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insik
12-08-2011, 10:06 AM
What do you guys think about this model for $999.00? It is better than MP 15 Sport and OR since it has Magpul Mbus rear and front sight and picatinny rails.

Though, I have a stripped lower coming for my first build, I want to get your comments.

Where would SW MP15 be compared to? Is it at the same level as DD, BCM or Colt?

No brand war please.

thanks.

Noah3683
12-08-2011, 10:22 AM
Is it good? Yep on the same level? Nope. Are you likely to ever notice a difference or find out the hard way? Absolutely not. Isnt much different from the sport other than the rail, forward assist, and dust cover.

ZombieTactics
12-08-2011, 10:28 AM
The M&P15 T has a Melonite treated barrel and 5R rifling profile. I consider these premium features. The 5R profile is debatable to some degree, but Melonite is superior to chrome in almost every conceivable way. This does not necessarily confer some general superiority over the others mentioned. I think Noah3683's comment regarding "ever knowing the difference" is pretty spot on.

insik
12-08-2011, 10:35 AM
Yes, I believed I won't be able to tell the difference. This is only for plinking and target shooting indoor. thanks

Noah3683
12-08-2011, 10:39 AM
Yes, I believed I won't be able to tell the difference. This is only for plinking and target shooting indoor. thanks

If you dont mind me asking, how much is the m&p you are looking at locally? Turners has had some great deals on DD and Noveske rifles lately. Im not a huge turners fan but the prices on some of those rifles has been hard to ignore

insik
12-08-2011, 10:42 AM
$999 for MP15T

Noah3683
12-08-2011, 10:44 AM
In that case, yeah jump on the s&w

VictorFranko
12-08-2011, 10:47 AM
Shooting Times review of the M&P 15 (http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/longgun_reviews_swmp15_121906/)

A+ on my M&P 15T.

$999 is a great price.

insik
12-08-2011, 11:07 AM
I hope its still avaliable by Sat. Thank you guys

carnelianbay
12-08-2011, 12:36 PM
I never could get into the idea of the M&P Sporter. You can't go wrong with any M&P15.

12:13
12-08-2011, 12:55 PM
Shooting Times review of the M&P 15 (http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/longgun_reviews_swmp15_121906/)

A+ on my M&P 15T.

$999 is a great price.

$999 is a damn good price. I paid nearly a grand more during the OLL infancy

Quinc
12-08-2011, 2:44 PM
Nothing but good things to say about my MP15T.
http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=378883

INDABZ
12-08-2011, 4:41 PM
$999 is a damn good price. I paid nearly a grand more during the OLL infancy

Probably the older model.....they were a lot more expensive.....

C4iGrant
12-08-2011, 4:43 PM
What do you guys think about this model for $999.00? It is better than MP 15 Sport and OR since it has Magpul Mbus rear and front sight and picatinny rails.

Though, I have a stripped lower coming for my first build, I want to get your comments.

Where would SW MP15 be compared to? Is it at the same level as DD, BCM or Colt?

No brand war please.

thanks.

S&W AR's are not equal to Colt, BCM or DD.



C4

biochembruin
12-08-2011, 5:33 PM
The new M&P 15-T is a little less expensive than the original one. The original one had a Troy battle rail and Troy flip up sights. The new one has a S&W free float rail and Magpul MBUS (much cheaper than the Troy sights). Is it worth $999? Probably. The MSRP for the new M&P 15-T is only $1160, so the discount you're seeing isn't as deep as some people might think (the original MSRP was almost $1500).

All that said, it's probably still a good rifle. We have many people that use them at work (the original ones, anyway) and have never had any issues with them. If you don't mind the Magpul sights, it's a lot of rifle for under $1000. If I bought one, the first thing I would do is change the sights, and replace the rifle buffer with a heavy weight carbine buffer.

icenix
12-08-2011, 5:59 PM
I was looking at possibly getting the M&P 15T, but the price at my local shops is all the suggested retail price of $1,159 or something like that. Not to mention that none of the shops have one in, so it has to be ordered and they said it may take a while to come in since they are in high demand right now. Stupid other people waning the same gun as me.....

