rounds through it with little-to-no maintenance and it lives in a crap environment. I have not experienced any failures or problems with it. I also have a LMT rifle as well as a couple others. The LMT is probably a better piece, but I'm pretty sure the coyote I shot last week didn't know that the bullet came out of a "POS Del-Ton". It still died. For what I use that rifle for, it's perfect.

shooterfpga
12-11-2011, 4:46 PM
Talked to a riverside county cop today and he said they are actively purchasing ar15s from del-ton. The they must not be too bad.

how often do they deploy it and what is their budget for new purchases and maintenance.... just because a department buys something doesnt mean its any good. yes, they may require certain specs but when the budget is low that goes out.

NHP1127
12-11-2011, 5:27 PM
Actually just last black friday complete del-ton chrome lined kits were going for around $430 minus a rear sight. I have built 2 of their kits a couple of years ago and I haven't had any issues period. And I will admit they haven't been to any carbine classes or any wars in the middle east but everyone I know with ar rifles hasn't been there either.
This thread actually reminds me of threads on forums where someone will ask about a certain handgun. Next thing you know there all these posts about you need a glock like its gods gift to handgunners. If you get some thing other than a glock then you are getting a POS that is going to break, isn't reliable you know on and on. The same thing happens every time some one asks about Del-ton. Here we go again. My del-tons run fine and are accurate so whatever.
+1. The thread degrades to the M4carbine.net level... except the language used here is not in the toilet.

Noah3683
12-11-2011, 5:52 PM
We are talking EVERYDAY prices. Tons of deals could be found on black Friday for multiple brands.... it's quite a bit different than a PSA upper of the same nature being $80 cheaper, and still $50 cheaper than the black friday deal for that matter when that's PSA's normal price... Seems to me that Del-ton is being argued here as the best deal for a serviceable AR when that isn't true. They are a good deal, but there is still at least equal, many would say better products like the PSA even cheaper

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 7:31 AM
We are talking EVERYDAY prices. Tons of deals could be found on black Friday for multiple brands.... it's quite a bit different than a PSA upper of the same nature being $80 cheaper, and still $50 cheaper than the black friday deal for that matter when that's PSA's normal price... Seems to me that Del-ton is being argued here as the best deal for a serviceable AR when that isn't true. They are a good deal, but there is still at least equal, many would say better products like the PSA even cheaper

and thats the truth.

there are hundreds of sellers out there and deals galore. There are SIG400s going for $699, S&W M&P15s going for $500

you can not let the FUD from snobs hold you back.

C4iGrant
12-12-2011, 9:09 AM
When looking at the reliability of something or if one brand is more reliable than another you have to look at the law of averages. Meaning that if we take 100 BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, LMT rifles and shot them with the same ammo for 10,000rds and then take 100 DTI, RRA, BM, Oly, DPMS rifles and shot them for 10,000rds, which gun would have the fewest malfunctions and broken parts???

Would the companies that follow a standard (like the TDP) do better or would the companies that do not follow this standard (or any standard for that matter) do better??? This is the questions that the consumer has to ask themselves.

Based off my professional experience as a certified armorer (working on THOUSANDS of AR's), the companies that follow the TDP have less problems (malfunctions and broken parts) than companies that do not follow it.

Anything by man can and will break (there are no guarantees). So that means that the bolt in your Colt could snap in half in 300rds and the BM will run for 10,000rds. Following the law of averages though, your odds are much better off with the Colt.



C4

luchador768
12-12-2011, 10:38 AM
Diesel, I get the oposite impression of Pat Rogers from his posts on te other board. In the Filthy 14 thread he states at least 5 times that he doesn't reccomend treating your personal carbine like the 14. He also states that all of his shooting for many years has been on "one way" ranges. He seems humble and very knowledgeable, something that posters in this thread could use IMHO. I have an older Del Ton, and it is worlds away from my BCM and Noveske carbines. I cannot speak to the quality of the newer guns.

