PDA

View Full Version : Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.


ap3572001
12-04-2011, 9:11 AM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Why would You buy one?

Why You would not buy one.?

PS. Assuming You have no issues with the price.

nitroxdiver
12-04-2011, 9:19 AM
The only reason I wouldn't buy one is because I already have that niche covered with another quality carbine, DD. If I were in the market for a standard carbine though, it would be at the top of my list.

Gts408
12-04-2011, 9:26 AM
I would not buy one because i like to customize it and cherry pick the parts i want in it. :) but if you like it get it, but you most likely you'll upgrade it later anyways.

louscamaro91
12-04-2011, 9:26 AM
Alot of folks say it's another "AR"..... Well.... It is.
But it does say Colt on it! A CA legal colt is all it took for me.
Drool over mine, I want to be a bad influence on you.
Go buy one today!

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/17ee3dfa.jpg

Striker
12-04-2011, 9:34 AM
The only reason I wouldn't buy one is because I already have that niche covered with another quality carbine, DD. If I were in the market for a standard carbine though, it would be at the top of my list.

This. Honestly, if you want one, I would get it. Prices are great right now. Colt's first run into California in years. Great rifles. Even if you already have a DD, BCM, Noveske or LMT, you could change the configuration of this rifle a bit for some variety. For instance if you have an Aimpoint RDS on the first rifle, you can put an ACOG on this one or SOPMOD stock instead of a CTR. Small things like that.

h0use
12-04-2011, 9:39 AM
i would buy one just cause it says colt m4. i wish they just sold the lower.

glock7
12-04-2011, 9:52 AM
Buy it. I fondled one yesterday. I want it. It's like any other AR, but it's a Colt....

Lone_Gunman
12-04-2011, 9:54 AM
Do they have one with a midlength gas system? If so I may consider one if I was in your position.

Ubermcoupe
12-04-2011, 9:56 AM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Why would You buy one?

Why You would not buy one.?

PS. Assuming You have no issues with the price.

No reason not to buy one, although if you didnít have the $$$ available/over extend yourself to do so, it would not be the smartest thing to do (notice I didnít say ďdonítĒ ;) )

So you should! :D

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 9:57 AM
1).Is this model ONLY made for CA? Or do they sell EXACTLY the same rifle in other states? (W/O A BB?)

2). They say that there are five CA models. What are they ? What are the differences?

Spoilerv2
12-04-2011, 10:00 AM
i would buy one just cause it says colt m4. i wish they just sold the lower.

This.


Don't care for anything else (The don't offer a midlenght). I'd get one complete if they offer a 6520 upper.

m3zona
12-04-2011, 10:07 AM
i would buy one just cause it says colt m4. i wish they just sold the lower.

G&R Tactical now has the stripped and complete M4 lowers available for sale. Ordered one this morning.

putemup
12-04-2011, 10:12 AM
I'm getting one!

451040
12-04-2011, 10:13 AM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Sorry, we don't do that here. :D

Why would You buy one?

To give the finger to the gun hatin' state gov't.

Why You would not buy one.?

I already own an AR pattern Colt.

LovingTheYear1911
12-04-2011, 10:42 AM
If I didn't have an AR, the Colt would be my first choice. So I can't give a reason not to buy. Sorry.

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 11:13 AM
I am already hearing about stripped M4 lowers, complete lowers etc.

Why NOT just buy a complete COLT NIB?

The whole idea of buying parts, uppers m lowers etc. made sense when we did not have plenty of choices of factory rifles.

Now we have COLT. We even have an excellent SIG ARMS M4 and MANY others.

I guess my next question is why would anyone build their own, when they can buy a REALLY good AR complete?

ENVYGREEN
12-04-2011, 11:15 AM
Don't do it

shadow65
12-04-2011, 11:16 AM
If you can afford it, buy it. You will never regret buying a Colt.
Dave N

PandaLuv
12-04-2011, 11:17 AM
Alot of folks say it's another "AR"..... Well.... It is.
But it does say Colt on it! A CA legal colt is all it took for me.
Drool over mine, I want to be a bad influence on you.
Go buy one today!

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/17ee3dfa.jpg

Damn, that is sexy!
Nice acog as well, ARs are growing on me. I like 556 better though over a 223. Don't know why :p

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 11:17 AM
Don't do it

Don't make my own? Or don't buy complete?

cannon
12-04-2011, 11:37 AM
I'm not going to talk you out of anything.

I bought one because my son used one of his Uncle Sam's Colts for two tours in Iraq and and said they never failed him.

It was also nice to have him come over and give me an advanced course on care and feeding.

mrvash
12-04-2011, 11:45 AM
I would get one just for the sole purpose that it says, "Colt M4 Carbine" I wish Colt would sell stripped lowers so then I can pair it with a 14.5 w/pinned and welded FH upper to scratch my itch of an M4 clone.

Press Check
12-04-2011, 12:03 PM
I cannot think of a single reason not to buy a Colt M4. ;)

jonzer77
12-04-2011, 12:07 PM
1).Is this model ONLY made for CA? Or do they sell EXACTLY the same rifle in other states? (W/O A BB?)

2). They say that there are five CA models. What are they ? What are the differences?

There are a few dealers that will sell you the rifle minus the BB and give you standard capacity mags if you live in a free state.

tomd1584
12-04-2011, 12:17 PM
For around $1100, I would never talk you out of one.

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 12:18 PM
There are a few dealers that will sell you the rifle minus the BB and give you standard capacity mags if you live in a free state.

What do You mean? They are ALL made with BB's? Even for other states? Are the M4's made for CA? Or are they just a part of std. COLT rifles?

C4iGrant
12-04-2011, 12:21 PM
i would buy one just cause it says colt m4. i wish they just sold the lower.

We offer them:http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CALWR


C4

mrvash
12-04-2011, 12:24 PM
We offer them:http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CALWR


C4

WORD! I may buy one from you after the holiday season! :)

C4iGrant
12-04-2011, 12:29 PM
1).Is this model ONLY made for CA? Or do they sell EXACTLY the same rifle in other states? (W/O A BB?)

2). They say that there are five CA models. What are they ? What are the differences?

1. They sell the exact same option in other states (less the BB and 9rd mags).

2. 6920CA (traditional M4); 6940CA (Monolithic Rail System); 6920MPCA (Magpul version of the 6920). The last two models are in their Match Target and Accurized series.



C4

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 12:36 PM
1. They sell the exact same option in other states (less the BB and 9rd mags).

2. 6920CA (traditional M4); 6940CA (Monolithic Rail System); 6920MPCA (Magpul version of the 6920). The last two models are in their Match Target and Accurized series.



C4

OH! Match Target?! Like my Delta H-Bar that I had in 80's?!

C4iGrant
12-04-2011, 12:38 PM
OH! Match Target?! Like my Delta H-Bar that I had in 80's?!

Here are what they offer: http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/MatchTarget.aspx



C4

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Here are what they offer: http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtRifles/MatchTarget.aspx



C4

Thank YOU!!!!

gunsarefun
12-04-2011, 1:11 PM
I for one don't get all giggly like a school girl when the name "Colt" comes up.

There are plenty of rifles that are just as well made for less money. You can get a CMMG, Spikes, Stag for right about $1000 out the door from a dealer that is priced right. You are going to be hard pressed to get that Colt 9620ca for less than $1200 once it's in your hands.

If it saying "Colt" on the side of it is worth a couple hundred extra bucks, then by all means, go for it.

GM4spd
12-04-2011, 1:28 PM
If you want a Colt buy it--forget the others that have Spiders,Snakes,
Deer Horns,or Calguns logos :D Pete

ap3572001
12-04-2011, 1:32 PM
I for one don't get all giggly like a school girl when the name "Colt" comes up.

There are plenty of rifles that are just as well made for less money. You can get a CMMG, Spikes, Stag for right about $1000 out the door from a dealer that is priced right. You are going to be hard pressed to get that Colt 9620ca for less than $1200 once it's in your hands.

If it saying "Colt" on the side of it is worth a couple hundred extra bucks, then by all means, go for it.

Yeah. I know what You mean.
At work , when I check out a rifle , its a COLT.
So I guess I just like the fact that I can have one at home:)

SoCalSig1911
12-04-2011, 1:34 PM
I just picked up my first AR, i got a DDM4V1 over the Colt because i don't care for the name much, i also don't like that the name itself is on the Kasler list and it will be hard to convince a LEO that doesn't know any better which model is ok and which one isn't, DD is not on the list at all. Plus i like the look of the DD over the Colt and luckily for me it is also built very well so it is not just aesthetically pleasing. I might spend on an SP901 down the road because i want a 7.62 eventually but for my 5.56 I'm good with the DD.

C4iGrant
12-04-2011, 1:37 PM
I for one don't get all giggly like a school girl when the name "Colt" comes up.

There are plenty of rifles that are just as well made for less money. You can get a CMMG, Spikes, Stag for right about $1000 out the door from a dealer that is priced right. You are going to be hard pressed to get that Colt 9620ca for less than $1200 once it's in your hands.

If it saying "Colt" on the side of it is worth a couple hundred extra bucks, then by all means, go for it.


Sorry, but no. Those brands are no where near a Colt. Or a BCM, DD or Noveske for that matter.




C4

tomd1584
12-04-2011, 1:47 PM
Sorry, but no. Those brands are no where near a Colt. Or a BCM, DD or Noveske for that matter.




C4

The problem Grant, is that people believe they ARE equal. It's crazy how some local shops mark up the price on crappy products, when one can get top-quality parts for equal [and sometimes] less.

C4iGrant
12-04-2011, 1:51 PM
The problem Grant, is that people believe they ARE equal. It's crazy how some local shops mark up the price on crappy products, when one can get top-quality parts for equal [and sometimes] less.

Ya I know. Unfortunately, my fellow gun dealers are typically the worst source for info.



