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View Full Version : Anyone seen a Stag full size 10 round magazine?


tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 6:41 AM
I see lanworld is brining in the Stag full size 10 round magazines, but there is no mention of how Stag is making them legal. The only information I have received so far is that Stag said they were legal and they have a different colored follower.

Anyone else have some more details? I don't trust people outside of California just telling us they are legal. Before you think I am on some witch hunt, hear me out.

I won't mention any names, but you will pretty much figure it out. About 4 months ago I received some 10 round 6.8mm magazines. Not the ones that are in full size mags and tabbed out, but actual 6.8mm magazines from a very well known 6.8mm magazine manufacturer. I noticed a label on the package that stated the magazine could be loaded further than it was supposed to, but you might get feeding issues so reduce the capacity by one. :eek:

I immediately pulled some 6.8mm off the shelf and to my surprise was able to get 11 round easily into the magazine! I started to contact some random calgunners whom I thought might have these magazines and to their great surprise their magazines were the same way. I contacted the manufacturer and sent my magazines back before I sold any.

They have since fixed the problem, but for a while anyone with a fixed 6.8mm build probably had an assault weapon on their hands (and they still might, if you have a standard 10 round 6.8mm magazine, you should check it and send any bad mags back to the manufacturer).

Why the story? Never trust other people to know what they are doing, not even FFL dealers like myself who should know better. After all, if you ask Evans about OLLs, he will tell you we are all going to jail. :rolleyes:

I will call Stag this morning and see what they say as far as how they are doing this. I will probably even order some up so I can test them myself. If I were the consumer, until quite a few knowledgeable people on this board inspect and know what these mags are like, I would stay away from them. At the very least, we need some more information about how they are permanently modified, information we still haven't seen.

When I started selling the C Products 10/30 magazines, we went through this same thing. People we claiming they were illegal and easily converted back. I tested them out and found those tabs simply won't bend back and forth. If you try to drill out the tabs, the bullet will hang up and the magazine won't work. They were solid because they were stainless steel. Again, we don't know what these Stag mags are like, but I think we need to know.

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 7:27 AM
The guys at Stag have no idea how they are done either! They get them from an outside vendor. The good news is they are sending me a sample so maybe in a week or so I can give you all some better answers than we have been getting.

I talked to C Products so I know it isn't their magazine and for $18 I think it is probably going to be aluminum. So it is probably pinned as lanworld has stated. How is it pinned and is it permanent? We don't know. Will it function well? That we still don't know.

However, we will in about a week! :D

edsel6502
03-02-2007, 9:16 AM
Wes,

I have one. Its a 10/20 rounder.

The follower is grey. And the way its blocked is that there is a dimple/tab pushed/cut into the magazine shell. I've not had a chance to push 10 rounds into it yet. I do not know too much about the floorplate ie. is it removable.

Since this is my first AR15 I'm not an expert so my observations may be off.

I'll try and take photos later tonight if you want.

shinigami
03-02-2007, 10:03 AM
I'd be interested to know what you guys find out. I was going to order some from lanworld but hesitated.

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 10:07 AM
Wes,

I have one. Its a 10/20 rounder.

The follower is grey. And the way its blocked is that there is a dimple/tab pushed/cut into the magazine shell. I've not had a chance to push 10 rounds into it yet. I do not know too much about the floorplate ie. is it removable.

Since this is my first AR15 I'm not an expert so my observations may be off.

I'll try and take photos later tonight if you want.

Aluminum tabs might not be a good idea. We will see.

bwiese
03-02-2007, 10:16 AM
Good catch. Vigilance pays off.

Socal858
03-02-2007, 10:26 AM
good watchin out wes

Cbieling
03-02-2007, 4:42 PM
Since my company name has been used specifically in this post I will address. As an FFL we all have the moral and ethical duty to uphold the laws for all the states we do business in. We should always be looking out for the safety of our customers and end users.

With that said my company has a lot more at stake then making $2.00 on magazine sales into California. If I did not personally feel 100% comfortable selling products into the state of California they would not be offered. Most dealers stay away from California because of the extra leg work and research that goes into selling to the California citizen. I am from California which is why I personally want to help each and every shooter out.

My product line is extensive and unfortunately I can only offer a small portion to the California market. What I offer has been researched and is sold with confidence.

If any of my customers or fellow dealers has any concerns about the products I offer or my ethical business practices you know how to find me.

801-865-8550

Regards
Chris Bieling
President
LAN World, Inc.

pnkssbtz
03-02-2007, 4:52 PM
Since my company name has been used specifically in this post I will address. As an FFL we all have the moral and ethical duty to uphold the laws for all the states we do business in. We should always be looking out for the safety of our customers and end users.

With that said my company has a lot more at stake then making $2.00 on magazine sales into California. If I did not personally feel 100% comfortable selling products into the state of California they would not be offered. Most dealers stay away from California because of the extra leg work and research that goes into selling to the California citizen. I am from California which is why I personally want to help each and every shooter out.

My product line is extensive and unfortunately I can only offer a small portion to the California market. What I offer has been researched and is sold with confidence.

If any of my customers or fellow dealers has any concerns about the products I offer or my ethical business practices you know how to find me.

801-865-8550

Regards
Chris Bieling
President
LAN World, Inc.

Thank you for helping spread the goodness in the PRK!

Could you shed some light on how the Stag magazines are designed?

Geoffkoop
03-02-2007, 5:02 PM
Chris is a good guy...Im sure he would'nt sell them if they were not legal.

Cbieling
03-02-2007, 5:22 PM
On Monday I am expecting a shipment of 50 magazines. I will disassemble one and take picture of all the components and post them for this list. I hope that will help ease everyone's mind.

Thanks again,
Chris

radd
03-02-2007, 5:27 PM
+1 for Chris at lanworldinc.com Thanks for looking out for us.

thomye
03-02-2007, 5:28 PM
I'll second that. by the way, how are the cproduct mags in design, does anyone have a pic of that one? for all we know, it could be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

i have a 10/20, not sure who makes it but it's pretty cool. They 10rd stop is a dent in the mag on both sides. The mag is actaully laser cut all the way around except for where the two dents are. the laser cuts are very discrete. i thought i was being smart so i drilled out the dents to see what was stopping people for doing the same, it turns out if the you take the dents out, the whole mag falls apart into two pieces. they should

edsel6502
03-02-2007, 6:05 PM
Ok I just ran back home from work.

To take some pictures and try to jam more than 10 rounds into the mag.

I got to run out for dinner. So I'll take pictures and post later.

But right now. I can't get more than 10 rounds into the mag. I tried pretty hard.

So for now. Chris's mags looks good. pics to come later.

cheers,
ed

Jicko
03-02-2007, 6:10 PM
Maybe Wes can disassemble one and take some pictures then we can all see....

Chris will be doing that for his new $18 stags.... GREAT PRICE, by the way!

threadcrapper
03-02-2007, 6:11 PM
I have heard some stuff about C products 10-30 mag that it can be easily converted back to a 30 with a dremil tool. I wish mags could have rubber or epoxy filled in the bottom so there would be zero chance that a mag could be seen as possibly illegal or even converted back to a 30. Bushmaster makes a 10-20 that's BATF approved. Nice, but 30 is better.

blacklisted
03-02-2007, 6:13 PM
I may have a story about a defective 10 round magazine soon. :(

They only have to be a little out of spec for them to accommodate that eleventh round, and I really wish the manufacturers would be more careful.

rorschach
03-02-2007, 6:28 PM
Since the AWB expired, is BATFE even regulating 10 round mags anymore??

hoffmang
03-02-2007, 6:38 PM
BATFE isn't, but CA is somewhat...

-Gene

gn3hz3ku1*
03-02-2007, 8:16 PM
if someone was able to mod the mag to make it a illegal cap mag, wouldnt it be their fault and not Chris'? plus if they want to break the law why go out of your way to do it there are much easier ways? as long as they dont hold more than 10 then its not chris' fault if someone decides to mod them after he sells it to them

gn3hz3ku1*
03-02-2007, 8:17 PM
double post due to some weird error

bobothebigdog
03-02-2007, 8:21 PM
I have heard some stuff about C products 10-30 mag that it can be easily converted back to a 30 with a dremil tool. I wish mags could have rubber or epoxy filled in the bottom so there would be zero chance that a mag could be seen as possibly illegal or even converted back to a 30. Bushmaster makes a 10-20 that's BATF approved. Nice, but 30 is better.

That'd be a heavy mag.

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 8:33 PM
What I offer has been researched and is sold with confidence.
So how are they pinned then? Or are they tabbed? Are they aluminum? Are they steel? No one at Stag seems to know. What research have you turned up? Can you post it here? Or do we have to call you?

I'll second that. by the way, how are the cproduct mags in design, does anyone have a pic of that one? for all we know, it could be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

It could be I don't want Stag cutting into my sales or Lanworld selling his mags for a 12% profit. Fortunately, the C Products 10/30 magazine has been thoroughly discussed on this board and its reputation has been established. Not to mention if Stag's new vendor has produced a good high quality magazine that reliably feeds and functions and is better than the C Products 10/30, I have no problem selling that too.

There have been some of the C Products magazines 10/30s that have been kind of sketchy on performance. Most guys love them. You can try and dremmel the tab or try and drill it out, but cutting it off is going to leave left over material that will still block the mag and drilling it out could create a problem with the rounds not feeding right when they nose into the hole. They are stainless steel. You can read more about the previous debate here.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=41075&highlight=products+10%2F30

and

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=365469&postcount=62

Ladies and gentleman, we know nothing about these magazines. I am sure Chris is not trying to knowingly sell illegal magazines into the state. Just like I am sure PRI wasn't trying to sell high capacity magazines into the state, but when I could put 11 rounds into every PRI 10 round 6.8mm magazine I initially received, it was hard to refute those facts. Just as sure as some dealers don't want to deal with us because of the hassle, some dealers might not know the laws and might send us things they assume are legal.

