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View Full Version : lake city xm855 safe in my AR and other stupid questions


sammy
12-06-2011, 6:43 PM
Hello all,

This question is placed here for better exposure.

I am getting a bonus this year at work :party: and am looking for some SHTF .556 ammo. Forgive me for asking and yes I used the search function and it sucks.

What is the story on lake city xm855? In a search, looking at reviews it would seem that this ammo are factory rejects. Reviewers seem happy to pay nearly $400.00 for a thousand and only have a hand full of dented or bent cartridges.

Here is a link to the reviews I am talking about. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/349830_.html

Another concern is I have an AR with a Wildle (sp?) chamber, stainless with a 1-8 twist that I will be using for this ammo. This is supposed be fairly hot ammo. Is it safe to use in this upper?

This is the ammo I am asking about http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-xm855-62gr-penetrator-ammo/cName/penetrator-ammo
Is this ammo rejected military or just surplus? What else can you tell me about it?


Thanks, Sammy

donking
12-06-2011, 6:50 PM
I would get one of these instead.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/1000rds-556-223-lake-city-green-tip-62gr-m855-penetrator-loose-ammo

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1577.html

OutlawStar
12-06-2011, 6:53 PM
I'll second the PMC Xtac. Quality stuff that doesn't look like it was stored in derkminastan for a few years and no dents in my 1k rounds. Just in case someone doesn't look at the maths: the lake city stuff is 37 cents per round before shipping while the xtac is 31 cents after shipping through PSA. Supposedly the same specs and if PMC bronze is representative with quality, then you could sleep easy at night after buying it.

carnelianbay
12-06-2011, 7:13 PM
xm193 and xm855 is all I shoot. I too have never had bad round.

It's very easy to get too caught up on ballistics and opinions. If it's good enough for our guys overseas then it's more than adequate for me.

glenntuc
12-06-2011, 9:15 PM
www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9017&dir=18|830|845
193 5.56 1200 rounds $318.00 + shipping .265 a round shoots great no ftf
just ordered 2000 $47.00 shiped so. cal

glenntuc
12-06-2011, 9:23 PM
pmc is good also have not shoot x-tac if i would have seen psa deal i might have gone that way, wideners was .30 w/ shipping
gun show pmc bronze was $254.00 + tax, parking, ticket

alfred1222
12-06-2011, 9:31 PM
PMC x-tac gets a :thumbsup: from me

Exposed
12-06-2011, 9:37 PM
Another vote for this ammo.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

I have 1k rounds sitting in my safe.....you know, just in case.......:13:

shortround1
12-06-2011, 9:49 PM
These are all steel core right? So I'm guessing you can't take this stuff to Angeles? Would their magnets not like it?

schneiderguy
12-06-2011, 9:51 PM
I'd go with M193 for "SHTF" over M855. With the heavier bullet you're losing quite a bit of fragmentation range for a small increase in its steel penetration abilities. So IMO the increased lethality of M193 outweighs the increased steel penetration of M855.

M193 is cheaper also. You can get 900 rounds of the Federal XM193 for $250 + shipping:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/900-rds-556-mm-55-grain-federal-lake-city-xm193af-ammo-stripper-clips

Or Wideners has Israel M193 milsurp for a little over $300 for 1200 rounds.

edit: M193 is more accurate also.

schneiderguy
12-06-2011, 9:51 PM
These are all steel core right? So I'm guessing you can't take this stuff to Angeles? Would their magnets not like it?

Correct, M855 has a steel core.

Exposed
12-06-2011, 9:52 PM
These are all steel core right? So I'm guessing you can't take this stuff to Angeles? Would their magnets not like it?

Yup. This is not range ammo (at least not in So.Cal). This is strictly SHTF ammo or BLM land ammo.

shortround1
12-06-2011, 9:56 PM
Ok thought so, thanks for clarifying.

carnelianbay
12-06-2011, 10:00 PM
I'd go with M193 for "SHTF" over M855. With the heavier bullet you're losing quite a bit of fragmentation range for a small increase in its steel penetration abilities. So IMO the increased lethality of M193 outweighs the increased steel penetration of M855.

M193 is cheaper also. You can get 900 rounds of the Federal XM193 for $250 + shipping:

edit: M193 is more accurate also.

If I was given a choice I would probably grab the XM193 for < 150yd engagements and the XM855 for > 150yd engagements.

In reality Iíll take either in any situation since the anxiety factor is going to more than outweigh the bullistic performance variance between these two loads.

ScottsBad
12-06-2011, 11:44 PM
Hello all,

This question is placed here for better exposure.