C4

jeep7081
12-04-2011, 1:58 PM
PM in-bound.

fullspeed1
12-04-2011, 2:09 PM
Colt or not, I can care less about a 16" carbine length gas system. I have become a firm believer in mid lengths. Another reason, I am not mounting an m203 anytime soon, So the cutout is pointless. My 2 pennies. Good luck in your decision.

nickvig
12-04-2011, 2:10 PM
Sorry, but no. Those brands are no where near a Colt. Or a BCM, DD or Noveske for that matter.




C4

Grant,

I know nothing of Colt AR rifles. I like Colt handguns and I know their quality. Maybe you can go into a little bit about the differences between the Colt and the other mentioned so we can be a bit more informed. I'm interested to know.

glock7
12-04-2011, 2:13 PM
Today I asked the guy at the gun store/range if they had the 6920ca in stock and he told me they weren't legal in CA. I found the strength to keep my mouth shut....

glock7
12-04-2011, 2:19 PM
Nickvig pm sent to you

submaniac
12-04-2011, 2:33 PM
G&R Tactical now has the stripped and complete M4 lowers available for sale. Ordered one this morning.

I looked at their website (also saw them on gunbroker), the ones I saw are marked "sporter" which makes it banned by name.

m3zona
12-04-2011, 2:51 PM
I looked at their website (also saw them on gunbroker), the ones I saw are marked "sporter" which makes it banned by name.

They have the California lowers listed separately.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CALWR&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower% 20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D18%26template%3DP DGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html

NoHeavyHitter
12-04-2011, 3:01 PM
Why You would not buy one.?

My reasons are purely political as it's my perception that Colt did absolutely nothing to support CA gun owners in the wake of the AW bans. Colt didn't seem to care or offer CA-legal versions of the AR-15 until just recently since with the wars winding down. They seem to be eying civilian purchasers with renewed interest since their government sales are probably going to fall off.

Given that there are alternatives of equal quality readily available, I have no need to give Colt my business..

mrvash
12-04-2011, 3:19 PM
Sorry, but no. Those brands are no where near a Colt. Or a BCM, DD or Noveske for that matter.

C4

Grant,

I know nothing of Colt AR rifles. I like Colt handguns and I know their quality. Maybe you can go into a little bit about the differences between the Colt and the other mentioned so we can be a bit more informed. I'm interested to know.

I know DD and BCM have done torture tests on their products to ensure reliability, durability and quality and Colt has a very long track record for use in service.

But I am too wondering the same thing Nick is wondering.

ZombieTactics
12-04-2011, 3:21 PM
Why would You buy one?
Because that's all I could afford at the time.

Why You would not buy one.?
Because I got a smokin' deal on two.

Oh, wait ... you meant ...

Dhena81
12-04-2011, 3:40 PM
My reasons are purely political as it's my perception that Colt did absolutely nothing to support CA gun owners in the wake of the AW bans. Colt didn't seem to care or offer CA-legal versions of the AR-15 until just recently since with the wars winding down. They seem to be eying civilian purchasers with renewed interest since their government sales are probably going to fall off.

Given that there are alternatives of equal quality readily available, I have no need to give Colt my business..

If you want to blame anyone blame the CA legislatures and idiots that vote them in blame all the re districting in your cities to ensure only one type of people get representation. I've never called Colt and had them hang up on me or be rude they obviously already submit handguns to the CA roster.


Explain what some of the other companies that were and are being sold as OL rifles did to support CA gun owners other than not having to worry about being on a stupid list. Certain KAC rails are on the CA AW list and its just a rail it must be hard to sift through all the BS CA has to offer. It's not like all the CEO's got together and said hey why don't we make our rifles illegal in CA.

Instead of asking what has Colt done for us lately give thanks to all the hard work people have done here and what other gun organizations have done to restore and clarify our rights as Californians and Americans.

MrPlink
12-04-2011, 3:59 PM
I would get one just for the sole purpose that it says, "Colt M4 Carbine" I wish Colt would sell stripped lowers so then I can pair it with a 14.5 w/pinned and welded FH upper to scratch my itch of an M4 clone.

this

GM4spd
12-04-2011, 4:04 PM
Colt is in the firearms business,they are not into political activism---why
should they spend their money trying to influence nut job politicians
here in Ca? If you don't want to buy their product---fine-- but don't blame
them for the politics of this state.The fact that they are marketing a
product here is good news for ALL gun owners. Pete

alfred1222
12-04-2011, 4:23 PM
For around $1100, I would never talk you out of one.

++1

aklover_91
12-04-2011, 5:09 PM
Who in the bay area has colts in stock? Might have some dough coming in and wouldn't mind an SP6920

SIGSHOOTR
12-04-2011, 9:53 PM
I would get one for sentimental reasons- and that's about the only reason. It was the gun I had at boot; it was the gun I carried in one shape or form for 6 years and got me home safely. It's a perfectly fine weapon system. BUT, I was in Riflegear the other day and got to handle one and I was reminded why I love the fact that, now, as a civvie-- I can choose to buy and shoot something so much better in terms of fit, finish, workmanship and parts/accessories that come with the gun. The irritating play between the upper and lower receivers of the Colt alone would steer me away from buying one. Yeah, Colt may have invented the M4 and lay claim to the name (if that's important to you)-- but IMO, other companies like DD, Noveske, LMT and BCM perfected it.

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 3:17 AM
^^^^ +1

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 7:59 AM
Grant,

I know nothing of Colt AR rifles. I like Colt handguns and I know their quality. Maybe you can go into a little bit about the differences between the Colt and the other mentioned so we can be a bit more informed. I'm interested to know.

Sure. Colt holds the GOVT TDP (Technical Data Package) for how to build a fighting gun. In this pacakge, every single detail is spelled out right down to the thickness of the chrome on the inside of the barrel and bolt carrier.

So Colt has clear guidelines to follow (no matter the cost of doing so). At no time, can they deviate from this document.

When other companies build AR's, they follow their own standards. Sometimes this works out well, but it also can means that the company cuts every corner possible in order save money.




C4

gunsarefun
12-05-2011, 8:32 AM
Sorry, but no. Those brands are no where near a Colt. Or a BCM, DD or Noveske for that matter.




C4

Well, I for one completely disagree with that statement.

Noveske doesn't really even need to be mentioned, sure nice guns, but priced way too high to be part of this discussion.

I'm putting it on you to explain to me why Colt, BCM, or DD is any better in quality components than CMMG or Spikes.:D

MilitaryArms
12-05-2011, 8:34 AM
Why would I want to talk you out of it? :D

eBj0tesg3SY

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 8:54 AM
Well, I for one completely disagree with that statement.

Noveske doesn't really even need to be mentioned, sure nice guns, but priced way too high to be part of this discussion.

I'm putting it on you to explain to me why Colt, BCM, or DD is any better in quality components than CMMG or Spikes.:D

Can do. I will specifically talk about Colt VS CMMG and you can apply the knowledge against other brands as you wish.

Colt follows a set standard in regards to quality of parts and how the weapon is assembled. This set standard is called the TDP and only Colt and FNH have the official document.

Other companies (such as CMMG), do not have this document and DO NOT follow what is spelled out. These companies (RRA, DPMS, CMMG, Oly, etc) are really about getting the gun out the door a cheaply as they possibly can. This means that they are using parts that do not even meet the entry level standards for the US Govt.

So if we think of the TDP as the lowest quality standard that a fighting gun can be built to (and still get the job done), what does that say about companies that cannot live up to what the TDP calls for????




C4

ap3572001
12-05-2011, 9:56 AM
Why would I want to talk you out of it? :D

eBj0tesg3SY

Compare 6920 to the Basic LMT Patrol 16?
Thank You.

ap3572001
12-05-2011, 12:05 PM
Looking at both COLT and LMT

evidens83
12-05-2011, 12:06 PM
LMT, DD, NOVESKE >Colt....IMHO ;)

ZombieTactics
12-05-2011, 1:18 PM
I think I might put a Adcor BEAR upper on a Colt lower (or is it the other way around?), just because I like everything to come from the same factory ... ;)

civilsnake
12-05-2011, 1:59 PM
One question:

Does Colt follow the TDP specs for their civilian/LE rifles?

NoHeavyHitter
12-05-2011, 2:17 PM
If you want to blame anyone blame the CA legislatures and idiots that vote them in blame all the re districting in your cities to ensure only one type of people get representation. I've never called Colt and had them hang up on me or be rude they obviously already submit handguns to the CA roster.


Explain what some of the other companies that were and are being sold as OL rifles did to support CA gun owners other than not having to worry about being on a stupid list. Certain KAC rails are on the CA AW list and its just a rail it must be hard to sift through all the BS CA has to offer. It's not like all the CEO's got together and said hey why don't we make our rifles illegal in CA.

Instead of asking what has Colt done for us lately give thanks to all the hard work people have done here and what other gun organizations have done to restore and clarify our rights as Californians and Americans.

My answer (to why I won't buy from Colt) was intended for the OP...

I owe NO ONE any explanation for my feelings. My thoughts stand whether you agree or not.

Droppin Deuces
12-05-2011, 2:27 PM
Alot of folks say it's another "AR"..... Well.... It is.
But it does say Colt on it! A CA legal colt is all it took for me.
Drool over mine, I want to be a bad influence on you.
Go buy one today!

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/17ee3dfa.jpg

The only thing I can't deal with on these Colts(or any other carbine) is that damn 16" barrel. I used to be fine with it on a carbine, but having gone that route in the past and finally switching to a 14.5" pinned, I will never buy a 16" barreled carbine again.

14.5" forever!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b56/doghair/IMG_2989.jpg

OP, buy a Colt if the name really matters to you, but the TRUTH is that for the vast majority of people, the Stag or comparable guns are way more than adequate.

RECCE556
12-05-2011, 3:43 PM
There are plenty of rifles that are just as well made for less money. You can get a CMMG, Spikes, Stag for right about $1000 out the door from a dealer that is priced right.
Sorry, but that's a lot of false information right there. As someone who had to handle a lot of these "commercial" brands, I can assure you that the quality of said brands are NOT "just as well made". Not even close.

