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MilitaryArms
11-28-2011, 9:14 AM
eBj0tesg3SY

dieselpower
11-28-2011, 9:26 AM
$1300 in CA. Its called a 6920CA or something like that here. there are like 5 threads on it. For under $1000 go BCM, Stag, DTi, M1S, CMMG...search around.

putemup
11-28-2011, 9:35 AM
You can get the 6920 for about a grand!

ap3572001
11-28-2011, 9:41 AM
You can always get a really decent, service grade AR for 1000.00

Ziggy91
11-28-2011, 9:47 AM
What about the M&P15? I'd rather trust S&M than Colt.....

Olympic Arms has a few mid-lengths from $6-900, and a 20" for about $900...
anyone know the quality of those?
http://olyarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=5&vmcchk=1&Itemid=5

ZombieTactics
11-28-2011, 9:54 AM
Why would the Colt necessarily be "the best"?

I really can't think of many things where "milspec" represent "the best quality" or state-of-the-art. Consider that the Serpa2 holster is now "milspec", and that the old M12 holster is as well. Is the Beretta M9 "the best" handgun?

There is absolutely no doubt that the Colts are solid rifles ... not arguing that. The simple fact that it says "Colt" on it certainly has an undeniable cool-factor which cannot be denied. For a new buyer unsure of the particulars, it's kind of a no-brainer pick for sure. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy with their decision to go this route.

dieselpower
11-28-2011, 10:09 AM
The only thing people get all upset with Colt over is the anti-DIAS webbing.... as if they were going to actually drop in an auto sear... LOL

I guess when society collapses and the invaders from Mars are running around, you may have to use that AR15 and also want to option to install a DIAS...but unless that happens..its not going to happen...so why freak over it.

natrab
11-28-2011, 10:13 AM
While I did just order a Colt 6940CA (cost more than $1k). For someone looking for an already built AR-15 at a great price point I'd point them towards the M&P rifles. I've seen them as low as $6-700 and they are solid guns.

CK_32
11-28-2011, 10:52 AM
After taxes and fees like all others your looking at $1100 OTD.

MilitaryArms
11-28-2011, 10:52 AM
Why would the Colt necessarily be "the best"?

I really can't think of many things where "milspec" represent "the best quality" or state-of-the-art. Consider that the Serpa2 holster is now "milspec", and that the old M12 holster is as well. Is the Beretta M9 "the best" handgun?

There is absolutely no doubt that the Colts are solid rifles ... not arguing that. The simple fact that it says "Colt" on it certainly has an undeniable cool-factor which cannot be denied. For a new buyer unsure of the particulars, it's kind of a no-brainer pick for sure. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy with their decision to go this route.
The M16 went through several iterations before the M4 came into being. The M16 had all sorts of teething issues, issues that Colt worked to resolve with the Government. That's how the mil-spec standards were established for the M16/M4. While I agree mil-spec doesn't always mean much, not all mil-specs are equal. Given the history of the M16, it's problems, and the resolutions that ultimately made it one of the best service rifles in American history. It's through 50+ years of development, testing, and actual combat that the specs for the M16 have evolved into critical standards if you want a rifle that will hold up to hard use.

1911su16b870
11-28-2011, 11:08 AM
The best AR under $1k...is the one I build from parts :D

slo5oh
11-28-2011, 11:16 AM
eye of the beholder.

Disgruntled Gunny
11-28-2011, 11:26 AM
"The Best" is the one that goes "bang" when your life depends on it. Everything else is personal opinion/preference.

p2rider426
11-28-2011, 12:41 PM
PSA offers a ton of configurations for under 1k that are fantastic. It doesn't need to have a mainstream name to be "the best". I'd rather get a $600 PSA and use the extra $400 for practice rounds

Colt-45
11-28-2011, 1:37 PM
Jeez, love the way the AR-15 sounds in that particular video.

MrPlink
11-28-2011, 1:39 PM
Built my lmt for under 1k

Droppin Deuces
11-28-2011, 2:00 PM
"The Best" is the one that goes "bang" when your life depends on it. Everything else is personal opinion/preference.