I am getting a bonus this year at work :party: and am looking for some SHTF .556 ammo. Forgive me for asking and yes I used the search function and it sucks.

What is the story on lake city xm855? In a search, looking at reviews it would seem that this ammo are factory rejects. Reviewers seem happy to pay nearly $400.00 for a thousand and only have a hand full of dented or bent cartridges.

Here is a link to the reviews I am talking about. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/349830_.html

Another concern is I have an AR with a Wildle (sp?) chamber, stainless with a 1-8 twist that I will be using for this ammo. This is supposed be fairly hot ammo. Is it safe to use in this upper?

This is the ammo I am asking about http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-xm855-62gr-penetrator-ammo/cName/penetrator-ammo
Is this ammo rejected military or just surplus? What else can you tell me about it?

Thanks, Sammy

XM855 is good to go for me, I didn't read the ARF article, but you need to take what they say over there with a grain of lead. I seem to get more accurate info on M4CARBINE.NET. But Calguns.net is more fun.

I also shoot PMC Xtac 62 grain, Lake City SS109, Lake City XM193, Centurion, Winchester Ranger 62 grain penetrator, etc.

The Wylde chamber (I'm not sure if I got the spelling right either) was designed to kinda span .223 and 5.56 if my memory serves me correctly. And it should be fine with military spec ammo.

I've never paid anything like $400 per 1000. Unless its higher quality. I don't think I've had a bent or dented round.

Someone in this thread said the XM193 55 grain is better for stopping power, but that is a simplistic statement so do your own homework.

Be aware that fires have been started by steel core rounds in dry areas.

That's all I can add for now.

zfields
12-06-2011, 11:50 PM
Am I the only person out there that stashes SP rifle rounds?

Not sure what is available for the 556, but I would consider stashing some ammo with the more effective bullet types for nasties of the 2 legged type for a SHTF stash.

Nathan Krynn
12-07-2011, 5:51 AM
I'd go with M193 for "SHTF" over M855. With the heavier bullet you're losing quite a bit of fragmentation range for a small increase in its steel penetration abilities. So IMO the increased lethality of M193 outweighs the increased steel penetration of M855.

M193 is cheaper also. You can get 900 rounds of the Federal XM193 for $250 + shipping:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/900-rds-556-mm-55-grain-federal-lake-city-xm193af-ammo-stripper-clips

Or Wideners has Israel M193 milsurp for a little over $300 for 1200 rounds.

edit: M193 is more accurate also.


I actually agree 100%. If you were to have a SHTF scenario which you are talking about you won't be shooting unless you need to and it will not be long range, or you'd flee/hide. So Id much rather have the better terminal ballistics.

Nathan Krynn
12-07-2011, 5:55 AM
XM855 is good to go for me, I didn't read the ARF article, but you need to take what they say over there with a grain of lead. I seem to get more accurate info on M4CARBINE.NET. But Calguns.net is more fun.

I also shoot PMC Xtac 62 grain, Lake City SS109, Lake City XM193, Centurion, Winchester Ranger 62 grain penetrator, etc.

The Wylde chamber (I'm not sure if I got the spelling right either) was designed to kinda span .223 and 5.56 if my memory serves me correctly. And it should be fine with military spec ammo.

I've never paid anything like $400 per 1000. Unless its higher quality. I don't think I've had a bent or dented round.

Someone in this thread said the XM193 55 grain is better for stopping power, but that is a simplistic statement so do your own homework.

Be aware that fires have been started by steel core rounds in dry areas.

That's all I can add for now.

Actually the WYLDE was NOT designed to shoot both .223 and 5.56 or bridge a gap.

It was designed to shoot long range rifle match's with hand loaded cartridges that won't even fit in the magazine on some (80gr SMK).

It was designed on the first Canadian 5.56 chamber that was tighter then modern 5.56 chambers and then Bill Wylde messed with the other dimensions.

Being able to shoot .223 and 5.56 was a side effect.

Also m193 has much better terminal ballistics then m855 by far, especially at the distance it was designed to be used in <300.

marathonman
12-07-2011, 1:16 PM
Has anyone tried American Eagle .223 in 55grain? It's about 0.28/round.

schneiderguy
12-07-2011, 2:05 PM
Has anyone tried American Eagle .223 in 55grain? It's about 0.28/round.

I've shot about 200 rounds of that through my AR and it works great.

ScottsBad
12-07-2011, 2:10 PM
Actually the WYLDE was NOT designed to shoot both .223 and 5.56 or bridge a gap.

