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tatt00edangel
12-04-2011, 8:48 AM
I'm new to the ak world but I'd like to get my feet wet.

Arsenal, WASR, Century Arms, Saiga, etc. what brands should I stay away from, what.brands are more reliable. A local shop custom makes their own shop version, is that a good choice? What are typical prices?

CSACANNONEER
12-04-2011, 8:53 AM
I'd suggest surfing this forum a little. This discussion has been covered many many times. BTW, Arsenals are just Saiga and WASRs are Century imports.

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 9:30 AM
I'd suggest surfing this forum a little. This discussion has been covered many many times. BTW, Arsenals are just Saiga and WASRs are Century imports.

I'm surprised you didn't say stay away from I.O. CASARs...

Well, watch out for CASARs. :D Some get lucky, most don't.

Unless it's for a $100.;)


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NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 9:37 AM
WASR's are gonna be the best for your money!
But best of all would be to go into the gunsmithing section find a build party near you, buy a parts kit and build your own beast the way you want it.

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 9:40 AM
WASR's are gonna be the best for your money!
But best of all would be to go into the gunsmithing section find a build party near you, buy a parts kit and build your own beast the way you want it.

What did you think about that Arsenal SGL 23-61 in San Jose for $450 two days ago?

Whoever bought it scored big time.

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Mamluke
12-04-2011, 9:57 AM
Inter Arms Company AKs.
Waffen Werks AKs.


What look are you after in your AK? the modern or the classic?

What caliber are you after for your AK? 7.62 or 5.45?

In a nutshell:

7.62x39 carries tremendous energy upon impacting the target because of its mass. Up to 300 yards, in any situation. Fairly accurate.

5.45x39 more muzzle velocity, flatter trajectory & more range (lighter round) & will cause horrific tissue wounds. It will change direction, over steer or yaw if it touches anything in its path, like thick brush/wood etc... the air pocket/cavity near the tip of the round makes the heavier rear push forward! More accurate with a clear line of sight to the target.

Are you a hands on kinda of a guy & wanna built your own, or just purchase one?


What to look for:

b2aNahgL8yM

Let us know how it goes!

... :popcorn: ...

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 9:59 AM
What did you think about that Arsenal SGL 23-61 in San Jose for $450 two days ago?

Whoever bought it scored big time.

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Yeah that was a great deal if saiga sporters are your thing. A saiga sporter is always gonna be a saiga sporter no matter how many evil features you add to it. As much as we like to think that it's built to the same standards as a battlefield AK, i'm sure its made for a profit not for defending mother Russia.
I'd take a bfpu ak parts kit anyday over a saiga.
But with that saiga yoy can get the 556 and 308 which I have. Oh and my saiga 308 is converted and for trade dor a nice AK parts kit lol

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 10:18 AM
b2aNahgL8yM



LOL! "The bullet button is U.S. made... "

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 10:23 AM
Yeah that was a great deal if saiga sporters are your thing. A saiga sporter is always gonna be a saiga sporter no matter how many evil features you add to it. As much as we like to think that it's built to the same standards as a battlefield AK, i'm sure its made for a profit not for defending mother Russia.
I'd take a bfpu ak parts kit anyday over a saiga.
But with that saiga yoy can get the 556 and 308 which I have. Oh and my saiga 308 is converted and for trade dor a nice AK parts kit lol

I don't think there is anything wrong with a Saiga conversion. That SGL listed in the marketplace two days ago would be a good first AK for the OP for the money. At $450 a used WASR couldn't beat that price (I don't know what condition it was in but heck it's an AK).

I yes I see you've got a .308... I've been keeping an eye on that waiting for the price to go down.;)


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Shooter88
12-04-2011, 10:25 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with a Saiga conversion. That SGL listed in the marketplace two days ago would be a good first AK for the OP for the money. At $450 a used WASR couldn't beat that price (I don't know what condition it was in but heck it's an AK).