But the salesmen pushing the new Colts around here lately like to make it sound as if only a Colt will go bang when your life depends on it.

MilitaryArms
11-28-2011, 2:59 PM
I count something on the order of around 50 manufacturers of AR's in the United States. These are companies that currently make, or recently made (but no longer do) AR's. Here's the list I've compiled.

Colt
Noveske
Daniel Defense
Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT)
CMMG
Sabre Defense
Smith & Wesson
Knight's Armament Company (KAC)
Barrett
Charles Daly
Stag Arms
Clark
Heckler & Koch (H&K)
Bushmaster
Palmetto State Armory
Rock River Arms
DPMS / Panther Arms
Olympic
Yankee Hill Machine (YHM)
Del-Ton
MSTN
LaRue Tactical
Superior Arms
D.S. Arms
Wilson Combat
Remington
Armalite
LWRC
POF
Nodak
Fulton
Spike's Tactical
Double Star
Les Baer
Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM)
Tactical Innovations
Model 1 Sales
Anvil Arms
High Standard
JP Enterprises
Ruger
SI Defense
Mossberg
Vulcan/Hesse
Sig
Sun Devil Manufacturing
Adcore

I'm sure it's not a complete list, that's just all that I could think of.

Of those, there are several companies I would consider to be top tier manufacturers. Companies like;

BCM
Daniels Defense
Noveske
LMT
LWRC
Knights
H&K

...and some companies that are also known to make outstanding rifles such as;

S&W
RRA
Palmetto State Armory
Spikes
Ruger

Once again, I'm sure I left a few out, but you get the idea. There are many choices for a good quality AR that will "go bang" when you pull the trigger. I never claimed, nor would I claim, that you must buy a Colt if you want a quality AR. My point is that at the current prices, the 6920 is a hard rifle to pass up if you want a good quality AR made by a defense contractor. I remember when the 6920's went for over $1,200 or more. So being able to get one of these rifles right now for a little over $900 is a good deal, IMHO.

mmrx2
11-28-2011, 3:12 PM
I would rather take my time and build it the way I would want, then to hurry and get a rifle for under $1000. Unless the configuration is the way you want. Buy nice or buy twice is what always ends up happening to me. Just my opinion, buy what makes you happy

FourLoko
11-28-2011, 3:25 PM
he's pimping his youtube channel, which is a good one by the way

I'll say it again, meh and it's more than $1,000

Spoilerv2
11-28-2011, 3:30 PM
My point is that at the current prices, the 6920 is a hard rifle to pass up if you want a good quality AR made by a defense contractor. I remember when the 6920's went for over $1,200 or more. So being able to get one of these rifles right now for a little over $900 is a good deal, IMHO.



So does this mean you'll be selling the Colt 6920CAs or having a dealer sell these for little over $900 for us folk in CA? If not thise this is a mute point, because the are still nearly $1,200 here.

Gio
11-28-2011, 3:39 PM
No CTD for CA :( also by the time you do the transfer and pay outside sales tax it will probably cost the same to order it from a local dealer that can bring it in for you.

Killawhale415
11-28-2011, 4:22 PM
Motion to ban "The Best AR" threads anyone?

CK_32
11-28-2011, 4:24 PM
Once again, I'm sure I left a few out, but you get the idea. There are many choices for a good quality AR that will "go bang" when you pull the trigger. I never claimed, nor would I claim, that you must buy a Colt if you want a quality AR. My point is that at the current prices, the 6920 is a hard rifle to pass up if you want a good quality AR made by a defense contractor. I remember when the 6920's went for over $1,200 or more. So being able to get one of these rifles right now for a little over $900 is a good deal, IMHO.

I think where your losing a lot of people is the word "best" in your title. You make it sound like its above all else when it comes to a budget build in that range and in your video sounds like its the only quality AR you can get for under $1k.

CK_32
11-28-2011, 4:30 PM
But the salesmen pushing the new Colts around here lately like to make it sound as if only a Colt will go bang when your life depends on it.