I have only learned to suspect everything from doing this for well over a year now. I assume nothing and check out everything. I highly, highly recommend you do some research before ever assuming an FFL knows what he is talking about. That includes my opinions too. I live in Kern County where I am not too scared of a rouge DA trying to take me out. Do you have that luxury? Do the guys at Stag in Conneticut have to worry about your DA?

Stay alert and assume nothing in this OLL game. We will see what they look like soon, so we have nothing to worry about. Just like the first batch of Bullet Buttons, we had to send them back for some more fool proofing. I can tell you as a dealer there is nothing better than figuring out a problem before you ship a bunch of them.

goldfinger
03-02-2007, 8:58 PM
+1!!!!

Chris is a good guy...Im sure he would'nt sell them if they were not legal.

thmpr
03-02-2007, 9:37 PM
I dont see the point how it is pinned, fixed and tabbed. How is the C products rigged? As long as it came from the mfg. in a legal fashion (Able to fit only 10 rounds), it will be fine. Plus the price for it is very reasonable.

edsel6502
03-02-2007, 11:08 PM
Okie Dokie.

Done with Friday night din dins. Btw. If y'all into Cuban food. The Los Cubanos restaurant in downtown San Jose highly recommended. Burp I say.

So now that I have sometime. I did more testing so here are some observations.

- Still won't take more than 10 rounds
- Its body is made of steel.
- It uses two tabs to stop the follower and limit the magazine to 10 rounds

This particular magazine shipped from Chris at LanWordInc. will not take more than 10 rounds. And again for this test, I pushed down hard to try to get round 11 in but no luck.

I've a total of 6 off these mags on order and are pretty sure those would be fine and dandy as well. Like everyone says, I'm sure that Chris is not out to get us Californian's into hot water. Since these are coming from Stag, (who gets them from goodness knows where) IMO this is a legal 10 round magazine according to the law. Stag markets them as 10 rounders and I can't make them take more than 10 rounds. Its good enough for me. YMMV :p

Pictures can be seen at of said magazine can be seen in various stages of undress here. (http://www.thewok.net/tan/stagmag/index.html)

Other things I noticed. Once disassembled. YOu can't get the bloody follower out because of the two tabs. You can't tilt an end forward to try to angle past the tab. As a result its taking a lot of swearing and jiggling to get the spring seated in the correct position under the follower to ensure a smooth movement of the follower under spring power.

In fact as I type I'm still cursing and swearing as the follower is not moving up and down the magazine smoothly. I suspect its the fact that I am unable to position the spring under the follower properly. I have to let the follower rest on the two tabs, wiggle my spring in there and hope that it seats under the follower properly.

My suggestion is that you don't want to disassemble the magazine unless you are going to remove the two tabs and let the follower drop to the bottom of the magazine so you can seat the spring properly so that when you reassemble you have a properly functioning magazine. And we can't do that.

ps. Wes, I ordered 3 10 rounders from you, 1 each of my 3 ARs a few days ago. Those magazine are for when the ARs are being transported. No need for messy questions about the capacity of my mags if I'm stopped to or from the way to the range. :D

pps. ye-gads. I need to dust my desktop. Or at least use it more... look at them dust bunnies (in the pics.)

YMMV. I'm new to ARs and this is my first AR mag I've come in contact with so I might be total off base. ;)

EDIT: After trying to make an 11 rounder again with alot of force. The follower is now going up and down like buttah... In the magazine... :)

artherd
03-02-2007, 11:27 PM
Thanks to both Chris and Wes for going way above and beyond looking out for us CA consumers!



PS: I can get 11 into many '10' round *Factory OEM* mags, in all sorts of guns, from quality manufactuars like Glock, Sig, etc. Not knock-offs, not 3rd party, we're talking the origional post-94/99 brand new mags that *shipped with the gun* in many cases!

We have so many gun laws in this state that we are probally all walking felons, and just don't know it yet.

tenpercentfirearms
03-03-2007, 9:33 AM
edsel6502, I think you have a C Products 10/30 magazine. Look on the side of the magazine, it should have SS/5.56 stamped on the side of the magazine. Chris stated the Stag mags were pinned. I don't think anyone has seen the Stag mags or Stag cut a deal with C Products even though C Products said they hadn't on the phone yesterday.

gn3hz3ku1*
03-03-2007, 10:09 AM
even better deal if stag is just getting them from c products..

edsel6502
03-03-2007, 10:14 AM
Wes,

It says the following

.223/5.56
SS

So it means its not a C-Products mag?.

btw. I don't think Chris said the Stag mags are pinned. All he said is that they be California legal. Not California idiot/naughty proof :)

Cbieling
03-03-2007, 10:30 AM
I appreciate you taking the time to take the photos and experiment with the mag. I think now we can all rest easy and move on to more productive things, like building AR-15's and shooting them. :-)

Thanks,
Chris

tenpercentfirearms
03-03-2007, 10:33 AM
You have a C Products magazine.

Right handed and left handed rifle packages based on a complete Stag Arms rifle. All packages include the bullet button mag lock and a 30 round mag (pinned by the factory for me to 10 rounds) you get the 30 round look you want while complying with the law. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50596

It very well could be C Products and Stag have cut a deal. That is my growing suspicion.

So Chris are you selling pinned Stag Arms magazines as it says in your advertisements or C Products 10/30 magazines? Why can't we get a definitive answer?

Cbieling
03-03-2007, 11:04 AM
I order my mags from Stag Arms directly from the company. The bottom of the floor plate says "Stag Arms" on it. I pay my invoices to Stag arms so I would say I am selling Stag Arms's magazines as stated in my post.

No smoke and mirrors here, order from Stag Arms get Stag Arms.

I personally have not spent time talking with their buyers and purchasing agents to find out where they get all their components for the assembly. Someone with more time can do that.

I order mags from DPMS also and I have to say they are DPMS Mags. I order mags from Sabre Defence so they are Sabre Defence. I don't sell C products so I can not speak of them but I guess I will need to start selling them to offer the full spectrum of products to the California customer.

I am also going to start bringing in Saiga's for you guys as well very soon....stayed tuned. I assume those mags are RAA?

Thanks guys,
Chris

tenpercentfirearms
03-03-2007, 11:35 AM
Time to put this one to rest then. It appears that C Products is selling their 10/30 magazines to Stag Arms, Stag Arms is putting their floor plate on them, and shipping them out as a Stag Arms magazine.

When you don't offer pictures of your product on your website, you don't give us a good description of how the magazine is made California legal, and all you can say is you did your research, I am sorry if I don't buy it. I also find it interesting that it was only by my prodding that we were ever able to get a good answer and it was only after a customer posted pictures of a product you already sent into the state. Then you blow it off like I was just "wasting our time" and we can now move on to more productive things.

In fact, I am a little pissed off because it appears the only research conducted on these magazines to make sure they were California legal was by me asking questions. I must admit, I was just duped into doing your legality check for you.

From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk.

gn3hz3ku1*
03-03-2007, 12:19 PM
to defend chris a bit--- he did say he will get a shipment in on monday and will post pics.

both of you have been great supported of calgunners. 10 percent has been doing it a bit longer and does have the exp and rep but chris is also starting to build a good rep

bobothebigdog
03-03-2007, 1:39 PM
Time to put this one to rest then. It appears that C Products is selling their 10/30 magazines to Stag Arms, Stag Arms is putting their floor plate on them, and shipping them out as a Stag Arms magazine.

When you don't offer pictures of your product on your website, you don't give us a good description of how the magazine is made California legal, and all you can say is you did your research, I am sorry if I don't buy it. I also find it interesting that it was only by my prodding that we were ever able to get a good answer and it was only after a customer posted pictures of a product you already sent into the state. Then you blow it off like I was just "wasting our time" and we can now move on to more productive things.

In fact, I am a little pissed off because it appears the only research conducted on these magazines to make sure they were California legal was by me asking questions. I must admit, I was just duped into doing your legality check for you.

From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk.

:rolleyes: I didn't get any of that from his posts. Are you worried that this will cut into your business?

G17GUY
03-03-2007, 9:37 PM
Time to put this one to rest then. It appears that C Products is selling their 10/30 magazines to Stag Arms, Stag Arms is putting their floor plate on them, and shipping them out as a Stag Arms magazine.

When you don't offer pictures of your product on your website, you don't give us a good description of how the magazine is made California legal, and all you can say is you did your research, I am sorry if I don't buy it. I also find it interesting that it was only by my prodding that we were ever able to get a good answer and it was only after a customer posted pictures of a product you already sent into the state. Then you blow it off like I was just "wasting our time" and we can now move on to more productive things.

In fact, I am a little pissed off because it appears the only research conducted on these magazines to make sure they were California legal was by me asking questions. I must admit, I was just duped into doing your legality check for you.

From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk.

So now that you spent so much time and effort into all of this, when are you going to drop the price on your C 10/30 magazines to $18.00?

thmpr
03-03-2007, 9:50 PM
Ohhh so Chris was looking out for us.....even our wallets...:D

Thank you Chris and Wes for supporting all our firearm needs.