I yes I see you've got a .308... I've been keeping an eye on that waiting for the price to go down.;)


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There isn't anything wrong converting a Saiga, and it will perform just as well as a any WASR.

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 10:26 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with a Saiga conversion. That SGL listed in the marketplace two days ago would be a good first AK for the OP for the money. At $450 a used WASR couldn't beat that price (I don't know what condition it was in but heck it's an AK).

I yes I see you've got a .308... I've been keeping an eye on that waiting for the price to go down.;)


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Lol price wont go down, i'm into it too much and i'm more interested in trading it for a good parts kit than actual $, plus as much as I say bad about saigas I do love that s308

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 10:28 AM
There isn't anything wrong converting a Saiga, and it will perform just as well as a any WASR.

Maybe?

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 10:40 AM
Lol price wont go down, i'm into it too much and i'm more interested in trading it for a good parts kit than actual $, plus as much as I say bad about saigas I do love that s308

I remember you telling Nico about trading that with the 105s we we're building that day.

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 10:52 AM
There isn't anything wrong converting a Saiga, and it will perform just as well as a any WASR.

Amen!

Maybe?
You're making me think that there's something wrong with your conversion with that statement.
It should perform just as well...

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 12:09 PM
Amen!


You're making me think that there's something wrong with your conversion with that statement.
It should perform just as well...

Nah actually it performs great! But back to my point the saiga never has been put thru war and though its a ak style clone I dont believe that they are built to full military quality.
Everyone says saigas are Real AK's but its not being built to defend a country its built for profit.
Ohh and if you ever wanna shoot it you can just bring ammo or buy some from me. I dont care if you buy it or not I always let people shoot any of my rifles.

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Nah actually it performs great! But back to my point the saiga never has been put thru war and though its a ak style clone I dont believe that they are built to full military quality.
Everyone says saigas are Real AK's but its not being built to defend a country its built for profit.

I understand your point, but consider the OP wants his first AK. I'm not suggesting that he should get a Saiga, WASR, Arsenal, but I did say to watch out for IO CASARs. He can also build one if he chooses to. He can find all these things here in the marketplace.



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Mamluke
12-04-2011, 12:39 PM
... I did say to watch out for IO CASARs. He can also build one if he chooses to. He can find all these things here in the marketplace

... Most prolific thing you've said ....

..

..

..... so far ... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/doorpeek.gif

NorCalk9.com .... hats off ... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/2thumbs.gif

......... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/cheers.gif .........

..

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 1:02 PM
... Most prolific thing you've said ....

..

..

..... so far ... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/doorpeek.gif



Well, I'm not a PROLIFIC poster ;)...


Don't get me wrong I love the "classic" look less the grenade launching barrel, but since the parts kit these days are getting scarce, then sooner or later we'll be stuck with limited options. Personally I don't mind converting a Saiga 'coz I know it will go bang.

I will not dissuade anyone from getting something they want. It's their money, it's their gun. Nor will I lead them to doing something illegal or doing something that may get them into trouble. :p


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Mamluke
12-04-2011, 1:16 PM
Personally I don't mind converting a Saiga 'coz I know it will go bang

For sure it will, every time. To each is his own personal preference, and that's perfectly OK!

I will not dissuade anyone from getting something they want. It's their money, it's their gun

No one is, all you can do is say your two cents, it'll be up to them to do what they please with their money.

Nor will I lead them to doing something illegal or doing something that may get them into trouble. :p

For your sake & mine, we'd better NOT! ... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/deal.gif

tatt00edangel
12-04-2011, 1:53 PM
Thanks for the input. I do like the classic wood furniture, although I saw a nice ash wood outfitted wasr at one of the shows. I am hands on and am pretty good at tinkering, but I think for my forst one I'd like to.buy it, break it down to see how it works, then build one later. Whats an acceptable price for a wasr, the one I saw with the ash furniture was $749. But that seemed high from what I read about aks. What should I be looking for in terms of quality benchmarks? I'm more familiar with the ar olatform so I'm totally in the dark. What about a build made by my local shop? How can I tell if its a legit build?