Not only the sales men but everyone around the forums. They talk like colt is the gods AR and is the only AR to own just because they have a military contract. But don't understand contacts aren't about just the best rifle but about how many can you get me when I need it for the cheapest and what can we do for each other.. Is who really usually wins the contracts. It's all politics.

I'm not sayin they are bad rifles but the only thing I hate about colts is the fan base who act like their colt blows everyone else's AR away because it says colt on the side. Same with the 1911 guys..

Lagduf
11-28-2011, 8:32 PM
Oh how I desire a Colt SP6920CA :D

I will be purchasing one.

Cali-Shooter
11-28-2011, 8:52 PM
I built my Stag for less than $700 just the way I like it, but Aimpoint optic threw it off into the 1k+ range.

h0use
11-28-2011, 9:11 PM
599$ for a smith and wesson!

.40Cal
11-28-2011, 11:25 PM
Motion to ban "The Best AR" threads anyone?



I agree.... I would like to know the "Best AR" too. Can you please let me know...

Thanks.

fullspeed1
11-29-2011, 5:52 AM
Garbage, I'd rather put together a Midlength BCM for less than that hyped up Colt.

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 6:58 AM
$1300 in CA. Its called a 6920CA or something like that here. there are like 5 threads on it. For under $1000 go BCM, Stag, DTi, M1S, CMMG...search around.

We sell the 6920CA for $1010 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6920CA) & the 6940CA for $1310 (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=6940CA).



C4

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 6:59 AM
What about the M&P15? I'd rather trust S&M than Colt.....

Olympic Arms has a few mid-lengths from $6-900, and a 20" for about $900...
anyone know the quality of those?
http://olyarms.net/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=5&vmcchk=1&Itemid=5

Interesting. Why would you say that????


C4

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 7:06 AM
But the salesmen pushing the new Colts around here lately like to make it sound as if only a Colt will go bang when your life depends on it.

I don't know who that is, but will give my input (just for you). ;)


When you are looking at betting your life on a gun, do you want one that has set standards to follow (TDP)? Do you want one that is REQUIRED to make the gun to a KNOWN quality? Or do you want one that does not have a set standard to follow and just chooses parts that put the most money in THEIR pocket?

Remember that not all parts are created equal. On top of that, not all assemblers are created equal. The quality of the firearm is the sum of its parts + how it was assembled.

So if I was going to choose an AR that I had to bet my life on, there are very few that would get the nod.


YMMV.



C4

darqhelmet
11-29-2011, 9:17 AM
I was issued many different Colts during my enlistment. A2's M4's and A4's. They all had issues. Colt is not perfect and they sure as hell don't have the fit and finish that a lot of the smaller companies. To me they are just another AR. Why people put them in some God like status is beyond me.

coyotebait
11-29-2011, 9:30 AM
I don't know who that is, but will give my input (just for you). ;)


When you are looking at betting your life on a gun, do you want one that has set standards to follow (TDP)? Do you want one that is REQUIRED to make the gun to a KNOWN quality? Or do you want one that does not have a set standard to follow and just chooses parts that put the most money in THEIR pocket?

Remember that not all parts are created equal. On top of that, not all assemblers are created equal. The quality of the firearm is the sum of its parts + how it was assembled.

So if I was going to choose an AR that I had to bet my life on, there are very few that would get the nod.


YMMV.



C4

Umm, I'll go for the gun that I've put thousands of rounds through and know works well, regardless of what name/picture is on the lower receiver.

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 9:43 AM
599$ for a smith and wesson!

Meh ... I like my S&W Sport just fine, but I would not put it in the "best under $1k" category.

jonzer77
11-29-2011, 9:45 AM
No CTD for CA :( also by the time you do the transfer and pay outside sales tax it will probably cost the same to order it from a local dealer that can bring it in for you.

Not really, I can get it from $1153 after shipping and transfer fees if I buy from Grant and go through a kitchen table ffl.......that is including paying tax as well to the ffl.

Shops want about $1200 before taxes and fees so you are looking at a savings of about $170. That is a lot of mags and ammo.

