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View Full Version : Minimum Reasonable Caliber for Bear Defense?


royrapoport
12-04-2011, 11:44 AM
My 84 year old father in law seems to believe that he needs to have some sort of means of self-defense from bears when he goes off-roading. This is not all that terribly logical (the guy uses a walker and oxygen, so the odds of him being caught outside his jeep are somewhat low, and inside a jeep the best bear defense is the gas pedal), but he's my father in law and all ...

He's interested in something semi-automatic, rather than bolt/lever, and was thinking of maybe picking up an M1 Carbine. Thoughts? If not 30 carbine, what better caliber would you suggest?

Tier One Arms
12-04-2011, 11:50 AM
Barrett M107 50 BMG. In all seriousness, he would do better with a Smith and Wesson 500.

CenterX
12-04-2011, 11:54 AM
Where is he off roading?

Here is an interesting take on dealing with bears:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

I'd say he has more to fear from the pot growers than bears - if he is not in a National Park - bear spray. Chances are slim that if he is being charged that he'll get a kill shot off in time. The spray doesn't need to be well placed like the projectile.

Best of luck to the bears.

vieleicht
12-04-2011, 11:57 AM
30 Carbine? You're joking, right?
If it has to be semi auto, try an AR in 458 socom or 50 Beowulf.

11011500a
12-04-2011, 12:07 PM
Ruger gp100 4". Oxygen? he needs a lighter & run!

Fjold
12-04-2011, 12:51 PM
Find a Ruger Deerfield 44 Magnum.

green grunt
12-04-2011, 1:25 PM
12 guage side by side , 1 barrel with a slug , the other with 00 buck , if that won't do it...to late...your bear food ...

I've talked to a few Rangers.....they may carry spray , but they have to , not that they want to !

Benster
12-04-2011, 2:04 PM
m1 grand 30-06

Josh3239
12-04-2011, 2:04 PM
.30 carbine is way too underpowered. 12 gauge would likely be one of the top choices. Also it is worth looking at the .45-70. The .458 Socom would work well and is fired out of an AR.

Go Navy
12-04-2011, 3:49 PM
I know he doesn't want a lever gun, but he really should consider a Marlin in .45-70. They make a shorter barrel version, sort of a guide gun. He could put a scabbard in that Jeep he drives and boogie on down.

It's very cool that he's getting out there at that age!

Freagan
12-04-2011, 3:54 PM
is 7.62x39 too underpowered for bear protection?

shortround1
12-04-2011, 4:01 PM
3 in. magnum slugs. Why would bears even be discussed outside the shotgun forum? :D

223556
12-04-2011, 4:04 PM
I say a 12g pump or maybe a semi auto will be eaiser for him to handle easily.
Loaded with 00 Buck and Slugs! Or even Sabot rounds!

Dill45
12-04-2011, 4:11 PM
While caliber does have a lot to due with it, I would think bullet design would have more so than anything.

A 30 carbine would be woefully underpowered. 30-06 would be good but I would tend to want something that could have a bit heavier of a bullet since odds are the bears going to be charging you and the likeliness of a getting a good shot off would be much more limited.

Big LWFN bullet would plow through thick bones pretty damn well.

Though, I would honestly get something like a 45-70 lever with 405gr LFN bullets. Or a SBH in 44 Mag with some 280gr LFN bullets.

I'd really not want to roll with any thing less than a 41 Rem Mag, but then again I do fear running into one of those elusive armor plated bears.

500 Mag with 440-550 gr bullets would work break through bones great. Quite a bit of recoil though.

mattt
12-04-2011, 4:33 PM
Calif black bears almost anything would turn them and make them run. An Alaskan grizzley unless you get a head shot it would kill you before it bled out and died no matter what you hit it with. Have some one throw a basketball at you as hard as they can bouncing it from 50 yards that is a grizzleys head running at you try to hit that before it reaches you.:eek:

Divernhunter
12-04-2011, 6:24 PM
Just have him bring a friend that cannot run as fast as he can.


