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View Full Version : getting Krinkov kits in CA, help needed!


Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 4:55 PM
Hello all,

I just bought an AKS-74U krinkov kit on gunbroker. The plan was to have it sent a friend in Nevada so that I could pick it up and modify the mag it comes with to meet legal standards. Well, my friend is on vacation and is unreachable. Is it illegal to have the kit shipped to CA without the magazine?????? The barrel is 8 inches long. I know normal AK kits are not a problem but this one is different due to the short barrel. Don't respond if you don't know the answer. I don't want guesses. I want the facts. I know kits are not considered firearms but I need help.

Thanks all!

devjunk762
02-23-2007, 5:14 PM
There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about getting a demilled kit shipped to Kali. The kit is not considered a firearm by the BATF (if demilled correctly) and Kali law has nothing more to say about it. The only possible way you could run afoul with the law is if the kit included a magazine which held more than 10 rounds... but you already noted that.

However, when you actually ASSEMBLE the kit you run the risk of violating the law (if assembled "incorrectly")- but, ah, you already knew that. ;)

blkA4alb
02-23-2007, 5:25 PM
If you own a receiver that the kit will fit on DO NOT be in possession of the short barrel. You would fall under constructive possession of a SBR.

insin
02-23-2007, 5:28 PM
DO NOT be in possession of the short barrel. You would fall under constructive possession of a SBR.

Thats what I always thought also.

Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 5:29 PM
I do not have the receiver yet. I won't even bother with it until the barrel has the fake silencer attached. Am I still golden then???????

blkA4alb
02-23-2007, 5:31 PM
I do not have the receiver yet. I won't even bother with it until the barrel has the fake silencer attached. Am I still golden then???????
It sounds like it, make sure that the fake silencer is permanantly attached (silver solder, welded over pin, etc.)

bwiese
02-23-2007, 5:58 PM
Jeezus, another guy just asking for trouble.

One Calgunner has already been hit by BATF for constructive possession of SMG (had a so-called 80% receiver and separate parts kit). I expect more of these cases. In fact, this supposedly 'slipped' thru EBay, and I'm getting the feeling the items may have in fact been sold w/EBay connivance by ATF or someone under ATF control (working off some charges, etc.)

Yes, a Krink kit alone is perfectly legal to have, even w/short bbl. You could be building an AK pistol.

The moment you get such a kit and have a purchased receiver in your posession - even if it's 3000+ miles away in your vacation home in Maine - you've just acquired an SBR. (Any receiver you purchase in CA, unless it's been PPT'd and has a clear chain of never being transferred as a rifle from its manufacture, is not gonna be suitable for pistol builds.)

If you're trying to build a pistol from a homebuilt receiver you might have a fighting chance, but get rid of rear stock beforehand.

Frankly I'd like to discourage some of this activity, some folks are gonna get really burned even beyond what happened to the other Calgunner busted w/disassembled SMG kit + tube receiver not fully drilled.

Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 6:04 PM
I purchased an NDS-3 in the past but its already been assembled into a long gun. Should I should wait until my buddy gets back from vacation?

If you're trying to build a pistol from a homebuilt receiver you might have a fighting chance, but get rid of rear stock beforehand

Perhaps you did not read my other thread. This will have a welded fake can and the stock will be pinned. The rifle will be gripless. And I'll just have to find a 10 round mag.

xenophobe
02-23-2007, 6:35 PM
Perhaps you did not understand Bill.

Until that barrel is permanently extended past 16", owning it and a rifle or receiver that it can be attached to constitutes possession of an unregistered SBR.

If you already own a Cali-AK build of any sort, just owning the 8" krink barrel is a felony.

Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 6:56 PM
All I can say is SH&$. lol. I just sent the seller an e-mail.

bwiese
02-23-2007, 7:32 PM
I keep saying, these parts kits are gonna get lotsa folks in trouble.

Generally regular ARs and FALs are one thing, AKs generally OK, but many other parts kits + receivers can get one in deep doo-doo.