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 10:02 AM
I was issued many different Colts during my enlistment. A2's M4's and A4's. They all had issues. Colt is not perfect and they sure as hell don't have the fit and finish that a lot of the smaller companies. To me they are just another AR. Why people put them in some God like status is beyond me.

You have to remember that issued Colt's were often neglected (Meaning PM's not being done by armorers). This is and was the cause of most issues.

Just like ANY machine, you have to keep up with the maintenance or it will fail (no matter who made it).


Colt is one of two companies that hold the TDP. They know about this weapon system than ANY OTHER company. That is why people hold them in such high regard.



C4

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 10:04 AM
Umm, I'll go for the gun that I've put thousands of rounds through and know works well, regardless of what name/picture is on the lower receiver.

True. The gun that has the BEST odds of being reliable is going to be one built using the best (tested and inspected) parts and assembled properly.



C4

Dave07997S
11-29-2011, 10:29 AM
I don't know who that is, but will give my input (just for you). ;)


When you are looking at betting your life on a gun, do you want one that has set standards to follow (TDP)? Do you want one that is REQUIRED to make the gun to a KNOWN quality? Or do you want one that does not have a set standard to follow and just chooses parts that put the most money in THEIR pocket?

Remember that not all parts are created equal. On top of that, not all assemblers are created equal. The quality of the firearm is the sum of its parts + how it was assembled.

So if I was going to choose an AR that I had to bet my life on, there are very few that would get the nod.


YMMV.



C4

Grant, my mother used to say.."you can lead a horse to water, but you will never make him drink."

Dave

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Grant, my mother used to say.."you can lead a horse to water, but you will never make him drink."

Dave

I know. Since I actually work in this industry and build guns for a living, I try and help educate folks on what is what. Sometimes people appreciate it and sometimes they stick their head in the sand and believe they know more than I do.



C4

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 10:46 AM
... Colt is one of two companies that hold the TDP. They know about this weapon system than ANY OTHER company. That is why people hold them in such high regard. ...
In all candor and with no snarkiness meant, the technical data package (TDP) is simply the governments specifications for what they want to buy. It's just a detailed spec of how something has to be made and tested. It has nothing to do with establishing any kind of "super-duper quality". The spec has as much to do with controlling costs while establishing a minimum baseline of acceptability as anything else. It seems mysterious and "cool", because - like most weapons systems - the M4 TDP is more-or-less classified. I the case of the M4, I say "more or less", because it's not even really a government specification, but rather a proprietary document owned by Colt and licensed by the military. The lawsuit between the US Army and Colt revealed a bunch of silly crap in the TDP which has absolutely nothing to do with insuring quality, but rather just making it impossible for someone else to build the rifle "according to spec". It's a political tool used by Colt to insure that they don't have to actually compete against any other designs ... which should tell you something.

The spec document for Oreo cookies is over 16 pages long, BTW. It does nothing but establish what the government expects to get when they order Oreo cookies ... nothing more. You get the same cookie in your store ... for a LOT less money.

I realize that I just skewered someone's sacred cow ... flame retardant suit at the ready.

The point is not that Colt makes a "bad product", as they clearly don't. It's more to the point that they aren't really anything special from a purely technical standpoint. The firearms industry is very bound by tradition, and progress happens at a glacial pace. There is nothing "cutting edge" about any of it, it's all old technology which is well understood. There is no good reason to believe that Colt has some corner on the market.

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 11:04 AM
In all candor and with no snarkiness meant, the technical data package (TDP) is simply the governments specifications for what they want to buy. It's just a detailed spec of how something has to be made and tested. It has nothing to do with establishing any kind of "super-duper quality". The spec has as much to do with controlling costs while establishing a minimum baseline of acceptability as anything else.

Correct (almost). It is the lowest quality allowed for a FIGHTING WEAPON.

