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m1371
02-25-2007, 7:37 PM
Okay gents, here goes.

I am looking for input from everyone on our CalGuns OLL.

We're looking at the graphic on the lower to be the CalGuns logo, or something very very similar.
This is an example:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=511504&postcount=70
or this:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8906/californflki4.gif

The final say on that will be based on what the manufacturer says regarding the level of detail they can produce. Other design options with a lot of fine detail, such as the state seal, may not be possible to produce cleanly.

What I need from everyone is YOUR input on three things:

Model name of the lower receiver:
- CA-15
- SB-23
- CG-15

Caliber markings:
- 5.56mm
- Multi

Selector markings:
- standard selector markings
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9538/standardselectormarkingoo9.jpg
- HK style selector markings
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/369/hkselectormarkingsnq1.jpg

It's not an option to run a poll for this because there are too many permutations for the above options. So let's just keep it simple and post a response with YOUR input.

For example, my choices are:

CG-15
multi
HK markings

I'll let this run for about a week so hopefully everyone can have to opportunity to add their 0.02 worth. After a week is up, I'll tally up the count and let everyone know.

Hopefully by then we'll have info back from the manufacturer on the graphics and we can get a mock-up of what the CalGuns OLL will look like. :D

shinigami
02-25-2007, 7:39 PM
I'll go for:

CG-15
Multi ( or none?)
HK markings

Tweak338
02-25-2007, 7:41 PM
Edited.
refer to post #68 for my updated input

edsel6502
02-25-2007, 7:42 PM
SB-23
5.56mm (I likes the metric)
HK markings

ts
02-25-2007, 7:43 PM
SB-23
5.56mm (I likes the metric)
HK markings

+1
.

PanzerAce
02-25-2007, 7:44 PM
SB-23
Multi marking
HK marking

etruscan
02-25-2007, 7:46 PM
SB-23
5.56
HK markings

- and does the image have to be the logo? i mean, the site is cool and all, but i would much rather have, say, the CA seal(?) instead.

xrMike
02-25-2007, 7:58 PM
I wouldn't be interested in purchasing one unless the letters "FUDOJ" appear in the model number, in addition to the letters "SHTF" appearing in the auto selector setting.

I think the choices being offered are way too politically correct. :D

troyPhD
02-25-2007, 8:00 PM
SB-23
Multi
HK Markings

capitol
02-25-2007, 8:06 PM
SB-23
Multi
HK Markings

+1

...............................

NeoWeird
02-25-2007, 8:07 PM
Just throwing out some ideas...

serial numbers that start with FU-CALI-######.

Instead of safe have 'California' and instead of Fire have 'America' for safety markings.

Engraving on the pistol grip stub that says "If you can read this, you will run out of ammunition."



I'll post more later. Oh yes, I prefer the 5.56mm markings and I'd rather NOT have CG-15 unless it was a Calguns lower (like the Calguns logo and only available to Calguns members like a club type of thing, otherwise it should be a big middle finger to the laws here and should be as California specific as possible).

m1371
02-25-2007, 8:07 PM
I wouldn't be interested in purchasing one unless the letters "FUDOJ" appear in the model number, in addition to the letters "SHTF" appearing in the auto selector setting.

I think the choices being offered are way too politically correct. :D

Sorry you feel that way.

Here's the scoop straight from an FFL:

As a gun dealer, I wouldn't want anything in the "auto" area as it just adds a risk of the DOJ confiscating them from me and then taking forever to get them back. I would suggest staying away from anything that could infuriate the DOJ. FFLs might not want to take the risk of having something that could make them a target.

The riskiest I would want to get is have the model number be SB-23 and then just have either the calguns logo or an outline of the state with calguns at the top.

If you'll do a bit or research into what happened back in Dec '05 with a batch of OLLs that were marked "auto" you'll understand why.

Thanks for coming out though. :rolleyes:

HUTCH 7.62
02-25-2007, 8:08 PM
SB-23
5.56
HK style markings

jmlivingston
02-25-2007, 8:09 PM
Model: CG-15
Caliber: Multi
Markings: Standard, but don't really care.

krazz
02-25-2007, 8:14 PM
SB-23
5.56
Standard

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2007, 8:16 PM
Remember, these have to be safe enough not to enrage the DOJ. I will not carry them if they do. We need to keep this project classy.

If you want to enrage the DOJ, go through Tom Sawyer and have a great time. I have nothing against your freedom of speech, I just choose not to participate.

ARRRR-15
02-25-2007, 8:16 PM
SB-23
Multi
HK Markings

What about marking them as .22? Feel safer with a open well and grip with a .22 upper, and you could still put a center fire upper on it(gripless or pinned).

rips31
02-25-2007, 8:18 PM
ca-15
multi
hk

gn3hz3ku1*
02-25-2007, 8:24 PM
yea i want a OLL that shows DOJ we are not a bunch of thugs

CA-15
Multi
HK

thmpr
02-25-2007, 8:24 PM
SB-23 (just to be different from the norm of XX-15)
Multi
HK Markings

Solidsnake87
02-25-2007, 8:29 PM
CA-15
5.56 NATO
HK Markings

Serials starting with SB-23-XXXXXXXX (preferably FU-DOJ-XXXXXX)

Can we maybe see some rough logo ideas??????

I know you want us to keep it simple but obviously this is supposed to be a slap to the DOJ's face. Can we have "safe" engraved by the HK safe marking and "Felony" above the fire HK marking? Just an idea. If we can't then I'll stick with the 3 above.

CA-15 should be the only model option. Stangers who saw the receiver would not understand SB-23 or CG-15. CA-15 will get more laughs in my opinion.

Lastly, who is making this thing? What is the estimated $$$$

xrMike
02-25-2007, 8:29 PM
Here's the scoop straight from an FFL:Yep, I read that too. It's Wes's right to state his preferences as an FFL, just as it's my right to state mine as the buyer.
If you'll do a bit or research into what happened back in Dec '05 with a batch of OLLs that were marked "auto" you'll understand why."Auto" does not equal "SHTF".
Thanks for coming out though. :rolleyes:Any time. But next time, if you don't want everybody's opinion, perhaps you should say that instead of:
I am looking for input from everyone on our CalGuns OLL.

LECTRIKHED
02-25-2007, 8:30 PM
I want FUDOJ-15 somewhere on the receiver. I'd love to be able to say that I own a FUDOJ-15. You can put it in the serial number, I just want it on the receiver. It is possible. Also I like the below.

SB-23
HK Markings

thedrickel
02-25-2007, 8:34 PM
SB-23 or CA-15 w/ SB23-XXX #'s (I would like 762)
Multi
HK markings

hi_desert
02-25-2007, 8:38 PM
CA-15
Multi
HK

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2007, 8:39 PM
They will be Mega, they are 4-6 months out, I will be running the operation, this will not be a group buy, you will not have to pay anything until they are available for sale, they will be licensed by Calguns.net, $10 of the sale will go to Calguns.net, and unless things change they will be around $160 each with possible quantity discount. That $160 might pay for tax and shipping, we will see. This will not be a raping of the Calguns community, but it will also make myself and Calguns some money.

I kind of like Technical Ted's idea of a 999 limited run with SB23-xxx serial numbers. Then we can call them the CA-15.

Keep the suggestions coming.

How would the DOJ find out about what FFL'S the receivers are being shipped to?The same way they figure out everything, from looking right here.

In the end, it will be Kestrylls call. He owns the rights.

Biff...
02-25-2007, 8:39 PM
ca-15
Multi
HK Markings

xrMike
02-25-2007, 8:40 PM
If the receivers that have markings on them that wes isn't comfortable with maybe they can be shipped to FFL's that aren't sensitive to such markings.

How would the DOJ find out about what FFL'S the receivers are being shipped to?

If the MFG is not comfortable with such markings on the receivers that is one thing but if its just one of the many FFL's that will be receiving the receivers that is another thing entirely.Wow, another person who thinks it's the BUYER who should determine a product's features, rather than the manufacturer, or distributor of said product... :D

EDIT: just read Wes's description of the terms of this whole thing, and as since he and Kestryll are defining those terms, obviously they can do whatever they want. I sincerely hope you guys sell a ton of them.

GTKrockeTT
02-25-2007, 8:44 PM
can i reserve SB23-531 and SB23-126? :D

oh, and:

CA-15
Multi
HK Markings

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2007, 8:46 PM
A lot of this is up to Kestyll's decisions. Unless he tells me other wise, this will not be a group buy. I will be putting up the money and I will be handling the distribution. I will ship to any FFL you can convince to have an OLL shipped to them.

I have no intention of publically listing the name of FFLs unless they are already well know to be in the OLL game. I don't forsee this being a problem anyway because I don't plan on making this something that the DOJ is going to care about one way or another. We can be as secretive as you want to be.

PistolPete75
02-25-2007, 8:46 PM
CG-15
Multi
HK markings

I like the idea of the limited run. Can I have number 012? This is my lucky number!

Q
02-25-2007, 8:51 PM
i like axongaps design.
CG-15
MULTI OR NO CALIBER MARKING
STANDARD MARKINGS.

permanent_45
02-25-2007, 8:53 PM
Remember, these have to be safe enough not to enrage the DOJ. I will not carry them if they do. We need to keep this project classy.

If you want to enrage the DOJ, go through Tom Sawyer and have a great time. I have nothing against your freedom of speech, I just choose not to participate.