Technical Ted
03-03-2007, 9:50 PM
I order mags from DPMS also and I have to say they are DPMS Mags.
I ordered some 6.8 mags from Midway. The say that they are DPMS mags. I get the mags from Midway and they have PRI plates.

They are PRI magazines.

That's the funny thing about DPMS. They word their copy to imply that they actually make the item when in reallity, the item is made by someone else.

Note: I just checked the DPMS website and noticed that they now credit PRI with manufacturing 'some" of their 6.8 mags. They now carry a 25 rd mag that looks suspiciously like a C Products mag.

mxpatriot51
03-03-2007, 9:55 PM
Personally, I cannot fathom why anyone would want a neutered 10/30 magazine. Why not get straight up 10 round magazines, like those from Bushmaster, that are beyond a doubt legal?

Put a Magpul on the bottom of a Bushmaster magazine and it's big enough to still be used in most magazine pouches. Guys who are reloading for speed in 3 gun matches use open top, single magazine carriers that work fine with ten rounders.

As far as the "look"; what does it really matter? I myself think that a 10 round magazine like the Bushmaster (protrudes slightly, with a little curve) looks great, especially in varmint and target AR's.

Instead of spending so much time on figuring out how to make sure you aren't in possession of an illegal magazine, we should be spending time lobbying to make real 30 round magazines legal.

Technical Ted
03-03-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm surprised (somewhat:rolleyes:) that no one has brought up Bill's post regarding the legality of these 10/30's.

http://64.151.69.37/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=39432

tenpercentfirearms
03-03-2007, 11:00 PM
So now that you spent so much time and effort into all of this, when are you going to drop the price on your C 10/30 magazines to $18.00?
Never. I can't continue to fight for our rights at a 12% markup. Chris will have to continue to take care of you on the outstanding deals end. My price might come down some if I start ordering them cheaper through Stag. C Products did a good job of royally screwing me.

Kevlarman
03-03-2007, 11:08 PM
I'd like to see a 10 rounder that looks exactly like the USGI 20-rounder (the Vietnam era straight body).

Technical Ted
03-03-2007, 11:11 PM
I'd like to see a 10 rounder that looks exactly like the USGI 20-rounder (the Vietnam era straight body).
In the works http://64.151.69.37/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50600

PLINK
03-03-2007, 11:36 PM
Guys who are reloading for speed in 3 gun matches use open top, single magazine carriers that work fine with ten rounders.

These 3 gun guys would really benefit from the U-15 stock. I would be interested in seeing some video of some 3 gun matches were guys are breaking open an AR to load.

Socal858
03-04-2007, 10:36 AM
Time to put this one to rest then. It appears that C Products is selling their 10/30 magazines to Stag Arms, Stag Arms is putting their floor plate on them, and shipping them out as a Stag Arms magazine.

When you don't offer pictures of your product on your website, you don't give us a good description of how the magazine is made California legal, and all you can say is you did your research, I am sorry if I don't buy it. I also find it interesting that it was only by my prodding that we were ever able to get a good answer and it was only after a customer posted pictures of a product you already sent into the state. Then you blow it off like I was just "wasting our time" and we can now move on to more productive things.

In fact, I am a little pissed off because it appears the only research conducted on these magazines to make sure they were California legal was by me asking questions. I must admit, I was just duped into doing your legality check for you.

From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk.



thank you very much wes and Edsel6502 for your concern and going out of your way to do whats right.

i believe this thread proves two things:

less importantly, the C products magazine is a well built unit, edsel's dissassembly will dispel some of the naysayers. thank you for taking it apart; cuban food is awesome by the way, it would have been better if my half cuban ex could cook:( . yes ive had problems with mine but ive worked it out now and it runs equally well as my bushmasters and loads/unloads much smoother.

more importantly, there are members like edsel and retailers like wes to make sure our products will comply to the letter of the law. our situation is different from that of the free states. we cant just order because we are verbally assured of compliance, more of yall should know, especially from the things you hear on arfcom, gunshows, gun shops, and ranges. you think the 49 other states know any better?

and on the thought that wes is freaking out because these mags are "cutting into his business?" do you really think that he has all his eggs in that one little basket? to me that is a silly thought and he has other things to do.

before you start lashing at at me for sounding liek a "wes cronie", ive ordered from many places in the industry in and out of the state (and most of the big names on arfcom), and wes has provided the highest level of service and responsibility

pewpewguns
03-04-2007, 10:46 AM
Going online and whining about a competitors business is not professional. Did you even bother to call him and work it out like a man? And about you making sure it was legal... I didn't know you were my lawyer all the sudden :rolleyes:

You made your company look really bad in this thread Wes.

thomye
03-04-2007, 12:21 PM
Going online and whining about a competitors business is not professional. Did you even bother to call him and work it out like a man? And about you making sure it was legal... I didn't know you were my lawyer all the sudden :rolleyes:

You made your company look really bad in this thread Wes.

+1

I'm not sure what the real issue is here. maybe you are looking out for us and charging us for it or maybe you don't like competition. I don't know and I don't care. Bottom line for me, i like saving money and i like good customer service. I'm certain that if Chris's "Stag" mags fed 9 or 11, he'd take it back personally and set us up with new ones.

Here is a disclaimer from 10% site:
Note: Sometimes the components used to build this magazines have slightly different dimensions and the magazine might only be able to load 9 rounds or the 10th round does not leave enough room to cycle the firearm. If this occurs Ten Percent Firearms will not exchange the magazine. However you can send the magazine back to:

not only are you charging $12 more for the same mag but you don't even bother exchanging them for us. not sure what i'd be paying to be honest. So in response to risk: maybe people are shopping at their own risk when going to 10%. The risk of going broke.

mxpatriot51
03-04-2007, 3:42 PM
These 3 gun guys would really benefit from the U-15 stock. I would be interested in seeing some video of some 3 gun matches were guys are breaking open an AR to load.

I'm referring to guys who use either the U-15 or a Monsterman grip (no ban rifle) with detachable magazines (post-ban, limited to 10 rounds).

Your butt would get smoked if you tried to top load an AR during a match.

Geoffkoop
03-04-2007, 4:10 PM
Going online and whining about a competitors business is not professional. Did you even bother to call him and work it out like a man? And about you making sure it was legal... I didn't know you were my lawyer all the sudden :rolleyes:

You made your company look really bad in this thread Wes.

+1
This whole thing was handled very immaturely...should of went to USC.
:D

Jicko
03-04-2007, 4:29 PM
That's a wonderful deal for CA consumers!! ;-)

Chris, you said that you have 50 coming in monday right? I'm ordering some from you, but I do ONLY want the ones that has the Magpul followers (ie. Stag/C-product) magazines....

Stag is known to ship whatever they have.... originally, their 10rounders are Bushmaster's only having the Bushmaster logo sanded away.... and then they got their flushed 10rounders... and now they have C-products 10/30....

tenpercentfirearms
03-04-2007, 7:48 PM
You guys misunderstood me. The issue is not whether they hold ten rounds or not. The question I asked in response to them being listed as "pinned" is how are they pinned? Not once did we ever get a straight answer on how they were "pinned". We were only told that they are legal. I asked again, what made them legal and we still never got an answer.

I used as an example the fact that many PRI 6.8mm ten round magazines were sent into this state by numerous FFLs and PRI directly that held 11 rounds instead of 10 as an illustration of how you should never take anyone's word on if it is legal or not. You most certainly should never believe an FFL to know what he is talking about. This magazine will most likely not have any 10 vs. 11 issues. The issue at hand is how are they "pinned" in to make them permanently hold 10 rounds. Collectively this group is much smarter than I will ever be and we benefit from having it discussed in the open.

The reason I am upset is we never got a straight answer. Not once. It was only through my constant questions that we finally had a customer post up pictures of this magazine. It was then that we discovered that the "Stag Magazine" was in fact the same C Products magazine that I had been importing for quite some time and had already figured out was well built and legal, but just with a Stag floorplate.

Then I became even more upset because I look like an "immature arse" for questioning how these magazines were pinned so you can guys can remain legal and not go to prison for having a felony. We not once received a straight answer from Chris. Not once. The only reassurances we had was that he did his research.

Let me give you some numbers so you can understand this thing. I buy these same magazines from C Products for $20. I mark them up 50% and sell them for $30. I make money where I can. I make like 15% on a $400+ Stag upper so of course I am going to try and make money where I can. It is with this money that my business will grow and I can continue to offer you new products and new lines.

Was I upset to find that C Products never informed me that they decided to sell these magazines to Stag so cheap that Stag can sell the magazines for $16? You bet. Is it upsetting that Chris sells them for $18 and only makes 12% to send them in? Not really. Chris has to make his own business decisions. If Chris can afford to make 12% on a magazine or 3% on a Stag 2HT upper and still stay in business, then he is doing something right.

Luckily I can either tell C Products to lower my price on the magazines to match Stags and sell them for $25 or just buy them straight from Stag. This is not the end of the world for me.

I now know, anything else you guys want to buy from an out of state vendor who likes to flood the market with severely discounted prices without giving a clear explination of the legality of such product, I will keep my mouth shut. That is what I am most upset about. I look petty and immature because I was asking the questions you guys didn't want to ask. Questions you didn't want to ask because you only care about how cheap you can get something.

From now on when dealers start working on side deals through e-mail about legality instead of discussing it on this open forum for everyone to know, don't be surprised when we all lose.