ZombieTactics
12-08-2011, 8:41 PM
S&W AR's are not equal to Colt, BCM or DD ... It would be very helpful to know which specific S&W components are of inferior quality, at at what point one should typically expect them to fail vs. the 3 other brands compared.

FatalKitty
12-08-2011, 9:05 PM
S&W AR's are not equal to Colt, BCM or DD.



C4

I would take the M&P15 over colt or BCM any day - DD... depends on how much $ I had to spend.

carnelianbay
12-08-2011, 10:06 PM
S&W AR's are not equal to Colt, BCM or DD.


Without specifics it's all subjective. We've all heard stories of catastrophic failures from every one of these companies. I recall a lot of bad mouthing of Colts for example, then when they released the 69xx CA's everyone had to have one. M&P's are more than adequate and are standard issue for many agencies.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 3:59 AM
It would be very helpful to know which specific S&W components are of inferior quality, at at what point one should typically expect them to fail vs. the 3 other brands compared.

Just using the TDP as our guideline, the barrel steel is 4140, NO HPT/MPI of the barrel. They say they HPT/MPI the bolt though (no verification at this point).

The gas port is over sized and out of spec, no H buffer and the twist rate is 1/9.

Will some of these out of spec items fail ahead of say a BCM or Colt? Don't know. Having a gun that is over gassed NEVER does you any favors though.


Full disclosure, I am a S&W LE Dealer and have worked as a consultant on their AR program.




C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 4:01 AM
I would take the M&P15 over colt or BCM any day - DD... depends on how much $ I had to spend.

That is your choice. I would not.

With that said, the S&W M&P 15 Sport is a good buy I think for the average plinker.



C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 4:05 AM
Without specifics it's all subjective. We've all heard stories of catastrophic failures from every one of these companies. I recall a lot of bad mouthing of Colts for example, then when they released the 69xx CA's everyone had to have one. M&P's are more than adequate and are standard issue for many agencies.

Anything made by man can fail. Certain parts on the guns are SUPPOSED to break/wear out (bolts, springs, gas rings, extractor insert, etc).

With that said, guns that follow the TDP are more likely to be reliable than ones that do not.

I am not a fan of "adequate" or "just as good." YMMV



C4

glock7
12-09-2011, 4:38 AM
^+1 for grant. i understand that one may want to just use the weapon for "plinking", i get it. but, if you are going to "invest" in that said weapon, why not get the best your $ can buy, i.e. "TDP". sure, i like to plink, but my weapon has to be the do all weapon, so i want the best that my money can buy. why? my life and my families life may depend on it. ymmv.

glock7
12-09-2011, 4:42 AM
I would take the M&P15 over colt or BCM any day - DD... depends on how much $ I had to spend.

one can put together a dd, bcm, colt for the same or cheaper than the m&p15t. for a few more bucks get the complete 6920ca for 1200 otd.

FatalKitty
12-09-2011, 7:10 AM
That is your choice. I would not.

With that said, the S&W M&P 15 Sport is a good buy I think for the average plinker.



C4

Good for the average plinker yet you sell them to law enforcement? riiiight...

colt and S&W - only two of that group that will consistently and reliably run wolf ammo


one can put together a dd, bcm, colt for the same or cheaper than the m&p15t. for a few more bucks get the complete 6920ca for 1200 otd.

I wouldn't own a Colt... I don't like paying for a name. $200 is a lot of ammo
And I put together my own gun, but if i were to buy a COMPLETE - it would be an M&P

almost 10k rounds through mine and I'm fairly certain it's not "TDP" the gun has never even malfunctioned ONCE

are you worried that you might have an S&W there sitting by the nightstand when someone breaks in and tries to rape you... and it doesn't shoot?

