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View Full Version : Magnetic AR Mag Release Idea (not mag-magnet tool)


nitroxdiver
12-04-2011, 11:31 AM
First, this is NOT about the mag magnet bullet button tool.

Ok, so I had this idea come to me the other day when I was thinking about doing reloads in a carbine class with the Ultimate Bullet Button Tool. I love the UBBT. It's a great idea, works great, and you always have a BB tool with you. The one thing I don't like is having to reach under the gun with my left hand to release the mag. The othert option would be to break my right side hold and reload right handed. This method actually works best for me in an appleseed however when I'm slung up with a loop sling on the left arm.

Anyway, I was thinking it would be awesome if there was an ambi mag lock of some sort. One that you could use a tool on either side to release a locked mag.

Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. Hey, the mag catch is STEEL! The lower is aluminum. I wonder if one of those rare earth magnets has enough pull to grab the steel mag catch on the left, and pull it out far enough to let the mag drop.

Out to the garage, into the toolbox for trial #1 with one of those flexible parts retriever magnetic gizmos. Chucked up an empty mag in the BB equipped california legal lower, touched the left side mag catch with the magnet and pulled. Mag catch followed, empty mag dropped to the floor. Magnet broke away once catch reached its mechanical limit of travel, and snapped back into position. I smiled.

So here is the thought. Keep the UBBT on the P-mag, for right sided reloads and a back up tool. Purchase some circular rare earth magnets, and epoxy one to the base of my P-mags. To reload, you would grab your fresh mag off your waist or out of your pocket, touch the mag base to the mag catch and pull. Empty mag falls out. Slam fresh mag into rifle, hit bolt release, carry on.

I checked online for the magnets and found a supplier with many different sizes. The P-mag base is 1 1/8" wide, so there are lots of options for either a circular or square magnet. The magnets are sold in batches of about a dozen, but are only a buck a piece. The epoxy is about 8 bucks.

So, share your thoughts, feel free to use the idea. I can't see any reason it wouldn't be legal. It's no different than the UBBT. But if our much trusted and respected legal advisors think it's hinky, I'll pull the thread.

Some final thoughts. Yes, I know we can just run featureless. Thank you Mr. Obvious. ;-) Yes, thank God you live in a free state and don't have to deal with our stupid laws. I Know. I'm from, and will be heading back to, a free state soon enough. And finally, it's OK to take carbine classes, run and gun, do fast reloads etc. for the pure and simple fact that it is fun, and you are a firearms enthusiest enjoying your hobby.
Take care.

GettoPhilosopher
12-04-2011, 11:51 AM
The question--as I see it-- would be does the magnet become part of the gun? It does attach magnetically to the magazine catch when you use it. I can see the argument being made that it then becomes part of the magazine catch (like the mag magnet tools) and you're therefore detaching the magazine solely with your hand (grabbing the magnet that's now part of the catch and detaching the magazine).

IANAL.

NoHeavyHitter
12-04-2011, 12:11 PM
This sounds like a great idea - but like you, I'm no legal scholar and couldn't guess if it would be legal or not.

nitroxdiver
12-04-2011, 12:15 PM
GettoP, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Interesting counter to the legality issue.

BBB114
12-04-2011, 12:33 PM
as long as the magnet is attached to the mag, no different than ubbt....legal.

jkody
12-04-2011, 12:40 PM
How about sewing the magnet into a glove?

LTP90
12-04-2011, 2:18 PM
I think you might have really hit on something!

I have an idea based on your concept, but I am going to sit down and figure out the physics or do a drawing right the second.(so it might not even work do to the steel and magnetic fields, as I said I would have to figure out the physics)

What if you attached the magnet to the mag catch(epoxy?) and then used the UBBT to activate it(I am guessing they are plastic but if you had steel ones, or fabricated steel ones). it would be alot cheaper to buy one magnet than to buy one for all your mags.
I am betting if you got really fancy(or a manufacture got fancy) you could mount the magnet in a small well in the lever so it would sit flush, heck you could even coat it then and no one would know it was there.

223556
12-04-2011, 2:24 PM
Sounds very cool, maybe make a version of it and demo it, see what the lawerys say?

fourXfour
12-04-2011, 2:47 PM
Hmmm. Bullet button on the right side and magnet mag release on the left side. Best of both worlds? Ambidextrous mag locks....

Very cool idea!

Lostsheep
12-04-2011, 3:13 PM
Magnets can push as well as pull.

If pulling from the left side, the magnet could stick to the mag catch and then "be attached" to the rifle and no longer require a tool. If you use it to push another magnet from the right, it would not want to attach itself. Also, many materials are permeable to magnetic fields, as such, you could make a bullet button style mag catch that did not move and did not have a hole in it but had a magnet under the cover connected to the mag catch. It would take another magnet (a tool) to operate.


ETA:
Something basically like this but put the tool magnet in the mag like the UBBT.

http://i964.photobucket.com/albums/ae128/jlckwd/Capture1.jpg

nitroxdiver
12-04-2011, 6:28 PM
Thanks for the thoughts guys. The more I think about gettoP's post, the more I'm beginning to think this might fall under the same scrutiny as the mag magnet BB tool. It would I guess, be attached to the release, if ever so briefly, while it is being used. However, while it is attached, the mag catch doesnt work to hold a mag in. I don't know. What I do know is it would work for sure as I spelled it out, and would be a super slick way to quickly change mags with the support hand. I guess I'll wait for the professional legal advisors to weigh in before gluing a magnet to the base of a mag.

Ltp, thanks for your thoughts. Your idea is cool too, just a bit more complex.

Lostsheep, awesome Cad drawing, and interesting idea. I still like my original idea, it would be a very simple and cheap mag mod, if deemed legal.