It seems mysterious and "cool", because - like most weapons systems - the M4 TDP is more-or-less classified. I the case of the M4, I say "more or less", because it's not even really a government specification, but rather a proprietary document owned by Colt and licensed by the military. The lawsuit between the US Army and Colt revealed a bunch of silly crap in the TDP which has absolutely nothing to do with insuring quality, but rather just making it impossible for someone else to build the rifle "according to spec". It's a political tool used by Colt to insure that they don't have to actually compete against any other designs ... which should tell you something.

True (almost). Colt knows more about building fighting guns than just about anyone else. They don't want to share their trade secrets as they do and know things that other companies have no idea about. Specifically, Colt deviates from the TDP as they have found better ways to do certain things. They do not want competitors to get this info (and rightfully so).

The spec document for Oreo cookies is over 16 pages long, BTW. It does nothing but establish what the government expects to get when they order Oreo cookies ... nothing more. You get the same cookie in your store ... for a LOT less money.

I realize that I just skewered someone's sacred cow ... flame retardant suit at the ready.

Oreo's have a TDP? Cool!

Now letís face the facts. Almost NO COMPANY comes close to building an AR that has the same quality as what the TDP calls out. So how can you go above what the TDP calls out when you cannot even meet it?

I am all for companies going above the TDP, but the sad truth I can think of VERY FEW that even try. Some examples of companies trying would be KAC's bolt and barrel extension, Colt machining BCG's smaller and applying one of the new coatings that enhance reliability (nickel boron, etc), X-raying steel PRIOR to it being made into bolts and barrels to catch internal cracks.

So the simple fact is that most companies are just trying to catch up to what the TDP calls out and do not have the time or resources to actually produce a weapon that is above what the TDP specs out.

Thank you for you post (as it has been one of the more thought out ones I have ever seen on this forum)!



C4

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 12:10 PM
It's true that Colt does not like sharing its trade secrets.

They pulled the CM901 from the trials to replace the M4 recently. They said their reason for doing so was because the Government intends to task 3 suppliers for the contract to produce whatever weapon is selected. That meant Colt would have to share its trade secrets with its competitors to allow them to manufacture the CM901, if it were to be selected.

Apparently there's something there they don't want to share bad enough to walk away from a potential military contract.

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 12:20 PM
... Apparently there's something there they don't want to share bad enough to walk away from a potential military contract. But strangely not unique enough that they could protect it under patent law? There'e a helluva lot of money to be made from licensing, which Colt well knows.

I have no way of knowing (and none of us really does), but I could as easily suggest that they simply can't afford yet another round of placing dead last in trials and testing? And honestly, I really don't believe that. Neither should you believe it had anything to do with protecting trade secrets ... unless they are the same kind of silliness which came to light in the law suit. In the end they'll do what they've always done ... pay the right lobbyists, give to the right campaigns, lower the price.

It's an open question for me which needs answering: Is there a single part in a Colt rifle which can't be had for a lower price at the same quality, or better quality at the same price, or the same quality at the same price ... from some other vendor? This should be a demonstrable fact, rather than a marketing message. I am open to instruction.

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 12:24 PM
I realize that I just skewered someone's sacred cow ... flame retardant suit at the ready.
I'm not sure what you think you've said that's so impressive. What I can tell you is that there's nothing in your post that changes the fact that the specifications set forth by the government for the M16/M4 is a culmination of decades of R&D, hard use, several conflicts, and learning what works and what doesn't.

Most AR15 aficionados would point to the much maligned "chart" (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqmgMm61Ok7WdExwaG16OENzOEZ1akp2a3Y2NjMxTEE&single=true&gid=2&output=html) that captures many of the features that are set forth by government specifications for the M16/M4. Of course this chart doesn't delve into the details of manufacturing processes and testing that's required, but it does give a glimpse into what those specifications are.

I never said the Colt M4 was the end all rifle. As a matter of fact I clearly state that some companies either meet or even exceed military standards in their rifles. My point in the video was that if you want a real M4, or as close as you'll legally come as a peasant, the Colt 6920 is it. That, and it's selling for a very low price right now. Just a couple of years ago the same rifle was selling for $1300 or more. So it's a great deal to get a civilian copy of the M4 rifle.