+1 for this post. I feel strongly for my right to have my guns. I also feel that we are so very far from winning this battle. Every time a new OLL is DROSed into this state we gain a little more ground. In so many ways we have already enraged the DOJ by not going around the law or taking advantage of loopholes but by complying with the laws that are handed down to us. Like a police officer would say.... i dont make the laws I just enforce them. We dont make the laws we here just follow them. I dont know about everyone else but that is my middle finger to the DOJ. Well with that said and it's just my opinion you are all entitled to yours I vote for.....

CG-15
Multi
HK

double_action
02-25-2007, 8:57 PM
SB23
Multi
HK markings

KUJO
02-25-2007, 8:58 PM
CA-15
Multi
HK Markings

I think this is a great idea. I first and only oll that I have built so far was with a MEGA lower. I liked it, I have had no problem with the lower yet. I am not very sure about the logo though. The flag would be okay but I think maybe just a scroll with the words (2nd Amendment) or spelled out, would be cool. But if they were produced with the cali flag I would still buy one. :cool:

gn3hz3ku1*
02-25-2007, 8:58 PM
well shoot can i get number 0421 or 0132? i put that 0 there in hopes we can forget the limited edition run and just get as many as we can afford into the state.

can we have a US flag on top of the CA one? or a US flag on the fire position?

LECTRIKHED
02-25-2007, 8:59 PM
I respect those who are making them but I won't be purchasing one. I liked this idea at first but this lower is too tame. My plans are now to have a custom one made with a graphic of a giant middle finger and california in the background, and the model will be FUDOJ-15. Does anyone have any reccomendations of who can make this.

PS. If the DOJ wants to get you, they will. It doesn't matter what it says on the lower.

gn3hz3ku1*
02-25-2007, 9:01 PM
I respect those who are making them but I won't be purchasing one. I liked this idea at first but this lower is too tame. My plans are now to have a custom one made with a graphic of a giant middle finger and california in the background, and the model will be FUDOJ-15. Does anyone have any reccomendations of who can make this.

PS. If the DOJ wants to get you, they will. It doesn't matter what it says on the lower.

ahah well maybe ill order one of urs too? can we get OBL hunter engraved on it too?

Q
02-25-2007, 9:01 PM
Which one ? he came up with several.


i like the one in the link in the first post.

Kestryll
02-25-2007, 9:05 PM
OK so what your saying is unless Kestyll authorizes it Mega will not ship directly to other FFL's. I would not have a problem paying in advance to you to be able to have mega ship directly.

I think what he is saying and what I agree with is that the final say I have is over what markings will be on it. I am not inclined to have a lower with the Calguns logo, an image I both own and am responsible for, have things like FUDOJ and such. This is not the attention we want nor the image we need to be projecting.

The whole OLL thing has been, in my eyes at least, not about sticking it to 'the Man' or giving the DOJ the finger. It has been about using the law to restore our rights by showing how futile and senseless the AWB is. It is also about returning to the market a rifle that was unfairly removed. I do not want to see the work that has been done turned in to just an ego boost for everyone, it goes way beyond just us.

As far as the FFL's and distibution I am deferring to Wes' experience and knowledge on those. I'd just as soon not tell him how to do business as not telling the pilot how to fly the plane.

All that said I kinda like this setup.
CG-15 or CA-15
5.56
HK style markings
SB23 serial prefix

As long as it's not over the top I'm curious to see what gets the most votes and what everyone wants. Although one thing to keep in mind is what the Manufacturer says they can do, that is the real final say.

Mr.RoDiN
02-25-2007, 9:10 PM
My input

SB-23
5.56
HK style markings
Just wanted to add one more thing. Maybe you can put in writing on the lower "California legal". I don't know if that would help with a LEO situation.

toolman9000
02-25-2007, 9:12 PM
All that said I kinda like this setup.
CG-15 or CA-15
5.56
HK style markings
SB23 serial prefix


YES! That would work great... but here is what would be perfect for me:

CA-15
MULTI
HK Style Markings
SB23 serial number prefix

damon1272
02-25-2007, 9:17 PM
SB-23
Multi
HK Markings


+2, thats how many I will order:D

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2007, 9:19 PM
I respect those who are making them but I won't be purchasing one. I liked this idea at first but this lower is too tame. My plans are now to have a custom one made with a graphic of a giant middle finger and california in the background, and the model will be FUDOJ-15. Does anyone have any reccomendations of who can make this.

PS. If the DOJ wants to get you, they will. It doesn't matter what it says on the lower.

Here, I started a new thread for you. Please don't take this thread off topic.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=513958#post513958

LECTRIKHED
02-25-2007, 9:24 PM
Mega is a good choice. I'm pleased with my Mega Gator.

iridesportbikes
02-25-2007, 9:25 PM
SB-23

Multi - CAL

HK Marking

tenpercentfirearms
02-25-2007, 9:27 PM
Will you OK Mega to ship to individual FFL's ?At this point, I do not know. It will kind of depend on Mega and it will kind of depend on if we do a specific serial number option. I doubt Mega would be real excited to sort out a ton of orders and ship them individually to numerous FFLs. I suspect the answer will be no.

Beetle Bailey
02-25-2007, 9:32 PM
CA-15
Multi marking
HK style marking

Also, put me down for the serial number marking prefix "SB 23" as that would seem appropriate.

Sydwaiz
02-25-2007, 9:40 PM
CG-15
multi
HK markings

I vote for CG-15 so it retains some of it's heritage in it's name.

We should also try to see what just an outline of the bear would look like. That would be the easiest to program and engrave IMO.

goldfinger
02-25-2007, 10:03 PM
for me +1

SB-23
Multi marking
HK marking

762cavalier
02-25-2007, 10:08 PM
CG-15
Multi
HK markings- although I too would like to see SHTF in the 0 degree(fire position)

I like the CA flag especially with the bear.;)

Franksremote
02-25-2007, 10:13 PM
Like the bear...

bobothebigdog
02-25-2007, 10:49 PM
CA-15
5.56
Standard Markings

Matt C
02-25-2007, 11:01 PM
CG-15
Multi
HK markings

Edited to add: I'd like to reserve SN 556 or 223 if possible

6172crew
02-25-2007, 11:19 PM
CG-15
Multi
HK markings
+ another vote

SB-23 6172 reserved.;)

dicast
02-25-2007, 11:20 PM
sb-23
multi
HK

JPN6336
02-25-2007, 11:58 PM
Model: CA-15
Serial: SB23-XXX (I'd like to reserve 013 if possible)
Caliber: Multi
HK Markings

Rugerdaddy
02-25-2007, 11:59 PM
CA-15
5.56
HK style markings
SB23 serial prefix

Great stuff. I'm looking forward to this.:)

Tweak338
02-26-2007, 12:07 AM
alright since SB-23 makes such a great Serial# Prefix..

would like a Calguns logo. but if kest isnt too keen on it
the bear logo would be second best


CA-15
Multi Caliber (i want to do a 9mm build on it)
HK markings
SB23 serial# prefix

SB23-338 Reserved!

AfricanHunter
02-26-2007, 12:08 AM
CA-15
Multi
HK Stlye

m1371
02-26-2007, 12:22 AM
The tally so far.....

HK style selector markings are way more popular than the standard safe/fire selector markings.

For the caliber markings, "multi" is beating out 5.56mm by about a 3 to 1 ratio.

The model designation is kinda up in the air so far, especially with the idea of a SB23 serial # prefix.

And back to the voting.....

hoffmang
02-26-2007, 12:33 AM
CA-15 with the SB-23-XXX serial!
Multi
Standard but don't care that much

-Gene

bwiese
02-26-2007, 12:50 AM
How about a JW Harrott commemorative model?

whatdyisit
02-26-2007, 4:22 AM
CA-15 with SB-23-XXX
Multi
HK Markings

Japedo
02-26-2007, 4:57 AM
Does'nt really matter to me, I'll probable buy at least 2 to support the 'cause

rawb
02-26-2007, 5:02 AM
CA-15 with SB-23-XXX
Multi
HK Markings

+1...

tenpercentfirearms
02-26-2007, 5:29 AM
The serial numbers won't be reserved at this point. A system for reserving will be set up closer to sale time.

WokMaster1
02-26-2007, 6:59 AM
CG-15
Multi
HK

megavolt121
02-26-2007, 7:53 AM
HK Markings
Merrilees-15
SB-23XXX serial

Come on guys, we should pay our respects to the one DOJ individual that has put so much effort into helping us acquire OLLs.

thefurball
02-26-2007, 8:01 AM
SB-23
Multi
HK

Bimmerworld
02-26-2007, 8:04 AM
CA-15 with SB-23-XXX

Multi

HK Markings

JesseXXX
02-26-2007, 8:14 AM
I like CA-15, Multi and the HK set up.... or, for selection, Safe/Fun... or Rock & Roll (Rock being safe, roll being fire)...?

paradox
02-26-2007, 8:34 AM
Here’s my $0.02

Logo: I’d be happy with
* Outline of California, either bare or overlaid with CALGUNS.NET or the Bear
* CalGuns logo
* The state flag

Serial:
I vote for CALI-xxxx or perhaps CA-xxxx

Caliber:
Multi

Selector Markings:
This is California, we should have something distinctively Californian. Instead of HK glyphs or SAFE and FIRE, I think we should have CHILL and DUDE! :D

What would be really cool is if we could get the rifle portion of SB23 printed on the right side, forward of the magazine release button. That way we can easily show LEOs the law regarding our rifle :D

Lastly, since this is Mega, can we get the waffle pattern on the front of the magwell?