As far as my current C Products magazines and what capacity they hold or don't hold. C Products requested I have you send the magazines back directly. It is their magazine. They build them. The issue isn't about the legality, it is about some people paying for a 10 round magazine and getting a 9 rounder. If you are not happy, send it back to C Products as they requested and they will evaluate the magazine and fix it. Sending it back to me just takes longer and won't fix the situation in the long term.

markymark
03-04-2007, 8:24 PM
While I appreciate Wes's role in bringing in lowers into this state, I feel this situation could have been better handled through PMs.

gn3hz3ku1*
03-04-2007, 8:27 PM
I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding going around, the biggest problem with forums.

Wes I am very appreciative of your contributions to calguns but i do recall chris saying he will get a shipment in on monday and take it apart.

I can see why many people thought you were attacking chris.. and i have to admit i thought so too but also do understand your frustrations and that you have to make a living.

Chris does have a right to make less on his products and although i have never bought from him yet, i have always heard good things about him. I have brought from you and have nothing but good things to say. so please dont take it the wrong way when many of us order the mags and save 12 dollars you might lose out on the mags but you will make it up in other areas.

I believe that with some of the senior members and your help, OLLs have become possible and we will contrinue to support you. hopefully cproducts can match you

bwiese
03-04-2007, 8:45 PM
I applaud Wes for looking into this.

This was not about 'competition'. Wes has a sincere interest in keeping folks legal and out of trouble - even if they buy from a competitor.

The other guy can sit outside CA and may not give too much care about legal details.

He's outside of CA, just got into this gig and is stepping up way beyond offering lowers. I wonder really how much of the CA law he understands.

I was somewhat troubled by his offer to sell FN PS90s to folks, without clear assistance in making them legal - though I guess the local CA FFL should help.
Rifles like the PS90 take some care to get into a legal configuration, and I still feel there could be possible exposure (or a 'big fight') for folks getting these without the means/skills to render them into CA legal form.

There's already folks out there that think pinning mags into OLLs makes them legal and they don't even worry about 10 rd vs hicap issues.

tenpercentfirearms
03-04-2007, 8:57 PM
so please dont take it the wrong way when many of us order the mags and save 12 dollars you might lose out on the mags but you will make it up in other areas.

I give up, you guys still think this is about $12. You still think this is about competition. This has been and will always be about not getting a straight answer from a vendor on a product that has dire legal consequences if not done right.

Turns out it was the same old mag that we already know was good at just a new lower price. Had it been something else, well here is what John Kennedy said.

Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan.

thmpr
03-04-2007, 9:02 PM
I applaud Wes for looking into this.

This was not about 'competition'. Wes has a sincere interest in keeping folks legal and out of trouble - even if they buy from a competitor.

Comment: I agree that both Chris and Wes are supporting CA with all our firearm needs.

The other guy can sit outside CA and may not give too much care about legal details.

Comment: I disagree, since I have dealt with Chris since 2005. He was skeptical about bringing in the Stags from the get go. but Once I informed him of the legality and provided your Faq sheet with the CA AW guide, it took several months before he agreed with its legality. Chris also, read up on the Laws before he sold me my first lower. The problem at the beggining was finding an FFL to do the transfer.

He's outside of CA, just got into this gig and is stepping up way beyond offering lowers. I wonder really how much of the CA law he understands.

Comment: See my statement above.

I was somewhat troubled by his offer to sell FN PS90s to folks, without clear assistance in making them legal - though I guess the local CA FFL should help.
Rifles like the PS90 take some care to get into a legal configuration, and I still feel there could be possible exposure (or a 'big fight') for folks getting these without the means/skills to render them into CA legal form.

Comment: He is currently looking into making these legal before he brings them in. And actually he is working with a few vendors here.

There's already folks out there that think pinning mags into OLLs makes them legal and they don't even worry about 10 rd vs hicap issues.

Comment: Overall, Chris cares and not only looking at the mighty dollar. Look at his prices...very reasonable!



Thanks!

PLINK
03-04-2007, 9:09 PM
Well OK then. Stag mag appears to be good to go. I don't think there is really anything more to say to that topic. Stick a fork in this thread because it done.

bwiese
03-04-2007, 9:10 PM
I give up, you guys still think this is about $12. You still think this is about competition. This has been and will always be about not getting a straight answer from a vendor on a product that has dire legal consequences if not done right.


Yeah, Wes, some folks don't get that we're just trying to keep people out of the cooler.

It's not about the friggin' nickels.

pewpewguns
03-04-2007, 9:23 PM
It's nice that Bill and Wes are trying to look out for the common good of Californians, but theres only so much you guys can do. It's everyones legal responsibility to follow the letter and intent of the law.

Demanding information from a dealer and than saying "From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk." is inappropriate. Purchase all firearm related products at your own risk. Chris at Lanworld doesn't need to tell you a thing about his merchandise. If your not satisfied with his product information than don't buy from him.

tenpercentfirearms
03-04-2007, 9:44 PM
Demanding information from a dealer and than saying "From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk." is inappropriate. Purchase all firearm related products at your own risk. Chris at Lanworld doesn't need to tell you a thing about his merchandise. If your not satisfied with his product information than don't buy from him.I just feel unbelievably betrayed by this whole thread. Here I thought we were a firearms community that was supposed to look out for one another. I thought the whole point of this place was share information to make sure we are following the law. I have never been in this to just make a buck and let people worry about their own legality. That is why I had a lower form that everyone had to sign. That is why we discussed the C Products 10/30 magazine in detail when Metroshot and I started selling them.

Now a few of you don't care what is legal or illegal as long as you get your products dirt cheap. What makes me even more worried is that is is obvious you all know the law and can figure it out for yourself. However, you don't care for the guy who just believes what he hears and doesn't question the law. "If a dealer sells it, it must be legal."

Had it not been for MY questions and MY research by calling Stag, calling C Products, and being a pain the side, Edsel would have never posted those pictures. Chris wasn't posting pictures. He wasn't offering details. He said when he got in HIS NEXT SHIPMENT, he would post some pictures. He already sold a bunch into the state without fully explaining what makes them legal.

I am not going to back down on this. I don't care if you think I am being petty or not. My reputation took a hit so I could make sure you are getting legal magazines. You guys continue to insult me by thinking I am upset he is going to beat me out on these magazines. I can buy them from Stag cheap. I can sell them cheap. How many more times do I have to tell you that is not the issue.

That is my problem. I don't know when to just say screw it and let things be. I am too honest for this business. The sad thing is if I weren't a vendor, this questioning would have never been an issue. I might be a vendor, but I am still a resident of California fighting for our rights in California. I will make sure you guys have all the information you need to make a wise decision. Only a fool would not see that if Chris is selling the same exact magazines that I am for $12 less, they should buy them from Chris. Again, how did we find out whose magazines they were? Not from Stag. Not from C Products. Not from Chris. It was my questioning and Edsel's pictures and then again my confirming those are C Products magazines.

If this was about the money I would have made excuses and made things up. Instead, I told the truth. Those are C Products magazines. That is a killer deal on them. And what do you guys accuse me of? Being petty and getting involved in other people's business.

Someone take the knife out of my back.

Paratus et Vigilans
03-04-2007, 9:55 PM
I for one appreciate immensely the degree of care Wes puts into his business. I know from personal experience that Wes cares about his customers staying legal, and that means a lot to me.

I also know that Wes works hard to offer us things at a fair price. Like everyone else, I appreciate getting something for a good price. I also want to make sure that Wes, and any other business I patronize, is getting enough out of the deal to make a fair profit, because if they don't, they aren't going to be around next month, or next year. I personally value the long term business relationship over the best price. Sometimes Wes has the best price on what I'm looking for, sometimes not. That's okay. I'm buying my stuff from Wes because he bends over backwards to get me what I'm looking for even when he's not making much on the sale. Wes has even told me - several times in fact - when to get what I'm looking for from someone else if it's going to get me a better price. I appreciate that. That's what customer service is all about.

Reading this thread, you can see that Wes' issue with Chris was all about getting a straight answer to a direct question on a matter of serious legal consequences for OLL owners in California. Chris didn't seem to appreciate the seriousness of the issue. Wes hung in like a bulldog until a clear answer became available. It was never about competition for our business. It was about the legal issue. Chris is out of state and it seems that he is not yet completely in touch with the silly but serious legal issues we have to deal with over here. CWS are out of state too, but they get it. Michelle and Hector are very careful that they don't sell or ship us anything that's going to get us in trouble.

Chris is new to the scene, and he's clearly looking to build market share on low prices. That's fair enough. However, IMHO, Chris needs to take a lesson from Wes and CWS on being sure, before he sells something into California, that he's not going to put a customer in jeopardy of unwittingly committing a felony. "Close enough" is NOT good enough when the downside risk is a felony charge or conviction.

We're all big boys and girls here, and we all bear responsibility for our own actions. That being said, be smart. Be careful. Appreciate those who care enough to be careful on out behalves when we might be letting our guards down because a low price makes something look attractive.

So, that's my sermon for the evening. Thank you Wes, Michelle and Hector for all you've done and continue to do for us. Chris, welcome to the California OLL market. Watch and learn.

BTW, Wes. . . . I'm going to be needing another Stag lower from you for the NRA High Power Service Rifle build I'm putting together. I'll send you an e-mail with the list of parts I need! :D

Oh, and I took the "really evil looking build" out for a spin at the range this afternoon, finally got it sighted in properly both with the scope and the BUIS, and it is SWEET! That Daniel Defense 12.0 free floating rail on the 20" barrel really gets a lot of attention, especially since I mated it to a Magpul PRS stock.

http://64.151.69.37/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2927&d=1173077628

I guess that makes it really "tacticool"! :cool:

thmpr
03-04-2007, 10:17 PM
Wow, I cant believe what I am reading. Chris was in the ball game since the end of 2005 and was very relectunt in selling any OLL until he got the whole story of its legalities.
I personally bought items from Wes and Chris and commend both of them for doing so. But to state Chris as only looking for $$$, ???. From 2005 and 2006, bought lowers from Chris for $105.00 ea. and today he sells it for $100.00 which is far and beyond of what I would call selling items at a low cost to get a niche in the market.
Chris could have easily post items for sale back then and undersold many of the vendors here today. But only he can answer why he did not.
Not once I heard Chris bash other vendors here and thank him for that. Shows what type of a person he is.