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 7:38 AM
My take below:

Just using the TDP as our guideline, the barrel steel is 4140 ... The TDP calls for an inferior, chrome-lined barrel. Salt-bath nitrided 4140 steel will outperform chromed 4150 in almost every conceivable test you can think of. This is not arguable. Outside the firearms industry chrome isn't taken seriously as anything but an ornamental plating, although it does the job well-enough in this case.

NO HPT/MPI of the barrel. They say they HPT/MPI the bolt though (no verification at this point). Possibly of concern.

The gas port is over sized and out of spec, no H buffer and the twist rate is 1/9 ... Over-gassing could represent a long-term reliability problem, of that there can be almost no doubt. It could also mean more reliable extraction/ejection for a civilian or LE duty weapon. The H buffer ... interesting data point but hardly a general statement of quality. The twist rate of the M&P15T is 1/8 with a 5R rifling profile. That's different than the TDP, but I can't think of a reason I'd call it necessarily inferior.

What part of the above would you say am I not understanding correctly?

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 7:52 AM
Good for the average plinker yet you sell them to law enforcement? riiiight...

No, we do not sell them.

I wouldn't own a Colt... I don't like paying for a name. $200 is a lot of ammo

You are not paying for the name. You are paying for more quality. Trust me, I know. ;)




C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:00 AM
My take below:

The TDP calls for an inferior, chrome-lined barrel. Salt-bath nitrided 4140 steel will outperform chromed 4150 in almost every conceivable test you can think of. This is not arguable. Outside the firearms industry chrome isn't taken seriously as anything but an ornamental plating, although it does the job well-enough in this case.

Sorry, I have not seen any Govt test validating this. I also have not seen an addendum to the TDP calling out the end of chromed barrels (either new or ones being ordered in the supply chain).

Over-gassing could represent a long-term reliability problem, of that there can be almost no doubt. It could also mean more reliable extraction/ejection for a civilian or LE duty weapon.

More heat and pressure NEVER relates to anything positive. It breaks things much earlier. If anything, a faster moving BCG results in bolt override issues.

The H buffer ... interesting data point but hardly a general statement of quality.

Sure it is. It is much cheaper to use a carbine buffer VS an H buffer. Cost cutting at its finest and something I have been trying to get S&W to fix since day one.

The twist rate of the M&P15T is 1/8 with a 5R rifling profile. That's different than the TDP, but I can't think of a reason I'd call it necessarily inferior.

The 1/8 twist rate is a new change (as they used to be 1/9). The 1/8 twist rate is a good option I think.

I have a NDA signed with S&W so I won't go into to much details about what S&W does and doesn't do well. I will just advise you, that they are NOT the same quality as DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske, etc. This doesn't mean that they aren't a good AR, just not as good as they could be.



C4

chicoredneck
12-09-2011, 8:12 AM
What is up with all the 1/7 twist love. Nobody here is flinging tracer rounds - it's illegal and the loaded ammunition that would perform better in a 1/7 twist are very expensive. I can see having a dedicated upper to shoot heavy 223 bullets, but for a general use AR that is going to be flinging 55-62gr projectiles, the 1/9 twist is clearly superior. 1/8 twist is even a better option for most who want to shoot the long 70gr+ projectiles than the 1/7 twist.

....And good melonite barrels have been proven to be more durable than chrome lined barrels.

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 8:13 AM
Sorry, I have not seen any Govt test validating this. I also have not seen an addendum to the TDP calling out the end of chromed barrels (either new or ones being ordered in the supply chain).
That's not really addressing the issue. I don't need a government test to validate that 2+2=4, or that things commonly known regarding metallurgy are factually so. You could increase the cyclic-rate-MTBF considerably by going to 4140/Nitrided without any doubt at all. I'm perplexed as to why this change hasn't been made, but it sure isn't based upon metallurgy or demonstrable characteristics.