12ga with slugs/buckshot

UserM4
12-04-2011, 6:26 PM
Bear spray.

dfletcher
12-04-2011, 6:35 PM
Find a Ruger Deerfield 44 Magnum.

Not a bad choice considering the OP mentioned a 30 Carbine sized long gun - City Arms in Pleasant Hill has one, I was there yesterday and saw it on the wall.

Mamluke
12-04-2011, 6:59 PM
is 7.62x39 too underpowered for bear protection?

Dude, that's the perfect charging bear killer caliber.... I go hiking with my AK on many National forest trails, I take my most lethal anti bear weapon; my two dogs .... :D

But seriously now, are we talking about the California Black bear or the Yellowstone/Alaska Grizzly Bear?....

A 7.62 in the upper body will do the job just fine/ follow up shots recommended if its a Grizzly bear!

And how about a Polar Bear? Does he go fishing in Alaska or near the Poles?... Them Polar Bears are great swimmers ya know!!! Well for that, you'll need 45-70 ... the Buffalo killer caliber, you'll need that extra punch to penetrate through all that fatty fur lol....

Where does he go off roading again? .... I'd also be worried about these little kitties as well ... :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

... a 22lr rifle is all he needs there...

EyE loves me this thread ....:43:

MaHoTex
12-04-2011, 7:08 PM
Just have him bring a friend that cannot run as fast as he can.


12ga with slugs/buckshot

Did you read the OP? He is 84 with an oxygen tank and a walker! There is noone that runs slower. He needs a gun. :D

mutiny5050
12-04-2011, 7:21 PM
Just get him an air horn. Works for me camping. Not sure arming a 84 year old with a AR is the best possible solution. But in all reality a head shot with a 1911 would do the trick.

Jarhead
12-04-2011, 7:24 PM
.50 Beowulf

Ak714
12-04-2011, 7:51 PM
Get something that YOU would like...think inheretence

Go Navy
12-04-2011, 8:46 PM
Air horns and bear spray? You gotta be kidding.

UserM4
12-04-2011, 8:57 PM
Air horns and bear spray? You gotta be kidding.

Yeah, because bear spray is only meant for protesters. :rolleyes:

Rockit
12-04-2011, 9:05 PM
Air horns and bear spray? You gotta be kidding.
If he's dealing with CA bears sure. I've never needed anything more than yelling and rocks.
If he's wheeling where there are real bears, Griz, 44 Mag or 12g slugs.

hcbr
12-04-2011, 9:13 PM
handgun, i'd say .44 mag, and for rifle, a shotgun with slugs

ojisan
12-04-2011, 9:25 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

So who got out to change the flat tire? -------------------------^^^^^

zfields
12-04-2011, 9:27 PM
Barrett M107 50 BMG. In all seriousness, he would do better with a Smith and Wesson 500.

....a 500 SW for a 84 year old man.

Mamluke
12-04-2011, 9:32 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

So who got out to change the flat tire? -------------------------^^^^^

They don't have a spare, the other kitty is taking care of that .... :P

..

..

..... here kitty kitty ........... :D

motorwerks
12-04-2011, 10:16 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

So who got out to change the flat tire? -------------------------^^^^^

The person with the least seniority. :D

17+1
12-04-2011, 10:17 PM
Pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun without the stock...loaded with slugs. Cheap and reliable.

Never shot a bear, but I can't imagine any North American animal walking away after taking that much lead, at that velocity, at that range, to the face.

elSquid
12-04-2011, 10:20 PM
My 84 year old father in law ... (the guy uses a walker and oxygen, ...

He's interested in something semi-automatic, rather than bolt/lever, and was thinking of maybe picking up an M1 Carbine. Thoughts? If not 30 carbine, what better caliber would you suggest?

A carbine doesn't seem all that bad for his situation. Better 10 rounds of 30 carbine than 6 rounds of 357 Magnum out of a revolver. Light weight rifle, super easy to maneuver, light recoil, easier to shoot than a handgun. When you consider that it's unlikely that he'll need it for a bear, and it makes a decent general purpose rifle for the odd rabid skunk or bad-guy-in-the-boonies...