Wes,
Thank you for openly selling the lowers and having the products we need to build our ARs.

Chris,
Thank you for providing CA great prices and supporting us since 2005. You have as much to lose here and I thank you for being so professional in all your dealings.

Thanks!
Done on this thread.

RossRinSD
03-04-2007, 10:22 PM
I'm not as eloquent as most of u guys on here... But these legal questions are legitimate concerns of mine and most of the other guys on this board.

I wouldn't have even questioned the legality, and safety of those mags. But, Wes was asking specific questions and he wasn't getting direct answers. That concerned me. The shifty answers really seemed like there was something to hide even when there wasn't...

But hey Wes, I ask questions on here that people seem to think are stupid all the time. I don't understand why some people get so ticked off sometimes... But I don't see how asking legitimate questions could have tarnished your reputation, not in my eyes anywayz. Getting a bottom line price isn't the only reason I spend money, though it helps :) I, sir, will continue to spend my money at your website. Thankz for taking AMEX and doing away with the cash discount :D

MysteryCereal
03-04-2007, 10:28 PM
Wow, some of you guys just turned your back on a guy who has been helping ALL of us out for quite some time...all over $12 bucks. I don't know anything about Chris or LanWorld, and I don't have anything against him. But I feel no regret in buying a mag off Wes. I'd do it again too, least I could do to repay him for all the help he has done. I can understand a newbie coming in here and whining over $12 but seeing some Senior Members act like that...damn shame.

Socal858
03-04-2007, 10:31 PM
phew. i posted before i went to work this morning and i thought i was the only one who wasnt mad at wes over 12 dollars lol :)

MysteryCereal
03-04-2007, 10:32 PM
phew. i posted before i went to work this morning and i thought i was the only one who wasnt mad at wes over 12 dollars lol :)


Must be a San Diego thing :-p

bwiese
03-04-2007, 10:34 PM
I will add here that I don't think Chris was trying to be evasive.

I sincerely think he just thought "10 rounds is 10 rounds" and he just may not have been aware of 'how permanent is the 10rd restriction' is. This permanence is a very, very key issue to the legality of the mag itself, and more importantly - since we're in felony territory! - the legality of a fixed-mag OLL build based on such a magazine.

I must admit that I am not at all a fan of "looks like hicap" magazines, but it appears some vendor(s) that some dealers (including Wes) deal with have found suitable mags that are truly permanently restricted to 10rds.

[I will also offer my compliments here to users JPGLee1 and Rssslvr who do permanent restrictions to AK mag buildups: these look like 30s but it'd take a nuke to disassemble or change them - and thus they clearly meet the 'permanence' standard in 12276.1(d)(2)PC.]

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 6:41 AM
I'd like to see a 10 rounder that looks exactly like the USGI 20-rounder (the Vietnam era straight body).

Bushmaster sells them on their website, for use in NRA High Power Service Rifle competitions. They're steel bodied, and no bargain (no discounts at all from Bushmaster, ever!), but that's one place to get them. As for how they're limited to 10 rds, there's an extra indent in the tube all the way down each side, from the 10 rd limit line to the bottom of the mag, that keeps the follower from going down far enough to take more than 10 rounds.

xrMike
03-05-2007, 7:01 AM
:rolleyes: I didn't get any of that from his posts. Are you worried that this will cut into your business?EDIT: Comments removed by author. Upon re-reading, they added nothing of value to the conversation.

mxpatriot51
03-05-2007, 7:03 AM
I just feel unbelievably betrayed by this whole thread. Here I thought we were a firearms community that was supposed to look out for one another. I thought the whole point of this place was share information to make sure we are following the law. I have never been in this to just make a buck and let people worry about their own legality. That is why I had a lower form that everyone had to sign. That is why we discussed the C Products 10/30 magazine in detail when Metroshot and I started selling them.

Now a few of you don't care what is legal or illegal as long as you get your products dirt cheap. What makes me even more worried is that is is obvious you all know the law and can figure it out for yourself. However, you don't care for the guy who just believes what he hears and doesn't question the law. "If a dealer sells it, it must be legal."

Had it not been for MY questions and MY research by calling Stag, calling C Products, and being a pain the side, Edsel would have never posted those pictures. Chris wasn't posting pictures. He wasn't offering details. He said when he got in HIS NEXT SHIPMENT, he would post some pictures. He already sold a bunch into the state without fully explaining what makes them legal.

I am not going to back down on this. I don't care if you think I am being petty or not. My reputation took a hit so I could make sure you are getting legal magazines. You guys continue to insult me by thinking I am upset he is going to beat me out on these magazines. I can buy them from Stag cheap. I can sell them cheap. How many more times do I have to tell you that is not the issue.

That is my problem. I don't know when to just say screw it and let things be. I am too honest for this business. The sad thing is if I weren't a vendor, this questioning would have never been an issue. I might be a vendor, but I am still a resident of California fighting for our rights in California. I will make sure you guys have all the information you need to make a wise decision. Only a fool would not see that if Chris is selling the same exact magazines that I am for $12 less, they should buy them from Chris. Again, how did we find out whose magazines they were? Not from Stag. Not from C Products. Not from Chris. It was my questioning and Edsel's pictures and then again my confirming those are C Products magazines.

If this was about the money I would have made excuses and made things up. Instead, I told the truth. Those are C Products magazines. That is a killer deal on them. And what do you guys accuse me of? Being petty and getting involved in other people's business.

Someone take the knife out of my back.

Well, I'm going to have to side with Wes on this one. He did the research, asked the questions, and finally got the answers (although not from lanworld). This obviously shows that he is looking out for the firearms community; and lanworld's lack of concern over whether 10 truly does equal 10 worries me.

To me, lanworld seems to think "Stag says it's ten, it's ten". PRI 6.8 magazines proved that wrong. Fitting that one extra round in the magazine might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people (especially out of staters who don't live under a ban); but here in CA, it will land your butt in prison.

If Wes was out solely to make money, would he be telling us the amount of mark up on his products or that Lanworld is selling the same magazines $12 cheaper? What I find even more amazing is that some shooters are willing to risk their freedom on saving $12.

Myself, I see no need for the these fake high capacity magazines. Come on now, are we ten years old? Doing it for the "looks". Risking your freedom on whether or not a judge or jury finds little indentations in the magazine body to be considered permanent?

Bushmaster's ten round magazines are fine for me. They protrude enough to be easy to grab, remove, and insert. Like Bill W. said, if that magazine is not considered permanent in the eyes of the law and it is inserted into the weapon (fixed magazine), you have an AW and a whole lot of potential for prison time on your hands.

xrMike
03-05-2007, 7:23 AM
Fitting that one extra round in the magazine might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people (especially out of staters who don't live under a ban); but here in CA, it will land your butt in prison.Am I the only one who's unconcerned about the whole 10 vs. 11 thing?

Anybody been busted for high cap mags yet (that anybody knows of)?

If you use your weapon responsibly and don't act like a dumbass at the range, and if you don't commit any crimes with it, and you transport it legally, and you don't beat up your wife so the cops come and take your guns and look for other things to charge you with, what are your chances this will ever be an issue? Slim-to-none, I'm guessing...

I think if a cop is going to bust me for 10 vs. 11, then he's also going to bust me for using a bullet button, or for having an illegal "assault weapon", and chances are he was going to bust me all along no matter what because either: 1) he's a total dick, or 2) he's not a dick at all -- I was the dick -- and I deserve to be busted for doing something else that was really, really stupid.

mxpatriot51
03-05-2007, 7:32 AM
Am I the only one who's unconcerned about the whole 10 vs. 11 thing?

Anybody been busted for high cap mags yet (that anybody knows of)?

If you use your weapon responsibly and don't act like a dumbass at the range, and if you don't commit any crimes with it, and you transport it legally, and you don't beat up your wife so the cops come and take your guns and look for other things to charge you with, what are your chances this will ever be an issue? Slim-to-none, I'm guessing...

I think if a cop is going to bust me for 10 vs. 11, then he's also going to bust me for using a bullet button, or for having an illegal "assault weapon", and chances are he was going to bust me all along no matter what because either: 1) he's a total dick, or 2) he's not a dick at all -- I was the dick -- and I deserve to be busted for doing something else that was really, really stupid.

I agree with the last paragraph, the top two I'm going to have to disagree with. The chances of being busted on a 10 vs. 11 magazine without having done anything stupid are slim to none; like winning the lottery. Guess what, people do with the lottery. In this case, you wouldn't want to be that one-in-a-million and spend time in the slammer over having one extra round.

mxpatriot51
03-05-2007, 7:39 AM
After having just read this thread, I ventured into the commercial sales area and saw something I really didn't like:

1. Chris/Lanworld had P90's up for sale (16'' barrel). As sold, they were not in a legal configuration for the CA market. On top of that, they don't meet the 30'' overall length requirement. To get these rifles to point where you could legally use a detachable magazine, you'd have to:
a. Fill the thumbhole stock and remove/fill the forward grip.
b. Remove the permanent flash hider and replace with something else (permanent) to keep the barrel at 16''.
c. Add 4'' to the rifle, somehow, in a way that the DOJ would approve.

