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View Full Version : 2007 Law requires loaded chamber indicator + mag safety??? = stock up on 1911s?


xdpackin
02-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Hello Everybody,

I'm a huge fan of hanguns and the 1911 in particular. I really enjoy it and I just found out about a law that came into effect on Jan 1 2007 that requires all handguns that are submitted for a CA drop test to have a loaded chamber indicator and a mag safety so the gun will not fire when the mag is out of the gun. That means that there is a bunch of guns on the list right now that will expire this year or early 2008 which will not be able to get back into CA unless they make a bunch of stupid mods to them. I'm a huge 1911 fan and I love the 70 series. I'm planning to stock up on a bunch of Rock Island & Springfield GI models. I'm also going to purchase a few high end guns that I have wanted for a while. Anybody have any info about this? Is there any good news?

SVTNate
02-26-2007, 10:37 AM
You have misunderstood the certification process. If the manufacturer renews a currently certified gun prior to the expiration date, it may continue to be certified without additional testing or modifications to satisfy newly amended law.

So, as long as 1911 makers pay their extortion fees, the guns will continue to be certified without needing LCI's or mag safeties.

That said, the new requirements have pretty much killed the notion of getting new 1911's into California.

CWM4A1
02-26-2007, 10:52 AM
Wait until some one really killed the 1911 design and come up with a nasty magazine disconnect that integrated into the gun and make the trigger worse then stock series 80 design...

CalNRA
02-26-2007, 10:55 AM
so yes, stock up on cheap 1911s for the frames.

CalNRA
02-26-2007, 10:56 AM
Wait until some one really killed the 1911 design and come up with a nasty magazine disconnect that integrated into the gun and make the trigger worse then stock series 80 design...

it's acutally quite doable with the 80 series firing pin block or slightly alter the grip safety such that without a magazine it cannot be depressed, thus no firing, at least when stock. All it takes is a small change in the main spring housing, so the exisiting pre-70 series guns like the Springfields can survive wit ha small redesign in the MSH.

it will drive up the cost of guns but, at least no major resign to the 1911 design

CALI-gula
02-26-2007, 10:58 AM
... I just found out about a law that came into effect on Jan 1 2007 that requires all handguns that are submitted for a CA drop test to have a loaded chamber indicator and a mag safety so the gun will not fire when the mag is out of the gun. That means that there is a bunch of guns on the list right now that will expire this year or early 2008 which will not be able to get back into CA unless they make a bunch of stupid mods to them. ...Anybody have any info about this? Is there any good news?


Just found out about it? Yikes! Welcome to Calguns, and you will shortly realize that you will want to come here to Calguns.net a lot in the future! Authored by Jackass Scott, Gray Davis signed it into law, part to take effect last year and part this year. Many people have heard about it, for the past 4 years or so. NO there is NO good news, unless you want to call that your previous worry of it affecting models already released and on the list prior to 1/1/2007 a lesser threat than you may have thought, good news, but I wouldn't call any of it "good news". :(

SB 489 (Stats. 2003, ch. 500) (Scott)

* Requires that effective January 1, 2006, no semiautomatic center-fire pistol model may be added to the roster of handguns certified for sale in California unless it has a chamber load indicator or, if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism. No rimfire semiautomatic pistol that has a detachable magazine may be added to the certified list of handguns for sale in California unless it has a magazine disconnect mechanism. Effective January 1, 2007, no semiautomatic pistol may be added to the roster unless it has both a chamber load indicator and, if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism. Handgun models that have been placed on the roster prior to the new requirements becoming operative may remain on the roster without these features (PC 12126, 12130).

* Exempts the sale, loan, or transfer of any semiautomatic pistol that is to be used solely as a prop in a motion picture, television, or video production by an authorized agent of the entity producing the production or event from the requirements pertaining to the roster of handguns certified for sale in California (PC 12132).


http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/2003bills.php
.

Kruzr
02-26-2007, 11:03 AM
This has NO affect on the guns currently on the list provided the manufacturers pay the renewal fees. It only applies for new guns submitted for testing. Renewal doesn't require the testing. The 1911's that are on the list now will still be on the list next year unless they aren't selling and the maker doesn't want to pop for the $300 to get it renewed.

CALI-gula
02-26-2007, 11:37 AM
This has NO affect on the guns currently on the list provided the manufacturers pay the renewal fees. It only applies for new guns submitted for testing. Renewal doesn't require the testing. The 1911's that are on the list now will still be on the list next year unless they aren't selling and the maker doesn't want to pop for the $300 to get it renewed.


This is all true as noted above. However, what everyone should take note of is that nothing lasts for ever. For the same reason there are no Colt Model 70s on the list (or most of what Colt once sold), or Randalls, or Styer GBs, or H&K P9s, or the Glock 24, or ?????, is why guns currently on the list eventually won't be, not for any other reason than they are simply discontinued and a new model takes its place. And change in this industry can often happen quickly.