If he's really concerned about bears, FMJs, otherwise just load it with soft points.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19956

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/M1CarbineWP.jpg

: shrug :

-- Michael

17+1
12-04-2011, 10:26 PM
Alaska Park Service says carry a 12 gauge. But then again you probably won't encounter the bear that got Treadwell while offroading a Jeep in California. ;)

Those folding wire stock paratrooper M1 carbines are actually pretty cool though...probably not legal here (with folder operating) though without some type of modifications to obey the laws.

jben
12-04-2011, 10:35 PM
:facepalm:Why do people think that black bears are such a menace?
The answer is...you don't need a gun for black bears.

shortround1
12-04-2011, 10:36 PM
Wait, why again is an 84 year old off-roading?

Merc1138
12-04-2011, 11:46 PM
Wait, why again is an 84 year old off-roading?

Easy, it's because...
http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j145/Jvchequer/944164-troll_obvious_super.jpg

Or does anyone really expect an 84 year old with a walker and oxygen tank to have a rifle/handgun ready and be able to do much with it if a bear mauls him while he's jacking the truck up to change a tire?

ConfucianScholar
12-05-2011, 12:55 AM
At what age did he fathered your wife?

kemikalembalance
12-05-2011, 1:05 AM
Just get him an air horn. Works for me camping. Not sure arming a 84 year old with a AR is the best possible solution. But in all reality a head shot with a 1911 would do the trick.


^thats the best advice for your situation. Minimum for the tiny california bears my buddy hunts is a special load 44 mag. Or you better be a very damn good shot. At 84, with respect...air horn or 12g sabot slug.

Blackhawk556
12-05-2011, 1:20 AM
The person with the least seniority. :D

Thank God for unions :D

Sent from Los Alamos Nuclear Facility

alfred1222
12-05-2011, 1:41 AM
My advice would be a Saiga 12, with a 20 rnd drum mag, the first 10 shells being slug, the last 10 being 00 buck

Divernhunter
12-05-2011, 1:45 AM
Have you ever seen a bear move?? You would not get off anywhere near the 20 or even 10 shots.

Go Navy
12-05-2011, 6:15 AM
:facepalm:Why do people think that black bears are such a menace?
The answer is...you don't need a gun for black bears.

This scenario that many in this thread seem to believe is that a black bear can always, everywhere, reliably be scared off or discouraged by non-lethal methods....rocks, yelling, bear spray, shotgun slugs or buckshot that will not penetrate to vitals, etc. I don't understand this logic, unless it is based on unspoken sympathy for the bear.

The problem is that the price of being wrong, for the human, is death by mauling. Who's to say you will NEVER encounter the odd bear who didn't read the teddy bear script, and is going to attack you? It seems to me you plan for the worst case scenario, not the expected case scenario.

The gentleman who wisely pointed out in this thread that bullet choice is critical is right, I think. They say that bears are extremely tough, and the wrong bullet will not penetrate and will simply anger the bear even more. I've never read of guides carrying shotguns; you usually read about them carrying big bore rifles of one kind or another. (Note: I've never hunted bear so I'm no expert and I admit it.)

Sunday
12-05-2011, 6:35 AM
Bear spray because believe it or not a shot bear can kill you before it dies.

dieselpower
12-05-2011, 6:56 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

...


Lunch boxes come in all shapes and sizes...

The old man is right and needs a 12ga pump. mount it on the rollbar within reach of the driver. Its not just bears he should be worried about. He needs a flare gun and a CB radio too.

chiburi
12-05-2011, 8:15 AM
buying him a rifle may insight him to actually do more off roading, get stuck in the mud, etc., why in the world would an 84 year old man be off-roading. No disrespect, but this thread seems VERY odd to me. I can't imagine your wife/ his child, allowing him the keys, let alone go off-roading, and again, WITH A GUN no less, that he may have no idea how to control or work given his condition. Really????

chib

jokat989
12-05-2011, 8:25 AM
i have scared off a bear with a whistle and a flashlight before. i was backpacking in the Yosemite wilderness. in California honestly i would be more worried about mountain lions than bears.