Ravenslair
02-26-2007, 8:44 AM
OLL-15
Multi
HK

SigShooter
02-26-2007, 9:10 AM
I am not inclined to have a lower with the Calguns logo, an image I both own and am responsible for, have things like FUDOJ and such. This is not the attention we want nor the image we need to be projecting.

The whole OLL thing has been, in my eyes at least, not about sticking it to 'the Man' or giving the DOJ the finger. It has been about using the law to restore our rights by showing how futile and senseless the AWB is. It is also about returning to the market a rifle that was unfairly removed. I do not want to see the work that has been done turned in to just an ego boost for everyone, it goes way beyond just us.


BIG +1

Personally I want one just to proudly display that I am fighting for the return of my full 2A rights. So far we have been inching closer to that win by using our brains and civility, there is no need for us to sink to the same level as the CA-DOJFD. I look at this as an opportunity to have a lower that could start some decent 2A conversations at the range, educating those not in-the-know (we'll call them Zumbonians) and maybe get one more person infected with BRD. I think degrading the DOJ on the receiver itself would get a few laughs and have people walking away thinking "he's gonna get popped for that one."

Now back to the regularly scheduled thread...

My Vote:
CA-15 (w/SB23-xxxx serial)
MULTI
Standard markings

ETA: Even though at $160, it is a bit pricey, knowing that some of the money will go to CG.net makes it well worth it!

pidooma
02-26-2007, 9:43 AM
CG-15
Multi
Standard markings
SB23- serial number prefix

SunriseF150
02-26-2007, 9:53 AM
CA-15
Multi
HK
SB-23 serial numbers

As far as logos/names. If we have the CALGUNS name on it I think it would look better as "CALGUNS" rather than "CALGUNS.NET". I can't see the linked image in the first post so I can't give an input on it. I do like the idea of the CA state outline, and the state seal logo (if engraving that is possible), and the state flag logo so either of those 3 would work.

Fjold
02-26-2007, 9:59 AM
I like most of the options but I would like to see:

Calguns-15 (written out instead of abbreviated CG or CA)
Multi
"Fire" and "Safe"

Can'thavenuthingood
02-26-2007, 10:11 AM
I like the CA-15 in a .308, outline of Bear.
Serial number prefix and markings not an issue here.

Also think it ought to be divorced from CALGUNS as its for everyone not just members of this board.

Vick

NoTime2Shoot
02-26-2007, 10:19 AM
CA-15
MULTI
HK Style Marking for safe SHTF for fire.
SB23 serial number prefix

scewper
02-26-2007, 10:20 AM
CA-15
Multi
SB-23-serial
standard

AxonGap
02-26-2007, 10:33 AM
2859

For all of those who didn’t see the “Ca Bear" design I posted on the other thread (also the link at the beginning of this thread), here’s a revised mockup w/ some popular ideas. :D

Tenpercent, PM me w/ more info.

MustangO4
02-26-2007, 10:43 AM
Like that ^

HK style markings

Biff...
02-26-2007, 10:45 AM
2859

For all of those who didn’t see the “Ca Bear" design I posted on the other thread (also the link at the beginning of this thread), here’s a revised mockup w/ some popular ideas. :D

Tenpercent, PM me w/ more info.



Very nice :)

tiger222
02-26-2007, 10:48 AM
SB23 serial ~reserve 222 please :)

HK markings
Bear is good.
5.56 NATO / 9mm NATO

thanks!

Clodbuster
02-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Might actually buy an OLL if it had these:

[Calguns logo w/ "The Right of the People to Bear Arms Will Not Be Infringed" scrolled somewhere]

CALIFORNIA LEGAL RIFLE

No caliber markings

HK markings on the selector

If I end up in court, I would like any one of the 58 DAs to read off the charge that I was arrested for possesing a AR model "California Legal Rifle" in front of the jury...any jury that speaks and understands simple English...

Clod

bonjing
02-26-2007, 11:58 AM
I'm in for at least 1

CG-15
muliti or no caliber designation
HK style markings

Ten Rounder
02-26-2007, 12:50 PM
OK 1, just when and how much?

bonjing
02-26-2007, 12:59 PM
2859

For all of those who didn’t see the “Ca Bear" design I posted on the other thread (also the link at the beginning of this thread), here’s a revised mockup w/ some popular ideas. :D

Tenpercent, PM me w/ more info.

i like the detail in the bear design, but I like the HK style markings a little better.

edited for spelling

DrjonesUSA
02-26-2007, 1:38 PM
For example, my choices are:

CG-15
multi
HK markings




I have the same preferences as quoted above.

I do NOT, under ANY circumstances, want the communist CA flag as a logo, however!

Put the US flag or even the Confederate, but not the CA flag!

PLINK
02-26-2007, 1:53 PM
No logo just CALGUNS.NET

CA-15
Cal. Multi
OLLxxxx serial number

Don't care on selector markings.

rorschach
02-26-2007, 2:28 PM
No flag
5.56mm
HK pictograms
Ser# SB23-xxxxx or OLLxxxxx

AudiA
02-26-2007, 2:32 PM
CG-15
Multi
HK markings

paradox
02-26-2007, 2:33 PM
I do NOT, under ANY circumstances, want the communist CA flag as a logo, however!

Come on, the star was stolen from Texas, then there is a big *** bear and "California Republic". What's not to like? Think back to the roots of this state, which the flag represents, the Cali-Flag fits right in with our fight.

proraptor
02-26-2007, 2:44 PM
I like the CA-15, HK markings, and dont really want a huge flag on the side of my gun...

JesseXXX
02-26-2007, 3:26 PM
What about the actual second ammendment engraved...?

Cali-V
02-26-2007, 3:32 PM
I kinda like:

Model: . . . C/AR-15
Cal: . . . . Multi
Markings:. . HK
Serial #:. . SB-23xxxx

shark92651
02-26-2007, 3:45 PM
+1 on it saying "California Legal" somewhere on it.

CA-15
5.56mm
Standard (not a fan of the HK markings)

SirMikeAlot
02-26-2007, 3:49 PM
CA-15
SB23-XXX (I'd like to reserve 007 if possible) :cool:
Multi
HK Markings


Waffle pattern on the front of the magwell would be kinda cool also. ;)

Bear logo, state logo, calguns logo . . . all good. How about a Punisher logo kinda like Spike's (engraved of course)?

legalweasel
02-26-2007, 3:59 PM
+1 on it saying "California Legal" somewhere on it.

CA-15
Multi
Standard

|-007-|
02-26-2007, 4:08 PM
CA-15
SB23-XXX (I'd like to reserve 007 if possible) :cool:
Multi
HK Markings


Waffle pattern on the front of the magwell would be kinda cool also. ;)

Bear logo, state logo, calguns logo . . . all good. How about a Punisher logo kinda like Spike's (engraved of course)?

I just got superjacked out of 007....oh well, snooze you lose. I presume serial numbers can only be numbers, so I reserve 1985. If that's not possible, I want 7 if nobody else has it. If nobody gets to reserve numbers, then never mind. Man, I wanted 007 pretty badly...*sigh*

SB23
Multi
HK Markings (I like the silly selector settings more, but that's not an option)

I knew I was waiting on buying another OLL for some reason. This'll be awesome.

Question: Are you looking at Mega to manufacture these?

Nefarious
02-26-2007, 4:13 PM
I just got superjacked out of 007....oh well, snooze you lose. I presume serial numbers can only be numbers, so I reserve 1985. If that's not possible, I want 7 if nobody else has it. If nobody gets to reserve numbers, then never mind. Man, I wanted 007 pretty badly...*sigh*

SB23
Multi
HK Markings (I like the silly selector settings more, but that's not an option)

I knew I was waiting on buying another OLL for some reason. This'll be awesome.

Question: Are you looking at Mega to manufacture these?

no you didnt. You cannot "reserve" a serial right now. That option will be made available later per Wes

|-007-|
02-26-2007, 4:16 PM
no you didnt. You cannot "reserve" a serial right now. That option will be made available later per Wes

Alright, I'll sit tight.

Pvt. Cowboy
02-26-2007, 4:19 PM
Here's my unlisted choices:

Logo (either of these will do):

1. California flag bear with a sombrero on it's head.
2. The 'Running Immigrants' highway sign: http://bbsnews.net/bbsn_photos/topics/Timeless_Events/caution_migrants_prohibido.jpg

Name: "CAL-15" (Better than 'CA-15' because of the nod of respect to the CAR-15)
Markings: Multi-caliber
Switch positions: Smiley face/Un-smiley face (Fire/Safe) :D / :(

tenpercentfirearms
02-26-2007, 4:42 PM
Some of these make me laugh.

For a logo what about just in block letters.

CALGUNS.NET
CALIFORNIA LEGAL

I am surprised you guys don't want a bear and a star on the side of your receiver. I like our CA bear even if we are a socialist state.

What about just an outline of CA and above it CALGUNS.NET and below it CALIFORNIA LEGAL or OFF LIST LOWER

All of this might be moot if we can simply get the calguns logo on it. Which has the CA flag on it, but lets face it, you live here, take some ownership of your state. I choose just to own the good parts. :D

Fjold
02-26-2007, 4:45 PM
I changed my mind. The picture above with the "Califonia Legal Offlist Lower" would be great.