Ok guys, take care, and thanks.

peter95
12-04-2011, 7:32 PM
Good idea IMO.... If I'm understanding this correctly...

So are we talking about a rod made of magnet and to be inserted in the bullet button then use another magnet attached to a magazine so you can quickly swipe it on the left side of the ar for quick release?

Well at least that's what I thought about but never acted upon it lol....

nitroxdiver
12-04-2011, 8:51 PM
Hey Peter, no, my idea is to glue a magnet to the bottom of your mags.
To do a mag swap, you take your fresh mag in your left hand, put the magnetic base against the left side of the rifle at the mag catch, and then pull it away. In doing so, the magnet pulls the mag catch itself, releasing the empty mag. Then you take that same fresh mag you just used to drop the empty, and recharge your rifle.

Not suggesting to do this, as I have no idea if it could cross some legal line, just an idea that does work in theory, and I wanted to run it up the flag pole

Agent Tikki
12-04-2011, 9:00 PM
Dunno that magnets gotta be strong.

How about just making the UBBT the magnet. Then you can use it on either side.

To help your idea. Rplace the mag catch with a magnatized one of opposite polarity to the new magnatized ubbt. This will make more stronngly attracted to one another........wait wut was I talking about...

unusedusername
12-05-2011, 12:23 AM
Try that strong of a magnet in a few mags close to one another.

You might have some trouble getting them into mag pouches next to each other if the magnets interact with each other. You wouldn't want your mags to stick to each other (or worse, repel each other!).

nitroxdiver
12-05-2011, 8:00 AM
Unuseduser- great point, thank you. I think they would be fine in individual mag holders, such as those you carry on a battle belt. I want to clear the potential legal hurdle of the concept first, then the logistics of actually using the setup for classes or gun sports could come later. Thanks again.

Fiveohmike
12-05-2011, 9:56 AM
I am thinking just a strong magnet in the palm or finger of your left hand glove, so that you can swipe it on the left side and drop the mag...just make sure the free float is aluminum so your finger hand dont stick to the rail. You could make the magnet as wide as the tip of your finger, or put a larger flatter magnet at the base of your thumb for more leeway so you can just slap your hand/finger at the catch and yank, as your sliding by to grab the new mag.

sleepercar
12-05-2011, 1:35 PM
Well, since the cat is out of the bag.. If you're willing to pursue this, I'll PM you with some info. I thought of this a little over a year ago and have been experimenting since. But its mostly been for myself, friends and family on my free time. I've got tons of ideas.. :D

chead
12-05-2011, 1:57 PM
Just watch, now everyone outside of CA will want a touchless ambi mag release too :)

fixitoscar
12-05-2011, 2:09 PM
Just watch, now everyone outside of CA will want a touchless ambi mag release too :)

lol
This sounds like a really cool idea.

Nismo
12-05-2011, 2:28 PM
Have you ever put a very strong magnet in the dirt as a kid to pick up all the iron and magnetic particles until the magnet became a fuzz ball?

One thing to consider is that your gun will now literally be a grit magnet and gunk up steel mechanical parts if you permanently attach a strong magnet to your gun.

Fate
12-05-2011, 2:40 PM
Idea discussed ad nauseum in 2007-08.

Since magnet attaches to mag release (even if it's on the other side), it is no longer a tool and thus illegal. Matters not that you attach it to a magazine or not. Magnets that touch/connect to metal of gun are legal FAIL for mag releases.

IntoForever
12-05-2011, 2:53 PM
With concerns of magnets attaching and previous mentions above, what if you mounted a magnet in the base of the magazine that had the same polarity as the magnet inside the locking mechanism. When you force the butt of the magazine against the locking portion the repulsion forces the lock to release the currently inserted magazine. The magnets would not be able to attach, potentially keeping this from being an issue? IANAL, do some research on it.

Merc1138
12-05-2011, 3:26 PM
With concerns of magnets attaching and previous mentions above, what if you mounted a magnet in the base of the magazine that had the same polarity as the magnet inside the locking mechanism. When you force the butt of the magazine against the locking portion the repulsion forces the lock to release the currently inserted magazine. The magnets would not be able to attach, potentially keeping this from being an issue? IANAL, do some research on it.

You mean have the magnets repel eachother? That would work, however you'd need a magnet small enough to fit in the mag release, and be strong enough for that(which is unlikely without a hell of an electromagnet, and that would require a hell of a power source).

Having a magnet pull on the mag catch from the left side of the rifle is the same problem as the mag magnet. The magnet would attach itself to the magazine catch. That's actually the same part that the already existing mag magnet sticks to. Moving it to the other side doesn't change the problem.

choprzrul
12-05-2011, 3:45 PM
The 'push' effect is the one to pursue here as it keeps the external magnet from 'attaching' to the weapon and thus becoming part of the weapon.

I am thinking more of an internal release mechanism that would allow the mag release button to function normally when the external magnet is present. With the external magnet removed, the mag release becomes inoperable or needs a bullet to operate. In other words, a small internal mechanism that has a small amount of magnatism & a small spring that locks the mag release. Upon introduction of the external magnet, the internal mechanism overcomes the resistance of the spring and unlocks the mag release.

The external magnet is the 'tool' that is required to remove the mag from the weapon. It could be inside a glove on your middle finger. It could be on your strong side thumb and used to hit a release lever. The possibilities are endless.

Devil is in the details as always....

.