If you tried to fix the magazine, it would be a home built kit and in court it would your interpretation vs. the judge's. It's not like putting a bullet button on, you would be the pioneer and the one to take the fall should the DOJ come down on it.

I have yet to see a P90 with these modifications to it, and I doubt the DOJ would smile upon this at all. Trying to sell these things into CA is putting the consumer at far to great of a risk of getting into illegal territory, in my opinion.

This does not earn good marks for lanworld in my book. That's not looking after the CA market, that's trying to capitalize on it regardless of the legality; which puts the buyer in serious legal territory.

taquito971
03-05-2007, 7:56 AM
If you tried to fix the magazine, it would be a home built kit and in court it would your interpretation vs. the judge's. It's not like putting a bullet button on, you would be the pioneer and the one to take the fall should the DOJ come down on it.


I'm not sure what happened here but the above is BS. The man behind the bullet button is not going to take the fall, you will take the fall.

Brian

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 8:08 AM
Am I the only one who's unconcerned about the whole 10 vs. 11 thing?

No, clearly you have some company in the "I'm not worried about it" column, but here's how easy it is for 11 rounds to make you a felon without you doing anything out of the ordinary with your OLL:

You go to the range, any range, your usual favorite range, with your pinned "10 round mag" in your OLL black rifle. You stand there in your lane, you open up the rifle, and you load up your "10 round mag." You don't count how many rounds you put in it, you just load it until it won't take another round. You close it up, you shoot until it's empty, you repeat. Someone else at the range is watching you - because people DO tend to notice and watch the black rifle shooters at the range, and not all of them are envious - some of them think you and your black rifle are evil. Anyway, your nosey neighbor notices that you seem to be getting more than 10 shots off each time before you reload. Next cycle through they count you getting off 11 shots instead of 10. They report you to an LEO who's also at the range, getting in some practice time, who comes down the line, asks to see your weapon, checks out your "10 round magazine" and sees that it actually takes 11 rounds and works just fine that way. You may get a warning from an OLL friendly LEO to get rid of that offending mag. Or, you may be off for a night in the grey bar hotel. At that point, you are at the mercy of the LEO, and standing right over his/her shoulder watching what he/she does with you is the complaining nosey neighbor. Your night of fun at the range just went way, way downhill.

Do I know anyone to whom that has happened? No. Have I heard of it happening? No. Do I want to be the test case? No.

You have every right to be cavalier about the hi-cap mag ban and the effect of pinning one into an OLL. I'm sure lots of people probably are. On a scale of probability, from 1 to 10, it's a very low probability, like lower than a 1, that you'll ever have a problem running an 11 round capable mag in a mag-pinned OLL. However, the consequences that would flow from getting busted for it are in the 10+ range, unless of course a felony charge is no big deal to you. For me, it's a huge deal, and would prevent me from practicing my chosen profession. So, I'm anal retentive about my OLL builds. For me, it's not a risk that's worth taking. Your situation may be different, and you're free to act accordingly.

By way of example, I bought a new Beretta 92FS a few months back, and when I went back to pick it up after my 10 day wait and went to perform the safety test at the gun store, I noticed then, for the first time, that the two mags that came with the gun were hi caps. Oops. I told the folks at the gun store, thanks, I'd love to have these 15 rounders, I really would, but I don't get to have them, so could we swap them out for the 10 rounders? Problem solved, no harm, no foul. Someone else might have thought, "Sweet!" and kept them, thinking they just "got lucky." I guess it all comes down to what you stand to lose if you don't follow the admittedly stupid California firearms laws to the letter. I'm risk averse when it comes to my ability to earn money and vote.

That's why I appreciate Wes' bulldog attitude on this issue. Wes isn't just a FFL, he's a shooter. He lives and shoots in the frontier County of Kern, which is about as OLL friendly as it gets in this state - unless the proposed takeover of that small far north county by Calgunners actually happens - and yet he sticks to the letter of the law in his own builds. Why? Felony bust = no more FFL.

So no, you're not the only one who's not concerned about the whole 10 vs. 11 thing. But, as Iggy Pop (not Iggy Chin!) so famously said, "You pays your money and you takes your choice." That's about the ONLY thing Iggy Pop ever said that's clean enough to quote him on. :)

Geoffkoop
03-05-2007, 8:22 AM
Are we all forgetting Chris said he was getting his shipment on Monday???
If you ever deal with Chris, you will see that he has good intentions.

Jicko
03-05-2007, 8:23 AM
Next cycle through they count you getting off 11 shots instead of 10. They report you to an LEO who's also at the range, getting in some practice time, who comes down the line, asks to see your weapon, checks out your "10 round magazine" and sees that it actually takes 11 rounds and works just fine that way.

Now with the Bullet-Button, you can technically do 11 shots... 10 + 1.... :D

Guys, relax.... play safe... I love my black rifles... so when I have them in my car, I don't even try *speeding*....

Cbieling
03-05-2007, 8:46 AM
List,

Let us continue with the discussion.

I placed a call today to C-Products and had a nice conversation with the owner about his magazine products. He specifically told me the he does "not" sell to Stag Arms and has not sold anything in over a year. So those mags are either 1 year old surplus stock or Stag is outsourcing to another vender or making them at their parent company.

He also told me that he will only sell his 30/10 round pinned/blocked mags to 2 venders in California. He has a exclusivity with those 2 venders only. I respect that so I will not pursue buying those types of magazines from him.

Understanding the California legalities:

So everyone understands where I am on this whole thing, I am a vender to several dealers in California. I call dealers daily in California to test the waters on products before I even think about offering them to the California customers. Several on this board get daily PM's from me asking for feedback as well. I will not offer anything to anyone out of state until I get the blessing from business owners in that state. I do deal with the entire US, including NY and MD who also have interesting gun laws. If a California dealer gives me the green light then I will continue.

I offered the PS90 to the list as a pre curser to the "California legal" kit that I am working on with a California Aerospace company. This should be ready in about 2-3 weeks then you will have a California legal PS90's. I already have dealers in California that want to start stocking that rifle as soon as the kit comes out.

I have been dealing with California for several years now and have a pretty solid understanding on what flies vs. grey area vs. no-go. I always welcome feedback and concerns and as always offer a no hassle return policy on any item I sell.

On a side note, I personally asked a current customer to post pictures on the forum as I had just shipped a mag to him and I personally did not have any in stock. I did not want anyone to wait for these pictures so I called a customer and asked for a favor to post the mag pictures, which he did.

I am also working with SIG of Germany to bring in accessories for the SIG 556 which will help it look like a SIG 550.

I have a lot of irons in the fire for you guys and with time you will understand that I truly am trying to help out the California gun owner and collector.

I harbor no ill feelings toward any other vender and actually work with quite a few to help out everyone.

If anyone has any questions please ask and I will be happy to clear the air.

Thanks Wes for the nice phone call and I look forward to mutually doing business in the future.

Regards,
Chris

Cbieling
03-05-2007, 8:46 AM
List,

I placed a call today to C-Products and had a nice conversation with the owner about his magazine products. He specifically told me the he does "not" sell to Stag Arms and has not sold anything in over a year. So those mags are either 1 year old surplus stock or Stag is outsourcing to another vender or making them at their parent company.

He also told me that he will only sell his 30/10 round pinned/blocked mags to 2 venders in California. He has a exclusivity with those 2 venders only. I respect that so I will not pursue buying those types of magazines from him.

Understanding the California legalities:

So everyone understands where I am on this whole thing, I am a vender to several dealers in California. I call dealers daily in California to test the waters on products before I even think about offering them to the California customers. Several on this board get daily PM's from me asking for feedback as well. I will not offer anything to anyone out of state until I get the blessing from business owners in that state. I do deal with the entire US, including NY and MD who also have interesting gun laws. If a California dealer gives me the green light then I will continue.

I offered the PS90 to the list as a pre curser to the "California legal" kit that I am working on with a California Aerospace company. This should be ready in about 2-3 weeks then you will have a California legal PS90's. I already have dealers in California that want to start stocking that rifle as soon as the kit comes out.

I have been dealing with California for several years now and have a pretty solid understanding on what flies vs. grey area vs. no-go. I always welcome feedback and concerns and as always offer a no hassle return policy on any item I sell.

On a side note, I personally asked a current customer to post pictures on the forum as I had just shipped a mag to him and I personally did not have any in stock. I did not want anyone to wait for these pictures so I called a customer and asked for a favor to post the mag pictures, which he did.

I am also working with SIG of Germany to bring in accessories for the SIG 556 which will help it look like a SIG 550.

I have a lot of irons in the fire for you guys and with time you will understand that I truly am trying to help out the California gun owner and collector.

I harbor no ill feelings toward any other vender and actually work with quite a few to help out everyone.

If anyone has any questions please ask and I will be happy to clear the air.

Thanks Wes for the nice phone call and I look forward to mutually doing business in the future.

Regards,
Chris

stator
03-05-2007, 8:55 AM
Well, I'm going to have to side with Wes on this one. He did the research, asked the questions, and finally got the answers (although not from lanworld). This obviously shows that he is looking out for the firearms community; and lanworld's lack of concern over whether 10 truly does equal 10 worries me.

To me, lanworld seems to think "Stag says it's ten, it's ten". PRI 6.8 magazines proved that wrong. Fitting that one extra round in the magazine might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people (especially out of staters who don't live under a ban); but here in CA, it will land your butt in prison.