More heat and pressure NEVER relates to anything positive. It breaks things much earlier. If anything, a faster moving BCG results in bolt override issues. I can't argue that, and wouldn't. And I don't need a government test on that one either, lol. It doesn't take anything more than knowing what "overgassed" means. The question is "how much earlier would it break something?"

Sure it is. It is much cheaper to use a carbine buffer VS an H buffer. Cost cutting at its finest and something I have been trying to get S&W to fix since day one. OK, so for $25 I can fix this.

The 1/8 twist rate is a new change (as they used to be 1/9). The 1/8 twist rate is a good option I think. I'm ambivalent. It's one of those thing which has so much to so with how you plan to use the rifle that its' hard to really make a general statement one way or the other.

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 8:17 AM
... And good melonite barrels have been proven to be more durable than chrome lined barrels.
You can demonstrate this in about 30 minutes using a lab-grade test oven. There are several within about 20 feet of my desk right now, but only one or two large enough for rifle barrels. Sadly, I'd never be able to bring gun parts in here, lol.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:20 AM
What is up with all the 1/7 twist love. Nobody here is flinging tracer rounds - it's illegal and the loaded ammunition that would perform better in a 1/7 twist are very expensive. I can see having a dedicated upper to shoot heavy 223 bullets, but for a general use AR that is going to be flinging 55-62gr projectiles, the 1/9 twist is clearly superior. 1/8 twist is even a better option for most who want to shoot the long 70gr+ projectiles than the 1/7 twist.

....And good melonite barrels have been proven to be more durable than chrome lined barrels.

Who said anthing about tracers???

1/7 twist barrels will shoot 55gr-80gr with no problem.

Please show me the test date on the melonite barrels.


C4

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:27 AM
That's not really addressing the issue. I don't need a government test to validate that 2+2=4, or that things commonly known regarding metallurgy are factually so. You could increase the cyclic-rate-MTBF considerably by going to 4140/Nitrided without any doubt at all. I'm perplexed as to why this change hasn't been made, but it sure isn't based upon metallurgy or demonstrable characteristics.

Sorry, I need to see .Gov testing on such things (like increased FPS, round count life span, errosion, etc). For the record, when S&W started to do this on the Sport guns, they called me and asked me for my opinion. The reason they went with it was to save cost. There was no other reason for it. ;)

Just to prove though that I am interested in the concept, I had a BCM SS barrel done in the nitride and will be testing it out.

I can't argue that, and wouldn't. And I don't need a government test on that one either, lol. It doesn't take anything more than knowing what "overgassed" means. The question is "how much earlier would it break something?"

Who knows. I just don't want to take the chance.

OK, so for $25 I can fix this.

When I see companies cut corners on things, I always have to ask myself, what else? What else did they cut a corner on??



C4

carnelianbay
12-09-2011, 8:38 AM
With that said, guns that follow the TDP are more likely to be reliable than ones that do not.

I am not a fan of "adequate" or "just as good." YMMV

I agree 100%

I concur that the term ďadequateĒ was inappropriately used. Working on DoD contracts, meeting a spec is binary. You either meet it or not. That was what I was trying to relay just as I know that youíre not implying that M&Pís are only good for plinking (specificly M&P15's not the Sporter which I think is a toy BTW).

I didnít know about the gas tube being out of spec. On a similar topic would you recommend mid-length gas systems over M4? Do you think Colt will ever make a 6940 mid-length version?

I am interested in your thoughts on the buffer tube also. This is one that I cannot get my hands around. Iíve had custom guns made and when I bring this up some builders laugh. I have yet to build one rifle with an H buffer.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 8:48 AM
I agree 100%

I concur that the term “adequate” was inappropriately used. Working on DoD contracts, meeting a spec is binary. You either meet it or not. That was what I was trying to relay just as I know that you’re not implying that M&P’s are only good for plinking (specificly M&P15's not the Sporter which I think is a toy BTW).