Uxi
12-12-2011, 11:17 AM
I played with one of the RIA/Magpul ones at Turners. The action definitely felt a bit crude, but I think there's more than a little... snootyness coming from the high end, which is almost ironic considering how all of us have NFA/California gimped weapons and never have to worry about the stress of full auto much less sandstorms in Iraq or the dust kicked up in 'Stan. One thing that's important to consider WRT military procurement is that they're a minimum standard designed to have military logistics and multiple echelons of maintenance behind it. "Built by the the lowest bidder" doesn't evoke confidence in mil-spec gear, though one should take it more seriously than the airsoft standard. SHTF talk definitely tends towards the mall-ninja'ish side of it, though.

Ultimately that seems to comes down to luxury vs economy like Cadillac vs KIA. In the end, yeah they're both cars and get you from A to B but how comfortable are you getting there and does your Cobalt break down more than a Vette, much less a CTS. :D

I'd consider buying a Del-Ton especially on a really good sale at Turners but gotta say PSA seems to have set the standard for me these days and don't really think you get a quantifiable improvement with BCM or Noveske, though there's undeniable an increasing qualitative improvement that incites the brand snobbery.

I find Grant's vehemence against as interesting as diesel's in defense. Are these based on personal experience specifically with Del-Ton?

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 11:18 AM
Diesel, I get the opposite impression of Pat Rogers from his posts on te other board. In the Filthy 14 thread he states at least 5 times that he doesn't reccomend treating your personal carbine like the 14. He also states that all of his shooting for many years has been on "one way" ranges. He seems humble and very knowledgeable, something that posters in this thread could use IMHO. I have an older Del Ton, and it is worlds away from my BCM and Noveske carbines. I cannot speak to the quality of the newer guns.

couple things.
1) any rifle has the capacity to do what #14 did. The rifle was not really treated badly if you really look at what was done to it. If you get it into your head that you are going to shoot a gun until it breaks, BUT do some basic maintenance along the way... any AR15 will do this. Thats the salesman's gimmick here.

2) Sure doing this to a rifle will result in a costly rifle... that doesn't mean only a certain brand of rifle will do this.

3) I am not saying Pat is a bad guy or that Pat doesn't have a huge amount of knowledge. He does. I am saying you do not tell Pat, "No thats wrong." and expect to stay in the classroom.

4) When I was an Instructor I allowed students (some who were customers mind you not just guys ordered to attend) to challenge my views. I listened and adjusted based on the logic. I also didn't insult people (payers or not) by inventing buzz phrases like "hobbyist", "fakepoint", "C-less" and "lower tier gear."
------While I agree many people who take carbine courses will never use those skills, nor do they need to learn them (IMO), to automatically assume there are two classes of student insults one class. All students are learning the same skill set.
------To mock gear choices even bad ones isn't the way to show people what gear works best. Again I agree there are poor optics out there, but to assume only your gear is the best is flawed. There are dozens of gear choices that are not on the cover of SWAT magazine.
------Pat even said he didn't have much experience with C-mores (one of my choices), yet his pet name for them is "C-less." So his whole outlook is based on a 1st version plastic optic, yet he teaches others and students the entire product line is crap with a mocking pet name.
------This works its way into the market. The tier system is a complete lie because people modify and repair and replace parts themselves. This whole thread is a pissing match because a highly trained Combat Instructor who works for a DoD contractor can't understand a DTi is a home built firearm that can be 1000X better or 1000X worse than a BCM...yet all DTi products are "lower grade". This is all partly Pat Rogers fault and a mess in the AR15 world that should not be there.

C4iGrant
12-12-2011, 11:31 AM
I find Grant's vehemence against as interesting as diesel's in defense. Are these based on personal experience specifically with Del-Ton?


To be totally honest, I don't care if people buy a DTI product or not. I am a facts person and when you tell me that brand A is equal to brand B (and I know they are not), I stand up and say something.

As far as my experience with DTI, I have seen broken parts in them and problem guns that just wouldn't run. Yes, it is true that a lot of users can/will screw up their AR's with their lack of installation knowledge, but the problems I have seen are not related to that.



C4

dieselpower
12-12-2011, 11:56 AM
I find Grant's vehemence against as interesting as diesel's in defense. Are these based on personal experience specifically with Del-Ton?