Jpach
12-05-2011, 6:12 PM
Perhaps one could place the magnet(s) in a left handed glove on the "back hand" area of the glove so that the mag can be released by placing the intermediate/middle and distal phalanges on the mag catch with this grasp:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/AR-15-Magazine-Insertion-Tip-Dean-Caputo.jpg

Merc1138
12-05-2011, 6:27 PM
Perhaps one could place the magnet(s) in a left handed glove on the "back hand" area of the glove so that the mag can be released by placing the intermediate/middle and distal phalanges on the mag catch with this grasp:

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/AR-15-Magazine-Insertion-Tip-Dean-Caputo.jpg

And when the magnet attaches the glove or whatever you're using to the mag catch to pull on it and release the mag? It would be the same if you put a mag-magnet on the end of a glove, as soon as that magnet is attached to the magazine catch and allows you to drop the magazine while it is attached, you've got a problem.

Now what choprzrul mentioned, using the repulsion of magnets to push on a magnet in the release moving a mechanism out of the way to allow it to be pressed only when an repelling magnet is pushed against it would work. You would only need to be pressing against a light spring. But there are a few problems with that. You don't have much room to put a mechanism anywhere for it, it'd have to be able to take some abuse, and it would have to not jam in a position allowing the mag release to work without having the magnet pushing on it to release the locking mechanism.

nitroxdiver
12-05-2011, 7:03 PM
Having a magnet pull on the mag catch from the left side of the rifle is the same problem as the mag magnet. The magnet would attach itself to the magazine catch. That's actually the same part that the already existing mag magnet sticks to. Moving it to the other side doesn't change the problem.

Check. Thank you for your information. Figured there was no way I could have been the first person to think of this haha.

Ok guys, games over on my idea. Continue on with the discussion if you'd like for other alternative ideas. At the very least, it's a good mental exercise to try and come up with alternatives.

Take care everyone, have a great holiday, and thank you for the civil discussion.

Jpach
12-05-2011, 7:25 PM
Repulsion magnet does indeed sound safer

IntoForever
12-05-2011, 10:34 PM
Easy, make the normal release magnet a little larger than normal and on the other side of the lower have the magnet on a lever. Never messed with the resistance of magnets to know how much force is exerted. I think it's possible, however the pin on a magazine may be a simpler method and not attract debris.

Merc1138
12-05-2011, 11:11 PM
Easy, make the normal release magnet a little larger than normal and on the other side of the lower have the magnet on a lever. Never messed with the resistance of magnets to know how much force is exerted. I think it's possible, however the pin on a magazine may be a simpler method and not attract debris.

Other than the electromagnet thing I mentioned previously, there is another problem with using the repulsion of magnets. They want to slip. Ignoring the amount of force needed(and the size of the magnets needed) to overcome the spring tension on the magazine catch, if you can't line the magnet up it's never going to work reliably either.

Go find a couple of strong fridge magnets where the exposed sides repel eachother. Duct tape them to your fingertip and thumb(so you don't send one flying across the room, it won't take much tape and then try to squeeze them together. They will constantly want to slip off axis and slide past eachother. Obviously the magnet attached to the gun that you're going to repel with your tool magnet won't be moving, but 5-10 pounds of pressure is a lot to push straight down with no friction applied anywhere to keep your tool in place.

If you got the mag catch spring light enough it could be doable, but you still need enough tension on it to have a solid lockup and hold the mag in place(you don't want to have the rifle get bumped and then the mag just fall out, that would suck).

In addition to the issue of the magnets wanting to slip past eachother, now you have a problem with a steel magazine so close that you don't want your tool just slipping past the magnet on the mag catch and then sticking to the magazine. Easily solved by using polymer mags, but it's still something to consider.

Scratch705
12-06-2011, 2:09 AM
Idea discussed ad nauseum in 2007-08.

Since magnet attaches to mag release (even if it's on the other side), it is no longer a tool and thus illegal. Matters not that you attach it to a magazine or not. Magnets that touch/connect to metal of gun are legal FAIL for mag releases.

i thought the reason the magnet tool discussed before was a legal fail only due to the fact that it stayed on the gun and allowed normal operation of the magazine release.

with OP's idea, as long as the magnet is attached, the magazine release button does not work as normal, and would not allow magazines to lock in properly and would only fall out unless held in place. which negates the normal operation of the magazine release button. maybe that can be the difference needed to make this potentially viable?

cause this would be the same as if someone had a nub on their gloves and just held the nub in place on the button keeping it pushed down.

although one would think that if the sewn in nub on gloves passes legal muster, maybe a sewn in magnet on the glove can too? since it does attach to the gun in the same amount as the nub.

IntoForever
12-06-2011, 7:44 AM
i thought the reason the magnet tool discussed before was a legal fail only due to the fact that it stayed on the gun and allowed normal operation of the magazine release.
Which is why I went for the repulsion aspect. I was thinking of having a larger magnet in the base of the magazine. With a larger area you wouldn't have to aim, just kinda tap it and get a release. This may be more work than the return investment but I'd like to see it work if for nothing more than one more option against the idiotic laws here in CA.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 8:21 AM
i thought the reason the magnet tool discussed before was a legal fail only due to the fact that it stayed on the gun and allowed normal operation of the magazine release.

with OP's idea, as long as the magnet is attached, the magazine release button does not work as normal, and would not allow magazines to lock in properly and would only fall out unless held in place. which negates the normal operation of the magazine release button. maybe that can be the difference needed to make this potentially viable?

cause this would be the same as if someone had a nub on their gloves and just held the nub in place on the button keeping it pushed down.

although one would think that if the sewn in nub on gloves passes legal muster, maybe a sewn in magnet on the glove can too? since it does attach to the gun in the same amount as the nub.

The AW laws have nothing to do with the release button working as normal. Attaching a device to the left side of the magazine catch and pulling would be the same as attaching it to the right side and pushing.