ARRRR-15
02-26-2007, 4:47 PM
2859

For all of those who didn’t see the “Ca Bear" design I posted on the other thread (also the link at the beginning of this thread), here’s a revised mockup w/ some popular ideas. :D

Tenpercent, PM me w/ more info.

What about coloring in the bear and lettering to make it stand out more. I know most don't like flashy AR's, but this will be a one in a kind and with the attention we could point out OLL's to other Californians.

Pvt. Cowboy
02-26-2007, 5:20 PM
http://i9.tinypic.com/437at21.jpg

JesseXXX
02-26-2007, 5:55 PM
Lol.....

gmcem50
02-26-2007, 6:02 PM
Here’s my $0.02

Logo: I’d be happy with
* Outline of California, either bare or overlaid with CALGUNS.NET or the Bear
* CalGuns logo
* The state flag

Serial:
I vote for CALI-xxxx or perhaps CA-xxxx

Caliber:
Multi

Selector Markings:
This is California, we should have something distinctively Californian. Instead of HK glyphs or SAFE and FIRE, I think we should have CHILL and DUDE! :D

What would be really cool is if we could get the rifle portion of SB23 printed on the right side, forward of the magazine release button. That way we can easily show LEOs the law regarding our rifle :D

Lastly, since this is Mega, can we get the waffle pattern on the front of the magwell?

+1 to everything paradox posted, or alternatively I vote for

Model - CA-15, or CALI-15
Caliber - MULTI
Serial # - SB23-XXXX
Selector - standard

I know I am outnumbered something like 100 to 1 on this but I REALLY do not like the HK selector markings for this lower, and here's why: This is an American rifle. It bugs me to pay homage to a European manufacturer, especially since Europe has even more onerous gun control than we do. Yes, the HK markings look cool, but so what. I want my American guns to look like American guns, not European wannabees. Just my $.02.

Having said that, I'll still buy whatever the final version is.:D

Sydwaiz
02-26-2007, 7:02 PM
PARA ESPANOL, IMPRIMA DOS

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! I love it! SAFE and FIRE should be Seguro Y Peligro!
I'd buy one!

Beetle Bailey
02-26-2007, 7:03 PM
I didn't know we were voting for logos as well. I for one would definately like the California bear on the lower. To me, this is about making a statement about an experience that is unique to the California gun owner: the OLL ordeal and the silly law that spawned it.

P.S. If it's gonna be a Mega, I want the waffle pattern as well 8^) .

Clodbuster
02-26-2007, 7:22 PM
Since we're all submitting designs, here is mine.
I've included the obligatory warning label that goes on the right side of the receiver :D

Clod

jjperl
02-26-2007, 7:34 PM
sb-23
5.56mm
HK

tcp
02-26-2007, 10:22 PM
CA-15
5.56
standard

calguns logo or bear, either one would make it just for us.

DrjonesUSA
02-27-2007, 7:42 AM
http://i9.tinypic.com/437at21.jpg



So are those illegals crossing the border, or oppressed people like us fleeing into Nevada?

dotchoy
02-27-2007, 7:51 AM
SB-23
5.56mm
HK Style

AxonGap
02-27-2007, 8:57 AM
Seems we have a battle of the threads going on, we need to lock one of them to kill the confusion. Heres the update of the Ca Bear w/ HK "Safe" and "Fire" icons I posted on the alternate custom OLL thread.

2877

SunriseF150
02-27-2007, 8:59 AM
I'm also with having the 2nd Ammendment engraved into it. What about on the right side of the magwell?

As for the logo, I think if this is going to be a CA thing, then the logo be CA related. I personally like the outline of the state better. But the Bear & Star would work also.

And I think CALGUNS would look better than CALGUNS.NET

I like the HK markings (as I voted on them). But I do see the point brought up about this beign an American design not European. I'm down with either markings, HK or Standard. I already have 2 POF's with HK markings.

JesseXXX
02-27-2007, 9:53 AM
I agree with Mischief.... the font needs to be "finer"....

Pvt. Cowboy
02-27-2007, 10:22 AM
So are those illegals crossing the border, or oppressed people like us fleeing into Nevada?

I have two answers for you. Please choose the one you find intellectually suitable:

1. Like a Rorschach test, it's all about what you see in it.

2. They're illegal aliens copied directly from the state of California's CALTRANS-erected signs near the CA/Mexico border. You make a good point, though. If there was enough room on that lower to show both migrating populations (Illegals entering California at the same time decent people are fleeing this state in record numbers), I'd have done so. Sadly, the canvas of the slab-side AR-15 leaves little room for artistic expression.

Because I like to think of myself as an honest fellow, I personally prefer answer #2. However, I submit both answers for your approval based on the grounds that smartass left-wing 'artists' aren't required to explain themselves when many their creations are deliberately intended to annoy their political counterparts (e.g.: Crucifixes immersed in urine, Che Guevara shirts, anti-war protest banners, depictions of conservative members of government as rotting corpses, etc.). Those people are free to play their immature little games, so why not me? I'm sure you completely agree.

In contrast to left-wing artists of that type, I'd like to state unequivocally that my intention wasn't to suggest that this lower receiver was to be built into a rifle designed to murder illegal immigrants, or any such hostile sentiment. It was only to suggest the absurdity of the state that today's Californians find themselves immersed in.

Ergo, it's 'art'. :D

m1371
02-27-2007, 10:33 AM
-> count marker <-

paradox
02-27-2007, 11:39 AM
In my first post, I didn't vote on the name:

+1 on "California Legal" :D

AxonGap
02-27-2007, 12:08 PM
Here's another option. Kinda has a Rock River feel to it. You get the picture.;)

2879

BTW, I hope nobody takes this one seriously.:D

Nefarious
02-27-2007, 12:15 PM
Here's another option. Kinda has a Rock River feel to it.;)

2879

logo looks too cluttered - IMO

xrMike
02-27-2007, 12:30 PM
Here's another option. Kinda has a Rock River feel to it.;)DOJ BAIT -- Aaaaaaaak! That would offend the delicate sensibilities of too many people... How dare you attempt to do that! You will be assimilated! ;)

boogak
02-27-2007, 4:33 PM
ca-15
multi
hk style

PistolPete75
02-27-2007, 4:38 PM
Seems we have a battle of the threads going on, we need to lock one of them to kill the confusion. Heres the update of the Ca Bear w/ HK "Safe" and "Fire" icons I posted on the alternate custom OLL thread.

2877

i really, really like this!

wheelgunner
02-27-2007, 5:56 PM
I like the CalGuns first choice logo.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=511504&postcount=70

However with the Safe and Fire in the correct locations ;-)


*With original OFFLIST-15 or OLL-15.

*Multi Caliber

*HK Safe/Fire

If this is really going to be made I would like to be placed on the list and I'll gladly up front right now.

Thanks

Dan

PIRATE14
02-27-2007, 7:03 PM
With the way things are going now........these won't see the light of day.....manufactures can't keep up with orders now......

But if they do count me in for a DOZ.........I gotta break the century mark for registered weapons in the state........

RossRinSD
02-27-2007, 8:43 PM
s/f markings - standard
caliber - multi
s/n - sb23-xxxx
logo - calguns somewhere and the state outline or the bear. California legal somewhere...

But in reality I'm in for one no matter what we decide. Who do I send my money to???

Lets keep it simple and just pick something...

tenpercentfirearms
02-27-2007, 9:01 PM
Guys, these babies are not going to be ready for 4-6 months. We have plenty of time.

Don't worry about money. This isn't going to be a group buy. These are going to be lowers for sale on a first come, first served basis when they are in stock and ready to ship.

Right now we are just weeding out our options on what we want them to look like and what Mega can do to make it work.

You can get excited if you want, but just remember, it is going to be a while.

bonjing
02-27-2007, 9:52 PM
So 10% does this mean your taking preorders now :D:cool: i got first :p

Rugerdaddy
02-27-2007, 10:34 PM
Guys, these babies are not going to be ready for 4-6 months.

You can get excited if you want, but just remember, it is going to be a while.

Unacceptable. You got us excited, now you'd better deliver the goods........soon. :rolleyes:

RossRinSD
02-27-2007, 10:39 PM
So 10% does this mean your taking preorders now

yeah, I couldn't find them on the website. Now I remember what you said about not offering the MM grip for presale...

NorCalRifleman
02-28-2007, 3:10 AM
How about something like this . . .

2892

Forgive the crude cut-and-paste job, use your imagination.

Oh, and

CA-15
No caliber markings or MULTI (these things are all about freedom, right?)
FIRE and SAFE on the selector (no Eurotrash)
SB-23-xxxx

tenpercentfirearms
02-28-2007, 5:54 AM
Again, there is no pre-sale. There is no waiting list. There is nothing. If you send me an e-mail asking to be on the waiting list or offering to give me a down payment, you will be flagged and moved to the back of the line that doesn't exist!!! :p

When I say it is going to be 4-6 months, I don't mean I want it to take 4-6 months. The manufacturer is going to take 4-6 months. It is going to be a while.

I have some other lowers I am working on that might be here sooner to satisfy your calguns addiction. We will see.

dhl
02-28-2007, 3:38 PM
SBS-223-xxx
ALL CALIBER
ALL AMERICAN

shamus
02-28-2007, 4:38 PM
I vote for
SB-23
Multi marking
HK marking

USMC_2651_E5
02-28-2007, 6:19 PM
+1 on it saying "California Legal" somewhere on it.