FeuerFrei
12-05-2011, 3:57 PM
I have read that the TDP for the M4 is Colt's and the TDP for M16 series belongs to FN.
Rumor has it that Bushmaster was given the M4 TDP by the army for 1 contract run and then that was that. Giving out TDP specs is/was verboten. Oops!
So if we cannot verify the TDP contents and cannot compare it ourselves we have to take somebody's word for it. Colt's ownership of the TDP is now a great sales tool. Right?
I think that if you are a collector and want a non-military M4gery that is as close to "mil-spec" as possible then buy the Colt.
Buy it? Yeah why not.

Brick562
12-05-2011, 4:09 PM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Why would You buy one?

Why You would not buy one.?

PS. Assuming You have no issues with the price.

I am not seeing any loyalty to the AR platform in ypur post. To th OP, if money is not an issue, why not go SCAR? Performance and reliability in a military grade package.

Just trying to talk ya out and up. Good luck on your purchase.

Agent Tikki
12-05-2011, 4:27 PM
One question:

Does Colt follow the TDP specs for their civilian/LE rifles?

This is an interesting question. I can't follow everything because, the lower reciever and the fire control group must be semi auto. But maybe for everything else?

gunsarefun
12-05-2011, 5:04 PM
Can do. I will specifically talk about Colt VS CMMG and you can apply the knowledge against other brands as you wish.

Colt follows a set standard in regards to quality of parts and how the weapon is assembled. This set standard is called the TDP and only Colt and FNH have the official document.

Other companies (such as CMMG), do not have this document and DO NOT follow what is spelled out. These companies (RRA, DPMS, CMMG, Oly, etc) are really about getting the gun out the door a cheaply as they possibly can. This means that they are using parts that do not even meet the entry level standards for the US Govt.

So if we think of the TDP as the lowest quality standard that a fighting gun can be built to (and still get the job done), what does that say about companies that cannot live up to what the TDP calls for????




C4

Interesting.....

And what exactly are these details in the TDP that differentiate the way Colt produces, and assembles it's parts vs. other brands without a military contract? If CMMG and others don't even know the details of this TDP, who's to say they aren't exceeding it's specs, after all? Without more details, I'm not buying into it.

As far as parts go, not just Colt are building milspec parts. Like CMMG, many others are building their equipment to military specifications. Or, are you saying that due to this "TDP" everyone else is not building milspec? That actually milspec is a secret only known by Colt or FN?:confused:

As far as assembly, I have a hard time understanding what the people on the assembly lines are doing different that others aren't. Either you know how to assemble an AR15/M4/M16 to all the proper torque specs and procedures or you don't.

gunsarefun
12-05-2011, 5:09 PM
Sorry, but that's a lot of false information right there. As someone who had to handle a lot of these "commercial" brands, I can assure you that the quality of said brands are NOT "just as well made". Not even close.
Tell me why.;)

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 5:33 PM
One question:

Does Colt follow the TDP specs for their civilian/LE rifles?

Yes.



C4

Droppin Deuces
12-05-2011, 5:48 PM
Interesting.....

And what exactly are these details in the TDP that differentiate the way Colt produces, and assembles it's parts vs. other brands without a military contract? If CMMG and others don't even know the details of this TDP, who's to say they aren't exceeding it's specs, after all? Without more details, I'm not buying into it.

As far as parts go, not just Colt are building milspec parts. Like CMMG, many others are building their equipment to military specifications. So, if your saying that due to this "TDP" everyone else is not building milspec? That actually milspec is a secret only known by Colt or FN?:confused:

As far as assembly, I have a hard time understanding what the people on the assembly lines are doing different that others aren't. Either you know how to assemble an AR15/M4/M16 to all the proper torque specs and procedures or you don't.

Seems to me that until someone can state what standards the TDP consists of, it's little more than an arbitrary sales pitch. I guess that's good enough for some people.

stix213
12-05-2011, 5:48 PM
If I were to pick one up, this would be one I actually left stock. Though I haven't hardly put any rounds yet through the last AR I built a couple months ago, so I should probably hold off.

submaniac
12-05-2011, 5:49 PM
They have the California lowers listed separately.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CALWR&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3Dlower% 20not%20follower%26searchstart%3D18%26template%3DP DGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html

Thanks for clearing that up. My opinion is that at $550 just for a lower, might as well spend the additional dough and get the full rifle.

I have read that the TDP for the M4 is Colt's and the TDP for M16 series belongs to FN.
Rumor has it that Bushmaster was given the M4 TDP by the army for 1 contract run and then that was that. Giving out TDP specs is/was verboten. Oops!
So if we cannot verify the TDP contents and cannot compare it ourselves we have to take somebody's word for it. Colt's ownership of the TDP is now a great sales tool. Right?
I think that if you are a collector and want a non-military M4gery that is as close to "mil-spec" as possible then buy the Colt.
Buy it? Yeah why not.

well this is the story I read about the TDP:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Colt-M4-Data-Rights-The-Individual-Carbine-Competition-06942/

Like Colt and the army had a licensing agreement since 1967 when the M-16 was first adopted. And then it was breached by someone sending the TDP to 21 vendors for accessories. Afterwards, a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) was sent out to the vendors who accidentally recieved the TDP. One of the vendors was FN, who refused to sign the NDA. Fn then subsequently made an unsolicited sales offer to supply rifles. Then Colt threatened to sue the army for $40 million for breaching the original agreement made in 1967. In 1997 Colt and the army "settled" whereby Colt would make the M4 for a limited time afterwards (the "M4 addendum") ensuring it would be the sole source of M4's.

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 5:55 PM
Interesting.....

And what exactly are these details in the TDP that differentiate the way Colt produces, and assembles it's parts vs. other brands without a military contract? If CMMG and others don't even know the details of this TDP, who's to say they aren't exceeding it's specs, after all? Without more details, I'm not buying into it.

We (and CMMG) DO KNOW that the TDP calls out certain things (like barrel steel, HPT and MPI for instance). They fail to meet these specs. So if you cannot meet them, there is no way to go above them.

To make it simpler for you, if you are using cheaper steel and not testing your components, then you are not meeting the entry level standard for a fighting gun.

As far as parts go, not just Colt are building milspec parts. Like CMMG, many others are building their equipment to military specifications. So, if your saying that due to this "TDP" everyone else is not building milspec? That actually milspec is a secret only known by Colt or FN?:confused:

Interesting. So if they do not have the TDP, how would they know what the spec calls for?

I will throw you a bone though (as you are drowning here). There are boot leg or black market copies of the TDP floating around. You also have to remember that the MAJORITY of AR manufacturers don't actually make a SINGLE PART. So that means that they purchase them from someone else.

Having purchased parts from some of these companies, I can tell you that they don't all make the same quality of parts AND will commonly have different levels of quality.

As far as assembly, I have a hard time understanding what the people on the assembly lines are doing different that others aren't. Either you know how to assemble an AR15/M4/M16 to all the proper torque specs and procedures or you don't.


Again, this comes back to the TDP. Not all companies know what is correct and what isn't. Since they have no inspections or Govt contracts to worry about, they just don't pay a lot of attention to it.

As an example, here is a thread I wrote about BM:http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532&highlight=day+life



C4

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 6:04 PM
Seems to me that until someone can state what standards the TDP consists of, it's little more than an arbitrary sales pitch. I guess that's good enough for some people.

Why do you have so much hate for colt?

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 6:08 PM
Seems to me that until someone can state what standards the TDP consists of, it's little more than an arbitrary sales pitch. I guess that's good enough for some people.


Well, since you would have to have a need to know and sign an NDA, I don't think YOU will ever see the document.

I luckily have friends at both Colt and FNH and get glimpses into what is called out. I used this info to produce a thread so that consumer could make more informed decisions. It is here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063

I also did a thread about whether there was something better than what the TDP calls out. It is located here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88634

Not to sound rude, but if you think all AR's are created just because the manufacturer tells you that they are, then I have some ocean front property to sell you in Ohio. ;)

Droppin Deuces
12-05-2011, 6:11 PM
Why do you have so much hate for colt?

I don't hate Colt. I just have questions. Why does it bother you that I have questions about Colt?

Droppin Deuces
12-05-2011, 6:15 PM
Well, since you would have to have a need to know and sign an NDA, I don't think YOU will ever see the document.

I luckily have friends at both Colt and FNH and get glimpses into what is called out. I used this info to produce a thread so that consumer could make more informed decisions. It is here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063

I also did a thread about whether there was something better than what the TDP calls out. It is located here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=88634&highlight=day+life

Not to sound rude, but if you think all AR's are created just because the manufacturer tells you that they are, then I have some ocean front property to sell you in Ohio. ;)

It seems I DO have a need to know since you keep pulling the TDP card, but can't seem to tell us anything about it. You might also want to point out where I said all AR's are created equal. Pretty sure I've never said anything to that effect.

C4iGrant
12-05-2011, 6:22 PM
It seems I DO have a need to know since you keep pulling the TDP card, but can't seem to tell us anything about it. You might also want to point out where I said all AR's are created equal. Pretty sure I've never said anything to that effect.

Need to know means that you have a .Mil contract with the US Govt and they think you need the TDP in order to make something they need.

I have given tons of links and info on the subject, but you either don't read it or are CHOOSING to be ignorant on the subject.

It really isn't that hard. FNH and Colt hold the keys to the document on how to build a fighting gun. You either accept that fact or you do not.

If you believe that there are AR's superior to what Colt produces, then that means that you believe that that most AR's are equal and the Colt name is noting more than a "marketing" gimmick.



C4

glock7
12-05-2011, 7:50 PM
I got to handle one on Saturday. I looked it over from top to bottom and if I were interested in fit and finish, I'd say everything fit together lIke a glove and lOoked great. To me it's a fighting carbine I don't care how it looks as long as its a shooter and very dependable. If its good enough for our troops then hey....I'm gonna get one, that being said I dont have safe queens, they all get shot and run hard. What brands do I have? BCM and DD. gee, they're on the TDP. If I'm gonna spend my hard earned $, get the best MY $ will buy...your best and my best may vary.

gunsarefun
12-05-2011, 8:46 PM
We (and CMMG) DO KNOW that the TDP calls out certain things (like barrel steel, HPT and MPI for instance). They fail to meet these specs. So if you cannot meet them, there is no way to go above them.