You're able to drop the magazine by manipulating something attached to the rifle.

choprzrul
12-06-2011, 8:29 AM
Other than the electromagnet thing I mentioned previously, there is another problem with using the repulsion of magnets. They want to slip. Ignoring the amount of force needed(and the size of the magnets needed) to overcome the spring tension on the magazine catch, if you can't line the magnet up it's never going to work reliably either.

Go find a couple of strong fridge magnets where the exposed sides repel eachother. Duct tape them to your fingertip and thumb(so you don't send one flying across the room, it won't take much tape and then try to squeeze them together. They will constantly want to slip off axis and slide past eachother. Obviously the magnet attached to the gun that you're going to repel with your tool magnet won't be moving, but 5-10 pounds of pressure is a lot to push straight down with no friction applied anywhere to keep your tool in place.

If you got the mag catch spring light enough it could be doable, but you still need enough tension on it to have a solid lockup and hold the mag in place(you don't want to have the rifle get bumped and then the mag just fall out, that would suck).

In addition to the issue of the magnets wanting to slip past eachother, now you have a problem with a steel magazine so close that you don't want your tool just slipping past the magnet on the mag catch and then sticking to the magazine. Easily solved by using polymer mags, but it's still something to consider.

You need not overcome the resistance of the mag release itself if you are overcoming a release pin instead.

Let's think about the side of a 1911. It has a small round housing with springs and a pin that put resistance on the slide release and thumb safety.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Lightweight%201911s_files/image018.jpg Now, imagine that pin being magnetized and sliding into a hole on the mag release on an AR. Now, when the magnet in your glove approaches the mag release button, the two magnets try to move away from each other. The one in your glove is in position and the one on the gun moves against a very light spring, thus unlocking the mag release.

If need be, the release pin housing could be slotted on the bottom so that a FMJ bullet tip could be used to manually release the mag release catch.

Here is a picture of a release button that could easily have this type of magnetic release located horizontally towards the mag well:

http://www.phase5tactical.com/_common/_core/server/svr-image.asp?fle=ftp/product-images/mrtonar.jpg&maxw=347

Ignore all of the other stuff in the photo, just look at that mag release button.

With your finger in the trigger housing, the pin would slide forward and lock the mag release button. When you move your finger up to the mag release, the resistance of the magnets would push the pin back towards the light spring and make it so that the mag release button operates normally.

.

goodlookin1
12-06-2011, 10:07 AM
Well, aside from all the people saying that the magnets are 100% ILLEGAL in the first place (hasnt been meted out in the courts yet, and there's NO PC that define's when a tool is no longer a tool), for the sake of argument, I am going to continue as if magnetic devices that are stuck on the rifle are 100% illegal.

If you want to stay in compliance, or have no change in how you release the magazine catch right now, then any magnetic device that one uses cannot stick to or have the ability to stay on the rifle. So what we're talking about here is a magnet that is permanently attached to the magazine (hint: No different that the UBBT), but the difference lies in the fact that it ***may*** have the ability to stick to the magazine catch. In this case, that would be bad. What one needs to do is find a magnet that will have a strong enough attraction to the magazine catch that it will pull it enough to release the mag, but ALSO have little enough strength so that if you were to let go of the magazine that is pulling the mag catch, it would drop to the ground/table instead of staying attached to the rifle.

My thinking is that a full magazine will easily drop away from the rifle, given the right magnet and yet still have enough strength to pull the mag catch. But an empty magazine might be such that the magnet is strong enough to hold onto the mag catch rather than drop off the rifle.

I think if you can find that happy-medium balance between mag weight and magnet strength so that it satisfies both situations, it **should** be LEGALLY no different than using the UBBT.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 10:12 AM
You need not overcome the resistance of the mag release itself if you are overcoming a release pin instead.
.

I wasn't talking about your idea. The problem with your idea is the additional pins and lockwork involved, in addition to the possibility of it jamming in the unlocked position. I already posted that your idea only requires a minimal amount of force. The post you quoted was about using a magnet attached to the catch to repel a magnet pushed against it.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 10:15 AM
Well, aside from all the people saying that the magnets are 100% ILLEGAL in the first place (hasnt been meted out in the courts yet, and there's NO PC that define's when a tool is no longer a tool), for the sake of argument, I am going to continue as if magnetic devices that are stuck on the rifle are 100% illegal.

If you want to stay in compliance, or have no change in how you release the magazine catch right now, then any magnetic device that one uses cannot stick to or have the ability to stay on the rifle. So what we're talking about here is a magnet that is permanently attached to the magazine (hint: No different that the UBBT), but the difference lies in the fact that it ***may*** have the ability to stick to the magazine catch. In this case, that would be bad. What one needs to do is find a magnet that will have a strong enough attraction to the magazine catch that it will pull it enough to release the mag, but ALSO have little enough strength so that if you were to let go of the magazine that is pulling the mag catch, it would drop to the ground/table instead of staying attached to the rifle.

My thinking is that a full magazine will easily drop away from the rifle, given the right magnet and yet still have enough strength to pull the mag catch. But an empty magazine might be such that the magnet is strong enough to hold onto the mag catch rather than drop off the rifle.

I think if you can find that happy-medium balance between mag weight and magnet strength so that it satisfies both situations, it **should** be LEGALLY no different than using the UBBT.

Having a magazine attached to the magnet that is attached to the rifle, doesn't change that it's attached. It's especially a problem if your magazines become a lot lighter(empty) can could still be attached to the rifle and pulled on to release the mag. You're not going to overcome the mag catch spring and have the empty mag with the magnet attached to it just free-fall from the side of the rifle if not held in place.

fixitoscar
12-06-2011, 11:49 AM
what if the mag was weighted in some way. Like a 10/30 with a weight inside. Just enough to were it wont stick.

goodlookin1
12-06-2011, 12:38 PM
Having a magazine attached to the magnet that is attached to the rifle, doesn't change that it's attached. It's especially a problem if your magazines become a lot lighter(empty) can could still be attached to the rifle and pulled on to release the mag. You're not going to overcome the mag catch spring and have the empty mag with the magnet attached to it just free-fall from the side of the rifle if not held in place.