It was designed to shoot long range rifle match's with hand loaded cartridges that won't even fit in the magazine on some (80gr SMK).

It was designed on the first Canadian 5.56 chamber that was tighter then modern 5.56 chambers and then Bill Wylde messed with the other dimensions.

Being able to shoot .223 and 5.56 was a side effect.

Also m193 has much better terminal ballistics then m855 by far, especially at the distance it was designed to be used in <300.

Here is how Rock River describes the Wylde chamber, which is were I got my information a few years ago.

From Rock River Arms:

"The .223 Wylde chamber was designed as a match chambering for semi-automatic rifles. It will accomodate both .223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO ammunition. It is relieved in the case body to aid in extraction and features a shorter throat for improved accuracy."

So I'm editing here. Thanks for the history lesson, but it is pointless. You may be correct that the Wylde chamber was not DESIGNED to shoot .223 & 5.56 with some improvment in accuracy, but that is what it does. So, back to the original question, can he shoot 5.56 rounds in his Wylde chambered rifle? The answer is still, YES.

When I read the info from Rock River several years ago I made the mental leap that the Wylde chamber was actually designed to do what it does according to Rock River Arms. What a huge mistake, I said "designed to" when I should have said "accidentally".

As for the terminal ballistics of the m193, I can't dispute the terminal ballistic quality at close range compared to the m855. The discussion was about shtf scenarios, where the battlefield is not made up of battle hardened organized soldiers with medical back up. Instead it is an enemy that will most likely be detered by any significant wound. And the wounded person will have to be cared for by other enemy. Anyone wounded without good medical attention is not a threat for long. I want to remove their will to fight. A person hit with a m855 in the arm may still be able to fight some, but without medical attention they won't fight long. These are people who have just lost their IPhone (OMG), they are hungry, and if I make it hard enough they will go somewhere else where they don't have to worry about being shot.

So for me a dead enemy is best, but wounding someone has some advantages especially if it is offset by a round that can also penetrate barriers better and I can shoot longer distances with. I feel that I want a round that can penetrate walls, cars, and other barriers a little better. And the m855 will help that. So, I'm less worried about wounding without a kill than I am about reaching an enemy through a barrier. This is why I like my .308 too, but I wouldn't be able to carry as many .308 rounds if I got flushed.

Terminal ballistics, as you know, are determined by bullet velocity and weight (ballistic energy?) at the time of impact, along with the resulting (I can't remember the right term) fragmentaion and path of the projectile in flesh which produces a hydrolic and fragmentary wound cavity, as measure in ballistics jell. OK, I cannot remember all the terms, but the best bullet makes a bigger, nastier hole. But that is only if you view your round only as penetrating flesh. So m855 is my primary choice.

If you envision the SHTF scenario like a hollywood zombie attack then m193 makes perfect sense as the only choice. But I don't. So I want both.

Finally, my comment was more about the use of the round in a SHTF scenario than a challenge about the effectiveness of the round. I want to be able to penetrate bad guy hiding places and cars, as well as reach out a longer distance if necessary. It's all about deterrence and defense and I make my choices with some thought. I simple believe to many folks base their SHTF defense using military constructs and thinking. Yes, there is a lot to be learned from the Military, but they fight a little differently than civilians trying to protect their families against an untrained enemy.

I also responded about the characteriztion of the xm855 in a discussion on ARF. First, I said I didn't read it. Second, I stand by what I said.

Haven't you got work to do Nathan?
====
God, why do I keep putting up with this crap? :sleeping:

ScottsBad
12-07-2011, 4:49 PM
If I was given a choice I would probably grab the XM193 for < 150yd engagements and the XM855 for > 150yd engagements.

In reality Iíll take either in any situation since the anxiety factor is going to more than outweigh the bullistic performance variance between these two loads.

I fully understand your argument, I simply look at it differently. (see post above). It is a different enemy in a SHTF scenario. Anyway, it is not about steel penetration, its about any barrier penetration. Walls, doors, cars, fences, etc. I want to be able to reliably shoot through barriers, as well as longer distances as necessary to push back attackers. SHTF fighters will move on to a less dangerous place to get their food.

RRichie09
12-07-2011, 6:24 PM
Has anyone tried American Eagle .223 in 55grain? It's about 0.28/round.

American Eagle is Federal, BUT the AE .223 is NOT the same as Federal 5.56. American Eagle also makes 5.56

If your rifle is chambered in 5.56, Wylde, Noveske then is it ok to shoot 5.56 or .223

If you rifle is chambered in .223 you can NOT shoot 5.56 in it.