Also, the scrapped rifles making up the parts kits are often just dumped in the box by min. wage labor. If you ask for a parts kit minus certain parts, there's a fair chance your order may not be obeyed.

Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 7:58 PM
Thanks for the info guys. I've just contacted gunbroker and the seller to try and annul the auction.

Q
02-23-2007, 8:11 PM
the nds3 is not compatable with 5.45 caliber. i would just spend the extra money and buy this one if i was looking for a krinkov but it is not in 5.45.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/programming/expand.asp?Prodid=198
but if i already have the tools and like gunsmithing or repairing i would probably try to build my own. for me i would rather buy new that way i can always sue.:p

Solidsnake87
02-23-2007, 11:26 PM
The seller agreed to cancell my item. I guess if I had gotten in trouble he would have gotten in trouble also. It kind of sucks that I must now pay for a fully built rifle because the damn kits are an SBR no matter what type of AK receiver you have........ Building an AKS-74U would run $1000. Buying is $1500-$1700 :(

bwiese
02-23-2007, 11:34 PM
because the damn kits are an SBR no matter what type of AK receiver you have........

The only way to get around the SBR/construtive possession stuff is if you had a pistol receiver and were building a pistol. That has its own separate load of grief in CA...

Smart people that want a short bbl built up to legit rifle order the bbl from a vendor that can do a good legal job of pinning/welding a muzzle extension to bring OAL bbl length to 16", or have the kit vendor ship the kit to a gunsmith.

shonc99
02-28-2007, 12:38 PM
I recently got a romanian parts kit in and have 2 recievers dros'd but the 10 days are not up yet.

Question: Am I in violation of constructive posession even though the recievers are at the dealer?

grammaton76
02-28-2007, 12:42 PM
I recently got a romanian parts kit in and have 2 recievers dros'd but the 10 days are not up yet.

Question: Am I in violation of constructive posession even though the recievers are at the dealer?

For what, assault weapon charges? CA doesn't have constructive possession on AW's. They're talking about federal SBR regs, which are different and much easier to go after folks on.

rssslvr
02-28-2007, 12:53 PM
Damn and I so wanted to do a krink next,Guess I should have done that first before my romy G builds:(

mtnguy
02-28-2007, 1:15 PM
What type of legal action is the Calgunner with SMG kit facing ?

morepoop4u
02-28-2007, 1:48 PM
What if you had the receiver built into a rifle but planned on converting it to a krink. Then couldn't you receive the parks kit directly and pin the fake can before you swap the parts? Screw builds would be the easiest to swap. Just swap the barreled front end, BCG, and top cover. Harlan said the m92 krink would work on a nds-3 except the rear trunion but that would be converted to a fixed stock anyways. A guy on the EE at ar15.com has virgin romy barrels for $60 shipped. I bought one to turn down to krink specs to build with a nds-3, romy kit, bulgy hg, fr sight/gas block, hg retainer, rear sight block, top cover, and krink gas piston;
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p23/Adventurer_96/Krink16Inch2.jpg
(stolen from the akforums;) )
So can you legally purschase krinks kits if your receivers are already built into rifles???

morepoop4u
02-28-2007, 1:54 PM
worst comes to worse you can buy one of these from kvar.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/images/barassy.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16586&cat=0&page=3
Then have your friend order the kit for you;) and have him send everything except the barrel which you could resell to recoup some cash.

grammaton76
02-28-2007, 1:54 PM
So can you legally purschase krinks kits if your receivers are already built into rifles???

I'm pretty sure that what Bill's saying, is that constructive possession would apply because you could press out a 16" AK barrel and press in the SBR barrel.

morepoop4u
02-28-2007, 1:59 PM
I'm pretty sure that what Bill's saying, is that constructive possession would apply because you could press out a 16" AK barrel and press in the SBR barrel.

Too bad that "The use of a tool," doesn't apply here:D :cool:

E Pluribus Unum
02-28-2007, 2:01 PM
The only way to get around the SBR/construtive possession stuff is if you had a pistol receiver and were building a pistol. That has its own separate load of grief in CA...

Not completely true....