I was keeping in line with the status quo: Apparently, there are no qualms (that i've seen) with having the nipple on the bottom end of the magazine to be used as a bullet button, and obviously while the magazine is attached to the rifle in the magwell, the magazine cannot be turned around to be used in to actuate the bullet button. So if you're okay with the Ultimate Bullet Button Tool, then you should be okay with the magnet in the mag's base....of course, as long as it will not stick to the rifle without the manipulation of the hands (it cant hold on by itself).

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 1:12 PM
I was keeping in line with the status quo: Apparently, there are no qualms (that i've seen) with having the nipple on the bottom end of the magazine to be used as a bullet button, and obviously while the magazine is attached to the rifle in the magwell, the magazine cannot be turned around to be used in to actuate the bullet button. So if you're okay with the Ultimate Bullet Button Tool, then you should be okay with the magnet in the mag's base....of course, as long as it will not stick to the rifle without the manipulation of the hands (it cant hold on by itself).

Except that the UBBT in it's usable state(pushing on the BB to drop the mag) isn't attached to the rifle.

Having a magnet attached to a magazine, strong enough to pull on the mag catch WILL stick to the rifle.

"But if the magazine is full then it won't actually stick, it'll fall off"

Ok, what if the mag is empty? You would end up with an empty magazine hanging off of the mag catch, attached with a magnet.

You could weigh the magazines(like a 10/30) down like fixitoscar mentioned, but the problem with that is "how heavy does it need to be?" since it's not like adding weight unnecessarily to components is a good thing. If making the mag with a magnet glued on the end heavy enough so it can't stick to the mag catch with it's own weight worked, you still have the issue of people doing it wrong.

People unscrewing the original prince 50 to drop the mag, they were doing it wrong.

People using "multi-mode" mag locks in the wrong position, they're doing it wrong.

People screwing in their BB wonder wrench(that red thing) while in this state, they're doing it wrong.

The list goes on and on, and you get my point. Obviously the problems with those isn't the product, rather how easy it is for an idiot to mis-use them. People are barely capable of understanding "don't shove that there" and I do not expect a lot(not a majority, but still a lot) of people to understand magnet strength and weight of the magazine. People have finally figured out how to use a ruler to measure something when used as a block in a magazine. This would blow their minds, kind of like ICP( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvmvxAcT_Yc there's some language... but yeah those are some idiot entertainers who can't understand magnets, and those idiots have fans)

goodlookin1
12-06-2011, 1:33 PM
Except that the UBBT in it's usable state(pushing on the BB to drop the mag) isn't attached to the rifle.

Having a magnet attached to a magazine, strong enough to pull on the mag catch WILL stick to the rifle.

"But if the magazine is full then it won't actually stick, it'll fall off"

Ok, what if the mag is empty? You would end up with an empty magazine hanging off of the mag catch, attached with a magnet.

You could weigh the magazines(like a 10/30) down like fixitoscar mentioned, but the problem with that is "how heavy does it need to be?" since it's not like adding weight unnecessarily to components is a good thing. If making the mag with a magnet glued on the end heavy enough so it can't stick to the mag catch with it's own weight worked, you still have the issue of people doing it wrong.

People unscrewing the original prince 50 to drop the mag, they were doing it wrong.

People using "multi-mode" mag locks in the wrong position, they're doing it wrong.

People screwing in their BB wonder wrench(that red thing) while in this state, they're doing it wrong.

The list goes on and on, and you get my point. Obviously the problems with those isn't the product, rather how easy it is for an idiot to mis-use them. People are barely capable of understanding "don't shove that there" and I do not expect a lot(not a majority, but still a lot) of people to understand magnet strength and weight of the magazine. People have finally figured out how to use a ruler to measure something when used as a block in a magazine. This would blow their minds, kind of like ICP( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvmvxAcT_Yc there's some language... but yeah those are some idiot entertainers who can't understand magnets, and those idiots have fans)

Which is why I said this in my original post:

What one needs to do is find a magnet that will have a strong enough attraction to the magazine catch that it will pull it enough to release the mag, but ALSO have little enough strength so that if you were to let go of the magazine that is pulling the mag catch, it would drop to the ground/table instead of staying attached to the rifle.

Yes, you're right. If taking the advice of the legal scholars on here, then yes....you cannot have the mag stick to the rifle.

I dont worry about people doing it wrong. People do it wrong with any bullet button variation anyhow, just like you mentioned. But this idea is pretty foolproof, so long as you have a magnet thats strong enough to pull the mag catch, but weak enough to let an empty mag drop freely from the rifle.

And then you have the "intention of the law" come into play.....is someone really going to get around the "use of a tool" by having a big magazine sticking off the side of their rifle? It's impractical at best, and it would be a really stupid looking attempt at subverting the law. Plus, any real use with the rifle and you would see your mag fly off.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 1:41 PM
Which is why I said this in my original post:



Yes, you're right. If taking the advice of the legal scholars on here, then yes....you cannot have the mag stick to the rifle.

I dont worry about people doing it wrong. People do it wrong with any bullet button variation anyhow, just like you mentioned. But this idea is pretty foolproof, so long as you have a magnet thats strong enough to pull the mag catch, but weak enough to let an empty mag drop freely from the rifle.

And then you have the "intention of the law" come into play.....is someone really going to get around the "use of a tool" by having a big magazine sticking off the side of their rifle? It's impractical at best, and it would be a really stupid looking attempt at subverting the law. Plus, any real use with the rifle and you would see your mag fly off.