CK_32
12-07-2011, 8:16 PM
xm193 and xm855 is all I shoot. I too have never had bad round.

It's very easy to get too caught up on ballistics and opinions. If it's good enough for our guys overseas then it's more than adequate for me.

Same here. Buy bulk only. Shot about 2k rounds out of my carbine before I sold it for a middy. Now I have to find range time to take the middy out.

But if it's rejects it's still amazing stuff. Not a single FTF/FTE in any 800 round range days. Rapid fire bump fire mag dumps and slow fire. I think that says its good to go if you ask me.

Zartan
12-08-2011, 5:42 AM
Has anyone tried American Eagle .223 in 55grain? It's about 0.28/round.

LOVE the stuff. Just picked up 5 more 20packs at Walmart last night. $4.97 a box I believe? I have a can of M855 I'm waiting to shoot over the holidays

Mail Clerk
12-08-2011, 5:44 AM
Hello all,

This question is placed here for better exposure.

I am getting a bonus this year at work :party: and am looking for some SHTF .556 ammo. Forgive me for asking and yes I used the search function and it sucks.

What is the story on lake city xm855? In a search, looking at reviews it would seem that this ammo are factory rejects. Reviewers seem happy to pay nearly $400.00 for a thousand and only have a hand full of dented or bent cartridges.

Here is a link to the reviews I am talking about. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/349830_.html

Another concern is I have an AR with a Wildle (sp?) chamber, stainless with a 1-8 twist that I will be using for this ammo. This is supposed be fairly hot ammo. Is it safe to use in this upper?

This is the ammo I am asking about http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/1000rds-556-lake-city-xm855-62gr-penetrator-ammo/cName/penetrator-ammo
Is this ammo rejected military or just surplus? What else can you tell me about it?


Thanks, Sammy

Sammy,

I've shot Lake City ammo before inthe past and have never had any problems using it. Too me it's good ammo so I don't know anything aboutthe bad reviews about the brand. I hear as a rumor that there one of the big suppliers to the military although I'll bet every ammo factory has a contract now a days.

Mail Clerk

problemchild
12-08-2011, 6:22 AM
Yup. This is not range ammo (at least not in So.Cal). This is strictly SHTF ammo or BLM land ammo.


The ranges need to pull their heads out of their azzes and either:

1.) Clear the brush around the bullet impact area

OR

2.) Put in an automated sprinkler system near the brush

OR

3.) Have a big fire hose near the brush


#1 would be the best option.

WatsonGravy
12-08-2011, 5:52 PM
Weaponsworld.com

MFS Ammo steel cased, 1000rds $229.

.40Cal
12-08-2011, 9:29 PM
I would get one of these instead.
http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/1000rds-556-223-lake-city-green-tip-62gr-m855-penetrator-loose-ammo

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product1577.html

QUESTION - Is the Lake City Penetrator the same as the PMC X-Tac ???? The description for PMC X-Tac does not say it's the Penetrator.
EDIT: Just checked... It is an ordinary round, not the penetrator. The penetrator says so, and is 62 grains.

I fully understand your argument, I simply look at it differently. (see post above). It is a different enemy in a SHTF scenario. Anyway, it is not about steel penetration, its about any barrier penetration. Walls, doors, cars, fences, etc. I want to be able to reliably shoot through barriers, as well as longer distances as necessary to push back attackers. SHTF fighters will move on to a less dangerous place to get their food.

EXACTLY! Couldn't have put it any better.

I'd go with M193 for "SHTF" over M855. With the heavier bullet you're losing quite a bit of fragmentation range for a small increase in its steel penetration abilities. So IMO the increased lethality of M193 outweighs the increased steel penetration of M855.

M193 is cheaper also. You can get 900 rounds of the Federal XM193 for $250 + shipping: http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/900-rds-556-mm-55-grain-federal-lake-city-xm193af-ammo-stripper-clips Or Wideners has Israel M193 milsurp for a little over $300 for 1200 rounds.

edit: M193 is more accurate also.

What's the grain wt of Both? Barrels that have 1/7 twist are meant to shoot up to 75gr bullets, isn't it?

schneiderguy
12-08-2011, 9:47 PM
What's the grain wt of Both? Barrels that have 1/7 twist are meant to shoot up to 75gr bullets, isn't it?