I don't own nor shoot a DTi. I just disagree with the statement that DTi is low end gear or crap. I agree DTi sells crap...as well as Magpul, LMT, YHM, Troy...ect

Its 100% brand bashing and snobbery. DTi is a web-based store with a 07FFL... nothing more.

Sears is crap, its nothing more than made in china gear. Do you agree with this when Sears sells both high end and low end gear?

My Bosch has a Sears sticker on it...does that sticker make it crap?

When an Industry Professional (or people who tote themselves as Industry Professionals with Sig-lines stating that) bash a brand ...you freaking bet I will step up and defend that brand. Its poor form and bad for the industry.

luchador768
12-12-2011, 12:20 PM
My DTI has a mystery meat 1/9 non-chrome lined barrel, a mystery meat semi auto BCG. Are you saying that is the same as Noveske or BCM, LMT, Colt, DD etc??? I know you are smater than that, than that. There is a difference in quality, denying that is foolish. And all this Mil-Spec bashing is silly as well. The "lowest bidder" gave us such weapons as the M1 Garand and the M14.

Munny$hot
12-12-2011, 1:00 PM
What are the quality differences? Material, machining, NDT inspection, fit/finish? Pics showing the differences would be great.

comblock
12-12-2011, 2:57 PM
Lets put it this way. If you have a headache or are feeling sick, do you buy the tier 1 top shelf drugs/antibiotics or are you ok with the generic drugs. Remember your life depends on it...yada yada yada...its not the real thing....quality this....quality that...do you trust the generic with your life..are you a drug snob...so on.

rojocorsa
12-12-2011, 3:07 PM
My DTI has a mystery meat 1/9 non-chrome lined barrel, a mystery meat semi auto BCG. Are you saying that is the same as Noveske or BCM, LMT, Colt, DD etc??? I know you are smater than that, than that. There is a difference in quality, denying that is foolish. And all this Mil-Spec bashing is silly as well. The "lowest bidder" gave us such weapons as the M1 Garand and the M14.

Winchester, HRA, IHC, IBM, National Post Meter, Rock Ola, Remington-Rand, Singer, Colt, Savage, etc---all of these "lowest bidders" who made guns during and after WWII, these all had to conform to some minimum standard.

As you know, even today this holds true.

Yeah, I agree. Better to have that standard than no standard at all. I think it really helps. After all, there are a lot of nuances in commercial rifles that may lead to issues and such. Take something as simple as gas port diameter, you know? It can give people issues with either over-gassing or FTEs.


In the end, it's just seems easier to have some established metric to work with.

Noah3683
12-12-2011, 3:24 PM
Lets put it this way. If you have a headache or are feeling sick, do you buy the tier 1 top shelf drugs/antibiotics or are you ok with the generic drugs. Remember your life depends on it...yada yada yada...its not the real thing....quality this....quality that...do you trust the generic with your life..are you a drug snob...so on.

What the hell kind of argument is that? The more expensive Drug usually was just the first big fish to come along with the product. Pfizer etc just push it. The generic drug almost always has the exact same ingredients. Del-ton's aren't using all the exact same components, and they aren't even the cheapest option for said product. I don't really see anyone in here saying they are crap.... but it is fair to stay they don't have as high of a standard as Colt, DD, Noveske, LMT, BCM.... possibly even Spike's as they have gotten pretty anal in their QC process as well

rojocorsa
12-12-2011, 3:35 PM
What the hell kind of argument is that? The more expensive Drug usually was just the first big fish to come along with the product. Pfizer etc just push it. The generic drug almost always has the exact same ingredients. Del-ton's aren't using all the exact same components, and they aren't even the cheapest option for said product. I don't really see anyone in here saying they are crap.... but it is fair to stay they don't have as high of a standard as Colt, DD, Noveske, LMT, BCM.... possibly even Spike's as they have gotten pretty anal in their QC process as well

This.


Comblock, I understood the point you were trying to make (And even agree with it,) but the pharmaceuticals is an apples to oranges comparison. With the drugs, once their patent runs out, anyone else can go out and make a generic version.


As you can see, it's not quite like that for firearms.