It would be nice if Smith, Baer, Brown, Nighthawk, Detonics, and many others kept at least one basic 1911 model on the list, so you could buy that model and have it "re-worked" after purchase. But time, innovation, and other changes may catch up with their models, production, or business and then nothing in the way of 1911 is currently available unless the new models have those changes. Look at ParaOrdnance revamping all its 1911s just 3 years ago - a total redesign like that now could knock a manufacturer's whole line-up off the list if they don't renew the old models. Except to sell off old stock, what motive would they have to keep old models on the list?

And in time, all of those companies are apt to make those changes, all save Baer and Brown who may just say "Screw California" even though CA is an extremely large buying market for firearms. Because, at what point is it not feasible or even profitable to provide firearms to California consumers?

So, the warning of buying what is currently on the list in the way of 1911s is still relevant, you just likely have more time to get the ones you want, for at least a few years - but I would watch the list closely!!

Vote and vote often!!! Fight Anti-Second Amendment Bills and fight often!!!


.

Kruzr
02-26-2007, 12:07 PM
The reason a Colt Series 70 isn't on the list is that is wasn't being made when the list came out! The repro Series 70's aren't on there because Colt decided not to submit them for testing. I would guess that they didn't want to further modify the firing pin to pass the tests since the Internet myth of a 1911 not being able to go off if dropped isn't believed by those who manufacture them.

The manufacturers determine which guns they choose to submit for testing, not the state.

xdpackin
02-26-2007, 2:34 PM
Thanks for all the good info. I'm glad to know that I'll have a few years to stock up. I'm also really glad to have found out about the "internet gun community". This state is crazy for gun laws that don't seem to help that much. I'm sure they just want to help keep people safe but legal gun sales are not the problem. If you want to keep people safe why not look at how many people die in car crashes every year. 44,000 people every single year are killed in United States car crashes. If you thought a .45 acp had good stopping power wait 'till you see what happens when you hit somebody with a F350 1-ton going 80 mph. Maybe they should try to clean up the methaphetamine problem or something that will make a real impact.

xdpackin
02-26-2007, 2:35 PM
shoot, now that I've said it we are going to be the first state in the US to require 5-point racing style seat belts and a roll cage!

DrjonesUSA
02-26-2007, 2:36 PM
As said, yes, you still have time to buy Glocks & 1911s, but I'm definitely stocking up on both!!!

threadcrapper
02-26-2007, 3:12 PM
That would be a fun sales tactic. Tell all the customers that 1911's will be banned in June 2007 and if they don't get one now, maybe three or five, they'll never get 1911 in their lifetime unless they move out of state. Heck, gunshops would make a fortune off those who don't know better. The DOJ would be wondering what the hell is going on with customers buying one 1911 per month and 4 & 5 consignment 1911's lol

CALI-gula
02-26-2007, 4:16 PM
The reason a Colt Series 70 isn't on the list is that is wasn't being made when the list came out! The repro Series 70's aren't on there because Colt decided not to submit them for testing. I would guess that they didn't want to further modify the firing pin to pass the tests since the Internet myth of a 1911 not being able to go off if dropped isn't believed by those who manufacture them.

The manufacturers determine which guns they choose to submit for testing, not the state.

No kidding - and believe me, I fought this bill hard from the very beginning, so I am very well versed in the details. I bought several NIB 70 series National Match Gold Cups within the year after Gray Davis signed this crap (among a host of other unique guns no longer available). I probably own the most number of Matebas of any single individual in all of CA.

I was not making reference to the list, I was pointing out that many models are discontinued over time, even popluar models of guns, which will take them off the list whether passed or not should the manufacturer not renew. If H&K discontinues the P7M8 as they keep threatening to do, it is sure to not be renewed on the list. So buy it now as when the sense of unavailability grows they will be harder to get by PPT in CA and/or the asking prices will sky-rocket. And whatever is on the list NOW WILL be discontinued one day, it's inevitable.

And, the repros would probably not have passed - it's not just about drop testing it is also about performing repeated without FTF and FTE or jam in any way - that's what scared Colt. Maybe they should have talked with Ed Brown or Mr. Baer to get them right.

.

CALI-gula
02-26-2007, 4:45 PM
That would be a fun sales tactic. Tell all the customers that 1911's will be banned in June 2007 and if they don't get one now, maybe three or five, they'll never get 1911 in their lifetime unless they move out of state. Heck, gunshops would make a fortune off those who don't know better. The DOJ would be wondering what the hell is going on with customers buying one 1911 per month and 4 & 5 consignment 1911's lol

That is already happening! I have heard very misinformed scare-tactics in several dealers' shops over the past year and a half since just about 10/2005 when the existence of the requirements hit the general populace but they failed to actually investigate the full details. It's not necessarily because the shops are lying to customers, it's just as we have seen with other pertinent details of law, they don't take the time to learn the laws. Look, even now some many guns shops are refusing to do anything with the OLL situation, and yet it is fully well-known by the DOJ that numerous gun shops ARE dealing in OLLs and no harm has come to them (except fits of laughing hysterically over their engorged bank account portfolio, and that they've had to higher accountants to keep track of all the profits they made since 11/2005).

Even within the past few weeks I have heard it propelled yet again, in Turner's, of one customer relaying to another customer, and both the salesmen and I corrected them on the facts of the list. These laws are often distorted like a bad story through a mitigated grapevine, usually when it's too late. Every gun owner in CA needs to start paying close attention to the bills going through Sacramento and DC, even if just to check up with the NRA ILA website or places like Calguns.net, even if just once a month to be sure of how to take action.

Eventually, those PPTs will taper off as this law finally catches up to the apathetic gun owners of CA. At one time in the mid 1980's, Colt Pythons were ubiquitous - I bought over 30 in NIB condition at prices of $300 to $450 when people were trading them in for that new fancy gun called a Glock 17. (Don't get me wrong - I like Glocks A LOT!).

But the Python is a good example. It IS still on the list, but only one type: 6" stainless. Might companies keep just 1 of their 1911s on this list in the future? That would be nice, but what if it's not the model you want? Well then it becomes a ridiculous market where people are paying up to $1600 in CA for NIB near-unfired blued Colt Pythons.

By the way, none of mine are for sale. I am waiting about another 5 years when they hit $3500 a piece for a plain-Jane Python and very few of mine are "plain Janes".

I may do the same with that unfired Randall "Curtis E. Lemay" 1911 that appears in my Avatar. Not sure, but it is already valuable - with the dictation of the list for availability of 1911s in CA in the future, the value will appreciate quite quickly.


.

-hanko
02-26-2007, 4:46 PM
Wait until some one really killed the 1911 design and come up with a nasty magazine disconnect that integrated into the gun and make the trigger worse then stock series 80 design...
It's not rocket science to get a s80 as nice a pull as a series 70 or earlier. Find a smith that knows his way around a colt, you might be surprised.

-hanko

CALI-gula
02-26-2007, 4:52 PM
It's not rocket science to get a s80 as nice a pull as a series 70 or earlier. Find a smith that knows his way around a colt, you might be surprised.

-hanko

I concur and agree. An 80 series can be built into guns as nice as any 70 series. I think the legend of the 70 Series is overemphasized and exaggerated. But the mystique remains, so be it. If it is rare, it is rare, but when customizing? There is plenty better than the 70 Series even from other manufacturers.

Parag
02-26-2007, 8:27 PM
If you want to keep people safe why not look at how many people die in car crashes every year. 44,000 people every single year are killed in United States car crashes. If you thought a .45 acp had good stopping power wait 'till you see what happens when you hit somebody with a F350 1-ton going 80 mph. Maybe they should try to clean up the methaphetamine problem or something that will make a real impact.

The heck with the 1911s. I want whatever that thing is that shoots them F350s!

-- Parag

turinreza
02-26-2007, 8:35 PM
shoot, now that I've said it we are going to be the first state in the US to require 5-point racing style seat belts and a roll cage!

No.. if you install that today for safety reasons they'll think you
are designing an assault car weapon instead of being extra careful

xdpackin
02-27-2007, 11:00 AM
I think CALI-gula is right. Stock up on stuff that you know is going to be off the list sooner than later and sit on it for a while. The problem with all these damn guns laws in the state is that you can't keep up on all the details just going to the range and shooting. You really need to check in here every month to see what the hell is going on. It is almost another hobby just checking in with all the crazy gun laws and stuff.

Kruzr
02-27-2007, 11:44 AM
I think the legend of the 70 Series is overemphasized and exaggerated.
Particularly since the Series 70 designation had absolutely nothing to do with the action or the absence of a firing pin safety. It has evolved into meaning a gun without a FP block.

CalNRA
02-27-2007, 12:30 PM
there is no such thing as a 70 series gun since the 70 series used a conic leaf-spring barrel bushing. The Springfields we know are considered pre-70 design.

DrjonesUSA
02-27-2007, 2:40 PM
Just another thought:

Living in this state, do NOT assume that time is on your side.

It is NOT.

Buy anything and everything semi-automatic that you can while you still can.

Handguns first, rifles second.

Kruzr
02-27-2007, 4:17 PM
there is no such thing as a 70 series gun since the 70 series used a conic leaf-spring barrel bushing.
Huh? This is a Series 70 Colt (1979) .........with the Series 70 "belled barrel muzzle" and original collet bushing. I changed the MSH to a flat one.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mbpo/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/colt_1.jpg

Colt makes a repro Series 70 but with a solid bushing now. That's the Series 70 that has not been submitted for testing.