CA-15
Multi
Standard

rassd71
02-28-2007, 9:02 PM
Personally I really like the looks of this design...

Here's an update featuring the HK Fire & Safety icons.

2876

However would it be possible to move the Calguns.net above the OLL text and to place the california legal in the place of the CALGUNS?

I personally vote for:

CA-15
multi
HK markings
SB-23 XXXX serial number

and definitely +1 for having California legal on the lower

And if possible, the 2nd on the right hand side, maybe with the US flag?

roor1200
02-28-2007, 11:40 PM
heres my $.05,

CA-15-0000

5.56mm

+2 would like to have LEGAL/FELONY like on another post. i know it should be "classy" but.....nvm. so standard it its for me since this isnt a hk.:D

also adding california legal on it would be +1.:D

DrjonesUSA
03-01-2007, 6:43 AM
Is anyone else just crapping themselves laughing thinking about an AR-15 lower that says "CALIFORNIA LEGAL" right on the side of it??

God, picture a suspicious cop's reaction to THAT!

"No sir, the laws have changed recently....see, it says "CA LEGAL" right there on the receiver which is the firearm by law!"

Hahahahaha!

:D :D :D

DrjonesUSA
03-01-2007, 6:44 AM
Seems to me that the HK markings might be winning the most votes.


Yesssssssssss!!! :D

SunriseF150
03-01-2007, 7:57 AM
Yeah I'm not too fond of having "cali legal" on it. Sounds kinda stupid.

NorCalRifleman
03-01-2007, 9:03 AM
It occurred to me that with this thing possibly being here within several months and my being deployed to Iraq, there is a very real possibility I may not be home in time to grab one, considering they will likely sell out in, say, about 12.7 seconds. Soooo, I'd really like to know how I might be able to reserve one when the time comes, even if I have to pay in advance to put it on hold. I know orders aren't being taken, I just want to be on top of things. Wouldn't want to miss something like this just when I'm going to be moving back to California! This'll be my first AR (thank you hostile fire pay, hehe) and it'll definitely be a special one.

Thanks.

Biff...
03-01-2007, 9:17 AM
Okay enough chat, lets do this. Hk markings, Bear, SB for serial #. Lets do this.

Rumpled
03-01-2007, 9:22 AM
I'd prefer a CA state logo, but the bear fits the space much better.
CA15 seems to fit Ca better than SB23, which even few in CA might know.

So, my vote would be
Bear with Calguns below,
Multi Caliber of 5.56,
Safe, Fire and SHTF markings

tenpercentfirearms
03-01-2007, 9:34 AM
If you can find a computer with Internet and you have a credit card, you will be able to order one in Iraq. It can be held for you until you safely return. e-mail if you have any other questions about that.

Franksremote
03-01-2007, 9:46 AM
If you can find a computer with Internet and you have a credit card, you will be able to order one in Iraq. It can be held for you until you safely return. e-mail if you have any other questions about that.

Make it 2 for me and I'll hold one for him until he returns at cost if he's worried about finding a pc while overseas. Let me know before you leave.

Biff...
03-01-2007, 10:30 AM
It occurred to me that with this thing possibly being here within several months and my being deployed to Iraq, there is a very real possibility I may not be home in time to grab one, considering they will likely sell out in, say, about 12.7 seconds. Soooo, I'd really like to know how I might be able to reserve one when the time comes, even if I have to pay in advance to put it on hold. I know orders aren't being taken, I just want to be on top of things. Wouldn't want to miss something like this just when I'm going to be moving back to California! This'll be my first AR (thank you hostile fire pay, hehe) and it'll definitely be a special one.

Thanks.


How about we all chip in and buy one for our resident GI as a thank you for serving our country. I'll donate the first $10

NorCalRifleman
03-01-2007, 10:31 AM
Make it 2 for me and I'll hold one for him until he returns at cost if he's worried about finding a pc while overseas. Let me know before you leave.

How about we all chip in and buy one for our resident GI as a thank you for serving our country. I'll donate the first $10

Now that's what I call "supporting your troops".

Franksremote
03-01-2007, 10:47 AM
Now that's what I call "supporting your troops".

Least I can do. Keep your head down, I don't need two ;)

krazek
03-01-2007, 1:24 PM
Is anyone else just crapping themselves laughing thinking about an AR-15 lower that says "CALIFORNIA LEGAL" right on the side of it??

God, picture a suspicious cop's reaction to THAT!

"No sir, the laws have changed recently....see, it says "CA LEGAL" right there on the receiver which is the firearm by law!"

Hahahahaha!

:D :D :D

that would be hilarious

sthornwall
03-01-2007, 3:29 PM
CG-15
Multi
Standard markings
SB23- serial number prefix

__+1

shark92651
03-01-2007, 4:04 PM
Is anyone else just crapping themselves laughing thinking about an AR-15 lower that says "CALIFORNIA LEGAL" right on the side of it??

God, picture a suspicious cop's reaction to THAT!

"No sir, the laws have changed recently....see, it says "CA LEGAL" right there on the receiver which is the firearm by law!"

Hahahahaha!

:D :D :D


Well when I was shipping in my SU-16 I was actually interested in the SU-16B version and the guys at the gun shop kept staring at it and saying "well, this on over here the SU-16CA says it is for California so I don't think we can get that other one"... I did a little more research and decided the CA model was the better one anyway - but my point it never underestimate how easily someone will be swayed by it saying "California Legal" on it :D

proraptor
03-02-2007, 11:45 AM
I think it would be awesome to get them done with california legal on the side.....I think it would be a great help

Clodbuster
03-02-2007, 1:48 PM
Certainly beats trying to explain to a suspicious cop that a receiver marked CG-15 isn't an AR-15 because of of some court case he'd never heard of. Then again you can throw a bunch of paper work at the guy saying it's CA legal and spend an hour trying to educate the officer (if he's got free time).
Anything that gets LE to think before seizing a rifle that will probably take months to get back is fine in my book. If the cop has a good laugh about it afterwards, that is fine too.

Clod

Is anyone else just crapping themselves laughing thinking about an AR-15 lower that says "CALIFORNIA LEGAL" right on the side of it??

God, picture a suspicious cop's reaction to THAT!

"No sir, the laws have changed recently....see, it says "CA LEGAL" right there on the receiver which is the firearm by law!"

Hahahahaha!

:D :D :D

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 2:07 PM
Do you think someone would get a "California Legal" lower and then build it up as an assault weapon and claim it was legal? Oh well if they do.

6172crew
03-02-2007, 2:34 PM
Do you think someone would get a "California Legal" lower and then build it up as an assault weapon and claim it was legal? Oh well if they do.

I thought we told you to start working on these lowers, get back to your cage and dont come back without a CA legal lower.

































:D

Clodbuster
03-02-2007, 6:25 PM
I thought these lowers are only for Calgun members... All law abiding and outstanding residents of California who could/would do no wrong :D


Clod

Do you think someone would get a "California Legal" lower and then build it up as an assault weapon and claim it was legal? Oh well if they do.

trouble
03-02-2007, 8:39 PM
SB23-
Multi Cal
Standard markings (non-HK)
I wouldn't mind a bear logo on there someplace too

And while we're at it, would it be possible to modify these to make the bullet button more integrated (built-in internal) or will these just be standard lowers just stamped to our specs?

tenpercentfirearms
03-02-2007, 8:43 PM
And while we're at it, would it be possible to modify these to make the bullet button more integrated (built-in internal) or will these just be standard lowers just stamped to our specs?
Definitely not. The Bullet Button isn't the only product for CA compliance out there. The Bullet Button works just fine as it is. So does the MonsterMan Grip and U15. Plus, I don't think Mega would do it, nor would it be cost effective.

wheelgunner
03-03-2007, 6:10 AM
I thought we told you to start working on these lowers, get back to your cage and dont come back without a CA legal lower.
:D

+1...

tenpercentfirearms
03-05-2007, 1:08 PM
Would a calguns laser engraved lower tide you guys over for the next 4-6 months? No frills. Just the calguns logo engraved on the other side of a Spike's Tactical standard lower? Let me know.

JPN6336
03-05-2007, 1:43 PM
Would a calguns laser engraved lower tide you guys over for the next 4-6 months? No frills. Just the calguns logo engraved on the other side of a Spike's Tactical standard lower? Let me know.

I'd rather wait personally.

GTKrockeTT
03-05-2007, 2:09 PM
i'd rather wait as well.

Sydwaiz
03-05-2007, 2:13 PM
How much? :D But yeah, I'd wait too.

Cali-V
03-05-2007, 2:34 PM
Let us do it right the 1st Time...

Have you tried David over @ Sun Devil...

SLYoteBoy
03-05-2007, 5:38 PM
FDR-15 maybe?
HSR-15?

If not.

CG-15
Standard
Multi

Biff...
03-05-2007, 6:58 PM
Would a calguns laser engraved lower tide you guys over for the next 4-6 months? No frills. Just the calguns logo engraved on the other side of a Spike's Tactical standard lower? Let me know.

I'll wait for this to lower to come about.

highspeed11
03-05-2007, 8:14 PM
Is this lower going to be available in CA? :confused:

RossRinSD
03-05-2007, 8:18 PM
Is this lower going to be available in CA? :confused:

umm, not without a MM grip, bullet button, or U15. :D

DrjonesUSA
03-05-2007, 9:21 PM
but my point it never underestimate how easily someone will be swayed by it saying "California Legal" on it :D


Sooooo......who's down for a run of "CA-LEGAL" miniguns?????