Munny$hot
12-12-2011, 6:04 PM
Funny part over all this "TOP TIER Rifle" is most of them don't manufacture any or very few parts in house. Not to say all parts are created equal, but to say brand A is > brand B because of their name being laser etched on the part is laughable. Build a rig with to tight of a tolerance maybe be more accurate, but less reliable in unforgiving environments (any one care for another never ending AR vs AK debate?) Having parts that are tested gives me peace of mind and knowing that it didn't cost me an arm and a leg for it makes me feel all warm-n-fuzzy. Does it make parts that are NDT better than batch tested parts any better? No, but if it makes you sleep better at night then spend the extra duckets and be happy. I remember when RRA got the FBI contract for their AR15 and you had to wait several months or more to fill your order, but now the Kool Aide of the month is someone else RRA is now a POS or ok for a beginner gun.

Noah3683
12-12-2011, 9:15 PM
Funny part over all this "TOP TIER Rifle" is most of them don't manufacture any or very few parts in house. Not to say all parts are created equal, but to say brand A is > brand B because of their name being laser etched on the part is laughable. Build a rig with to tight of a tolerance maybe be more accurate, but less reliable in unforgiving environments (any one care for another never ending AR vs AK debate?) Having parts that are tested gives me peace of mind and knowing that it didn't cost me an arm and a leg for it makes me feel all warm-n-fuzzy. Does it make parts that are NDT better than batch tested parts any better? No, but if it makes you sleep better at night then spend the extra duckets and be happy. I remember when RRA got the FBI contract for their AR15 and you had to wait several months or more to fill your order, but now the Kool Aide of the month is someone else RRA is now a POS or ok for a beginner gun.
Fair argument, however DD, COLT, LMT all are mfg's. DD only outsources pins and springs. I believe colt outsources a few things but not many. I believe LMT is 100% in house. Not 100% sure on what Colt or LMT outsources, but I'm sure about DD and that still puts the majority of the "top tier" as argued through this thread as manufacturers, with BCM and Noveske being the only "assemblers" Now with that said. BCM and Noveske have a long track record of assembling only the top quality components.

UserM4
12-12-2011, 9:15 PM
I'm sure Del-Ton will run fine for most of us. But to compare them to BCM/DD/LMT is a bit over the top. Anyone with business experience will know that to supply a product at the lowest price point possible, cost cutting measures are implemented throughout the manufacturing and supply process.

Have you ever had some contractor work done at your business or residence? People come to bid and some are extremely expense, most are similar in price, and a few are surprisingly low cost. If you're like me, you chose the low cost bidder. Then, when it's too late, you find that they cut corners and used shoddy hardware. From those mistakes, although it's very hard to choose someone that costs more, I now choose from the median priced bidders and have had work done as to be expected.

I find it hard to believe that Del-Ton can provide the same quality components as all the major brands at half the price. If the components are infact the same quality, I wonder where they can afford to cut costs.

Again, I have a Del-Ton on order and expect a great plinker, nothing more, but with the hopes of a quality rifle.

Cactus_Tim
12-12-2011, 9:39 PM
My Del-ton is a Saturday afternoon plinker.

That's what I bought it for and it hasn't failed me yet.

Shoots everything I've fed to it.

I have no complaints.

If it breaks, I'll fix it.

Until then I'll just keep feeding it.

racky
12-12-2011, 9:53 PM
i think everyone is overthinking the delton.

gun requirement #1 - does it shoot?
answer - yes

/thread

6doubleR
12-12-2011, 10:02 PM
i think everyone is overthinking the delton.

gun requirement #1 - does it shoot?
answer - yes

/thread

Lol AGREED.

Munny$hot
12-12-2011, 10:26 PM
I agree LMT, DD, Noveske, BCM are all good stuff and I have no problem buying from them. I must admit I buy stuff to run it into the ground and abuse it. My philosophy is if I drop down the side of hill the first thought I want coming to my mind is "Dang it now I have to go get it" not " Oh crap I scratched it".