Practicality of the object attached to the rifle and whether or not, and how hard you need to swing it around to get it to come flying off of the rifle has nothing to do with how the law was written, or the intent of it.

If you bolt a traffic cone onto your rifle and it allows you to drop the magazine, it doesn't matter. If it only takes enough force from the fart of a duck to detach it, it doesn't matter.

Attached is attached.

The reason the UBBT doesn't count when the mag is inserted in the mag well, is the same reason your firing pin doesn't count. It can't be used to drop the magazine while attached. choprzrul has an idea(that might not be feasible, but it makes sense and satisfies any current interpretations of the law), while everyone else is just re-hashing the same thing over and over.

edit: Here's a thought. Anyone with a standard mag release also happen to have a trigger pull guage that they can slip through the trigger guard and pull on the mag release from the left side with? It'd give us a better idea of how strong the mag needs to be, and how heavy the 10/30 that a magnet is glued to would need to be. I'd check myself, but I don't have access to it at the moment.

goodlookin1
12-06-2011, 2:20 PM
Practicality of the object attached to the rifle and whether or not, and how hard you need to swing it around to get it to come flying off of the rifle has nothing to do with how the law was written, or the intent of it.

If you bolt a traffic cone onto your rifle and it allows you to drop the magazine, it doesn't matter. If it only takes enough force from the fart of a duck to detach it, it doesn't matter.

Attached is attached.

The reason the UBBT doesn't count when the mag is inserted in the mag well, is the same reason your firing pin doesn't count. It can't be used to drop the magazine while attached. choprzrul has an idea(that might not be feasible, but it makes sense and satisfies any current interpretations of the law), while everyone else is just re-hashing the same thing over and over.

edit: Here's a thought. Anyone with a standard mag release also happen to have a trigger pull guage that they can slip through the trigger guard and pull on the mag release from the left side with? It'd give us a better idea of how strong the mag needs to be, and how heavy the 10/30 that a magnet is glued to would need to be. I'd check myself, but I don't have access to it at the moment.

You're going off of interpretation of the law, not direct law. Show me in the PC or the CCR's where it says the tool must not be attached? Show me a definition that defines what a "tool" is, and show me that the tool stops being a tool if it is attached, and instead becomes an "accessory/attachment/extension".

You wont find anything, but you can try. I looked, and there's nothing.

I'm not saying go a head and use a magnet any way you want....I STRONGLY advise against it, unless you want to be a test case and potentially lose your gun rights forever! However, the truth of the matter is, the issue of having a tool "attached" to the rifle has not been meted out in the courts. Until that happens, we can spin our wheels all day long. You're not right, and I'm not right. There IS NO right at the moment, in regards to this situation. This is why in my first post, I said "for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume it's illegal".

For more info on the legal aspect of it, see this (http://www.calgunlaws.com/images/stories/Docs/aw%20weapons%20modifications%20memo.pdf) document.

Cyc Wid It
12-06-2011, 2:26 PM
This sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing. OP's idea is novel but impractical.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 2:32 PM
You're going off of interpretation of the law, not direct law. Show me in the PC or the CCR's where it says the tool must not be attached? Show me a definition that defines what a "tool" is, and show me that the tool stops being a tool if it is attached, and instead becomes an "accessory/attachment/extension".

You wont find anything, but you can try. I looked, and there's nothing.

I'm not saying go a head and use a magnet any way you want....I STRONGLY advise against it, unless you want to be a test case and potentially lose your gun rights forever! However, the truth of the matter is, the issue of having a tool "attached" to the rifle has not been meted out in the courts. Until that happens, we can spin our wheels all day long. You're not right, and I'm not right. There IS NO right at the moment, in regards to this situation. This is why in my first post, I said "for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume it's illegal".

For more info on the legal aspect of it, see this (http://www.calgunlaws.com/images/stories/Docs/aw%20weapons%20modifications%20memo.pdf) document.

Ok, so why don't you just tie a tool to your trigger guard then and skip the magnets altogether? Or just use the mag magnet? Still doesn't make a difference regarding the statement of mine you marked as bold either.

Quick, lets all go get magmagnets because goodlookin1 said so but didn't really, so there's no point in the comment goodlookin1 even made in the first place...

Like Cyc Wid It pointed out, that's just arguing for the sake of arguing. I was actually looking at it from a technical perspective(how strong to the magnets need to be, can a locking mechanism get jammed), you just want to play devil's advocate(polite term for "troll").

Fate
12-06-2011, 2:45 PM
i thought the reason the magnet tool discussed before was a legal fail only due to the fact that it stayed on the gun and allowed normal operation of the magazine release.No. It was also looked at in the "pull version" that the OP describes. Attached is attached and thus "part of the gun" even if it releases the mag in a way contrary to the original design. The idea back in the day was a strong magnet glued to a ring on the offhand that was used to pull the mag release.
although one would think that if the sewn in nub on gloves passes legal muster, maybe a sewn in magnet on the glove can too? since it does attach to the gun in the same amount as the nub.
Bolded part hasn't been tested in court. Be careful assuming things have penal code or case law backing their use.

Merc1138
12-06-2011, 7:48 PM
So because like I asked(and no one answered), I checked 2 lowers with a trigger pull scale.

Spikes tactical LPK with standard mag catch, 5 pounds(consistent).

Prince 50 BB w/ wonder wrench(no upper of course, and I needed the WW so I'd have something to pull on with the trigger scale), 2 pounds(consistent).