The point is not that Colt makes a "bad product", as they clearly don't. It's more to the point that they aren't really anything special from a purely technical standpoint. The firearms industry is very bound by tradition, and progress happens at a glacial pace. There is nothing "cutting edge" about any of it, it's all old technology which is well understood. There is no good reason to believe that Colt has some corner on the market.

No one said what they make is "special". What has been said is that what they make is of good quality and desirable. No one has said Colt had "some corner on the market". You're making strawman arguments then knocking them down... that's what I've seen thus far in your comments.

maxima
11-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Colt use TDP for their government contract as we all know.

As I saw quite a lot of 1:9 barreled colt sporter ARs, along with weird take down pin, trigger pin, and anti-RADS webbing in lower..., I really doubt Colt would build civilian products to their military standard (TDP).

Is there a civilian TDP Colt has to follow for their commercial ARs?

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Cold use TDP for their government contract as we all know.

As I saw quite a lot of 1:9 barreled colt sporter ARs, along with weird take down pin, trigger pin, and anti-RADS webbing in lower..., I really doubt Colt would build civilian products to their military standard (TDP).

Is there a civilian TDP Colt has to follow for their commercial ARs?

Do you think they are running two different production lines? It seems to be highly unlikely.

Why wouldn't they use the same specs in their civilians AR's (I know that they do by the way, at least according to Colt themselves).

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 1:00 PM
I'm not sure what you think you've said that's so impressive. What I can tell you is that there's nothing in your post that changes the fact that the specifications set forth by the government for the M16/M4 is a culmination of decades of R&D, hard use, several conflicts, and learning what works and what doesn't. Well, it's not a pissing contest I assure you, lol. I'd simply note that all that "stuff" continually results in a rifle which tests out at the bottom of the pack in military trials. In fairness, some of those guns are more expensive than the Colt offering. But in cases where they weren't Colt's response was to lower the price rather than improve the quality.

Also to be fair, we are at the point of arguing about whether a 9-ton slab of concrete will crush a man better than a 9-ton bag of rocks. In both cases the specs are so far beyond what is actually required that it's really just a fun discussion ... which is what this is for me. I've shot Colts enough to know that I think they are fine guns indeed, and I presently own something of ostensibly lower quality ... which is working just fine for me.

I never said the Colt M4 was the end all rifle. As a matter of fact I clearly state that some companies either meet or even exceed military standards in their rifles. My point in the video was that if you want a real M4, or as close as you'll legally come as a peasant, the Colt 6920 is it. That, and it's selling for a very low price right now. Just a couple of years ago the same rifle was selling for $1300 or more. So it's a great deal to get a civilian copy of the M4 rifle. I have no argument with you there. It actually appeals to me quite a bit on a visceral level. For all I've said, I can see buying one myself ... just because ... and never having cause to regret the decision.

No one said what they make is "special". What has been said is that what they make is of good quality and desirable. No one has said Colt had "some corner on the market". You're making strawman arguments then knocking them down... that's what I've seen thus far in your comments. Meh, I think some of it has been at least implied. Not by you, as you seem too level headed to engage in wild exaggerations of that kind. Maybe I'm hallucinating. Nonetheless, I think you've identified a middle ground to everyone's liking.

Hoop
11-29-2011, 1:38 PM
Building your own is the best 1k option. That's what this cost me not counting the scope:

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/Hooperinius/S5003264.jpg

780 for upper + stock assembly, 120 for LPK w/2stage trigger, 80 for lower, 20 for bbutton. Barrel is one of the new rainier match barrels they were selling for 220, YHM handguards with removable rails, magpul CTR, shoots very well. Poorman's OBR :)

maxima
11-29-2011, 1:39 PM
It is very likely, as their civilian version has significant differences and doing so will save cost for them.

As I stated before, Colt also use different barrels, lower receivers, butt stocks and other small parts for commercial ARs, therefore, it is highly impossible to build them to meet TDP requirement, no matter how Colt claims.

No one deny that Colt makes fine ARs for civilian market, like a lot of other AR manufactures/builders. But claim their civilian version AR is mil-spec or best quality is somewhat misleading.