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 7:33 AM
Funny part over all this "TOP TIER Rifle" is most of them don't manufacture any or very few parts in house. Not to say all parts are created equal, but to say brand A is > brand B because of their name being laser etched on the part is laughable. Build a rig with to tight of a tolerance maybe be more accurate, but less reliable in unforgiving environments (any one care for another never ending AR vs AK debate?) Having parts that are tested gives me peace of mind and knowing that it didn't cost me an arm and a leg for it makes me feel all warm-n-fuzzy. Does it make parts that are NDT better than batch tested parts any better? No, but if it makes you sleep better at night then spend the extra duckets and be happy. I remember when RRA got the FBI contract for their AR15 and you had to wait several months or more to fill your order, but now the Kool Aide of the month is someone else RRA is now a POS or ok for a beginner gun.

There are several sources for parts (more than most people think). On top of that, several of the better AR builders are reaching out to machine shops that don't have a background in gun parts and contracting them to make things such as bolts, lower parts, etc. This allows them to control everything from the ground up.

If we take bolts (for instance), you generally cannot buy them having been HPT/MPI'd. So that means that companies buy them and then have shoot the proof load and then have them inspected. What proof load did they use? How and where were they inspected? Was the company that did the MPI certified to do so? The list goes on.

RRA did win the DEA contract, but so did Colt and another company. While RRA's name was on the contract, DEA agents could buy a Colt. My understanding is that many Agents went this way and the RRA's they did buy did not do so well.



C4

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 7:37 AM
I just verified that DTI uses .070 GP's on their carbines. That means they are over gassed. This of course translates into accelerated wear, more felt recoil and a dirtier gun.



C4

chicoredneck
12-13-2011, 7:58 AM
I just verified that DTI uses .070 GP's on their carbines. That means they are over gassed. This of course translates into accelerated wear, more felt recoil and a dirtier gun.



C4

maybe they want their guns to function reliably with cheap underpowered 223 ammo such as wolf and bear ammo

Arisaka
12-13-2011, 8:07 AM
maybe we should start a pic comparison thread. Who has a BCM carrier? I'll post a Delton. Someone should also torture test a Delton once and for all. Anyone here able to convince a company to donate a firearm?

comblock
12-13-2011, 8:07 AM
Yes deltons are over gassed. Been discussed ad nauseum for a year now.

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 8:26 AM
maybe they want their guns to function reliably with cheap underpowered 223 ammo such as wolf and bear ammo

I am guessing that they don't want CS phone calls about their guns short stroking (because the end user is shooting crap ammo).



C4

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 8:28 AM
maybe we should start a pic comparison thread. Who has a BCM carrier? I'll post a Delton. Someone should also torture test a Delton once and for all. Anyone here able to convince a company to donate a firearm?

Statistical samplings of ONE is just about worthless (no matter the end result). This is why I posted that when you look at the quality of a gun, you have to compare a bunch of them all shooting the same ammo for the same number of rounds.


C4

Arisaka
12-13-2011, 8:31 AM
^^ Surprised nobody has done this...

Munny$hot
12-13-2011, 8:33 AM
Grant, thanks for the info and correction on the RRA DEA contract, guess the memory fades over the years LOL. Both DP and you have a wealth of info and we're lucky to have both of you here on CGN. Thanks again for sharing.

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 8:34 AM
Grant, thanks for the info and correction on the RRA DEA contract, guess the memory fades over the years LOL. Both DP and you have a wealth of info and we're lucky to have both of you here on CGN. Thanks again for sharing.

Thanks.



C4

evidens83
12-13-2011, 8:45 AM
i think everyone is overthinking the delton.

gun requirement #1 - does it shoot?
answer - yes

/thread

//thread

comblock
12-13-2011, 8:58 AM
It works fine with cheap 223 bulk pack 45gr-55gr, tula, wolf. I dont really need anything more potent when murdering innocent paper silhouettes.
One of the main points in quality is understanding your customers needs. Deltons customers are primarily the casual shooter. Not the .mil, leo, blackwater contractor, or professional competitor. If you fit one of the above then you need something more. If you are not one of the above and cost is an issue when purchasing firearm then a delton maybe something for you.

grant22
12-13-2011, 10:29 AM
bump :D