:D :D :D

krazek
03-05-2007, 10:28 PM
Not sure if this was mentioned, but I think they should be called the FREEDOM-15

i think that'd be kinda cool

whatdyisit
03-05-2007, 10:55 PM
Would a calguns laser engraved lower tide you guys over for the next 4-6 months? No frills. Just the calguns logo engraved on the other side of a Spike's Tactical standard lower? Let me know.

I would probably buy one of the Spike's Tacticals if they were made. I dont have a problem waiting for the real deal though.

SunriseF150
03-06-2007, 9:23 AM
I'd wait for the final one.


I do like the FREEDOM-15 model #. Has a nice ring to it.

xenophobe
03-06-2007, 9:57 AM
Almost 200 posts and still no consensus on design?

Wow... guess there needs to be a couple hundred more posts to completely figure this out... http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif

Cali-V
03-06-2007, 10:01 AM
Almost 200 posts and still no consensus on design?

Wow... guess there needs to be a couple hundred more posts to completely figure this out... http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif


How about setting this up as a poll...

m1371
03-06-2007, 10:18 AM
How about setting this up as a poll...

A poll will only let you have 10 choices. For the options I listed in the first post of the thread, there are 12 possible permutations.

I've been tallying up what every one has said (making little tic marks on a sheet of paper) and I think Wes has a good idea of what seems to be more popular.

Model name of the lower receiver:
- CA-15
- SB-23
- CG-15

Caliber markings:
- 5.56mm
- Multi

Selector markings:
- standard selector markings

- HK style selector markings


It's not an option to run a poll for this because there are too many permutations for the above options. So let's just keep it simple and post a response with YOUR input.

CA-15 / 5.56mm / standard
CA-15 / 5.56mm / HK
CA-15 / multi / standard
CA-15 / multi / HK
SB-23 / 5.56mm / standard
SB-23 / 5.56mm / HK
SB-23 / multi / standard
SB-23 / multi / HK
CG-15 / 5.56mm / standard
CG-15 / 5.56mm / HK
CG-15 / multi / standard
CG-15 / multi / HK

And I didn't want to run three separate polls for people to vote for these options. Figured it would be easier for folks to simply say "I like these choices" in a post.

xenophobe
03-06-2007, 10:30 AM
How about setting this up as a poll...

Why? I have nothing to do with this. I was just merely making an observation.

I've been in enough "limited edition" custom run discussion of items to know that asking everyone what they want is the wrong way to go about it and will lead in endless circles of people saying "if I get this feature but not that, I'm in", "since it doesn't have this, I'm out", "if it doesn't have this, I'm in" etc....

Someone needs to pick an idea, stick to it and ask who is on board.

Even if someone does choose a design (which is what is going to NEED to happen), not everyone is going to be happy anyways.

Wes, your 4 month window of getting this done is probably extremely conservative.

Cali-V
03-06-2007, 10:32 AM
So how's it looking in terms of the ticks?

BTW....
You could do it with two polls first selects the name, (CA-15, SB-23, or CG-15), then of the top two you could have eight choices.

Or even Admin can setup a poll with 12 or more choices....

Just a little FYI...

Cali-V
03-06-2007, 10:33 AM
Why? I have nothing to do with this. I was just merely making an observation.
....

Not to worry, just an open statement... I too, was just merely making an observation.

ghostwong
03-06-2007, 10:55 AM
I say that's cool.
How about using Chinese Characters for the serial number? Really piss the DOF off . . . :eek:

Is this beyond the realm of possibilities ?

Model name of the lower receiver:
NONE

Caliber markings:
NONE

Selector markings:
- standard selector markings
Or NONE

ivorykid
03-06-2007, 2:34 PM
My vote:
CA-15 / multi / HK
And something to represent CalGuns.net (logo?).

But in the end, I'll get one with whatever they come with.

AudiA
03-06-2007, 3:07 PM
Someone set up up the poll! quick!

dbawmp
03-06-2007, 3:52 PM
SB-23
Multi
HK style markings

xenophobe
03-06-2007, 4:24 PM
Having the information like Make and Model in an engraved bar code would be kind of neat too.

casacel2
03-07-2007, 7:08 AM
I don't know why you would want anything on the reciever commemorating the state of california. Whether it be a bear or a seal; a flag whatever. I like the references to our NATIONAL right to self defense protected under the beloved Second Amendment.

Personally I would not like anything showing pride in a state that has tried so hard to take away the things I love, tried so hard to silence me, tried so hard to say my priorities are skewed, and succeeded in convincing the public I am the villan. No Thanks.

On that note I would like the markings to reflect my resentment to the state. I like the sarcastic, kick in the pants sb-23. Standard markings and a 556 caliber marking.

My 2 cents.

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2007, 8:49 AM
I've been in enough "limited edition" custom run discussion of items to know that asking everyone what they want is the wrong way to go about it and will lead in endless circles of people saying "if I get this feature but not that, I'm in", "since it doesn't have this, I'm out", "if it doesn't have this, I'm in" etc....

Someone needs to pick an idea, stick to it and ask who is on board.

We both know this Xeno and that is what is being done. Mega said 4-6 months. It might be more. I can only go off of what they say.

6172crew
03-07-2007, 8:52 AM
I don't know why you would want anything on the reciever commemorating the state of california. Whether it be a bear or a seal; a flag whatever. I like the references to our NATIONAL right to self defense protected under the beloved Second Amendment.

Personally I would not like anything showing pride in a state that has tried so hard to take away the things I love, tried so hard to silence me, tried so hard to say my priorities are skewed, and succeeded in convincing the public I am the villan. No Thanks.

On that note I would like the markings to reflect my resentment to the state. I like the sarcastic, kick in the pants sb-23. Standard markings and a 556 caliber marking.

My 2 cents.

Because its my state not theirs, Im just trying to get her back and in the mean time we are gearing up some CA legal ar15 receivers so the media and the lawmakers can stew a bit.:)

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2007, 10:59 AM
I already have 10 in my shop.

tenpercentfirearms
03-07-2007, 11:08 AM
Blank just like yours. Anyone can engrave whatever they want on any lower. They all pretty much have a right side with nothing on them with the exception of the laser engraved Spike's Tactials and the "law enforcement only" Ameetecs.

xenophobe
03-07-2007, 11:32 AM
How many of you would like one of these ?

I wouldn't mind owning one, just for the sake of curiosity...

You know why these are like this, right?

They're the by-product of a company who did not pay LAR their balance due. The original logo and model info was milled off prior to being serialized, the receivers were cut and then final milled again.

The LAR honeycombed logo receivers are also milled to remove original markings.

enchantor
03-08-2007, 11:05 AM
I kind of like Technical Ted's idea of a 999 limited run with SB23-xxx serial numbers. Then we can call them the CA-15.




IMHO, I see no reason in limiting anything we don't have to. We are already limited enough by the state, why do it to ourselves? Not a big deal, but I just find it contrary to our principles we stand for here.


Anyways, I like the SB-23 idea, HK Markings, 5.56mm

tenpercentfirearms
03-08-2007, 9:39 PM
IMHO, I see no reason in limiting anything we don't have to. We are already limited enough by the state, why do it to ourselves? Not a big deal, but I just find it contrary to our principles we stand for here.


Anyways, I like the SB-23 idea, HK Markings, 5.56mm
I find it quite the opposite. The idea that these lowers should be available to everyone reeks of the communism I despise so much. These lowers will drip with elitist, capitalistic pride as their limited numbers will command a premium price and make the greedy bourgeoisie who sell them have more control over the great working people who slave so hard to machine them. Nothing screams freedom more than limited edition lowers sold to the privledged class of OLL owners of the great republic of California. :D

GTKrockeTT
03-08-2007, 9:44 PM
I find it quite the opposite. The idea that these lowers should be available to everyone reeks of the communism I despise so much. These lowers will drip with elitist, capitalistic pride as their limited numbers will command a premium price and make the greedy bourgeoisie who sell them have more control over the great working people who slave so hard to machine them. Nothing screams freedom more than limited edition lowers sold to the privledged class of OLL owners of the great republic of California. :D

999 limited run? put me down for 998! don't want to be greedy:D

bigkahuna04
03-08-2007, 9:54 PM
I'll take the last one!:p

SB-23
MULTI
HK markings

jli567
03-08-2007, 10:01 PM
so is there a price and when these will happen? it seems like people are just chatting now.

boosterboy
03-08-2007, 11:23 PM
Anyways, I like the SB-23 idea, HK Markings, 5.56mm


screw H&K pictograms, I don't want H&K ninjas to mistaken my lower for HK product, or say that "your gun is a copy of H&K's desing".

Let's get those pictograms on the Magpul Billet lower

wheelgunner
03-09-2007, 4:13 AM
I kind of like Technical Ted's idea of a 999 limited run with SB23-xxx serial numbers.


I would like to reserve the number 666:D

wheelgunner
03-09-2007, 4:15 AM
Tenpercentfirearms, which design is ahead?

wheelgunner
03-11-2007, 12:41 PM
Are we getting close to making a design decision?
I just got my MM Grip and its waiting for a new receiver.