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 2:10 PM
Thanks for the input. I do like the classic wood furniture, although I saw a nice ash wood outfitted wasr at one of the shows. I am hands on and am pretty good at tinkering, but I think for my forst one I'd like to.buy it, break it down to see how it works, then build one later.

Smart decision.

Whats an acceptable price for a wasr, the one I saw with the ash furniture was $749. But that seemed high from what I read about aks. What should I be looking for in terms of quality benchmarks? What about a build made by my local shop? How can I tell if its a legit build?

$749- is way too high.

I suggest you search the Marketplace (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=92) and compare prices.


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Mamluke
12-04-2011, 2:16 PM
What should I be looking for in terms of quality benchmarks? I'm more familiar with the ar olatform so I'm totally in the dark. What about a build made by my local shop? How can I tell if its a legit build?

$749 is high for a wasr
Look for dimples in the receiver right above the mag well, so you won't have any wobble issues.
Look for a rifle that will take double stack AK military spec mags, not a single stack, like some of the lower priced wasrs!
Receiver mag well should sit dead center at the bottom. Look for canted sites, gas block etc...

Good luck

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 2:23 PM
$749 is high for a wasr
Look for dimples in the receiver right above the mag well, so you won't have any wobble issues.
Look for a rifle that will take double stack AK military spec mags, not a single stack, like some of the lower priced wasrs!
Receiver mag well should sit dead center at the bottom. Look for canted sites, gas block etc...

Good luck

See there you go sending him off to a fools errand.:D

WASR = no above the mag well dimple.

Other than that you got it right.


@ OP- FYI- must be Ca. compliant (Mag-lock, 10 round mags, no night vision scopes).:43:

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tatt00edangel
12-04-2011, 2:57 PM
Just watched that video, whats a good source for AK kits? Is it a difficult build (I can build an AR lower easily,and take down the upper just as easy)? What exactly happens at an AK build party?

Mamluke
12-04-2011, 3:23 PM
see here:

This is my 'Personal' favorite:
http://wwww.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct832.aspx

jeeeez, sold out!

Look here also:

http://whatacountry.com/polish-underfolder-ak-parts-kit.aspx

http://whatacountry.com/parts-kits.aspx

..........

Levetti
12-04-2011, 3:36 PM
In my opinion, which isn't worth much, a saiga conversion is an easy learning experience before trying an AK kit build. J&G had them for $299, but they are backordered right now and I don't know when you'll be able to get one. My Saiga has run flawlessly and I am very satisfied with its reliability and how easy it was to convert. An AK is an AK and the best advice as mentioned is to avoid CASARS and singlestack WASRS, otherwise they all get the job done.

RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 3:45 PM
Just watched that video, whats a good source for AK kits? Is it a difficult build (I can build an AR lower easily,and take down the upper just as easy)? What exactly happens at an AK build party?

AK BUILD it is:

If you're thinking about building, do not expect to save a substantial amount of money. Some builds may cost you more than the price of a complete rifle.

More info: Here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=114)... just keep reading.

Build party: BP101 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=292985)

AK parts kit: Simplified (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=499213) and don't forget our marketplace (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=93)

There are a few people here that can help you in building AKs depending on your location...You'll find build parties and private one on one sessions.


EDIT- Just saw your location Clovis= Greasemonkey (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=27607) BP host

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RustyMacHine
12-04-2011, 3:47 PM
In my opinion, which isn't worth much, a saiga conversion is an easy learning experience before trying an AK kit build. An AK is an AK and the best advice as mentioned is to avoid CASARS and singlestack WASRS, otherwise they all get the job done.