I was measuring how much force was required to pull the button from the left side to drop the mag. If all it really takes is 3 pounds worth of magnet(not very big) attached to a mag, to overcome the spring in a BB, that's pretty reasonable. However we still have a problem. The magazine with the magnet attached needs to weigh enough when empty, so it that it doesn't stay attached to the mag catch. Obviously it's a bit more complicated, but basically using a 4 pound magazine to overcome a 3 pound magnet to overcome a 2 pound spring.

The loaded magazine would be 1/3 the weight of the rifle. We just turned an 8 pound AR(not an uncommon weight) into a 12 pound rifle. Hey, now that triple mag pouch you have weighs an extra 12 pounds. While you're at it, might as well throw some bricks in your camelbak while you're running around doing whatever it is that you needed a quicker mag release(but don't want to just go featureless).

goodlookin1
12-07-2011, 6:21 AM
Ok, so why don't you just tie a tool to your trigger guard then and skip the magnets altogether? Or just use the mag magnet? Still doesn't make a difference regarding the statement of mine you marked as bold either.

Quick, lets all go get magmagnets because goodlookin1 said so but didn't really, so there's no point in the comment goodlookin1 even made in the first place...

Like Cyc Wid It pointed out, that's just arguing for the sake of arguing. I was actually looking at it from a technical perspective(how strong to the magnets need to be, can a locking mechanism get jammed), you just want to play devil's advocate(polite term for "troll").

You are the most frustrating person to have a discussion with. Evidently, you never read my entire first post.

1) I specifically stated "FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT..." I was not looking to play devils advocate (hint: play the troll). Read the full post before commenting.

2) I specifically stated, in no uncertain terms, that I STRONGLY recommend NOT using a magmagnet or anything attached. The fact that it is not strictly illegal, per se, is another issue that I wanted to avoid discussing. Your Red Herring arguments aren't going to work here....I never advocated buying and using them.

3) I was looking at it from a technical perspective (IE: magnet strength vs weight). Again, if you would have read my entire first post, you would have seen that I was doing just that.


Not sure what your beef is with me, nor understand why you feel you have to win an argument that I never attempted to make. In any case, I fully understand what you are saying, and assuming the illegality of such a device or setup, I agree with everything that you have said except one part. The point where we (may) disagree....[I dont want to assume]....is that you say "attached is attached". I disagree in part, namely that attached is only attached if you are making no effort to keep it attached, and it stays attached by itself. If you were to let the magazine with the magnet go and it sticks to your rifle by itself, allowing you to manipulate the mag catch freely, then that would be a bad thing (based on most people's interpretation of the legality, including myself). But if it attaches to the rifle but will not hold by itself, then I dont consider that "attached" at any point during the mag change. Do you agree or disagree?



So because like I asked(and no one answered), I checked 2 lowers with a trigger pull scale.

Spikes tactical LPK with standard mag catch, 5 pounds(consistent).

Prince 50 BB w/ wonder wrench(no upper of course, and I needed the WW so I'd have something to pull on with the trigger scale), 2 pounds(consistent).

I was measuring how much force was required to pull the button from the left side to drop the mag. If all it really takes is 3 pounds worth of magnet(not very big) attached to a mag, to overcome the spring in a BB, that's pretty reasonable. However we still have a problem. The magazine with the magnet attached needs to weigh enough when empty, so it that it doesn't stay attached to the mag catch. Obviously it's a bit more complicated, but basically using a 4 pound magazine to overcome a 3 pound magnet to overcome a 2 pound spring.

The loaded magazine would be 1/3 the weight of the rifle. We just turned an 8 pound AR(not an uncommon weight) into a 12 pound rifle. Hey, now that triple mag pouch you have weighs an extra 12 pounds. While you're at it, might as well throw some bricks in your camelbak while you're running around doing whatever it is that you needed a quicker mag release(but don't want to just go featureless).

The bolded is important, and good information to know. There's also a different measurement that needs to be given as well, however, and that is the amount of weight that the magnet needs to hold in order to keep the magazine from sliding down the side of the rifle. The pull weight of a magnet is measured by pulling the magnetic parts directly away from each other, but it takes much less weight to slide them apart. In this case, you said "a 4 pound magazine to overcome a 3 pound magnet to overcome a 2 pound spring." That should certainly work, but you might be able to get away with less. What that is, I dont know. I'd love to test it out, but I dont have a source for a bunch of different sized magnets. Hmm, thinking this through again, it's probably the best idea to test so that ANY form of "attachment" doesnt happen, whether it's sideways, upside-down or any other direction. It would be best to test it in the most difficult "falling off" point possible so that you're safe with everything else.

I really think this solution could work, but it's just a matter of finding the right balance in order to stay in compliance with the way this law has been interpreted by people "in the know".

Merc1138
12-07-2011, 7:54 AM
You are the most frustrating person to have a discussion with. Evidently, you never read my entire first post.

1) I specifically stated "FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT..." I was not looking to play devils advocate (hint: play the troll). Read the full post before commenting.

2) I specifically stated, in no uncertain terms, that I STRONGLY recommend NOT using a magmagnet or anything attached. The fact that it is not strictly illegal, per se, is another issue that I wanted to avoid discussing. Your Red Herring arguments aren't going to work here....I never advocated buying and using them.

3) I was looking at it from a technical perspective (IE: magnet strength vs weight). Again, if you would have read my entire first post, you would have seen that I was doing just that.


Not sure what your beef is with me, nor understand why you feel you have to win an argument that I never attempted to make. In any case, I fully understand what you are saying, and assuming the illegality of such a device or setup, I agree with everything that you have said except one part. The point where we (may) disagree....[I dont want to assume]....is that you say "attached is attached". I disagree in part, namely that attached is only attached if you are making no effort to keep it attached, and it stays attached by itself. If you were to let the magazine with the magnet go and it sticks to your rifle by itself, allowing you to manipulate the mag catch freely, then that would be a bad thing (based on most people's interpretation of the legality, including myself). But if it attaches to the rifle but will not hold by itself, then I dont consider that "attached" at any point during the mag change. Do you agree or disagree?