Do you think they are running two different production lines? It seems to be highly unlikely.

Why wouldn't they use the same specs in their civilians AR's (I know that they do by the way, at least according to Colt themselves).

Colt use TDP for their government contract as we all know.

As I saw quite a lot of 1:9 barreled colt sporter ARs, along with weird take down pin, trigger pin, and anti-RADS webbing in lower..., I really doubt Colt would build civilian products to their military standard (TDP).

Is there a civilian TDP Colt has to follow for their commercial ARs?

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 2:02 PM
But strangely not unique enough that they could protect it under patent law? There'e a helluva lot of money to be made from licensing, which Colt well knows.

Patent laws are ONLY as good IF you are willing to spend a lot of money in the court systems (defending them).

I have no way of knowing (and none of us really does), but I could as easily suggest that they simply can't afford yet another round of placing dead last in trials and testing? And honestly, I really don't believe that. Neither should you believe it had anything to do with protecting trade secrets ... unless they are the same kind of silliness which came to light in the law suit. In the end they'll do what they've always done ... pay the right lobbyists, give to the right campaigns, lower the price.


Certain groups in the Military as looking at a new 5.56 rifle. After much down selection there are three left. One of them is a Colt. ;)

Colt does not shy away from contracts UNLESS there is no reason to win them.

It's an open question for me which needs answering: Is there a single part in a Colt rifle which can't be had for a lower price at the same quality, or better quality at the same price, or the same quality at the same price ... from some other vendor? This should be a demonstrable fact, rather than a marketing message. I am open to instruction.

Nope, but at this point few to NONE have stepped up.

I don't know if people realize this, but you can get a Colt 6920 for $970 (which is what we sell them for). This is hovering around the BM/RRA/DPMS/Etc level. So its not like Colt is $500 hundred dollars above the competition. In fact, they are below or equal to the cost of many other brands.



C4

C4iGrant
11-29-2011, 2:04 PM
Colt use TDP for their government contract as we all know.

As I saw quite a lot of 1:9 barreled colt sporter ARs, along with weird take down pin, trigger pin, and anti-RADS webbing in lower..., I really doubt Colt would build civilian products to their military standard (TDP).

Is there a civilian TDP Colt has to follow for their commercial ARs?

Incorrect. The only difference between an M4 and a commercial M4 is barrel length and FA setting. Same parts made by the same people.

Yes, they do offer barrels that are SS, different lengths and differnt weights along with stocks and such. The core compoents are of the same quality (trust me, I have asked these questions DIRECTLY to Colt).


C4

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 2:13 PM
... but you can get a Colt 6920 for $970 (which is what we sell them for). ...
Tempting.

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 2:33 PM
Meh, I think some of it has been at least implied. Not by you, as you seem too level headed to engage in wild exaggerations of that kind. Maybe I'm hallucinating. Nonetheless, I think you've identified a middle ground to everyone's liking.
I walk the middle road because I learned a long time ago that the term "best" is subjective. What I deem to be the "best" won't necessarily be the "best" to someone else... and they likely have a whole laundry list they can cite as to why they disagree.

I realize there are better rifles than Colt, potentially. We all draw upon on our life experiences, biases, and even the opinions of those whom we trust and/or respect to draw our own opinions about things. My first Colt AR was purchased when I was in high school. It was my first centerfire rifle. I still have that rifle in the safe. It's fired God only knows how many rounds since being purchased in 1986 yet it's never broken or even worn out a part. I carried a couple of Colt M16A2's in the Marines. I came to trust, even dare I say "love" the rifle during those years. When I was discharged I missed my service rifle so much I bought a Colt AR15A2 that I've kept since, although it's rarely shot because I want to keep it as nice as possible to hand down to my sons. But I have other AR's, some Colt and others not that I use as range toys including a Colt M16A2 that I've not been kind to over the years (thousands upon thousands of rounds fired).

Through all of that I've found the Colt rifles to be durable, well made, nicely finished, compatible with nearly every aftermarket part I've bought. Generally, they've been outstanding rifles.