I have never owned an AK rifle; I have no receiver 80% or otherwise.

I could order one of those kits, modify the barrel as described, pin the magazine as described, and then purchase the receiver.

JPglee1
02-28-2007, 2:01 PM
Damn and I so wanted to do a krink next,Guess I should have done that first before my romy G builds:(

It can be done here...I know of at least one w/a permanently attached fake can on it and a 16.5" barrel.... :D

J

leelaw
02-28-2007, 2:15 PM
There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about getting a demilled kit shipped to Kali. The kit is not considered a firearm by the BATF (if demilled correctly) and Kali law has nothing more to say about it. The only possible way you could run afoul with the law is if the kit included a magazine which held more than 10 rounds... but you already noted that.

However, when you actually ASSEMBLE the kit you run the risk of violating the law (if assembled "incorrectly")- but, ah, you already knew that. ;)

INCORRECT!

That would fall under FEDERAL SBR law, which has a constructive possession clause. If the barrel is under 16" and is near a receiver that can hold it, it is a constructive possession of a SBR. go to prison, do not pass go.

jumbopanda
02-28-2007, 3:17 PM
Damn...constructive possession is such a load of BS.

Solidsnake87
02-28-2007, 4:21 PM
I bought a new AR upper instead :D I'll just have to have the K-var 16inch kit sent to nevada when I decide to build. That 16 inch kit requires the headsmithing of a gunsmith (or somebody more experienced than me) since its a new unassembled kit. Finding an gunsmith to build that kit will still make the ned product in the $1200-1700 range.

morepoop4u
02-28-2007, 5:31 PM
The kit that you ordered off of gunbroker just needed this
http://rapidfire.targetweb.net/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi/agora.cgi?cart_id=4246393.27584*vc7lP0&p_id=02017&xm=on&ppinc=big

http://www.ohiorapidfire.com/products/MVC-011S.JPG

Just drill it and drop a detent pin in and tack weld over it. It takes about 30 mins.

here's a tutorial
scroll down
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782
http://www.kevinholman.com/byor/perm/perm2.jpg

http://www.kevinholman.com/byor/perm/perm3.jpg

http://www.kevinholman.com/byor/perm/perm4.jpg

bwiese
02-28-2007, 5:51 PM
Morepoop,

Jeezus, you just don't get it. DON'T ORDER THE FRIGGIN' KIT IF YOU OWN A RECEIVER OR A GUN THAT CAN ACCEPT THE BBL IN THE KIT. Disassembled it's still an illegal combo.

Even if you intend to lengthen the bbl the moment that kit is in your possession you can be considered possessing an illegal SBR for the time before doing the bbl lengthening w/permanent attachment.

Even if you had made the change you suggest, there's still a good chance that paperwork (receipts, Ebay logs, etc.) could indicate you acquired the parts illegally.

Have someone else (knowledgable!) do the bbl for you before you accept the bbl; don't order receivers that are open-bolt designs and don't have disassembled parts kits and receivers that can make an MG as their primary outcome.

Some of you folks are gonna go to jail, I see the noobs here going blithely along on a vast cloud of misconceptions. CA law ain't the only thing you gotta worry about - and this constructive possession concept applies at both CA and Fed level for SBRs and MGs.

One Calgunner is in trouble for an SMG - he bought an 80% receiver off EBay (and there's really no such thing as an 80% receiver!) and had a parts kit in possession. He never even began the build. While he did have intent to build a legal semiauto, and CA-legal to boot, that didn't matter.

(BTW the sale of one of the items on Ebay may well have been the ATF or an ATF stooge.)

bwiese
02-28-2007, 5:57 PM
The only way to get around the SBR/construtive possession stuff is if you had a pistol receiver and were building a pistol. That has its own separate load of grief in CA...



Not completely true....

I have never owned an AK rifle; I have no receiver 80% or otherwise.

I could order one of those kits, modify the barrel as described, pin the magazine as described, and then purchase the receiver.


Yes my phrasing is a bit casual and I wanted to just address the pistol issue in that post.