M193 = 55 grain, M855 = 62 grain.

tonyxcom
12-09-2011, 8:36 AM
I bought Federal XM855 at the gun show for $79.95 for 300 rounds twice now.

donking
12-10-2011, 2:30 PM
QUESTION - Is the Lake City Penetrator the same as the PMC X-Tac ???? The description for PMC X-Tac does not say it's the Penetrator.
EDIT: Just checked... It is an ordinary round, not the penetrator. The penetrator says so, and is 62 grains.



It is my understanding the the 62 grain PMC-XTAC is the same M855/SS109 penetrator bullet. It has the same green tip and attracts the magnet the same as the Federal and other M855 bullets. The description does say "steel core", which is the same as "penetrator."
http://palmettostatearmory.com/1101.php

Maybe you were looking at the 55 grain M193 XTAC.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/2516.php

.

chicoredneck
12-10-2011, 2:45 PM
I actually agree 100%. If you were to have a SHTF scenario which you are talking about you won't be shooting unless you need to and it will not be long range, or you'd flee/hide. So Id much rather have the better terminal ballistics.

I'd go with M193 for "SHTF" over M855. With the heavier bullet you're losing quite a bit of fragmentation range for a small increase in its steel penetration abilities. So IMO the increased lethality of M193 outweighs the increased steel penetration of M855.

M193 is cheaper also. You can get 900 rounds of the Federal XM193 for $250 + shipping:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/federal/900-rds-556-mm-55-grain-federal-lake-city-xm193af-ammo-stripper-clips

Or Wideners has Israel M193 milsurp for a little over $300 for 1200 rounds.

edit: M193 is more accurate also.

I double agree 200%. 55gr just makes more sense for most people. It also penetrates most barriers better than the 62gr stuff, just not metal.

blazeaglory
12-10-2011, 3:36 PM
PMC XTAC is M855 just sold under a different name

I have bought several cans of the XM855 green tips. They are all I shoot.

The only difference in the cans is #1 Has a serial number which is over run and ARE NOT REJECTS and #2 says "not for duty use" which has been rejected due to the strict mil spec (small dings mostly) but is OK for civilian use. The PMC Xtac is from the NON REJECTED group of XM855.

Oh and BTW the only reason the "X" is in front of the name is to note that those cans and rounds are not going to be used for military duty and will be sold on the civilian market. Plain and simple these are some of the best rounds out there but if you want the over run make sure there is a serial number on the bottom of the can. Not that there is anything wrong with the "not for duty use" but personally I look for the over runs first.

Here is the website that manufactures the rounds with cool pictures and info on all the rounds

http://www.atk.com/capabilities_defense/cs_as_ma_sc_5.56mm.asp

223556
12-10-2011, 3:40 PM
Funny hahah Im doing the same with my bonus pay this year :)

captbilly
12-10-2011, 10:25 PM
I would look at 69 grain ammo from Black Hills, or maybe HSM if you want some excellent ammo at a lower price than Black Hills. I can't see what use I would have for steel cored ammo. It is neither accurate or particularly good at penatrating, and it's ballistics coefficient isn't nearly as good as a HPBT 69 grain bullet. If you are concerned about shooting through walls and such then you need something significantly more powerful than. 223/5.56 nato.

OutlawStar
12-10-2011, 10:42 PM
If memory serves me right M855 was designed to penetrate a steel helmet (perhaps steel door as well) while retaining a significant amount of the bullet to go through the skull. Its labeled as penetrator which makes people think it'll penetrate tanks and cinder block walls which is wasn't designed to do. Copied from ammo oracle:

M855: Defined in MIL-C-63989
NATO specifications for M855 Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,000 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20" barrel @ 78 feet from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is 3,100 fps. Accuracy: maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Because the steel penetrator increases the length and changes the weight distribution of the SS-109 bullet, it is suitable for use only in barrels with a twist of one turn in nine inches or faster. 1:10 twist will barely stabilize this round and not below zero degrees F.

TF_CAM
12-11-2011, 8:33 AM
Has anyone tried American Eagle .223 in 55grain? It's about 0.28/round.

AE 55gr has not served me wrong, its like 3 cents cheaper and its accurate. buy some before the price goes up! i got 600 rounds for 161 shipped out the door from cabelas.

sammy
12-11-2011, 6:00 PM
Thanks for the well thought posts.

I called Ammo To Go and asked about the xm855. They said it was from an over run. No factory seconds, just military surplus.

I am going to chrono it and check primers when I get it. My AR is amazingly accurate with standard PMC Bronze. My best group was a 10 shot 3/4" group at 100 yards and I don't shoot rifles much. The black box American Eagle is good for 4" at 100 with the same rifle :ack2:. Kind of anxious to see what kind of accuracy I get with this rifle.