Everyone should experience this.:D


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Levetti
12-04-2011, 4:50 PM
Everyone should experience this.:D


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I'm glad I did and now look forward to a kit build in the future; with the help of a Calguns build party of course :D

SJgunguy24
12-04-2011, 7:53 PM
One thing that will give you a good idea as to the care that went into the build is the rivets.
This is my personal AK74, it's a Russian all matching with the original barrel intact. Notice how the metal around 2 of those rivets is slightly deformed. That means the countersinks(dimpled using a tool not drilled) were done properly and the correct rivets were used during the build. It depends on the kit but attention to detail will let you know if the builder really cares how his product turns out. IMO that's where your money goes when buying from a small manufacturer. Are the rivets domed on the inside like they should be? Does your side folder have the correct fivets flat and domed like a factory build?
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/mybulgy2.jpg

ZX-10R
12-04-2011, 8:10 PM
Yeah that was a great deal if saiga sporters are your thing. A saiga sporter is always gonna be a saiga sporter no matter how many evil features you add to it. As much as we like to think that it's built to the same standards as a battlefield AK, i'm sure its made for a profit not for defending mother Russia.
I'd take a bfpu ak parts kit anyday over a saiga.
But with that saiga yoy can get the 556 and 308 which I have. Oh and my saiga 308 is converted and for trade dor a nice AK parts kit lol

Very true...A parts kit over a Saiga all day long. More desirable. No one came to SLOSA...:cool::43:

The Polish Underfolder from Century is a champ. Steel sight and it grouped well with my left eye and my bad eye at 100yrds. Very accurate out of the box and I did not even clean it and it ran like a champ. Got it a few weeks ago and was just waiting to get shot. I am leaving it stock but with optics would be an excellent shooter. Draco from Century was a champ as well with a TWS and red dot. Accurate to 50yrds but I did not go further. That is a pistol though.

WASRs are easy to get but definitely inspect it thorughly. Both mine shot like studs as usual and grouped extremely weel. 8 shot group at 100yrds was no more than 2.5 inches.

Waffen Works and IA get awesome reviews.

Go join an AK specific site to get more info. AKfiles and AKforum.
If you can inspect the AK before you buy it you increase your chance of getting an awesome rifle.

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 9:00 PM
Z speaks the truth as always.
And i'm building a polish under folder this weekend, but im not using the underfolder im gna go with a fixed wood stock and bfpu.

atsaubrey
12-04-2011, 9:14 PM
One thing that will give you a good idea as to the care that went into the build is the rivets.
This is my personal AK74, it's a Russian all matching with the original barrel intact. Notice how the metal around 2 of those rivets is slightly deformed. That means the countersinks(dimpled using a tool not drilled) were done properly and the correct rivets were used during the build. It depends on the kit but attention to detail will let you know if the builder really cares how his product turns out. IMO that's where your money goes when buying from a small manufacturer. Are the rivets domed on the inside like they should be? Does your side folder have the correct fivets flat and domed like a factory build?
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/mybulgy2.jpg

I'm digging your welds. :) Better dimples next time maybe? :D

SJgunguy24
12-04-2011, 9:20 PM
I'm digging your welds. :) Better dimples next time maybe? :D

NDS 2 receiver with our ATF required markings. This kit is worth too much to use a flat. If I pay more then 200$ for a kit then it goes on a fully heat treated 100% receiver. That kit is Russian with the original barrel. Kits cost too much to not spend the extra for a receiver, especially for what I got a batch for.

zfields
12-04-2011, 9:25 PM
If you can inspect the AK before you buy it you increase your chance of getting an awesome rifle.

There are some nasty kit builts and WASR's out there, I wouldn't buy unless I could either see it, or they have a decent return/repair policy.

Mamluke
12-04-2011, 9:27 PM
NDS 2 receiver with our ATF required markings. This kit is worth too much to use a flat. If I pay more then 200$ for a kit then it goes on a fully heat treated 100% receiver. That kit is Russian with the original barrel. Kits cost too much to not spend the extra for a receiver, especially for what I got a batch for.

That's what I'm talking about, listen to the MAN ....