To make it simpler for you, if you are using cheaper steel and not testing your components, then you are not meeting the entry level standard for a fighting gun.



Interesting. So if they do not have the TDP, how would they know what the spec calls for?

I will throw you a bone though (as you are drowning here). There are boot leg or black market copies of the TDP floating around. You also have to remember that the MAJORITY of AR manufacturers don't actually make a SINGLE PART. So that means that they purchase them from someone else.

Having purchased parts from some of these companies, I can tell you that they don't all make the same quality of parts AND will commonly have different levels of quality.




Again, this comes back to the TDP. Not all companies know what is correct and what isn't. Since they have no inspections or Govt contracts to worry about, they just don't pay a lot of attention to it.

As an example, here is a thread I wrote about BM:http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532&highlight=day+life



C4

I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons? It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 9:01 PM
I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons? It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

CMMG is not even in the same category......there is a reason they sell for $800.

tomd1584
12-05-2011, 9:05 PM
I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons? It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

When MFG's list the specs of their product, there's really no need to call them and ask ;).

Some use lower grade steel, don't chrome line the barrels, don't HPT/MPI every single barrel/bolt, etc.

This is why they offer at a lower price point.

cannon
12-05-2011, 9:30 PM
I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons? It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

In the civilian world most if not all of the companies make a fine servicible weapon for us plinkers and shooters and target shooters. We'll probably shoot those rifles for years with little or no problems. Heck even Plum Crazy lowers are reliable.

Many of those same guns though would not stand up to the hard use, full auto fire and high round counts of the militaries guns. I think that's all that is being said.

CK_32
12-05-2011, 9:31 PM
It's a colt..

cannon
12-05-2011, 9:32 PM
I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons? It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

In the civilian world most if not all of the companies make a fine serviceable weapon for us plinkers and shooters and target shooters. We'll probably shoot those rifles for years with little or no problems. Heck even Plum Crazy lowers are reliable.

Many of those same guns though would not stand up to the hard use, full auto fire and high round counts of the militaries guns. I think that's all that is being said.

The different makers make ARs for different uses and markets.

ap3572001
12-05-2011, 9:42 PM
Ok! Will get a Colt.:) where is a good place to get it? My FFL only charges 35.00 if its shipped to Him. What should I be looking at total?

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 9:49 PM
BCM, The cure for the common Colt.;)

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 9:49 PM
^^^Bingo

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 9:51 PM
There, Talked you out of it.

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 9:57 PM
BCM, The cure for the common Colt.;)

Nothing common about a Colt :)

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Read http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 10:11 PM
Read http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers

BCM makes good stuff but I don't see anything in there that makes them better. I think DD, BCM, and Colt are all in the same class. Until now you had to have a RAW to own a Colt in California.

Cali-Shooter
12-05-2011, 10:13 PM
Don't get a COLT "M4."

Get a 20'' barrel AR rifle instead. :D

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 10:25 PM
Actually, My personal preference for a Mid Length gas system and a heavy barrel without a useless M203 cut out for a grenade launcher that I will never have, Makes it better. Once again, BCM is the cure for the common Colt.:)

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 10:28 PM
I already ordered one of these to swap out the 16" Carbine length barrel

http://www.pkfirearms.com/Colt_Barrels/101/c

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 10:37 PM
Jeff, Not sure what your reasoning for a barrel swap out is for.

jonzer77
12-05-2011, 10:42 PM
http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system

fullspeed1
12-05-2011, 10:51 PM
That sucks, Hopefully you can sell your 16" barrel to recoup the cost.

SIGSHOOTR
12-06-2011, 1:16 AM
Well-- I'm glad people are interested in carbine guns again! LOL. I was ready to pull the trigger on one of these Colts (just to have for sentimental reasons)-- but, since I already have a 16" DD carbine (5,600 trouble free rounds in 6 months and counting) I think I'll get a 14.5" BCM middy upper and interchange with my DD lower. This thread has been an interesting read. Good luck OP. You can't go wrong with the Colt-- it's a fine gun. I think anyone who had to carry one in harm's way can attest to that--even back to the old CAR-15 (which I started out on. Yep, I'm an old fart). But IMHO, there are other great guns out there that are just as good (and better) that you should consider.

RECCE556
12-06-2011, 1:21 AM
Grant, some people just don't get it. There is plenty of information out there and some people choose to ignore it and THINK they know better.

Listen up folks, just buy your CMMG, shoot your 500 rounds per year, slow fire at a square range with your 10 round magazines and bullet buttons and then stick it back in the safe and thumb your nose at the people who shoot over 10K rounds per year in dynamic shooting courses and actually beat the snot out of their "overpriced" carbines. :rolleyes:

maxwellca21
12-06-2011, 1:25 AM
i would def get it if i didnt have my stag model 1 already. hope you will get it OP. cant go wrong with Colt

Colt-45
12-06-2011, 1:35 AM
Why buy a Colt M4 when there's LWRC, Noveske, LMT, BCM?

The turn off with the Colt for me was the nanny lower. None of the above mentioned AR's have those lowers. It's not a law to block that portion of the lower so why do it? reminds me of how some auto manufacturers used to limit their car's to a certain speed even though the speedometer could measure all the way to 140-160mph. Sure some might say it should be the least of our worries, especially since we live in CA BUT who knows, things could change or some of us could end up moving away from this state.

With that said, nothing wrong with Colt I just hate their lower receiver, not the pony, the pony is always beautiful, I hate how they didn't finish off the inside of the lower.

I already ordered one of these to swap out the 16" Carbine length barrel

http://www.pkfirearms.com/Colt_Barrels/101/c

Gee, thanks alot.:mad: Thanks to your link my wallet just lost $325 bucks:D.

I was searching for one of those barrels, was gonna settle for a BCM Socom but they were out of stock and knowing how fast AR components fly off the shelves over at BCM I didn't know when I would have a chance to pick one up. My original intent was a Colt Socom barrel but the guys that have them want to sell them for outrageous prices like they're diamonds or something.

Thanks for the link :)

Order has been placed :shifty:

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 6:51 AM
I'm drowning.... really.....

Have you contacted every company to find out just exactly how they produce their weapons?

Pretty close. I can read the specs that the companies list on their website about their weapons. Some companies I have actually talked to (phone, Shot Show, e-mail, etc). Then, we have the Rob_S "Chart" where he sent out questionnaires to just about everyone that makes an AR. In this document, the core specs of the TDP were listed and the manufacturers were asked to check yes or no.

It's simple, if you do not know the details on this "secret" TDP list, how can you even make an assumption if a certain maker fell short, or OVERbuilt their product in accordance to this list?

Actually I do know the majority of them. Ask me a question and I will do my best to answer it.;)

You did FINALLY list a few things that you think is on this list, again, have you called every manufacturer and asked them if they've done these things? I doubt it.

In the civilian world there are many brands that have proven to be high quality with zero problems, and they haven't been just Colts. All in all, I understand, you want to sell the product you carry. I can't blame you.

r

Think I know? Know, I actually do know them.

How were these other brands proven? What .Mil testing did they participate in? Can you list the test data?

We are a DD, BCM, S&W LE, Noveske and Colt Distributor. My personal weapon utilizes parts from DD, BCM, Noveske and Colt. So I like them all.




C4

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 6:53 AM
Grant, some people just don't get it. There is plenty of information out there and some people choose to ignore it and THINK they know better.

Listen up folks, just buy your CMMG, shoot your 500 rounds per year, slow fire at a square range with your 10 round magazines and bullet buttons and then stick it back in the safe and thumb your nose at the people who shoot over 10K rounds per year in dynamic shooting courses and actually beat the snot out of their "overpriced" carbines. :rolleyes:

Ya I know. This is a good forum, but when I see ignorance, I cannot help but to TRY and correct it.

In the end, I can only lead the horse to water. I cannot make it drink.



C4

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 6:54 AM
Ok! Will get a Colt.:) where is a good place to get it? My FFL only charges 35.00 if its shipped to Him. What should I be looking at total?

We offer them for $1010.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CA



C4

fullspeed1
12-06-2011, 7:02 AM
Would Colt consider a barrel change and alteration and immediately void it's warranty?

ap3572001
12-06-2011, 8:08 AM
Grant, some people just don't get it. There is plenty of information out there and some people choose to ignore it and THINK they know better.

Listen up folks, just buy your CMMG, shoot your 500 rounds per year, slow fire at a square range with your 10 round magazines and bullet buttons and then stick it back in the safe and thumb your nose at the people who shoot over 10K rounds per year in dynamic shooting courses and actually beat the snot out of their "overpriced" carbines. :rolleyes:

You are right 100% .+1!

I have been saying this for a long time about handguns.
People who CARRY a loaded handgun all the time and respond to bad situations,serve warrants etc, have TOTALLY different requirements.
Cool factors,recent magazine articles, popularity , political climate, means NOTHING to them.

I am one of those people.

fullspeed1
12-06-2011, 8:46 AM
We offer them for $1010.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CA



C4

Plus, $325 for a pinned 14.5 barrel, That apparently seems to improve the performance of the carbine length system. Grant, In your opinion....Is this mod necessary, And does it void the warranty from Colt?

fullspeed1
12-06-2011, 8:47 AM
You are right 100% .+1!

I have been saying this for a long time about handguns.
People who CARRY a loaded handgun all the time and respond to bad situations,serve warrants etc, have TOTALLY different requirements.
Cool factors,recent magazine articles, popularity , political climate, means NOTHING to them.

I am one of those people.

I love Glock's also;)

kungfumanwayne
12-06-2011, 8:50 AM
Don't buy the pony. He is too over priced. Get a Daniel or a Lewis or a Bravo instead. You get more gun for the money...