I didn’t know about the gas tube being out of spec. On a similar topic would you recommend mid-length gas systems over M4? Do you think Colt will ever make a 6940 mid-length version?

I am interested in your thoughts on the buffer tube also. This is one that I cannot get my hands around. I’ve had custom guns made and when I bring this up some builders laugh. I have yet to build one rifle with an H buffer.

I like the middy gas system, but do you really need it and or notice a difference (assuming you are using a gun with the proper GP size of .061-.063) no.

Colt is always looking at ways to advance the platform. I know that their Engineers (who have forgotten more than all of us combined will know) don't think there is any reason to go to it.



C4

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 8:52 AM
Just to prove though that I am interested in the concept, I had a BCM SS barrel done in the nitride and will be testing it out. ...
What kind of steel is that? Please don't start with something already chromed ... could get ugly fast, and leave you with some false impressions.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 9:19 AM
What kind of steel is that? Please don't start with something already chromed ... could get ugly fast, and leave you with some false impressions.

410.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-18-SPR-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-recbrl%2018ss.htm



C4

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 9:27 AM
Hmm, I have some misgivings on nitirding stainless. You could end up with less corrosion resistance depending upon the specific treatment used. Starting with 4140 or 4150 would be preferable, but you have my attention piqued! BTW ~ I really appreciate the ongoing discussion ... some of the best time on CG I've spent. :-)

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 10:04 AM
Hmm, I have some misgivings on nitirding stainless. You could end up with less corrosion resistance depending upon the specific treatment used. Starting with 4140 or 4150 would be preferable, but you have my attention piqued! BTW ~ I really appreciate the ongoing discussion ... some of the best time on CG I've spent. :-)

I chose a high end SS barrel (that was known for accuracy) because I wanted to check the following things out:

1. Was there a loss of accuracy with the Nitride (when the barrel is new)?
2. At what round cound does the barrels stop shooting its benchmark group size? Sooner or later than the same barrel without Nitride?
3. Is there less gas port errosion with Nitride?
4. More reliable when run hard?


I enjoy this forum and its members. Like many others, I am only after the truth about guns and gear.



C4

chicoredneck
12-09-2011, 11:00 AM
BTW ~ I really appreciate the ongoing discussion ... some of the best time on CG I've spent. :-)

I agree, C4igrant your knowledge is greatly appreciated and I enjoy a good discussion. I am just to the point where I am gearing up to start selling cutom ARs for hunting in alternate calibers. Althugh much of my target market and the intended use of my rifles is different than yours, it is still very interesting to myself.

chicoredneck
12-09-2011, 11:14 AM
Here is a little chart comparing the melonite treatment to hard chrome as far as corrosian resistance is concerned. I have read about the benefits of nitro-carburizing vs chrome on several occasions. Unfortuanetly, this is the only website right now that I am currently aware of that has a chart up. I can't recall where else I found information. Obviously, this is not an unbiased source.

http://www.ar15performance.com/home

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 11:34 AM
I agree, C4igrant your knowledge is greatly appreciated and I enjoy a good discussion. I am just to the point where I am gearing up to start selling cutom ARs for hunting in alternate calibers. Althugh much of my target market and the intended use of my rifles is different than yours, it is still very interesting to myself.

Thanks much.

In your market, I would still use the bes quality parts you can, but basically establish your own TDP. Giving the consumer a list of your standards, parts used and goes a long way with them.



C4

deadcoyote
12-09-2011, 11:48 AM
I don't want to get flamed but I went to a simple LEO carbine course around 18 months ago and several guys from the same department were having a lot of issues with their SW ar's. I know it could be many things, how they did maintenance, or willing them to fail as this agency had just forced their officers from self bought AR's to Dept issued SW's and there was alot of complaining by the line guys about it.