I do place more value in a Colt rifle than I do a Daniels Defense, or a BCM... or any one of the other flavors I have laying around the house. Funny thing is, so do others. Colt AR's seem to hold their resale value quite well. Heck, there's even a collectors market out there for them.

My point in all of this? If you buy a Colt, you're probably going to be happy with it.

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 3:25 PM
Let's also keep in mind that while Colt has pulled the CM901 from the trials because they don't wish to share their trade secrets on the design, they still have an entry in the competition. It's called the Colt Enhanced Rifle. It's a M4 with a gas piston system and a few other minor changes. I guess they're not concerned with this being shared given the proliferation of gas piston AR's these days.

ZombieTactics
11-29-2011, 3:38 PM
... they still have an entry in the competition. It's called the Colt Enhanced Rifle. It's a M4 with a gas piston system and a few other minor changes. I guess they're not concerned with this being shared given the proliferation of gas piston AR's these days.

OK ... so let me be a "pill" here ... does Colt have more experience with Gas Piston designs than anyone else? (ducking for cover) ... I'm just waiting for everyone to pretend that Colt invented it or something. Also, since Colt's position has been that piston guns offer no real advantage, how is this "enhanced"? (whew! missed me that time, but close). Will DI suddenly be "crap" despite being "the gold standard" for so long? How about they just stop using ancient technology (especially chrome lined barrels) and lead for once? ... (OK now I am running, because I hear planes).

;) (just funnin' for the lulz)

MilitaryArms
11-29-2011, 5:21 PM
OK ... so let me be a "pill" here ... does Colt have more experience with Gas Piston designs than anyone else? (ducking for cover) ... I'm just waiting for everyone to pretend that Colt invented it or something. Also, since Colt's position has been that piston guns offer no real advantage, how is this "enhanced"? (whew! missed me that time, but close). Will DI suddenly be "crap" despite being "the gold standard" for so long? How about they just stop using ancient technology (especially chrome lined barrels) and lead for once? ... (OK now I am running, because I hear planes).

;) (just funnin' for the lulz)

Actually, Colt had a gas piston prototype AR back in the late 60's. I'm trying to dig up a picture of the elusive creature. But yes, they were doing it way back then. They also had a prototype belt fed AR that got scrapped. To this day companies are still playing with that idea (Ares Defense and their Shrike as an example).

MilitaryArms
12-01-2011, 2:38 PM
Larry Vickers chimes on in the top 3 AR makers for fighting rifles:

9mKD-CmX4zQ

He covers it in the first 60 seconds or so.

Droppin Deuces
12-01-2011, 2:46 PM
Larry Vickers chimes on in the top 3 AR makers for fighting rifles:

9mKD-CmX4zQ

He covers it in the first 60 seconds or so.

He's a salesman. Ever talk to a race car driver or motorcycle racer? Whoever supports him and gives him free stuff is who gets his recommendation.

InGrAM
12-01-2011, 2:47 PM
He's a salesman. Ever talk to a race car driver or motorcycle racer? Whoever supports him and gives him free stuff is who gets his recommendation.

Exactly ^

MilitaryArms
12-01-2011, 3:02 PM
He's a salesman. Ever talk to a race car driver or motorcycle racer? Whoever supports him and gives him free stuff is who gets his recommendation.

Sounds good, however that's not true. He is affiliated the Daniels Defense, however he isn't affiliated with Colt or BCM. He also thinks the AK is one of the best combat rifles around, do you believe that's because Mr. Kalashnikov gave him a free rifle?

Given your comments, I would say you've never met the man.

He's a well respected trainer in the community that has a very good, hard earned reputation.

Droppin Deuces
12-01-2011, 4:12 PM
Sounds good, however that's not true. He is affiliated the Daniels Defense, however he isn't affiliated with Colt or BCM. He also thinks the AK is one of the best combat rifles around, do you believe that's because Mr. Kalashnikov gave him a free rifle?

Given your comments, I would say you've never met the man.

He's a well respected trainer in the community that has a very good, hard earned reputation.

I know some very well respected salesmen.