The bolded is important, and good information to know. There's also a different measurement that needs to be given as well, however, and that is the amount of weight that the magnet needs to hold in order to keep the magazine from sliding down the side of the rifle. The pull weight of a magnet is measured by pulling the magnetic parts directly away from each other, but it takes much less weight to slide them apart. In this case, you said "a 4 pound magazine to overcome a 3 pound magnet to overcome a 2 pound spring." That should certainly work, but you might be able to get away with less. What that is, I dont know. I'd love to test it out, but I dont have a source for a bunch of different sized magnets. Hmm, thinking this through again, it's probably the best idea to test so that ANY form of "attachment" doesnt happen, whether it's sideways, upside-down or any other direction. It would be best to test it in the most difficult "falling off" point possible so that you're safe with everything else.

I really think this solution could work, but it's just a matter of finding the right balance in order to stay in compliance with the way this law has been interpreted by people "in the know".

Even if it only took magazines that weigh 3 pounds when empty, that's ****ty. Yeah, it takes less weight to slide the thing off, but it doesn't matter since you need to be able to not leave it attached at any angle(well, likely except for the the mag catch facing the sky. Heck, with gravity I can set something in a BB

1. Yeah, that's trolling.
2. I didn't say you did(read my posts before asking me to read yours), but you either think they're legal or you don't. There is no "semi-legal" option.
3. I thought you were posting for the sake of argument.

goodlookin1
12-07-2011, 8:45 AM
Even if it only took magazines that weigh 3 pounds when empty, that's ****ty. Yeah, it takes less weight to slide the thing off, but it doesn't matter since you need to be able to not leave it attached at any angle(well, likely except for the the mag catch facing the sky. Heck, with gravity I can set something in a BB

1. Yeah, that's trolling.
2. I didn't say you did(read my posts before asking me to read yours), but you either think they're legal or you don't. There is no "semi-legal" option.
3. I thought you were posting for the sake of argument.

Agreed that 3lb mags are stupid. That would be worse than the BB itself!

1) "for the sake of argument", as used in the context of my original post, means "because of the potential for argument".

2) What does this mean? "lets all go get magmagnets because goodlookin1 said so but didn't really". Sounds like you are saying I implied we can all go buy magmagnets and use them.....I didnt. And as for semi-legal, no there is officially no semi-legal. Semi-legal = gray areas of law. Are you are suggesting that there is no such things as interpretation of law?

3) See #1.

Now we're arguing :p Guess #1's out the window. :rolleyes:

Merc1138
12-07-2011, 8:50 AM
Agreed that 3lb mags are stupid. That would be worse than the BB itself!

1) "for the sake of argument" means "so that we dont argue".

2) What does this mean? "lets all go get magmagnets because goodlookin1 said so but didn't really". Sounds like you are saying I implied we can all go buy magmagnets and use them.....I didnt. And as for semi-legal, no there is officially no semi-legal. Semi-legal = gray areas of law. Are you are suggesting that there is no such things as interpretation of law?

3) See #1.

Now we're arguing :p Guess #1's out the window. :rolleyes:

Make up your mind. You think magmagnets are legal or they aren't.

"This is why in my first post, I said "for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume it's illegal"."

Well which is it? This is a yes or no question. You make a statement indicating you think it's legal, then you make another indicating you think it's illegal. Knock off the "devil's advocate/trolling/for the sake of argument" garbage and make up your mind.

goodlookin1
12-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Make up your mind. You think magmagnets are legal or they aren't.

"This is why in my first post, I said "for the sake of argument, I'm going to assume it's illegal"."

Well which is it? This is a yes or no question. You make a statement indicating you think it's legal, then you make another indicating you think it's illegal. Knock off the "devil's advocate/trolling/for the sake of argument" garbage and make up your mind.

You're funny. What does it matter what I think? I'm not a judge, I'm not a lawmaker, and I'm certainly not a lawyer. What I think matters very, very little.

But I'll play ;)

I think it's probably illegal, as I have said. Not because of the written law, but because of how judges and jury members would see it. I certainly wouldnt test it or be willing to be a case subject for it. I dont believe there have been any cases on this specific issue that would bear a concrete "legal/illegal" answer.

I think you're reading between the lines too much. Any argument for the legal side is not to try and say "yes, it's legal...we should all go out and get one". No, not even close. What would have happened if the people in the very beginning of the OLL didnt carefully read the law and think of ways around it? The reason a bullet button came about was because someone looked at the law and said, "well, it doesnt say that I CANT do this..." I am trying to think outside the box, and maybe, just maybe...something can come from it; either a discussion, an idea, new product, work-around, etc. So if you want to call this a "devil's advocate" stance, fine. But i'm not doing that just for SAG's. It's my way of thinking the process through and getting feedback/ideas from like-minded people.

If you dont like it, no one is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to participate...

NulodPBall
01-02-2012, 3:07 PM
The AW laws have nothing to do with the release button working as normal. Attaching a device to the left side of the magazine catch and pulling would be the same as attaching it to the right side and pushing.

You're able to drop the magazine by manipulating something attached to the rifle.

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but if the magnet is attached to the left side, allowing the mag to drop, the magazine release is now held in the OPEN position and you can not return the gun to normal operation until you pull the magnet off and allow the new magazine to lock into place.

Another way of saying this is that if you keep the magnet in place, your AR-15 is now a single fire gun...you must load a single round into the chamber because you have no possibility of fixing a magazine in place.

To me, that is an important distinction. :cool2:

Now I guess the question is, does 12276.1 allow my distinction to be important?