All I'm saying is from that experience I just wouldn't go with SW since there's so many other good options out there, why risk it? As a disclaimer I've never had one so I don't know, maybe they're great?

biochembruin
12-09-2011, 11:52 AM
I don't want to get flamed but I went to a simple LEO carbine course around 18 months ago and several guys from the same department were having a lot of issues with their SW ar's. I know it could be many things, how they did maintenance, or willing them to fail as this agency had just forced their officers from self bought AR's to Dept issued SW's and there was alot of complaining by the line guys about it.

All I'm saying is from that experience I just wouldn't go with SW since there's so many other good options out there, why risk it? As a disclaimer I've never had one so I don't know, maybe they're great?

When they originally came out there were reports of gas system problems. I have no first hand knowldege on what the issue was, but some coworkers had problems with the first run. S&W took care of them, and the newer rifles seem to have the problem resolved, from our experience.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 12:28 PM
I don't want to get flamed but I went to a simple LEO carbine course around 18 months ago and several guys from the same department were having a lot of issues with their SW ar's. I know it could be many things, how they did maintenance, or willing them to fail as this agency had just forced their officers from self bought AR's to Dept issued SW's and there was alot of complaining by the line guys about it.

All I'm saying is from that experience I just wouldn't go with SW since there's so many other good options out there, why risk it? As a disclaimer I've never had one so I don't know, maybe they're great?

Do you know how old their AR's were? Purchased this year? Last year? Etc?


C4

carnelianbay
12-09-2011, 1:00 PM
Iím still pondering the buffer question. Given that the M&P has an oversize gas port, and that I only run xm193 & xm855 (no 223 or cheap ammo) it makes me wonder if I should be running not only an H but maybe an H2. Iíll stick with the std buffers on the mid-lengths.

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 1:44 PM
Iím still pondering the buffer question. Given that the M&P has an oversize gas port, and that I only run xm193 & xm855 (no 223 or cheap ammo) it makes me wonder if I should be running not only an H but maybe an H2. Iíll stick with the std buffers on the mid-lengths.

I would run a Tactical Sprinco blue buffer spring and an H2-H3 buffer if it was my gun.



C4

ZombieTactics
12-09-2011, 2:38 PM
I would run a Tactical Sprinco blue buffer spring and an H2-H3 buffer if it was my gun. ...

Do you sell? How much? Might as well get in the plug!

C4iGrant
12-09-2011, 4:01 PM
Do you sell? How much? Might as well get in the plug!

We do sell the SpringCo Blue CS buffer spring.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=25006



C4

deadcoyote
12-09-2011, 5:26 PM
Do you know how old their AR's were? Purchased this year? Last year? Etc?


C4

The class was in July of 2010 and they had already had them for at least 6 months at that point. Like i said, it was kind of a sore subject as a lot of the guys had private purchased Colts, POF's, and even a Noveske and used them for years, then were directed no more and issued SW. They all had the subsequent opinion that a inferior weapon had been forced on them. Apparently one failed in their own in house training, then one went down at our training and all of these guys were seeing red.

Again to be fair, there are a lot of unknown factors here.

carnelianbay
12-10-2011, 8:31 AM
I would run a Tactical Sprinco blue buffer spring and an H2-H3 buffer if it was my gun.


I just sent you an order for the spring and a CMT H2 buffer. Thanks Grant.

C4iGrant
12-10-2011, 8:34 AM
I just sent you an order for the spring and a CMT H2 buffer. Thanks Grant.

No, thank you!



C4

Drivedabizness
12-10-2011, 11:34 AM
I just ordered the blue spring and H2 buffer too, Grant.

BTW - I just got the last M&P 15T that Sacramento Black Rifle had in stock. Now I get to sweat through 11 days of CA "gun jail".

Can't wait!!!!

insik
12-10-2011, 1:07 PM
Yep, just started the dros today. Another 10 days wait. Oh and this gun store just have their ground breaking today for their indoor shooting range. Island View Enterprisen in Ventura