Curley Red
12-05-2011, 9:30 AM
84 with oxygen and a walker. What type of fireearm can he carry let alone shoot, and how quickly will he be able to get that gun in the firing position. If this is a real question and not a troll you need to see what he can handle and how quickly he is going to be able to get it ready to fire. I personally would strap a can of bear spray to his walker if he really uses one. Most bears will run off a the sound of the bear spray.

Curley Red
12-05-2011, 9:32 AM
Wait, why again is an 84 year old off-roading?

My grandparents rode dune buggies in the sand dunes til they were 91. As for why, because they can!

LTP90
12-05-2011, 10:50 AM
why in the world would an 84 year old man be off-roading.

My grandpa is 84 and he can still out drive me off road any day of the week, he only has like 50+ years of experience more than me.

sendithit
12-05-2011, 10:56 AM
30 Carbine? You're joking, right?
If it has to be semi auto, try an AR in 458 socom or 50 Beowulf.

I would think THIS. Its all there...semi-auto, round capacity, relative ease of handling. I have meaty strong younger hands than a typical 84YO off-roading senior and I've shot the compensated SW Model 500 many times. Very impressve report and recoil. VERY. Probably not fun or practical in most (I would never say ALL) seniors hands.

Take him to a range and rent a 500 if one is available before you two write it off as a no-go, though...it just might work for hiim. Think about it.

mls343
12-05-2011, 11:04 AM
Like another poster stated, California Black Bears are pretty sensitive to noise, so an M1 carbine is not too far fetched. When I backpack/base camp with friends, I typically bring the carbine as it is light weight, handy, and makes enough noise to keep the camp clear (Note: my back up handgun is a .45 auto...).

When I go by myself, I typically bring .308/30-06 or something in the main battle rifle cartridge category.

In Grizzly country, I'd still feel pretty comfortable with a 30-06 especially if there was someone slower then me... :-)

Just my $0.02

CenterX
12-05-2011, 11:14 AM
First, get some life insurance on him. Then give him some bear spray - but for sure he may need to understand that he has a better chance of being hit by lightning than killed by a California black Bear!

Black Bears:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

Lightning:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/05/0522_030522_lightning.html

Mamluke
12-05-2011, 11:16 AM
.... :popcorn: ....

Seriously guys, the best WAY to AVOID being mauled by a bear is to play DEAD! .... How old did you say he was?! ....

Black bears don't scare me unless its a mommy bear with cubs!

These guys though freak me out, & can be more lethal than a bear ...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/mtgoat-002.jpg

...yeah, a mountain goat can be deadly ... :D

........

coyotebait
12-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Where is he off roading?

Here is an interesting take on dealing with bears:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/scarebears.htm

I'd say he has more to fear from the pot growers than bears - if he is not in a National Park - bear spray. Chances are slim that if he is being charged that he'll get a kill shot off in time. The spray doesn't need to be well placed like the projectile.

Best of luck to the bears.

Bear spray.
Think about what a bear really is....it's a life support system for it's nose. Bear spray will be more effective as a deterrent at close range than a firearm.

Sicarius
12-05-2011, 12:24 PM
.44 in a lever gun and pistol as backup would do the job. Anything bigger is better 500SW and a 12 ga with slugs would work too. Chances are, when you come across a bear, they will be fairly close. Long range is really not really a consideration.
Kevin

stix213
12-05-2011, 2:28 PM
I personally carry a Glock 29 10mm with an extended barrel when out in the woods in California (so black bears). My understanding is that is about the minimum, and since I'm backpacking that's about all I can afford to carry weight wise. I don't expect to ever need to find out with black bears, since they scare so easily fortunately.