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 8:59 AM
Plus, $325 for a pinned 14.5 barrel, That apparently seems to improve the performance of the carbine length system. Grant, In your opinion....Is this mod necessary, And does it void the warranty from Colt?

No and it would void your warranty.




C4

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 9:00 AM
Don't buy the pony. He is too over priced. Get a Daniel or a Lewis or a Bravo instead. You get more gun for the money...

Really? As a DD and BCM Distributor, how is the Colt 6920CA for $1010 over priced?


C4

cannon
12-06-2011, 9:10 AM
Really? As a DD and BCM Distributor, how is the Colt 6920CA for $1010 over priced?


C4

What are the prices of DD and BCM in similar configuration?

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 9:15 AM
What are the prices of DD and BCM in similar configuration?

I have to list MAP prices as this is an open forum.

DD M4 V1 $1429.
BCM M4 MOD 0 $1025.


Knowing what my DISTRIBUTOR price is on these guns, I would never be able to sell either one of them for $1010 with a BB installed.




C4

INDABZ
12-06-2011, 9:20 AM
Always buy a COLT if you can.....

No matter what.....always worth more money....any day....any time

Plus they are what all the others want to be......great rifles.

Striker
12-06-2011, 9:26 AM
You are right 100% .+1!

I have been saying this for a long time about handguns.
People who CARRY a loaded handgun all the time and respond to bad situations,serve warrants etc, have TOTALLY different requirements.
Cool factors,recent magazine articles, popularity , political climate, means NOTHING to them.

I am one of those people.

Yeah, I once read where Frogman (at the time, an active duty SEAL, might still be) wrote on a different forum about why SEALs still used the P226. I think someone asked him why they don't switch to something different. In short, he wrote because they're durable, accurate and work really well for what they use them for. He also mentioned the MP5 and said both guns have done well for their role on the teams and they weren't really interested in changing something that worked that well for them. The post is on the internet, if anyone wants to find it.

My opinion is get the Colt or get a Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, BCM or I would say KAC, but they're difficult to get here in California.

I'll say this. I've been a member of M4Carbine for awhile now and I can tell you that Grant knows his stuff. You can debate with him if you would like, but his information is always solid. If you're really into the M4 type rifle, join M4carbine.net. Yeah, I know, it's not a place where people will hold your hand. If fact, it can be a somewhat hostile place sometimes, but there's a lot of great information on there.

Finally, for those of you debating with Grant and his experience, please also keep in mind that the SMEs that post their preferences, choose Colt, HK, Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, Noveske or KAC. There's a reason for this.

If you chose or choose one of the other brands and you like it. Enjoy. Personally, I don't mind a little extra advice and knowledge from someone who might have a little more experience than I do.

cannon
12-06-2011, 9:48 AM
I have to list MAP prices as this is an open forum.

DD M4 V1 $1429.
BCM M4 MOD 0 $1025.


Knowing what my DISTRIBUTOR price is on these guns, I would never be able to sell either one of them for $1010 with a BB installed.




C4

So assuming all three are of comparable quality. The Colt is the best deal or for $15 more you can get the BCM is that is what you prefer.

I really doubt there is enough difference in quality or reliability among these three to make a difference. I could be wrong though as I'm no expert. :)

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 10:10 AM
So assuming all three are of comparable quality. The Colt is the best deal or for $15 more you can get the BCM is that is what you prefer.

I really doubt there is enough difference in quality or reliability among these three to make a difference. I could be wrong though as I'm no expert. :)

Paul (owner of BCM) once posted on M4C that he is flattered that anyone would think that BCM and Colt were equals.


C4

glock7
12-06-2011, 10:15 AM
+1 for striker. I too am a member and I've learned a lot about the ar platform that I love so much. Yes, they are harsh. I lurk there more than I post. But their search engine function is top notch and you can learn a lot about the ar platform. There is some bickering and useless stuff but the good thing is if you sort through it you can glean some great information. And if you decide to go there read the rules and use the search button. Good stuff.

cannon
12-06-2011, 10:34 AM
Paul (owner of BCM) once posted on M4C that he is flattered that anyone would think that BCM and Colt were equals.


C4

:rofl2:

Well that didn't take long to prove I'm no expert. At least I was smacked down by Paul.

Grant,

In your opinion. Do you think there is a noticable difference in quality and reliability among these three particular guns for civilian use?

I know you are involved with all three in a business relationship so if it is unwise of you to answer. I understand.

C4iGrant
12-06-2011, 10:48 AM
:rofl2:

Well that didn't take long to prove I'm no expert. At least I was smacked down by Paul.

Grant,

In your opinion. Do you think there is a noticable difference in quality and reliability among these three particular guns for civilian use?

I know you are involved with all three in a business relationship so if it is unwise of you to answer. I understand.

I like all three. I was DD's second Distributor in the US and am BCM's FIRST Distributor. So I have been with these companies since day one and to say that I am a big fan is an understatement.

The consumer would be wise to buy a weapon from any of these companies.


C4

fullspeed1
12-06-2011, 11:11 AM
I already ordered one of these to swap out the 16" Carbine length barrel

http://www.pkfirearms.com/Colt_Barrels/101/c


Yup, Sounds like an awesome idea;)

jonzer77
12-06-2011, 11:28 AM
Yup, Sounds like an awesome idea;)

I am glad that you agree.

docsmileyface
12-06-2011, 11:37 AM
save your money... for a Colt SP901

cannon
12-06-2011, 11:53 AM
Ok! Will get a Colt.:) where is a good place to get it? My FFL only charges 35.00 if its shipped to Him. What should I be looking at total?

Good decision! Post pics when you get it.

ArkinDomino
12-06-2011, 12:35 PM
I want one just to have it. Same reason I would have more than one rifle. I like ARs.

fullspeed1
12-06-2011, 1:08 PM
I am glad that you agree.

I'll agree to anything as long as it isn't my money being wasted. I'll put faith into Grant's advice, But I stay away from Carbine gas systems anyways.:D

Arnelcheeze
12-06-2011, 5:23 PM
I want one

vta
12-06-2011, 5:30 PM
no. i will do not such thing as talking someone out of buying a gun.

pacifico23
12-06-2011, 6:44 PM
+1 for m4carbine.net. That member IraqiGunz on that site is probabably the most knowledgable AR guru I have ever seen. That man knows his AR/M-16 rifles.

SIGSHOOTR
12-06-2011, 10:35 PM
FWIW, LAV's take: 16" carbine length gun made by either DD, Colt or BCM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mKD-CmX4zQ

I know some are put off by LAV-- but I have the utmost respect for the man's achievements, knowledge and experience. Met him at a course, and the man commands respect. Lastly, funny how guys like LAV and Ken Hackathorn stayed with a carbine length gas system as everyone else jumped on the mid-length bandwagon. I never saw a problem with the carbine system in the first place-- always worked fine for for me.

Code7inOaktown
12-06-2011, 10:50 PM
save your money... for a Colt SP901

Or buy both...

carnelianbay
12-06-2011, 11:10 PM
We offer them:http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CALWR


C4

Did I read that right, 9rd Mags? What am I missing? :oji:

ScottsBad
12-07-2011, 12:12 AM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Why would You buy one?

Why You would not buy one.?

PS. Assuming You have no issues with the price.

Don't buy a Colt. There are better rifles. There, are you talked out of it.

loosewreck
12-07-2011, 12:21 AM
I don't get it. This is like asking to be talked out of a Colt 1911, Python or SA Army.

Yes, there maybe similar alternatives, but you get it just because its a Colt.

C4iGrant
12-07-2011, 9:07 AM
Did I read that right, 9rd Mags? What am I missing? :oji:

Correct.


C4

chicoredneck
12-07-2011, 9:16 AM
C4iGrant,

Your knowledge on this subject is greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

I just have to add one thing, unless you are one of the few people whos lives rely on these firearms and/or extreamly high volume of fire, the brand probbably is not going to make that much of a differance in your SHOOTING.

I have a RRA middy with many thousands of rounds through it that has functioned flawlessly other than a few magazine related problems.

C4iGrant
12-07-2011, 9:22 AM
C4iGrant,

Your knowledge on this subject is greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

I just have to add one thing, unless you are one of the few people whos lives rely on these firearms and/or extreamly high volume of fire, the brand probbably is not going to make that much of a differance in your SHOOTING.

I have a RRA middy with many thousands of rounds through it that has functioned flawlessly other than a few magazine related problems.

First, everyone SHOULD view every firearm they own as the ONE that they might have to bet their lives on. With this theory in mind, don't buy less quality.

Second, if you are not attending any firearms training (pistol or carbine), you are making an error (as you do not know what you don't konw).

Third, if you have a weapon that meets your needs, then keep it (no matter who made it).



C4

1 SIG fan
12-07-2011, 9:24 AM
I just bought one yesterday with the monalathic rail. Go for it. :).

ap3572001
12-07-2011, 9:30 AM
C4iGrant,

Your knowledge on this subject is greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

I just have to add one thing, unless you are one of the few people whos lives rely on these firearms and/or extreamly high volume of fire, the brand probbably is not going to make that much of a differance in your SHOOTING.

I have a RRA middy with many thousands of rounds through it that has functioned flawlessly other than a few magazine related problems.

I am not surprised at all. MId-Length RRA 16" chrome lined,HB uppers are really good. They are not cheap either.

chicoredneck
12-07-2011, 9:42 AM
First, everyone SHOULD view every firearm they own as the ONE that they might have to bet their lives on. With this theory in mind, don't buy less quality.

Second, if you are not attending any firearms training (pistol or carbine), you are making an error (as you do not know what you don't konw).

Third, if you have a weapon that meets your needs, then keep it (no matter who made it).



C4

You are a fantastic salesman sir!
You must provide firearms training as well?

I do agree that we do not know what we do not know. Many people fail to understand this, including you and myself about a great many things. :D

C4iGrant
12-07-2011, 9:55 AM
You are a fantastic salesman sir!
You must provide firearms training as well?

I do agree that we do not know what we do not know. Many people fail to understand this, including you and myself about a great many things. :D

LOL, well I really am not. Sales is my LEAST favorite part of the job. That is why we choose products that sell themselves.