If Wes was out solely to make money, would he be telling us the amount of mark up on his products or that Lanworld is selling the same magazines $12 cheaper? What I find even more amazing is that some shooters are willing to risk their freedom on saving $12.

Myself, I see no need for the these fake high capacity magazines. Come on now, are we ten years old? Doing it for the "looks". Risking your freedom on whether or not a judge or jury finds little indentations in the magazine body to be considered permanent?

Bushmaster's ten round magazines are fine for me. They protrude enough to be easy to grab, remove, and insert. Like Bill W. said, if that magazine is not considered permanent in the eyes of the law and it is inserted into the weapon (fixed magazine), you have an AW and a whole lot of potential for prison time on your hands.

Good point. Too bad we all did not treat the poster with concerns regarding Wes' 10/30 CProducts mag in the same way.

tenpercentfirearms
03-05-2007, 9:03 AM
I just got off the phone with Chris, Stag, and C Products. Here is what went down.

Chris from Lanworld ordered a 10 round magazine from Stag. They sent him one of these 10/30 rounds instead. He called them on it and they said it does only hold 10 rounds. Chris checked it, it only held ten rounds, he thought cool and decided to sell them.

Chris was not aware of the bigger issues surrounding the modification of these magazines. Stag says they are legal, they only hold ten rounds, what more do you need to know?

I know there is more to making a fake 10/30 because I have been doing this for a while. I ask Chris about it, he doesn't have anymore in stock, and he gives the best answer he can with his limited information from Stag. To his credit he has Edsel post up a picture of them and describe them, at which time we discover these are not "pinned" magazines, but actual C Products 10/30 magazines that have already been thoroughly evaluated.

When I called Stag on Friday and again today, they have no clue what they are selling. The guy I talked to today had no clue. I asked him if they were tabbed. He stated no that they were pinned. If the pictures Chris are posting are correct, then that proves Stag has no clue what they are talking about.

In Chris's defense it is hard for him to give an adequate evaluation on magazines he doesn't have on hand, that the vendor doesn't know anything about, and that he didn't realize there were bigger issues on.

To finally put this thing to rest. This is not about Lanworld, Ten Percent Firearms, profits, or rivalry. This whole episode was always about you! The California shooter. The question was always, "What product is Stag now selling and is it California legal?"

The issue with these magazines is not whether they hold 10 or 11 rounds. I am sorry I confused you guys with that example. The issue on these magazines is are they permanently modified to make them incapable of holding more than 10 rounds? If they are "pinned" as Stag claims, can you remove the pin with a little work, shoot them as 30s, and then re-install the pin? At the price Stag is selling them, are they really stainless steel magazines or are they aluminum? If the are aluminum, can you bend the tab flush with the magazine and shoot high capacity magazines and then bend the tab back when you are done? With aluminum can you just bend the tab out and break it off and have a high capacity magazine?

I am publically apologizing to Lanworld for any rift this has caused. I think it was a misunderstanding. There needed to be more information on these magazines. He didn't have it. In hindsight it is clear he was trusting Stag to know what they were talking about. You can tell by his answers he did not understand these magazines are about more than 10 round capacity. He checked them and figured they were good to go. Are they permanently fixed is the question.

Lets put this whole saga behind us and just use this as a lesson. Do not rely on just us dealers to give you a "trust me" on the legality of these products. They need to be thoroughly evaluated and looked at in the public sphere. When we bring these issues out and discuss them and get to the bottom of the issue, we all win.

This whole saga is an example. After careful evaluation, we discovered that not only are these new Stag mags legal, but a heck of a lot cheaper than what I have been selling them for. You win in this whole deal. I guess in the future Lanworld and I can work on this together and I would have probably been able to warn him in time to get him to keep the price up at $25. :D

This was never about the price, it was always about legality. We need to keep these legal discussions in the open for everyone's benefit.

tenpercentfirearms
03-05-2007, 9:13 AM
I think if a cop is going to bust me for 10 vs. 11, then he's also going to bust me for using a bullet button, or for having an illegal "assault weapon", and chances are he was going to bust me all along no matter what because either: 1) he's a total dick, or 2) he's not a dick at all -- I was the dick -- and I deserve to be busted for doing something else that was really, really stupid.The problem with your example is if he busts you for having a bullet button, you can fight it and the law is on your side. All of calguns will support you in your fight.

If he busts you for having a fixed magazine rifle with over 10 rounds, he has you dead to rights and you are going to prison, unless you can get an infraction under AB2728.

You are lumping what is "our opinion" legal activity in with what is clearly illegal activity. Do you really want to suggest others take the same attitude that could very well land them in jail?

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 9:14 AM
Okay, so then. . . Chris and Wes. . .

Since you guys are so adept at cleaning up messy misunderstandings, if you have some spare time, could you two work on clearing up the Israeli/Palestinian thing, and also that deal between the Sunni and the Shia?

Seriously, glad to see that everyone's on the same page now! :)

bwiese
03-05-2007, 9:56 AM
Good show, guys!

edsel6502
03-05-2007, 10:02 AM
Okay, so then. . . Chris and Wes. . .

Since you guys are so adept at cleaning up messy misunderstandings, if you have some spare time, could you two work on clearing up the Israeli/Palestinian thing, and also that deal between the Sunni and the Shia?

Seriously, glad to see that everyone's on the same page now! :)

+2^2^2

And LOL. About solving the issues in the Middle East.

btw. Time has a nice article on why the Sunni/Shia mess got started. Good read highly recommended.

thomye
03-05-2007, 10:06 AM
It's nice that Bill and Wes are trying to look out for the common good of Californians, but theres only so much you guys can do. It's everyones legal responsibility to follow the letter and intent of the law.

Demanding information from a dealer and than saying "From now on, purchase Lanworld products at your own risk." is inappropriate. Purchase all firearm related products at your own risk. Chris at Lanworld doesn't need to tell you a thing about his merchandise. If your not satisfied with his product information than don't buy from him.

amen...

if you get a 10/30 mag from Chris and it feed 11, that's your responsibility. But you can send it back to Chris and he'll take care of it and take care of you. on top of that, you save at least 10% on everything on average (no punn intended).

Steyr_223
03-05-2007, 10:12 AM
Wow, just wow dog..The love and business ethics on this thread brings pride to my heart..Good show Wes and Chris. Thanks for looking out for us..

Sheds tear,

Now bring us those Cali legal PS90s!

:)

S

xrMike
03-05-2007, 10:28 AM
You are lumping what is "our opinion" legal activity in with what is clearly illegal activity. Do you really want to suggest others take the same attitude that could very well land them in jail?I think if I won the "anti-lottery" and ended up in court over something like this, a decent lawyer could show that I bought the mag on good faith that it was a 10-rounder, as advertised, and my use of it as an 11-rounder was inadvertant and unintentional.

Somebody shooting an obvious 20- or 30-rounder who is either too young to own one, or with a magbody that is dated to indicate obvious illegality, is much more likely to win the anti-lottery than me.

I've talked to 2 different cops at the range, specifically about OLLs, and the drift I got from both of them was, "Hey, as long as you don't commit any crimes with your guns, we don't much care HOW you've got it configured. And don't ever beat up your wife either, because that'll make us look extra hard in your ****, too."

I would never suggest that anybody NOT follow the extreme letter of the law. You really ought to.

All I'm saying is I don't think it's a big deal, and I'm telling you why. Everybody else should do what they think is best for them.

And the concern about how easy a magazine is to ALTER into a high-cap mag, by the user, is also not very understood by me, seeing as how anybody who does something like that deserves whatever happens to them.

I do apprecate your concern for my safety, but I've been making pretty good decisions for myself for nigh 45 years now. No felonies or even mis-duh-meeners yet. :D

xrMike
03-05-2007, 10:42 AM
So, I'm anal retentive about my OLL builds. For me, it's not a risk that's worth taking. Your situation may be different, and you're free to act accordingly.Heheh, I think I'd be a LOT more heart-broken over losing my modest gun collection than over losing my right to vote ;) .

Appreciate your considered response. You make a lot of good points. I'm guessing you're a lawyer or lawyer to be...

mxpatriot51
03-05-2007, 10:47 AM
I'm not sure what happened here but the above is BS. The man behind the bullet button is not going to take the fall, you will take the fall.

Brian

I'm not saying the man behind the bullet button would, the BB is perfectly legal. If you had a home built mag lock and the judge determined it wasn't good enough, you'd be taking the fall.

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 10:58 AM
I'm guessing you're a lawyer or lawyer to be...Yep, going on 22 years now. Want to make sure I get to go on doing it for a good long while yet! :)

BTW, on the 10 vs. 11 thing, as I understand it (Bill will correct me if I am wrong :o ) the law is not one that requires intent as an element of the offense - meaning that your reliance on it being sold to you as a 10 rounder and your subsequent use of it in the good faith belief that it was in fact only capable of holding 10 rounds would not be a defense to the charge. :(

Sad but true. So, caveat emptor!

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 11:05 AM
btw. Time has a nice article on why the Sunni/Shia mess got started. Good read highly recommended.

Thanks, Ed! I'll look for it!

On the same theme, while I've not been a Doonesbury fan for many years now, for a whole lot of reasons, every now and then he hits one out of the park. I think it was his Sunday strip two weeks ago where he has Ray the reservist riding through Baghdad or Fallujah in a Hummer with an ISF guy riding shotgun, and the ISF guy says he's got a beef with the family of some other Iraqi because someone in that family killed someone in his family . . . like 700 years ago! LOL! That's a great snippet of what plagues that country. They make the Hatfields and the McCoys look like kissin' cousins. :)

Cbieling
03-05-2007, 11:12 AM
My shipment of mags is delayed from Stag until the end of the week so I can't post pictures until I get them.