But yes, if you got the kit first and HAD NO RIFLE OR RECEIVER and made the bbl mods to get to 16" permanently, then you are OK.

grammaton76
02-28-2007, 6:13 PM
Just drill it and drop a detent pin in and tack weld over it. It takes about 30 mins.

Ya know, even with the tack welding, I'm very concerned about using a BRASS (i.e. soft metal) pin in this case.

With a good strong wrench, wouldn't you be able to torque off the extension without cutting off the weld? Unless you're doing a REALLY big tack weld, that is. Basically, what I'm getting at is that I don't think the brass pin will buy you anything more than the weld does on its own. A steel pin would be a different story.

bwiese
02-28-2007, 6:14 PM
Ya know, even with the tack welding, I'm very concerned about using a BRASS (i.e. soft metal) pin in this case.

With a good strong wrench, wouldn't you be able to torque off the extension without cutting off the weld? Unless you're doing a REALLY big tack weld, that is. Basically, what I'm getting at is that I don't think the brass pin will buy you anything more than the weld does on its own. A steel pin would be a different story.

Correct. ATF has a standard for pinning/welding. 1200deg silver solder is also apparently acceptable.

shonc99
02-28-2007, 7:15 PM
Some of you folks are gonna go to jail, I see the noobs here going blithely along on a vast cloud of misconceptions. CA law ain't the only thing you gotta worry about - and this constructive possession concept applies at both CA and Fed level for SBRs and MGs.

One Calgunner is in trouble for an SMG - he bought an 80% receiver off EBay (and there's really no such thing as an 80% receiver!) and had a parts kit in possession. He never even began the build. While he did have intent to build a legal semiauto, and CA-legal to boot, that didn't matter.


This was my question earlier- I bought a kit from Copes Dist, and have the reciever sitting at the dealer kicking down the 10 day clock. As soon as I pick up the NDS reciever I'm in consructive posession unless I throw all the fire control parts away before picking up the reciever -RIGHT?

-BUT WAIT-

As previously posted, even if you have the evil combination seperated by a few thousand miles, it is still a voilation.

-SO-

Even though the reciever is at the dealer it belongs to me- I'm the owner. Does the constructive posession law apply?

bwiese
02-28-2007, 7:19 PM
Even though the reciever is at the dealer it belongs to me- I'm the owner. Does the constructive posession law apply?

Perhaps, that's grey. At the end of the waiting period, even more so because it's essentially under your control - all you gotta do is pick up the receiver.

I'd lose the barrel.

grammaton76
02-28-2007, 7:22 PM
Perhaps, that's grey. At the end of the waiting period, even more so because it's essentially under your control - all you gotta do is pick up the receiver.

I'd lose the barrel.

Wait - I think the guy's talking, not about a Krinkov, but about a standard AKM 'G' kit. You were talking about constructive MG possession, and I'm pretty sure that's what Shonc99 is talking about here as well.

I seem to recall reading that the Feds just cared, on AK's, about whether or not you had FA mods to the receiver, considering that the FCG can be used in a semi auto build?

JHC
02-28-2007, 7:49 PM
Very few kits come with all of the FA parts anyway, the disconnector on Romy G's make them semi only so how would constructive posession work with that?

grammaton76
02-28-2007, 7:56 PM
Found some a scan of an ATF letter which, while they don't address the precise question we're looking for ("are AK FA FCG components subject to constructive possession with a semi-only receiver?"), do make mention of only accomodating SA components.

Now, I'm not about to test fit any FA components, but I'm pretty sure that, like with H&K FCGs, they don't care about the FCG provided that the receiver's semi-only mods haven't been reversed.

http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/AK/docs/legal/sellingbuilds.htm

While SBR constructive possession is absolutely an issue, I'm not convinced that MG constructive possession applies on the AK side when dealing with an ATF-approved semi-only receiver. Homebuilds could well be off in the ozone somewhere, given that if you screw up a dimension, you might not be doing whatever it takes to block FA action. I saw reference to some kind of rail configuration on one link I was reading earlier, in addition to the infamous third hole.