We are a Regional Vickers Tactical Shooting Instructor, but mostly teach defensive pistol and carbine classes for FREE in Ohio.




C4

StratORcaster
12-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Post up when you buy!

1911ZENSHOOTER
12-07-2011, 12:23 PM
colt...schmolt

63 tango
12-07-2011, 10:17 PM
While yall are bickering I'm fondling my new Colt M4 Carbine and she feels real goodl

SideWinder11
12-08-2011, 12:53 AM
Thank you Grant for taking your time to post and educate others. Also thank you for making the Colt M4's available for us in CA at such a great price. Do you expect this price to continue or is it only short lived?

C4iGrant
12-08-2011, 8:44 AM
Thank you Grant for taking your time to post and educate others. Also thank you for making the Colt M4's available for us in CA at such a great price. Do you expect this price to continue or is it only short lived?

You are welcome and glad I could help!


We intend to offer our prices on Colt Legal AR's for as long as we can.



C4

civilsnake
12-08-2011, 3:26 PM
I fondled the standard M4 yesterday at Turners. Just like dad used to shoot :D

If for no other reason, I think I would geek out and get one for the roll mark. And there ARE other reasons. But you would need to chop that barrel a bit.

SoCalSig1911
12-08-2011, 3:29 PM
While yall are bickering I'm fondling my new Colt M4 Carbine and she feels real goodl

I'm sure it doesn't feel any different than the fondling of my new DDM4V1 :D

glock7
12-09-2011, 6:00 AM
While yall are bickering I'm fondling my new Colt M4 Carbine and she feels real goodl

lucky bastid! i am sooo...hatin right now. soon for me. enjoy that colt!;)

LiberalEater
12-09-2011, 6:12 AM
Buy it and let us know if you get arrested. Thanks.

63 tango
12-09-2011, 8:17 PM
lucky bastid! i am sooo...hatin right now. soon for me. enjoy that colt!;)
Thanks, in early 2006 when i got a Stag stripped lower buying a Colt was just a pipe dream so I'm pretty stoked about having a Colt.

speeedracerr
12-12-2011, 11:19 PM
I'm glad that Colt came out with a CA Compliant version! Someday, I hope to purchase a complete Colt rifle especially having rid of my Colt Sporter Lightweight many years ago! Nothing like having a pony in the stable.

louscamaro91
12-12-2011, 11:31 PM
Picking mine in the morning! Along with 4 other guns... Good lord:)

.40Cal
12-13-2011, 12:55 AM
For around $1100, I would never talk you out of one.

For $1100, isn't DD a better choice? :confused:

themailman
12-13-2011, 4:20 AM
The argument of "Im not a special forces commando, so I dont need the best" is mond blowing to me. Every firearm I own that fires a serious defensive round may be used to save my life or the lives of my family. With a Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, or KAC, I know that I have a weapon built to strict tolerances by people who excel at what they do.

Im not a race car driver, but I buy the best tires I can because my life depends on them, even when Im only going 35MPH.

Ive said this before, Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, PSA, DSG, Stag, SW, Doublestar, etc do not live up to a Colt 6920. The 6920 is the standard by which we measure all M4 Carbine variants, and if they cant live up to par, then they are subpar by definition.

I dont even own a Colt, but I know that I bought my BCM based on it being nearly identical to a Colt 6920 except for the midlength gas system. If Colt had a midlength out right now, I wouldve bought that. My AR is my Home Defense weapon, and if one day I have to use it to save a life, then I'll be damn glad I spent the extra $100-200 for a quality rifle. Buy the Colt and dont look back, others will hate on you because they want to justify their sub-par equipment, but just smile and keep having a blast.

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 6:55 AM
The argument of "Im not a special forces commando, so I dont need the best" is mond blowing to me. Every firearm I own that fires a serious defensive round may be used to save my life or the lives of my family. With a Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, or KAC, I know that I have a weapon built to strict tolerances by people who excel at what they do.

Im not a race car driver, but I buy the best tires I can because my life depends on them, even when Im only going 35MPH.

Ive said this before, Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, PSA, DSG, Stag, SW, Doublestar, etc do not live up to a Colt 6920. The 6920 is the standard by which we measure all M4 Carbine variants, and if they cant live up to par, then they are subpar by definition.

I dont even own a Colt, but I know that I bought my BCM based on it being nearly identical to a Colt 6920 except for the midlength gas system. If Colt had a midlength out right now, I wouldve bought that. My AR is my Home Defense weapon, and if one day I have to use it to save a life, then I'll be damn glad I spent the extra $100-200 for a quality rifle. Buy the Colt and dont look back, others will hate on you because they want to justify their sub-par equipment, but just smile and keep having a blast.



You are a wise man and "get it." I think many on this forum have forgotten what firearms are for (which isn't to shoot dirt and beer cans).



C4

fullspeed1
12-13-2011, 10:12 AM
The argument of "Im not a special forces commando, so I dont need the best" is mond blowing to me. Every firearm I own that fires a serious defensive round may be used to save my life or the lives of my family. With a Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, or KAC, I know that I have a weapon built to strict tolerances by people who excel at what they do.

Im not a race car driver, but I buy the best tires I can because my life depends on them, even when Im only going 35MPH.

Ive said this before, Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, PSA, DSG, Stag, SW, Doublestar, etc do not live up to a Colt 6920. The 6920 is the standard by which we measure all M4 Carbine variants, and if they cant live up to par, then they are subpar by definition.

I dont even own a Colt, but I know that I bought my BCM based on it being nearly identical to a Colt 6920 except for the midlength gas system. If Colt had a midlength out right now, I wouldve bought that. My AR is my Home Defense weapon, and if one day I have to use it to save a life, then I'll be damn glad I spent the extra $100-200 for a quality rifle. Buy the Colt and dont look back, others will hate on you because they want to justify their sub-par equipment, but just smile and keep having a blast.

Look, I own a 14.5 BCM middy with a BC 1.5 that I will never part with. But not every top tier AR variant is perfect. I took a 2 day Tactical Response Fighting Rifle class earlier this year in Sacramento with my old Stag Model 2 and put nearly 1500 rounds down range total in 2 days that included multiple mag dumps at a very high rate of fire with a single hiccup. All in total over 5k rounds through that AR with no issues, EVER. My buddy ran his brand new Daniel Defense middy and could not get through an entire mag at all, With fte/ftf for 2 days he perfect his malfunction manipulations. We tried every type of magazine from nearly every student in the class with no luck. It turns out that the extractor was the culprit. He had functioned tested the AR at our local range with no issues, But the flaw reared its headed when it was really put to use. He switched out his Bolt from his CMMG and the problem went away. Go figure.

chicoredneck
12-13-2011, 10:46 AM
The argument of "Im not a special forces commando, so I dont need the best" is mond blowing to me. Every firearm I own that fires a serious defensive round may be used to save my life or the lives of my family. With a Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, or KAC, I know that I have a weapon built to strict tolerances by people who excel at what they do.

Im not a race car driver, but I buy the best tires I can because my life depends on them, even when Im only going 35MPH.

Ive said this before, Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, PSA, DSG, Stag, SW, Doublestar, etc do not live up to a Colt 6920. The 6920 is the standard by which we measure all M4 Carbine variants, and if they cant live up to par, then they are subpar by definition.

I dont even own a Colt, but I know that I bought my BCM based on it being nearly identical to a Colt 6920 except for the midlength gas system. If Colt had a midlength out right now, I wouldve bought that. My AR is my Home Defense weapon, and if one day I have to use it to save a life, then I'll be damn glad I spent the extra $100-200 for a quality rifle. Buy the Colt and dont look back, others will hate on you because they want to justify their sub-par equipment, but just smile and keep having a blast.

The consumer decides what they want. A savvy consumer is going to look at the cost/benifit ratio and decide on what equals the best deal for their use and purpose.

The AR market is very competetive. There are many different brands to choose from and many of those brands are marketed to the same consumers for the same purpose. So how do these brands distinguish themselves? Some actually have higher quality parts or QC than others, but even then there are a number of high quality ARs to choose from. The companies selling ARs know this and try to market their strong points (real or perceived) in a hope to draw attention to their product. What makes people decide to buy Crest instead of Colgate toothpaste or vise versa?

In reality, many shooters are not buying an AR for the express purpose of home defence, SHTF, EOTWAWKI, combat, or what have you. Some buy them as collection pieces, some for target shooting, some just to shoot or have them, some for hunting, some for plinking, and so on. You need to decide what your buying your AR for and what satisfies your needs at an appropriate cost.

I use ARs for hunting and for plinking. One of my ARs is set up for high volume fire. I take it out and can blast a 1000 rounds a trip. I use it to shoot rabbits and varmints so portability was a concern. I wanted barrel longevity and reliablity. I also wanted at least 1 MOA accuracy for head shooting rabbits with quality ammo. Finally, this rifle gets used heavily and is not treated nice, so I didn't want something I was going to be afraid of beating up. I purchased accordingly.

I also have several different ARs in variouse calibers set up for hunting. I purchased those according to my needs. They are much different than my other ARs.

Fictitious Simily
12-13-2011, 2:29 PM
Get a Daniel Defense M4

My argument

89HEefl1KI4

stormy_clothing
12-13-2011, 3:54 PM
I dont even own a Colt, but I know that I bought my BCM based on it being nearly identical to a Colt 6920 except for the midlength gas system. If Colt had a midlength out right now, I wouldve bought that. My AR is my Home Defense weapon, and if one day I have to use it to save a life, then I'll be damn glad I spent the extra $100-200 for a quality rifle. Buy the Colt and dont look back, others will hate on you because they want to justify their sub-par equipment, but just smile and keep having a blast.


800 malfunctions in 3000 rounds tested. "Colt" is the reason our military has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on numerous tests to fix your Jesus guns failings.

If you want to rehash that it has to save my life garbage you need to put down the colt koolaid and buy an ak47 variant. ANY ak47 variant.