I will post photos online as well so that there will be clear direction on these.

Thanks again,
Chris

Geoffkoop
03-05-2007, 11:13 AM
So are you guys saying we are allowed to use 30 round mags now? just kidding.

Glad we are one happy family now:D

Paratus et Vigilans
03-05-2007, 11:15 AM
And the concern about how easy a magazine is to ALTER into a high-cap mag, by the user, is also not very understood by me, seeing as how anybody who does something like that deserves whatever happens to them.

Here's the problem with the ease of modification issue - you don't have to actually make the mods to make it illegal. If it's so easy to exceed the 10 round limit with it, then it may not be sufficiently "permanent" enough to meet the legal requirement of the 10 round limitation, and so there you are with your 10/20 or 10/30 mag, unmodified, with only 10 rounds in it, and it won't take another one no matter what you do to try to force it in - - but if easily bending two little tabs would open it up for a higher capacity, you're illegal. See, you don't even need to bend the tabs to be a felon. Having a 10/20 or a 10/30 with the tabs that could be bent pinned into your OLL is all it takes to put you into felony territory.

That's why the anal retentive among us are all over this issue.

Hope that helps make more sense of our admittedly senseless laws for you! :)

Jicko
03-05-2007, 11:17 AM
If the 10/30 rounds magazine malfunction and became a 11 rounder, I just made myself an AW and a felony of myself.

How about if the Bullet-Button malfunction, and got STUCK when I push it in?
ie. the mag-catch no longer hold the magazine in the magwell....
ie. it is now an open magwell AR-15 (w/ a pistol grip, it is hence an AW)
ie. i can shoot the rifle holding a magazine to the magwell, and i can drop the magazine without the use of a tool...

:confused: (hmmmm......)

gn3hz3ku1*
03-05-2007, 11:43 AM
I give up, you guys still think this is about $12. You still think this is about competition. This has been and will always be about not getting a straight answer from a vendor on a product that has dire legal consequences if not done right.

Turns out it was the same old mag that we already know was good at just a new lower price. Had it been something else, well here is what John Kennedy said.

i think you misunderstood me. i ment that although many of us ( prob not me since i dont think i need a fake 30) will get the cheaper mag, we have not forgotten what you have done for us and will continue to support you.

tenpercentfirearms
03-05-2007, 12:35 PM
If the 10/30 rounds magazine malfunction and became a 11 rounder, I just made myself an AW and a felony of myself.

How about if the Bullet-Button malfunction, and got STUCK when I push it in?
ie. the mag-catch no longer hold the magazine in the magwell....
ie. it is now an open magwell AR-15 (w/ a pistol grip, it is hence an AW)
ie. i can shoot the rifle holding a magazine to the magwell, and i can drop the magazine without the use of a tool...

:confused: (hmmmm......)

Most magazines don't "malfunction" and just start feeding 11 rounds vs. 10. It would be to your benefit to check all 10 round magazines to make sure they only hold 10 rounds. As I have stated and found out on more than one occasion, there are 10 round mags that hold 11 rounds. This would be fine if all we were talking about was a high capacity magazine violation. If you are fixing the magazine to a rifle, this is not good. This means big potential trouble.

If your Bullet Button malfunctions, fix it! Take the evil features off immediately and don't put them back on until you fix the problem. Again, 10 round mags don't just mysteriously start holding 11. Usually it is a SNAFU from the beginning and you will find it right away.

krazek
03-05-2007, 12:38 PM
Most magazines don't "malfunction" and just start feeding 11 rounds vs. 10. It would be to your benefit to check all 10 round magazines to make sure they only hold 10 rounds. As I have stated and found out on more than one occasion, there are 10 round mags that hold 11 rounds. This would be fine if all we were talking about was a high capacity magazine violation. If you are fixing the magazine to a rifle, this is not good. This means big potential trouble.

If your Bullet Button malfunctions, fix it! Take the evil features off immediately and don't put them back on until you fix the problem. Again, 10 round mags don't just mysteriously start holding 11. Usually it is a SNAFU from the beginning and you will find it right away.

thanks for the clarifications wes with this whole ordeal. your research was immensely helpful. though i havent purchased from you yet because i'm a poor college student.... you can expect orders from me in the future.

bwiese
03-05-2007, 12:46 PM
I think if I won the "anti-lottery" and ended up in court over something like this, a decent lawyer could show that I bought the mag on good faith that it was a 10-rounder, as advertised, and my use of it as an 11-rounder was inadvertant and unintentional.

Nope. Only as prosecutorial discretion could something like this happen.

The crime still exists (or existed) as to possession/creation of an illegal AW - one with a fixed mag of greater than 10 rounds. There's no 'intent' exemption in these laws.


I've talked to 2 different cops at the range, specifically about OLLs, and the drift I got from both of them was, "Hey, as long as you don't commit any crimes with your guns, we don't much care HOW you've got it configured. And don't ever beat up your wife either, because that'll make us look extra hard in your ****, too."

You must live in the sticks. Metro area likely can be much different.

I do apprecate your concern for my safety, but I've been making pretty good decisions for myself for nigh 45 years now. No felonies or even mis-duh-meeners yet. :D

YMMV. Out in the sticks w/good ol' boy sheriff's it's one thing. In a metro area it's wholly different. At that point you need to use the compliance with absolute niggling minor points of the law as your defense.

Never rely on the prospect of an easygoing cop as an excuse for sloppy compliance.

bwiese
03-05-2007, 12:48 PM
If you tried to fix the magazine, it would be a home built kit and in court it would your interpretation vs. the judge's. It's not like putting a bullet button on, you would be the pioneer and the one to take the fall should the DOJ come down on it.

I'm not sure what happened here but the above is BS. The man behind the bullet button is not going to take the fall, you will take
the fall.

Anything that requires "tools + time" to remove a magazine renders that magazine to not be considered a detachable magazine. There is clear regulatory code support for this in the 11 CCR 5469(a) definition.

This has already been used in an OLL case when SJPD had to use a sledgehammer to remove the fixed mag on an arrestee's rifle. Charges were dropped.

krazek
03-05-2007, 1:00 PM
This has already been used in an OLL case when SJPD had to use a sledgehammer to remove the fixed mag on an arrestee's rifle. Charges were dropped.

i would think that you would get a broken reciever before you'd be able to remove a fixed mag

mxpatriot51
03-05-2007, 1:24 PM
Anything that requires "tools + time" to remove a magazine renders that magazine to not be considered a detachable magazine. There is clear regulatory code support for this in the 11 CCR 5469(a) definition.

This has already been used in an OLL case when SJPD had to use a sledgehammer to remove the fixed mag on an arrestee's rifle. Charges were dropped.

This is what scares me with this whole OLL thing. Imagine if that guy would have used a simple set screw kit; would he have been charged? Even if you aren't convicted, being detained, arrested, and booked is not something I want to go through.

Did SJPD replace the rifle after ruining it with a sledgehammer?

bwiese
03-05-2007, 1:53 PM
This is what scares me with this whole OLL thing. Imagine if that guy would have used a simple set screw kit; would he have been charged?

He was arreseted because they didn't know anything about anything.

Charges were dropped because of the fixed mag - *and* because the DOJ was trying to drive new proposed regulations (that have not been adopted, and which are deficient for a variety of reasons that would affect their adoption at OAL level). The mag appears to have been regarded as truly fixed and that the regulations were sufficient for compliance because the DOJ was trying to create new ones.

I really feel for the Evan's/GB folks since some of their guns are 'named' guns and this could readily cause confusion at the local level despite DOJ/Iggy letter.


Did SJPD replace the rifle after ruining it with a sledgehammer?[/QUOTE]

No, the rifle was not damaged just the fixed mag apparently.

PIRATE14
03-05-2007, 3:16 PM
Ya......I've seen'em........;)

whatdyisit
03-06-2007, 10:10 PM
I think I need to buy a few of these now famous "Stag-Mags".
Thanks to Wes and Chris for providing great products and great customer service. It is because of guys like you I really expect good customer service in the firearms industry where a few years ago, I just dealt with a-holes because "thats what you get with gun guys".
Thanks again.

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2007, 9:08 AM
So basically Stag bought a bunch of these over a year ago and has been sitting on them. Stag plans on carrying them for a while and they want to keep them at the lower dealer purchase price. C Products doesn't want to lower their purchase price, so of course we will go ahead and order them from Stag then and probably sell them for $25. Sorry, I can't sell these for $18. I have to make enough money to expand my business and continue to grow.

hoffmang
03-07-2007, 9:47 AM
Anything that requires "tools + time" to remove a magazine renders that magazine to not be considered a detachable magazine. There is clear regulatory code support for this in the 11 CCR 5469(a) definition.



Just a nit, but 11 CCR 5469(a) only requires tools, not time. Time is a buffer if you wish to be more conservative. The letter of law is only tools.

-Gene

bwiese
03-07-2007, 10:08 AM
Just a nit, but 11 CCR 5469(a) only requires tools, not time. Time is a buffer if you wish to be more conservative. The letter of law is only tools.

Absolutely. However time can be somewhat inferred from the 'use of a tool' concept and is a useful explanatory device. That time taken, of course, could just the moment it takes to use that tool, including a bullet tip.

I do believe the less easy it is to change the less grief you might have in an LE encounter (i.e, SJPD using a sledgehammer to try to remove a fixed mag).