GI_JOE
03-11-2007, 10:23 PM
CA-15
5.56MM
HK Markings

gunrun45
03-12-2007, 12:55 AM
CA-15
Multi caliber
H&K type markings

(Put me down for 2)

dthoss
03-12-2007, 1:46 PM
CA-23
Multi
MagPul Markings

pouncey
03-12-2007, 10:52 PM
CG-15
Multi
Standard Markings

fwaptrout
03-13-2007, 8:13 PM
CA-15
Multi
HK markings

Mag_Rat
03-13-2007, 8:19 PM
How about something like this . . .

2892

Forgive the crude cut-and-paste job, use your imagination.

Oh, and

CA-15
No caliber markings or MULTI (these things are all about freedom, right?)
FIRE and SAFE on the selector (no Eurotrash)
SB-23-xxxx


+1...

USMC_2651_E5
03-13-2007, 9:43 PM
Originally Posted by NorCalRifleman
How about something like this . . .

Attachment 2892

Forgive the crude cut-and-paste job, use your imagination.

Oh, and

CA-15
No caliber markings or MULTI (these things are all about freedom, right?)
FIRE and SAFE on the selector (no Eurotrash)
SB-23-xxxx

This one is pretty good. I'll second it.

dychen
03-14-2007, 1:30 PM
SB23 (FUDOJ would be really sweet though, i'd buy one or two for sure)
5.56
HK markings

1911_sfca
03-15-2007, 12:14 PM
CA-15
No caliber markings or MULTI (these things are all about freedom, right?)
FIRE and SAFE on the selector (no Eurotrash)
SB-23-xxxx

+1. I like the bear and star or california state outline.

Definitely "CA LEGAL" or "CALIFORNIA LEGAL" stamped on it.

1911_Mitch
03-15-2007, 1:40 PM
CA-15
Multi
Standard

SemiAutoSam
03-15-2007, 3:57 PM
Here is a guy that makes AR receivers maybe he can make the ones we want?

By the phone # he looks to be in oregon.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/parts.cgi?read=191634

Parts and Accessories Market Board

WTS - CUSTOM STRIPPED AR15 LOWER RECIEVERS $ 159

Posted By: centermasstactical in Redmond, OR <whoop308@hotmail.com> (71-38-138-170.ptld.qwest.net)
Date: 3/15/07 18:56

I am a FFL SOT manufacturer that specializes in custom AR-15's. I have a limited # of stripped lower recievers in stock.

I mill my recievers to 1/3 of Colts factory mil-spec tolerances. I use 7071-T6 alloy forgings. I use an upgraded anodize QQP class2 type 3 which gives a nice satin finish.

Most recievers on the market have very loose tolerances and are only anodized with a QQP class 2 type 2 which gives a powdery matte finish. I mill my recievers to a step above a mill spec reciever.

The term mil-spec is a very over used word and nothing out on the market is really mil-spec unless it has select fire capabilities.

I stand behind the quality of my recievers and I know that anyone who purchases one will be very impressed.

Contact me via phone 541 230 0762 or email - Robert R

Discounts available for law enforcement/ military or bulk orders.
6-8 week minimum on orders of 50 or more
Custom engraving is an option

dotchoy
03-16-2007, 6:38 AM
Is this really going to happen?

Sydwaiz
03-16-2007, 8:07 AM
I hope so. SAS beat me to it. I've seen that ad on Sturm a number of times in the past.

tenpercentfirearms
03-16-2007, 12:41 PM
I just called and left a message. I will keep you updated.

SemiAutoSam
03-16-2007, 12:48 PM
Wes
I spoke with Robert up there and he said depending on amount suggested between 100-300 the time frame from receipt of order delivery would be 6-8 weeks.

And this is with what ever engraving we want.



I just called and left a message. I will keep you updated.

tenpercentfirearms
03-16-2007, 1:21 PM
Ok, this might be our official calguns lower.

We are looking at a 6-8 week time frame for 100 lowers to start. The first lowers are going to cost more because of the design issues, so I might try and keep the price low to start and make more on the later batches as my costs go down.

He said he pays twice as much for his lowers than the companies that buy the LAR lowers. He says his lowers have a higher titanium count, they are forged, and they burr all of the seams off so these are really sweet nice lowers. As a result, they are probably going to cost more, but if they are high quality and have calguns on them, it might be worth it.

My initial feel is that the price is going to be between $175 and $200 shipped and taxed, but if these things are half as good as he says, it might be worth it. I am paying for 4 of his standard lowers as samples and I will probably keep one or two, build them, shoot them, and send the others to some of our other dealers to test them out and give their opinions.

The more intricate the logo, the higher the cost. As a result I am thinking that the CA flag might be our best bet. A simple outline of the bear, the star, and maybe "CALIFORNIA" or "CALGUNS below the bear. The CALGUNS logo might run the cost up too much and delay their procurement. They will have custom serial numbers.

PIRATE14
03-16-2007, 2:01 PM
I find it quite the opposite. The idea that these lowers should be available to everyone reeks of the communism I despise so much. These lowers will drip with elitist, capitalistic pride as their limited numbers will command a premium price and make the greedy bourgeoisie who sell them have more control over the great working people who slave so hard to machine them. Nothing screams freedom more than limited edition lowers sold to the privledged class of OLL owners of the great republic of California. :D

You make me proud........;)

rassd71
03-16-2007, 6:26 PM
Ok, so where do we stand on the text of the lower? Is there a general consensus or a majority leaning?

How likely is the 'California Legal' part of the text?

Our the serial numbers going to be sequential? Or will it be a custom ordered number? Several people have put in dibbs on specific number sequences. Just curious. I would love any of the following 223, 556, 667 if they are being done random based on orders. OR if they are sequential, I would love one of the lowest numbers just for the 'cool' factor.

A simple graphic would also be the bear over the outline of the state.

Thanks for taking point on this.

tenpercentfirearms
03-16-2007, 9:36 PM
I think I am leaning away from "California Legal" as it might imply we are trying to get around the Kasler List and/or lead some people to think it is CA legal without SB-23 rules. I think just having the state of CA or the CA flag on it would be a good enough indicator. In fact, to help people remember they have to follow SB-23, I think the serial numbers will be SB23-xxx. Whether we can get custom serial numbers or if we are just going to have to go in order is still to be seen. As of right now, there will be no reservation of serial numbers, so no one has dibbs on anything nor will anyone until much later.

Also, I will tell you that there will be a list of people who get first dibs on serial numbers. This list will be formulated based on: first, founding/owning of calguns, second TPF employees, third political players, 3.5 calguns moderators, fourth OLL and CA compliance parts vendors, fifth whoever else I can think of who has helped us out, and finally when they go on sale first come first served.

So at this time rather than say, "I want this number or I want that number..." it would be more helpful if you guys said, "Ramon should get priority" or "what about artherd?" and other suggestions like that.

So basically sound off on who you think has been instrumental in this movement. I will go first.

Alison!

then

Shopkeep! :D

GTKrockeTT
03-16-2007, 9:38 PM
so, uh...how much extra for dibs? ;)

FluorideInMyWater
03-18-2007, 10:26 PM
SB-23
5.56
Standard

krazek
03-19-2007, 12:39 AM
I think I am leaning away from "California Legal" as it might imply we are trying to get around the Kasler List and/or lead some people to think it is CA legal without SB-23 rules. I think just having the state of CA or the CA flag on it would be a good enough indicator. In fact, to help people remember they have to follow SB-23, I think the serial numbers will be SB23-xxx. Whether we can get custom serial numbers or if we are just going to have to go in order is still to be seen. As of right now, there will be no reservation of serial numbers, so no one has dibbs on anything nor will anyone until much later.

Also, I will tell you that there will be a list of people who get first dibs on serial numbers. This list will be formulated based on: first, founding/owning of calguns, second TPF employees, third political players, 3.5 calguns moderators, fourth OLL and CA compliance parts vendors, fifth whoever else I can think of who has helped us out, and finally when they go on sale first come first served.

So at this time rather than say, "I want this number or I want that number..." it would be more helpful if you guys said, "Ramon should get priority" or "what about artherd?" and other suggestions like that.

So basically sound off on who you think has been instrumental in this movement. I will go first.

Alison!

then

Shopkeep! :D

sounds good wes. we'll be waiting for the details as they come.

ivanimal
03-19-2007, 1:22 AM
I will take 2 when they become available. I would like low numbereof course, :D its your call, I will leave uit up to you. Thanks for putting this all together Wes. Please let me know if there is a prepay and I will send it immediately.

xrMike
03-19-2007, 1:41 PM
For the logo, I would like the outline of CA state, along with a backhand view of a clenched fist with a single, solitary middle finger sticking straight up, floating, right there in the middle of the state outline...

For the serial number, I don't care what number you put on it (fancy numbers are for nancy-boys who never shoot their rifles but still clean them all the time), just as long as it starts with: FUDOJ!--

The selector markings are unimportant as well, as long as it says SHTF in the fun spot.

Thank you for listening. ;)

tenpercentfirearms
03-19-2007, 6:13 PM
Centermass Tactical is moving quick on this. They said 4-6 weeks, but they might start production this week. They should be sending me some sample logos tonight or in the next couple of days. Here is what it looks like so far.

Logo: CA bear with star and CALGUNS.NET above the bear or maybe even below. My question, do you guys want CALGUNS or CALGUNS.NET ? I think I like CALGUNS.NET as it is a key part of what this place is.

Selectors:HK safe and fire will be a couple bucks extra, but they can do it and that is what we will do. I got him to split the cost with me.

Serial number: to help remind people these have to configured in a legal manner per SB-23, the serial numbers will have the prefix SB23-XXXX. They will be a 4 digit alternating number. The first 100 will be SB23-0001 through SB23-0100. They cannot go out of sequence once they start per BATFE.

So in order to get people the serial numbers they want, here is what will probably happen. I will be creating the list of OLL players and giving them first dibs. After that, the lowers will go on sale and first come first served on serial numbers. The only challenge will be if it takes forever to sell the first 100, then we might never see the higher serial numbers in the 300+ range. I can probably take a non-refundable deposit on the higher numbers and if we never hit them, then you will get whatever we have left. That is the only fair way I can think of doing it. So if you want lower SB23-0223, you might never get it if we only sell 200 of them and sales die out. However, you will have paid for one and will get lower 198 or whatever is left. So if you are going to take this gamble, you might want to order 2, get one right away and wait to see if you get the other one you want. If not, then you will still have two.

Price is still up in the air. My initial desire is to have 1 be $200 shipped (that includes tax and shipping), 2 for $190, and 3+ for $180. These are not cheap lowers not because I am making a ton of money, but because supposdly Centermass Tactical pays extra and has some of the finest lowers out there so their cost is just higher. I just bought 4 of them and told him to ship them to me ASAP so I can test one or two for myself and send the other two to some volunteers to give them a look over and parts test.

The best part about the price is that for every lower I buy, I am going to send $10 as a "licensing fee" or donation (what ever is better for legal and tax reasons) to Calguns so we can keep it going. Right off the bat there is $1000 going towards our beloved website.

THIS THING IS A GO! Get ready because it might get fast and furious. Again, I will not be taking any pre-orders, money on deposit, or anything else. This is not a group buy with the headaches of a group buy of waiting and wondering or putting money up front and never seeing anything. I will be fronting all of the costs and when you buy a lower, you will get a lower. They will not go on sale until I have them.

There will be more. If we sell the first 100 like hotcakes, they will produce some more. The first batch is the hardest so they can get the tooling up, but once we start, then we can keep on going.

What you might want to start doing now is e-mailing me and asking if I have your transfer FFL on file. As I get in the requests I will make a list of FFLs I have on file and let you know if I have your transfer dealer or not. If I don't, then it will be your responsiblity to get their FFL and CFD to me. This is something you can start working on now.

jmlivingston
03-19-2007, 6:22 PM
What's the final say on the caliber marking, "MULTI"? You're estimated pricing above, that's the ballpark you'll be charging us?

John

tenpercentfirearms
03-19-2007, 6:30 PM
I forgot about caliber. I am sure he can do multi for us. I will be sure to bring it up.

That is what I would like to keep the pricing at. Again, the owner is claiming he pays more for his lowers and that they are premium, so that shoots up the price. Calguns gets $10 too so that brings it up. I want to make this affordable for us, but at the same time I am not in this business for free. Depending on how nice these are $200 shipped or as low as $180 each shipped might not be too bad to own a piece of OLL history and quite possibly a really nice lower. Until I see them I don't take anything for granted due to the fact that Essential told me in the early days he had some pretty nice lowers. :(

Now just wait until I get the Ten Percent Firearms Scooter lowers going. :eek:

SemiAutoSam
03-19-2007, 6:33 PM
Wes I like the idea of "Calguns.net" on the receiver its a invite to who ever See's the receiver good idea.

What about the possibility of having either a Multi or just left blank for the caliber nomenclature. ?

I want to be able to run the thing in any caliber and not be restricted.

You might know this best If your receiver only states .223 or 5.56 on it does that mean you cannot run any other caliber ?

Maybe Gene can answer this question if you aren't sure?

DO you have the (Not ready for prime time) OLL PLAYERS list made up yet ?

hoffmang
03-19-2007, 6:43 PM
There are no actual legal restrictions related to the Caliber marking. However, multi is both cooler and would always cause a bureaucrat to assume the correct thing. "See, it says multi on it."

-Gene

SemiAutoSam
03-19-2007, 6:51 PM
Since this is the case maybe the MFG or Engraver will leave off the caliber markings for some of us that desire no caliber markings.

Thanks Gene for clarifying this point.

There are no actual legal restrictions related to the Caliber marking. However, multi is both cooler and would always cause a bureaucrat to assume the correct thing. "See, it says multi on it."

-Gene

JPN6336
03-19-2007, 6:54 PM
Since this is the case maybe the MFG or Engraver will leave off the caliber markings for some of us that desire no caliber markings.

Thanks Gene for clarifying this point.

Global Tactical's lowers have no caliber marking.

vikingshelmut
03-19-2007, 7:11 PM
I would definitely prefer CALGUNS as opposed to CALGUNS.NET. I just don't like "webifying" the thing. Leaving off the .net leaves it cleaner and has a broader scope than pointing out that it is a website. Those who would look know that Calguns is a website.

I do strongly oppose the HK style selector though. It's just my opinion, but I don't like the colors when building an all black rifle. If they were the same design but lacked the color, I would like that.

Again, my 2cents. I'm looking to start my first OLL soon, and would really like to start off with one of these!

SemiAutoSam
03-19-2007, 7:14 PM
From talking to the man that Machines these receivers the nomenclature is engraved into them. According to him they have no markings directly out of the forge.

Global Tactical's lowers have no caliber marking.

wheelgunner
03-19-2007, 7:30 PM
For the logo, I would like the outline of CA state, along with a backhand view of a clenched fist with a single, solitary middle finger sticking straight up, floating, right there in the middle of the state outline...

For the serial number, I don't care what number you put on it (fancy numbers are for nancy-boys who never shoot their rifles but still clean them all the time), just as long as it starts with: FUDOJ!--

The selector markings are unimportant as well, as long as it says SHTF in the fun spot.

Thank you for listening. ;)

Cool! I second this one;)

6172crew
03-19-2007, 7:30 PM
Once again Wes, Thanks for stepping up. I need another lower like I need a hole in the head but if it helps our website and pisses off AM then Im in.

wheelgunner
03-19-2007, 7:33 PM
tenpercent "I can probably take a non-refundable deposit on the higher numbers and if we never hit them, then you will get whatever we have left."

I'll send you a non refundable deposit...:D

tenpercentfirearms
03-19-2007, 9:07 PM
I do not believe they will have colored HK markings as that will cost extra. I am trying to keep the costs down on this thing and so if you want colored markings, I think there are a few threads already out there on how to do it.

If they don't mark the caliber, then we will leave it blank. If they mark the caliber, I will go for MULTI. There is nothing that says a 5.56mm has to be 5.56mm. For example I have a FAB-10 5.56mm lower that is currently registered as a .50 BMG rifle.

Rem1492
03-19-2007, 11:26 PM
Count me in for one if it says CA LEGAL on it.

My TX buddies will get a kick out of it.
Off hand, can we put a surfer and a sunset on it?

tenpercentfirearms
03-20-2007, 5:35 AM
It will not say CA legal on it. I don't want to confuse people or give the DOJ any leverage to make something up.

If the state bear, CALGUNS.NET, and SB23 should be enough to convince someone this is a California lower.

Fjold
03-20-2007, 6:04 AM
Yo Wes,

What does this mean?

"I will be creating the list of OLL players and giving them first dibs. After that, the lowers will go on sale and first come first served on serial numbers."


Who are the list of OLL Players? Are we going to have a lottery for who gets the first pick of serial numbers? Are certain numbers already reserved?

tenpercentfirearms
03-20-2007, 8:40 AM
Here is what I said in post #229. e-mail me for more information if you want. Also, I will tell you that there will be a list of people who get first dibs on serial numbers. This list will be formulated based on: first, founding/owning of calguns, second TPF employees, third political players, 3.5 calguns moderators, fourth OLL and CA compliance parts vendors, fifth whoever else I can think of who has helped us out, and finally when they go on sale first come first served.

So at this time rather than say, "I want this number or I want that number..." it would be more helpful if you guys said, "Ramon should get priority" or "what about artherd?" and other suggestions like that.

SemiAutoSam
03-20-2007, 8:47 AM
Wes
Will you please post the list. Just so everyone knows where they stand and there isn't any mystery ?

mark3lb
03-20-2007, 8:50 AM
The term "CA LEGAL" would be really cool on an OLL. That might be very helpful when dealing with an LEO

Rem1492
03-20-2007, 9:09 AM
If the state bear, CALGUNS.NET, and SB23 should be enough to convince someone this is a California lower.
Good point. I will still want one then. :) By chance could we get the state flower too?

tenpercentfirearms
03-20-2007, 9:47 AM
Wes
Will you please post the list. Just so everyone knows where they stand and there isn't any mystery ?
Probably not. If you are on the list, you will know in the next two weeks. If you are not on the list you will see the for sale thread come up and need to get on board. I think the list being posted will cause more problems than it will solve.

Sam, you are a CA OLL or accessory vendor aren't you?

tenpercentfirearms
03-20-2007, 9:49 AM
The term "CA LEGAL" would be really cool on an OLL. That might be very helpful when dealing with an LEO
I don't think so. I think it might cause some people to illegally configure their OLLs and point at that and claim it is CA Legal. I don't want people to be lulled into a false sense of security. Most of us won't do that, but there is a chance some might or a chance the DOJ might claim something. I think it is best to just leave CA Legal out.

Again, if the state bear, CALGUNS, and SB23 should be enough to give you a sense of CA ownership of this lower.

xrMike
03-20-2007, 10:16 AM
So there's going to be a list of people who get first crack at these off-list lowers?

That is both interesting and ironic.