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 3:59 PM
800 malfunctions in 3000 rounds tested. "Colt" is the reason our military has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on numerous tests to fix your Jesus guns failings.

If you want to rehash that it has to save my life garbage you need to put down the colt koolaid and buy an ak47 variant. ANY ak47 variant.


That test (which included the 416 and some others) was revised and the malfunctions attributed to the Colt were GREATLY REDUCED (FYI).



C4

themailman
12-13-2011, 5:02 PM
800 malfunctions in 3000 rounds tested. "Colt" is the reason our military has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on numerous tests to fix your Jesus guns failings.

If you want to rehash that it has to save my life garbage you need to put down the colt koolaid and buy an ak47 variant. ANY ak47 variant.

Thats crazy, because after doing the Maritime Raid Force Combat Marksmanship course in K-Bay, HI, we fired nearly 2500 rds each in 4 days. I had 1 stovepipe and 3 magazine related malfs. I saw 2 brass over bolts, and shooters experienced on average 3-7 malfs over that time period. Those without experience and knowledge seem to speak the loudest, stormy_clothing included.

My Saiga Ak Variant was a stove-piping whore. YMMV, but dont speak on what you dont know.

Anyways, back to M4C, where those with real experience and knowledge get a platofrm to pass wisdom to others.

I knew there was a reason I stayed out of the CF Rifles section here.

themailman
12-13-2011, 5:06 PM
You are a wise man and "get it." I think many on this forum have forgotten what firearms are for (which isn't to shoot dirt and beer cans).



C4

I appreciate it Grant. My views came from listening quietly to those who knew more than me, firing thousands upon thousands of rounds through an issued M4 and M16, and actually getting out there on my own and taking classes/putting my own weapon through its paces.


Every man-made item will fail eventually, but buying the best that you can affords you a higher probability of it not failing. Buying the cheapest version of a product gives you mucher higher odds of it failing more often. Simple really, I dont know why, when it comes to guns, that adult men lose all logic and go for the cheapest available item.

louscamaro91
12-13-2011, 5:21 PM
Got mine, now get yours!
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/aa647218.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/456a14e9.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/6d93b68d.jpg

I like my kool-aid grape flavored please!
Yee-Haw, riding the pony!
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m600/Ldawg2885/dbc75d2d.jpg

GM4spd
12-13-2011, 5:32 PM
Lookin good Lou:D Pete

C4iGrant
12-13-2011, 6:46 PM
I appreciate it Grant. My views came from listening quietly to those who knew more than me, firing thousands upon thousands of rounds through an issued M4 and M16, and actually getting out there on my own and taking classes/putting my own weapon through its paces.


Every man-made item will fail eventually, but buying the best that you can affords you a higher probability of it not failing. Buying the cheapest version of a product gives you mucher higher odds of it failing more often. Simple really, I dont know why, when it comes to guns, that adult men lose all logic and go for the cheapest available item.


Well, that is just crazy talk there! :D


When I first got into AR's, I searched out knowledgeable posters on a couple different forums and read everything they wrote for a year straight before I bought my first AR!




C4

mrvash
12-13-2011, 7:37 PM
800 malfunctions in 3000 rounds tested. "Colt" is the reason our military has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on numerous tests to fix your Jesus guns failings.

If you want to rehash that it has to save my life garbage you need to put down the colt koolaid and buy an ak47 variant. ANY ak47 variant.

Except for IO Caser made AK's ;)

WTSGDYBBR
12-16-2011, 12:13 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95d_1323928078

Here let this clip talk you out of buying one. Buy a AK74 or Ak47.

norcal77
12-16-2011, 1:25 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95d_1323928078

Here let this clip talk you out of buying one. Buy a AK74 or Ak47.

I concur, the AK is the ultimate battle weapon...is that video for real? This guy is an actual US soldier filming himself on duty? What's next, he's gonna add a Rap soundtrack? This doesn't seem right to me...

After reading this thread I think I'll be getting me a Colt now, I've always wanted one and the price sounds right. Does Colt have a gas piston version?

Can anybody recommend a vendor who doesn't hate CA that has a good price, please PM me with details.

speeedracerr
12-16-2011, 1:58 AM
I concur, the AK is the ultimate battle weapon...is that video for real? This guy is an actual US soldier filming himself on duty? What's next, he's gonna add a Rap soundtrack? This doesn't seem right to me...

After reading this thread I think I'll be getting me a Colt now, I've always wanted one and the price sounds right. Does Colt have a gas piston version?

Can anybody recommend a vendor who doesn't hate CA that has a good price, please PM me with details.

I did ask on the Colt Facebook page regarding the piston version, but they said they are not available to CA at the moment. I believe it will be labeled as Colt 6940P

MrPlink
12-16-2011, 2:58 AM
not sure how he got banned but he can be reached on his website and he's been offering good deals..



ask him about where BCM sources their parts from, that should do the trick :43:

GM4spd
12-16-2011, 3:03 AM
will send you a pm but C4iGrant of G&R Tactical (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=COLT) has been all over this latest development of new CA legal Colts.. not sure how he got banned read about them here.. (http://www.defensereview.com/colt-advanced-piston-carbine-apc-meet-colts-new-piston-driven-hk416-killer/)

How did this happen? Geez,get a guy with some intel you can use,sells
to CA with good prices, and then gets thrown out:rolleyes:

Pete

dirtykoala
12-16-2011, 3:43 AM
Talk me OUT of buying a COLT M4.223:)

Why would You buy one?

Why You would not buy one.?

PS. Assuming You have no issues with the price.

they continue to fail the military

cannon
12-16-2011, 7:59 AM
they continue to fail the military

I guess it depends. My son did two tours as infantry and his never failed him.

cannon
12-16-2011, 8:00 AM
ask him about where BCM sources their parts from, that should do the trick :43:

For even a better reaction disagree with merc11?? about where they come from. :)

Noah3683
12-16-2011, 9:07 AM
How did this happen? Geez,get a guy with some intel you can use,sells
to CA with good prices, and then gets thrown out:rolleyes:

Pete

It's much safer to just let that situation be lol.

Noah3683
12-16-2011, 9:08 AM
For even a better reaction disagree with merc11?? about where they come from. :)

Talk about a meltdown lol

chicoredneck
12-16-2011, 11:07 AM
How did this happen? Geez,get a guy with some intel you can use,sells
to CA with good prices, and then gets thrown out:rolleyes:

Pete

Do some googling of grant timberlake and see what you get. Almost every forum he has partaken in has a similar flow (excluding M4carbine.net). It is my understanding that he is or was part owner of M4carbine.net.

I looked him up because I wanted to see if his wealth of information was legitimate. I belive much of it is, but he deffinaetly has a motive, justifiably so, to push certain products and a certain mindset.

When you wrestle with pigs you just get dirty, as to who is the pig???:rolleyes: because sometimes it just gets hard to tell after a while

LoooongGun
12-16-2011, 11:11 AM
After all your fun, what will the piece be selling for in ONE YEAR???

Half-Bear
12-16-2011, 11:29 AM
The testing done with the M4 vs. SCAR vs. 416 vs. XM8 where the M4 was reported to have a vast number of stoppages was attributed to the fact that the M4s used in testing were three round burst.

None of the other samples had a three round provision, and fired on full auto. It was reported that the testers, who were unfamiliar with the M4s three round burst, would count the one or two round bursts as stoppages.

If the reporting was true, I am not saying that the M4 would've came out on top if the testers had known about the M4 burst fire capability. From the consensus of the article, it sounded as if it was simply stating that the M4 isn't THAT bad.

Evolipse35
12-16-2011, 12:30 PM
i see 2 members on this thread that is banned :boxing_smiley:

Noah3683
12-16-2011, 1:37 PM
hmmm.. two guys with intelligent comments and/or experience that both share the same ideas..

banned for that?

I think something happened somewhere else..

I'll bite my tongue and carry on..

Correct and wise choice

fdesalvo
12-16-2011, 1:55 PM
...freshly pressed uniform, looks like he just stepped out of a shower, no tan (in the desert), no helmet, I don't really think this is legit. If it is, was this an ambush whereby these troopers were caught with their pants down and not dressed for the occasion?

Was this weapon properly maintained? Too many variables unaccounted for to base your opinion on this one video...

I've seen HUNDREDS of live-fire combat footage featuring these weapons and this is one of maybe 3 I've seen where the rifle malfunctions...I'd take this video along with it's commentary with a huge grain of salt.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=95d_1323928078

Here let this clip talk you out of buying one. Buy a AK74 or Ak47.

themailman
12-16-2011, 11:23 PM
Its funny how many non-military members talk about how the Colt fails me everyday. And yet, my issued Colt hasnt ever failed me. Weird.

SIGSHOOTR
12-17-2011, 12:05 AM
Its funny how many non-military members talk about how the Colt fails me everyday. And yet, my issued Colt hasnt ever failed me. Weird.

EXACTLY. And how "AKs never jam". Really? Is this firsthand knowledge gained downrange or are they parroting stuff they merely read/seen on the internet? I really would like to meet some of these dudes someday-- wonder who they are and what they look like. ;)

MrPlink
12-17-2011, 1:03 AM
Its funny how many non-military members talk about how the Colt fails me everyday. And yet, my issued Colt hasnt ever failed me. Weird.

I take it to mean you have never heard from anybody enlisted who did have a colt fail them?

FWIW I would wager most instances of an actual MIL rifle railing (at least one of the AR design) would have caused a malfunction in other Ar pattern, poor cleaning, lack of lube, bad mag etc etc etc

cannon
12-17-2011, 7:22 AM
hmmm.. two guys with intelligent comments and/or experience that both share the same ideas..

banned for that?

I think something happened somewhere else..

I'll bite my tongue and carry on..

Two otherwise sane, rational and good guys to have around just could not let go and it escalated when it should not have.

A lesson to all of us. Sometimes we should just smile and walk away.

jgraham15
12-17-2011, 7:35 AM
I came in late to this party! I see Grant got banned (hopefully not perma-banned) which sucks @ss because whether you like him or not he brought a lot of knowledge to this forum.