The way I see it though, is if you're out on your own with no reasonable help nearby, you need some way to win if it comes down to that. I'm not sure if spicing up the bear's food with some spray is good enough. I bet bear spray goes good with taco's though.

bill_k_lopez
12-05-2011, 2:34 PM
Jesus - just get two pots and bang 'em together. Other option is just play dead if confronted.

-hanko
12-05-2011, 3:06 PM
Jesus - just get two pots and bang 'em together. Other option is just play dead if confronted.
There are only 1 or 2 things more entertaining than a bear thread on calguns...:lurk5::lurk5::beatdeadhorse5:

OP, go back to prior bear threads, this is a repeat, as they all are:sleeping:.

Spray is FAR the best deterrent for black bear, so is the noise of op's relative's Jeep.

For those of you who know nothing of bear habits, why post?:sleeping:

-hanko

-hanko
12-05-2011, 3:08 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/LavaBull/Lions_Attack_Safari.jpg

So who got out to change the flat tire? -------------------------^^^^^
The driver...enough meat there for a week or 3.

-hanko

MrPlink
12-05-2011, 4:30 PM
There are only 1 or 2 things more entertaining than a bear thread on calguns...:lurk5::lurk5::beatdeadhorse5:

OP, go back to prior bear threads, this is a repeat, as they all are:sleeping:.



hunting elephants at 1000yards is probably better, but IIRC the OP for that thread also had a bear one.

bubbapug1
12-05-2011, 8:37 PM
desert eagle 44 mag

Rockit
12-05-2011, 9:59 PM
For those of you who know nothing of bear habits, why post?:sleeping:
-hanko
It's obvious many posting here have never seen a bear outside a zoo. For those that have grown up out of the glow of city lights know that CA bears are NOT and issue. Hell, even in Griz country I'm more concerned of Moose than bear.

motorwerks
12-05-2011, 10:44 PM
I'd honestly feel fine with .223 in CA. Our Bears here are sissy trash bears. When I worked for the park service we hunted them with paintball guns and they would run their butts off. It was one of the funniest things I have ever gotten paid to do. Any farther north then CA, I would start looking more in the .30 carbine range, farther north then WA and I would look into .308, or 30/06. But thats just my 2 bits.

Mail Clerk
12-06-2011, 6:29 AM
If it were myself the minimun carry caliber would be 357 "magnum" in my opinion. Of course the 44 is better for the maximum. The Marlin lever actions is fantastic. It gives good punch in a long barrel for 357 magnum.

Mail Clerk

drunktank
12-06-2011, 7:20 AM
Well, there are a couple guides in my family, but out of state. They recommend bear spray. Some Alaskan guides even recommend the same. It's easy for a chairborne ranger to make pepper jokes, but how many have actually left the comfort of a city? I say arm him with the carbine for piece of mind (and 2 legged critters). Spray as well.

A pair of grandparents I once knew went off roading in pismo annually until they passed close to their 90's. I wouldn't automatically discount our seniors. Having a pistol gripped 12 gauge with slugs and no stock as recommended by someone seems pushing it though unless he's a strong grandpa.

CSACANNONEER
12-06-2011, 7:51 AM
I would suggest Bear spray and a couple of large pans to bang together. Both work far better than a firearm will.

Barrett M107 50 BMG. In all seriousness, he would do better with a Smith and Wesson 500.

While it's on the expensive side, a Barrett would make a nice club. Personally, I'd rather spend 1/2 as much and get a BMG capable of shooting groups 1/2 of that of a Barrett.;)

Head416
12-06-2011, 8:23 AM
I hope when I'm 84 and using a walker I'm still spunky enough to go offroading. He's doing it right! What do you guys want him to do, sit in the lazyboy and wait for death? Better to go out swinging.

I do question if he can handle the recoil of a 12 gauge slug, but my neighbor is 83 and shoots a few hundred rounds of trap a week, every week of the year! Get him something he can shoot comfortably and call it good.

Mr. Casull
12-06-2011, 2:06 PM
Get something that YOU would like...think inheretence
Now there is somebody who is thinking!!

Dirt22
12-06-2011, 6:48 PM
2 things I wouldn't want to see...

1, Anyone trying to swing a rifle around in the cab of a jeep (I have one, cab is pretty tight)

2, an 84 year old man on Oxygen shooting a shotgun with slugs in it. - it's not the bear that will tear his arm off...

:oji:

comblock
12-06-2011, 7:01 PM
If the bear is wearing dragonskin, you may want to consider armor piercing homing bullets.

Cali-Shooter
12-06-2011, 7:04 PM
For a handgun, .44 magnum minimum. Long gun, a 12 gauge shotgun with slugs.

But it's likely to be cheaper to carry bear spray, which could be very effective as well. Best scenario would be to have both a spray and a firearm.

Sent from Black Mesa Research Facility, Level 3 Dormitories, Room 309.

Dhena81
12-06-2011, 7:32 PM
The fail is strong in this thread

I can design him a remotely bluetooth controlled firearm mount for his jeep and he can put any semi automatic firearm of his choice on there. I think an iPad would be a good choice that way when he's outside airing down his tires he'll still be safe.

Dhena81
12-06-2011, 7:33 PM
If the bear is wearing dragonskin, you may want to consider armor piercing homing bullets.

You wouldn't need armor piercing bullets if you had time to soak the dragonskin in diesel.

Mamluke
12-06-2011, 7:41 PM
The fail is strong in this thread

I can design him a remotely bluetooth controlled firearm mount for his jeep and he can put any semi automatic firearm of his choice on there.

... :popcorn: ...

EyE think the Beartooth will overpower the Bluetooth ....


.....

ScottsBad
12-07-2011, 12:39 AM
Very funny, but I'll play along. A serious answer would be a Marlin lever action 44 Mag. for a REAL bear. To get rid of the wimpy Comiefornia black bears, harsh words would suffice. Or maybe a police whistle...seriously we've run them off with a .22 fired in the air.

BUT THE VERY BEST BEAR GUN would be a DRACO PISTOL with a 30 ROUND Magazine....LOL

primalsmoke
12-07-2011, 7:14 AM
I saw a bear charge my buddy.

He had the perfect weapon
His browning 270 semi.

When the bear charged he fired a warning shot. He saw it hit behind its hind leg. As he kept a bead on the bear, it changed its course enough so he did not have to kill it.

The bear was small, about the size of a large Newfoundland dog.

Being able to fire a warning shot and still stay on target for the next 3-6 seconds was critical.

My buddies and I had gotten lazy with the reload and unload of revolvers. By law they must be unloaded in and out of vehicles.

Since I have a bolt action I got and xd 45.
Not really using 357 anymore.
I can squeeze and stay on target for about 5 shots in the short time

fishnbeer
12-07-2011, 7:17 AM
700 nitro express pistol

bill_k_lopez
12-07-2011, 7:25 AM
I've reconsidered my pots & pan or play dead suggestion.

Here are some new ideas:

If you're on a budget, keep it simple.

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_mb_pettit_highlandlakes_1.jpg

or this if you feel like you need a little more umph.

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_mb_1942_newfoundland_full.jpg

maybe....

http://olive-drab.com/images/id_mb_w_rocket_full.jpg

chicoredneck
12-07-2011, 8:08 AM
Anyone who thinks they can make up for poor shot placement with a larger caliber lacks real world experience.

Selecting a proper load is more important than caliber for most applications.

Practice is more important than selecting the proper load or caliber.

Knowing how to avoid bad situations is more important than practice.

Unless your in a park, any bear you run into is most likely going to be terrified of you.

You are ultimaetly responsible for your own well being, no one else.

Guns are cool.:cool:

jkonquer
12-07-2011, 8:30 AM
isn't a 12g magnum buckshot made for bears?

Forewarned
12-07-2011, 8:48 AM
A bit off topic, but on a small 125 pound Black Bear it took 3 shots of 45acp hollow points to kill it dead. First shot was center chest just below the neck, second shot was below the eye, third shot was the finishing shot was between the eyes. This was hunting not self defense. I say to kill it dead because we did not want it to suffer, so If it was still breathing it got shot.

chicoredneck
12-07-2011, 9:10 AM
A bit off topic, but on a small 125 pound Black Bear it took 3 shots of 45acp hollow points to kill it dead. First shot was center chest just below the neck, second shot was below the eye, third shot was the finishing shot was between the eyes. This was hunting not self defense. I say to kill it dead because we did not want it to suffer, so If it was still breathing it got shot.


Interesting post. I sold my 45acp because I was not happy with it's performance against heavy bone. The rounds had a tendancy to hit the bone and follow it rather than penetrate at high degree angles. Is this what happened with your head shot bear? In your opinion was the chest shot sufficient to have killed the bear timely, i.e. did the bullet reach the vitals?

Reductio
12-07-2011, 9:13 AM
Interesting post. I sold my 45acp because I was not happy with it's performance against heavy bone. The rounds had a tendancy to hit the bone and follow it rather than penetrate at high degree angles. Is this what happened with your head shot bear? In your opinion was the chest shot sufficient to have killed the bear timely, i.e. did the bullet reach the vitals?

One of my hunting buddies has a bear skull with a groove right up the snout from a .357 magnum revolver at pointblank range. They had to finish it off with another 7mm Rem. Mag round. I wouldn't trust pistols in general.

chicoredneck
12-07-2011, 9:22 AM
One of my hunting buddies has a bear skull with a groove right up the snout from a .357 magnum revolver at pointblank range. They had to finish it off with another 7mm Rem. Mag round. I wouldn't trust pistols in general.

Pistol bullets lack the sectional denisty that rifle bullets have. It's akin to trying to push a pie plate into an animal vs a torpedo. Combine that with the low velocity and they just don't penetrate well against solid objects. My 9mm had better penetration against bone that my 45acp did simply because of the extra velocity even though the 45 has a better sectional density(124gr 9mm sd .141 and 45acp 230gr SD .162). that little extra made a big difference.

Forewarned
12-07-2011, 2:24 PM
Interesting post. I sold my 45acp because I was not happy with it's performance against heavy bone. The rounds had a tendancy to hit the bone and follow it rather than penetrate at high degree angles. Is this what happened with your head shot bear? In your opinion was the chest shot sufficient to have killed the bear timely, i.e. did the bullet reach the vitals?

I couldn't really tell but I think it would have died with just the chest shot but you just can't take a chance. All three shots were fired within 30sec I would say. The face shot went in under his left eye through his mouth and blew out the back of his right jaw hinge. After that we could still hear him gurgle when trying to breath so then the final shot was taken. The shots went through the bone with no problem.

Noah3683
12-07-2011, 3:23 PM
Just get him an air horn. Works for me camping. Not sure arming a 84 year old with a AR is the best possible solution. But in all reality a head shot with a 1911 would do the trick.

You just go ahead and let me know how that works out :rolleyes:

Jason P
12-07-2011, 3:35 PM
Pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun without the stock...loaded with slugs. Cheap and reliable.

Never shot a bear, but I can't imagine any North American animal walking away after taking that much lead, at that velocity, at that range, to the face.

Pistol grip 12ga with slugs is borderline ludicrous for a normal person, for an 84 y.o. that is almost an inhumane suggestion. 20" 8 shot Mosberg 500 with REGULAR or BANTAM stock, maybe even a recoil absorbing aftermarket unit, and 8 3" Magnum slugs should do the trick on anything smaller than a T-Rex...

7.62x63mmUS
12-07-2011, 3:37 PM
Side note: I find it funny how a lot of people carry .357 Magnums for animal/bear defense yet poopoo the M1 carbine. Really are about equal when you compare a pistol in .357 and the .30 carbine out of a rifle. Plus you have way more capacity and the longer sight radius.