.......... http://ktmtalk.com/html/emoticons/hail2thechief.gif

Zx-10R, glad the rifle worked out, enjoy!

FourLoko
12-04-2011, 9:28 PM
Why is it that buying an AK is such a mystery? I've been wanting one and I think I have realized the answer. Have at least $800 available and be willing to pay for quality.

Wait, make it two things. The second, buy local so you can look, feel and touch. Talk to the shop and buy from a gun store that sells a lot of AK patterns. This may require a drive.

When I can convince myself to pay up this is how I'm going to do it.

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 9:33 PM
Why is it that buying an AK is such a mystery? I've been wanting one and I think I have realized the answer. Have at least $800 available and be willing to pay for quality.

Wait, make it two things. The second, buy local so you can look, feel and touch. Talk to the shop and buy from a gun store that sells a lot of AK patterns. This may require a drive.

When I can convince myself to pay up this is how I'm going to do it.

Or build one and get true quality

FourLoko
12-04-2011, 9:37 PM
no, no building, too much work

I know you say it over and over but you're like the people that change their own oil. To the rest of us, time is money and we'd rather pay up to avoid the work and have all the fun.

zfields
12-04-2011, 9:38 PM
I would love to see a comparison of some of the more internals of the Saiga to a "military" rifle.
Considering most imported AKs have there FCG swaped to a tapco group, we can just leave that out since a converted saiga will most likely have that also.

Enough hubub and hatin' either way.


paging Sjgunguy

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 9:46 PM
no, no building, too much work

I know you say it over and over but you're like the people that change their own oil. To the rest of us, time is money and we'd rather pay up to avoid the work and have all the fun.

Yes time is money I own 2 companies and I dont even k.ow how to change oil on a car lmao, when I first built an ak if you asked me to grab a 1/8 drill bit I woulda handed you a 1/2in drill bit, if you woulda asked for the fsb I woulda said huh??
But once you build one ohhhhhh boy before you shoot it youve already ordered another kit lol. Only ak i'd rather buy than build is milled ak's and that cause i'm scared of all that welding lol

zfields
12-04-2011, 9:52 PM
Man I wish we had build parties out here.

FourLoko
12-04-2011, 9:55 PM
Yes time is money I own 2 companies and I dont even k.ow how to change oil on a car lmao, when I first built an ak if you asked me to grab a 1/8 drill bit I woulda handed you a 1/2in drill bit, if you woulda asked for the fsb I woulda said huh??
But once you build one ohhhhhh boy before you shoot it youve already ordered another kit lol. Only ak i'd rather buy than build is milled ak's and that cause i'm scared of all that welding lol

Too bad it's illegal to build and "give em away" right? You could go for business number 3 and put your money where your mouth is and start charging to build AKs for people since you're obsessed with how awesome it is.

Take say a 50% deposit for parts then collect the rest when it's finished.

NorCalK9.com
12-04-2011, 10:00 PM
Too bad it's illegal to build and "give em away" right? You could go for business number 3 and put your money where your mouth is and start charging to build AKs for people since you're obsessed with how awesome it is.

Take say a 50% deposit for parts then collect the rest when it's finished.

Yeah that'd be awesome, but considering liability in Ca i'd prob be scared heck I train dogs to bite people and theres 3 pages of liability waivers ea. + I like shooting guns more than selling them, id probably be broke in a year if I built ak's for a living cause i'd wanna keep em all! Lol

RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 8:32 AM
That kit is Russian with the original barrel. Kits cost too much to not spend the extra for a receiver, especially for what I got a batch for.

Are you talking about "I" from VA or "I" as in yourself?

Kick down.:D


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tatt00edangel
12-05-2011, 9:07 AM
It does seem so much more complicated than building an ar, for such a "simple" gun. I will talk to the local shop, probably buy their shop build. ($679 too much?) then buy a NDS receiver and ak kit, then have at it.

RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 9:08 AM
when I first built an ak if you asked me to grab a 1/8 drill bit I woulda handed you a 1/2in drill bit, if you woulda asked for the fsb I woulda said huh??
But once you build one ohhhhhh boy before you shoot it youve already ordered another kit lol. Only ak i'd rather buy than build is milled ak's and that cause i'm scared of all that welding lol

This sounds familiar... This is what happened to me.
Before I even test fired the first build I was researching the second one. Before the second build started I was researching the next... I guess the addiction will keep progressing.


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RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 9:25 AM
It does seem so much more complicated than building an ar, for such a "simple" gun. I will talk to the local shop, probably buy their shop build. ($679 too much?) then buy a NDS receiver and ak kit, then have at it.

IMO-Too much for a WASR with hoity-toity furniture. That will be a $750 WASR OTD.
but you're getting the picture though... Buying a complete rifle,(if you're not put off by it's "simplicity") then buy a kit and receiver to build one.

My friend was put off by the way a WASR looks (parked finish), then he was put off by the way a kit looked (all worn and cut-up), after I built one and dressed it up he wants to build one. What he doesn't understand is the kits usually come like that. Either very used or unissued and cut-up.

(I know he'll be reading this. He's lurking here somewhere ;))


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SJgunguy24
12-05-2011, 9:29 AM
Are you talking about "I" from VA or "I" as in yourself?

Kick down.:D


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As in I bought them myself, I worked a deal and bought enough of them I got em for the same price as you pay for flats. All but the couple I took went to the shop.

NorCalK9.com
12-05-2011, 9:33 AM
This sounds familiar... This is what happened to me.
Before I even test fired the first build I was researching the second one. Before the second build started I was researching the next... I guess the addiction will keep progressing.


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This isn't an addiction, its a sickness!
It doesnt end, even after you build one from ea. Country you then start making specialtiws like ak74underfolders, pistold, etc. my tutor has the nicest ak's ive ever seen and he built every single one, and he's not done... Maybe he'll turn liberal on me one day and give them all to me..... Lol

Akers
12-05-2011, 9:38 AM
What do I do if I am a "Hands on" type of guy? :44:

RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 9:39 AM
This isn't an addiction, its a sickness!
It doesnt end, even after you build one from ea. Country you then start making specialtiws like ak74underfolders, pistold, etc. my tutor has the nicest ak's ive ever seen and he built every single one, and he's not done... Maybe he'll turn liberal on me one day and give them all to me..... Lol

I saw that the last time I was there to build. He gave me a mini quiz, showed me a picture of your last build and asked me what I thought it was... I knew what it was ,but I just couldn't say the country of origin since I've never seen one before.:confused:


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RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 9:44 AM
What do I do if I am a "Hands on" type of guy? :44:

From what your avatar tells me. It seems like you don't like metal shavings, oil, the smell of cosmoline, and heat near you when you're building a gun...:p J/K

Man, building these things aren't as complicated as it sounds.


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NorCalK9.com
12-05-2011, 9:52 AM
I saw that the last time I was there to build. He gave me a mini quiz, showed me a picture of your last build and asked me what I thought it was... I knew what it was ,but I just couldn't say the country of origin since I've never seen one before.:confused:


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Yeah that is a type1 bulgarian underfolding ak74 lol only 2 on the planet estimated value is $294,539,475.08 you wanna buy it lol.

RustyMacHine
12-05-2011, 10:05 AM
Yeah that is a type1 bulgarian underfolding ak74 lol only 2 on the planet estimated value is $294,539,475.08 you wanna buy it lol.

If you give me an 8 discount then I'll take it.


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tatt00edangel
08-08-2012, 3:13 PM
Just an update..I went with a Bulgarian AK47. I'll test shoot it this week and let you know how it goes.

CSACANNONEER
08-08-2012, 3:18 PM
Just an update..I went with a Bulgarian AK47. I'll test shoot it this week and let you know how it goes.

In all reality, I bet you went with a US manufactured firearm built with no more than 10 Bulgarian (main) parts. So, who built it?