But who else got banned? I cant find the second person by reading the posts. Maybe I'm just missing it or posts got deleted.

comblock
12-17-2011, 8:55 AM
Well, since you would have to have a need to know and sign an NDA, I don't think YOU will ever see the document.

I luckily have friends at both Colt and FNH and get glimpses into what is called out.

Wait, you have friends in colt and FNH that disclosed to you propiertary information that is covered under a NonDisclosure Act? is that ethical? Is that even legal?

docsmileyface
12-17-2011, 9:02 AM
I take it to mean you have never heard from anybody enlisted who did have a colt fail them?

FWIW I would wager most instances of an actual MIL rifle railing (at least one of the AR design) would have caused a malfunction in other Ar pattern, poor cleaning, lack of lube, bad mag etc etc etc

My issue Colt M4 (W444823) failed me straight out of the box. It had a bad extractor. It was fixed easily of course and it was just fine after that but originally it had tons of FTEs which freaked me out because we were doing our predeployment training and I couldn't get the thing to fire more than a round before turning into a bolt gun.

BillyGoatMachine
12-17-2011, 9:30 AM
I came in late to this party! I see Grant got banned (hopefully not perma-banned) which sucks @ss because whether you like him or not he brought a lot of knowledge to this forum.

But who else got banned? I cant find the second person by reading the posts. Maybe I'm just missing it or posts got deleted.

It all happened in an entirely different thread which exploded in a matter of hours. Then, promptly got sent to the grave.

ap3572001
12-17-2011, 9:41 AM
Its sad, but the only .223 self loading rifles that NEVER gave me trouble are my 185 Series and 580 Series Mini-14's with RUGER magazines, Benelli MR1 and my OLD HK SL6.

kungfumanwayne
12-17-2011, 9:53 AM
what drama

if you can afford a colt then buy the colt. please don't slam other brands out there. people buy what they can afford. most people don't got out and shoot 800 to a 1000 rounds in one session or not clean or oil their guns. if i were going to combat, i would get the best possible ar15 but most are just hobbyist. as far as a ar15 for home defense, why. just get a $200 18 inch pump shotgun. can you really justify shooting someone at fifty to hundred yards. your 2k ar15 will be confiscated as evidence and possibly used in your criminal or civil trial. your are responsible for every round you shoot. do you want your stray rounds killing your neighbors.

wayne

SOCAL-PRINCE
12-17-2011, 9:57 AM
OP, my issued M4 did ok for me in the sand box. It was a high maintenance weapon and I ALWAYS worried about cleaning it for fear of any malfunctions. I know there a vids out there proving otherwise and the Colt DI system has worked well for many soldiers, but that was just MY experience. For range plinking, home defense, and just to have a Colt AR in CA the Colt would be an awesome choice. Bottom line it did its job for me but for harsh and extreme conditions I would go with a different system. I am a piston AR convert and the Colt piston system looks very appealing. Just my opinion...........

chicoredneck
12-17-2011, 9:58 AM
what drama

if you can afford a colt then buy the colt. please don't slam other brands out there. people buy what they can afford. most people don't got out and shoot 800 to a 1000 rounds in one session or not clean or oil their guns. if i were going to combat, i would get the best possible ar15 but most are just hobbyist. as far as a ar15 for home defense, why. just get a $200 18 inch pump shotgun. can you really justify shooting someone at fifty to hundred yards. your 2k ar15 will be confiscated as evidence and possibly used in your criminal or civil trial. your are responsible for every round you shoot. do you want to kill your neighbors.

wayne

I think someone just layed the rationality smack down. OH YEA!

ap3572001
12-17-2011, 10:34 AM
OP, my issued M4 did ok for me in the sand box. It was a high maintenance weapon and I ALWAYS worried about cleaning it for fear of any malfunctions. I know there a vids out there proving otherwise and the Colt DI system has worked well for many soldiers, but that was just MY experience. For range plinking, home defense, and just to have a Colt AR in CA the Colt would be an awesome choice. Bottom line it did its job for me but for harsh and extreme conditions I would go with a different system. I am a piston AR convert and the Colt piston system looks very appealing. Just my opinion...........

We have some Colt's and Bushmasters in the dept. They seem to work fine.
I just can't figure out why our old Mini-14's (GB models) break less and feed better.

ap3572001
12-17-2011, 10:39 AM
what drama

if you can afford a colt then buy the colt. please don't slam other brands out there. people buy what they can afford. most people don't got out and shoot 800 to a 1000 rounds in one session or not clean or oil their guns. if i were going to combat, i would get the best possible ar15 but most are just hobbyist. as far as a ar15 for home defense, why. just get a $200 18 inch pump shotgun. can you really justify shooting someone at fifty to hundred yards. your 2k ar15 will be confiscated as evidence and possibly used in your criminal or civil trial. your are responsible for every round you shoot. do you want to kill your neighbors.

wayne

Agree!

chicoredneck
12-17-2011, 11:30 AM
Colt bashing seems to be the next most popular thing to cop bashing around here :rolleyes:

not the other way around..

and just how does shooting your neighbors have anything to do with it?

are you trying to compare Colt AR pattern rifles to shotguns now?

maybe you need a cup of decaf..

Im not sure how you got colt bashing from the below post. I don't see anything derogatory towards colt or law enforcement. The statement was about the differing cost benefit and personal use of individuals. :shrug:

what drama

if you can afford a colt then buy the colt. please don't slam other brands out there. people buy what they can afford. most people don't got out and shoot 800 to a 1000 rounds in one session or not clean or oil their guns. if i were going to combat, i would get the best possible ar15 but most are just hobbyist. as far as a ar15 for home defense, why. just get a $200 18 inch pump shotgun. can you really justify shooting someone at fifty to hundred yards. your 2k ar15 will be confiscated as evidence and possibly used in your criminal or civil trial. your are responsible for every round you shoot. do you want to kill your neighbors.

wayne

OC Speedball
12-17-2011, 12:49 PM
I want one as my first AR!

But I want to swap out the upper for an old-school fixed carrying handle upper if I get one. Can someone point me in the right direction?...or would that just defeat the purpose of having a Colt in the first place? I hate the ugly removable carrying handle...

Noah3683
12-17-2011, 1:28 PM
Wait, you have friends in colt and FNH that disclosed to you propiertary information that is covered under a NonDisclosure Act? is that ethical? Is that even legal?

Way to call him out when he can't even respond. Boy did you show him

Code7inOaktown
12-17-2011, 3:22 PM
what drama

if you can afford a colt then buy the colt. please don't slam other brands out there. people buy what they can afford. most people don't got out and shoot 800 to a 1000 rounds in one session or not clean or oil their guns. if i were going to combat, i would get the best possible ar15 but most are just hobbyist. as far as a ar15 for home defense, why. just get a $200 18 inch pump shotgun. can you really justify shooting someone at fifty to hundred yards. your 2k ar15 will be confiscated as evidence and possibly used in your criminal or civil trial. your are responsible for every round you shoot. do you want your stray rounds killing your neighbors.

wayne

Wait a Colt M4 is $1,000. That's not bad and, really, there's no reason not to go the $100 or $200 more for a rifle built by Colt over a clone. Where are you pulling $2,000 out of?

As far as 12 gauge double-ought buck vs. 5.56: A 5.56 has far less penetration than buck, 9mm and 45 in a home environment. This has been proved many, many times before. In fact, 5.56's weakness is an inability to penetrate. Just because a carbine gives you effective range out to 200 meters doesn't mean you have to use it at 200 meters. What do you think is going to be more effective at 10 yards? 9mm/45 vs. a 5.56 M193 moving along at 3,000 fps?

As far as stray rounds killing your neighbors, there's nothing like touching off two blasts from double ought buck. That's 14-18 pellets that are going downrange which you must account for -- each one of them with a lawyer attached ready to sue you should it miss the target and hit something it's not supposed to. Two rounds from a 5.56 is two rounds. And as far as reloading, you can reload a ten round bullet button AR faster than you can refill a tube in a shotgun.

A $200 pump is what exactly? A Mossberg or 870 Express doesn't get cheaper than $300. What $200 pump are you talking about here?

And let's also talk about your concern about expense of the weapon being held as evidence. By your logic, you should be using a Lorcin .25 cal because it's far less to be held in evidence as your trial proceeds. Personally, I don't care about how much the weapon costs that defends me and mine, I just want it to work and that, frankly, is priceless.

glock7
12-18-2011, 8:18 AM
Wait a Colt M4 is $1,000. That's not bad and, really, there's no reason not to go the $100 or $200 more for a rifle built by Colt over a clone. Where are you pulling $2,000 out of?

As far as 12 gauge double-ought buck vs. 5.56: A 5.56 has far less penetration than buck, 9mm and 45 in a home environment. This has been proved many, many times before. In fact, 5.56's weakness is an inability to penetrate. Just because a carbine gives you effective range out to 200 meters doesn't mean you have to use it at 200 meters. What do you think is going to be more effective at 10 yards? 9mm/45 vs. a 5.56 M193 moving along at 3,000 fps?

As far as stray rounds killing your neighbors, there's nothing like touching off two blasts from double ought buck. That's 14-18 pellets that are going downrange which you must account for -- each one of them with a lawyer attached ready to sue you should it miss the target and hit something it's not supposed to. Two rounds from a 5.56 is two rounds. And as far as reloading, you can reload a ten round bullet button AR faster than you can refill a tube in a shotgun.

A $200 pump is what exactly? A Mossberg or 870 Express doesn't get cheaper than $300. What $200 pump are you talking about here?

And let's also talk about your concern about expense of the weapon being held as evidence. By your logic, you should be using a Lorcin .25 cal because it's far less to be held in evidence as your trial proceeds. Personally, I don't care about how much the weapon costs that defends me and mine, I just want it to work and that, frankly, is priceless.

exactly. i'd be willing to pay the 1300otd for a colt. hell i put my bcm together for almost that much, and definitely paid more than 1300 for the dd. and 2 rounds of .556 com....that'll get someones attention. with 8 more ready to go.:44: