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Lunar Days
02-22-2007, 9:31 PM
My first OLL build has ended in disaster... I hammered in a trigger guard roll pin that was the wrong size and snapped a part of the receiver off when trying to tap the pin back out. Should I chuck it, or can a welder make it pretty again? Attached is a pic:

stealthmode
02-22-2007, 9:35 PM
ouch

Steyr_223
02-22-2007, 9:36 PM
Which OLL is that?

Santa Cruz Armory
02-22-2007, 9:36 PM
BUMMER!!! :eek:

Well, what make receiver is it? I have heard that Stag has replaces lowers that were broken in the same manner. Give the manufacturer a call, it can't hurt.

Good luck!

shark92651
02-22-2007, 9:37 PM
My first OLL build has ended in disaster... I hammered in a trigger guard roll pin that was the wrong size and snapped a part of the receiver off when trying to tap the pin back out. Should I chuck it, or can a welder make it pretty again? Here's a pic:

Ouch, sorry dude. How did you manage to get a wrong size pin? If I recall correctly the trigger guard roll pin is the biggest one in the kit. I think your best bet is going to be to get another lower :(

Lunar Days
02-22-2007, 9:38 PM
It's a Rock River LAR-15

car15
02-22-2007, 9:38 PM
You can use a Magpul grip with an attached trigger guard.

ghost
02-22-2007, 9:41 PM
it wont affect the use of your rifle,it just doesnt look good cosmetically.i wouldnt "chuck" it though,imo.

DedEye
02-22-2007, 9:42 PM
Or you can contact RRA and see if they'll swap it out under warranty. Good luck.

Lunar Days
02-22-2007, 9:42 PM
I'm assuming it was the wrong size because:

1) I read a post on another site that stated many lower parts kits have trigger guard pins that are not up to spec.

2) It was so difficult to hammer in, and I still can't get it out... I'll have to drill it out.

3) The other pins all went in very easily

I'm going to call RRA but I'm not expecting them to do anything...

Santa Cruz Armory
02-22-2007, 9:46 PM
What type of lower parts kit is it?

I know its a little late, but I use white lithium grease on all the roll pins. 5 lowers and counting....Plus I use something to back up the trigger guard under it while I'm pounding.it in.

Lunar Days
02-22-2007, 9:50 PM
It's a RRA lower parts kit, with the 2 stage trigger. This is the first build I've ever attempted, and the trigger guard pin was the first pin I installed... perhaps I hammered it in at a slight angle or something. It really seems like it was the wrong size, though.

damon1272
02-22-2007, 9:54 PM
You should have supported the ear when driving the pin. I would think that a competent welder could TIG it up for you. It is a non critical area. Or just do what one poster already suggested and use a magpul grip with the integral trigger guard. Tough break.:(

Lunar Days
02-22-2007, 10:01 PM
I'm definitely going to look into the Magpul grip. Thank you very much for the suggestion.

I actually did have everything supported very well, using a block of wood. I think the 10 minutes of hammering it in, plus the 10 minutes of trying to hammer it out, finally produced too much stress on the aluminum.

Thank you everyone, for all the advice.

Bolt2Bounce
02-22-2007, 10:54 PM
I did the same thing years ago on a pre ban PWA receiver, :eek: I just had a friend of mine weld it up with a TIG. It will fix it up fine, it might not be beautiful anymore but I really didn't care at all, it's an "evil assault weapon" black and bad ***, it ain't suppose to be high gloss... learned the hard way...;) B2B

goldfinger
02-22-2007, 11:04 PM
call rra

rkt88edmo
02-22-2007, 11:50 PM
Just make a new ear with JB weld. This problem probably ranks third behind "I launched my detent" and "I scratched my receiver installing the bolt catch roll pin" for new builders.

Tweak338
02-22-2007, 11:51 PM
Did you use a rollpin punch? or just a hammer?
if you used just a hammer, is it possible the rollpin got smaller lenght wise and it expanded making it too large..

did you have the ears supported while installing the rollpin?

If you decide to chuck it.. sell it to me for $15 :D

xenophobe
02-23-2007, 12:03 AM
You needed a proper roll pin punch, though a slightly oversized standard punch works fine too. The ear needs to be fully supported, not the receiver. Some people say a stack of magazines, but I won't use anything but wood or metal as a support for the ear.

Sorry to see that happen. There's not much you can do, except get a Magpul Full MIAD grip kit and use the supplied trigger guard. If RRA will replace it, that's fine. Welding isn't really an option that will work.

As for the roll pin, the RRA LPK's are the easiest to install, and their trigger guard roll pin isn't as tight as a Stag, Armalite or Magpul roll pin.

Satex
02-23-2007, 12:08 AM
You should have supported the ear when driving the pin. I would think that a competent welder could TIG it up for you. It is a non critical area. Or just do what one poster already suggested and use a magpul grip with the integral trigger guard. Tough break.:(

As Damon said, you HAVE to support the ear when gently driving the pin in. Also, always do the install over a wood surface. These lowers are made of hardened Aluminum,so they are strong but they can snap given the right amount of torque.

Go on ARF, they have good step by step instructions with warnings so things like this don't happen.

I would also give RRA a call. Who knows, they may make your day and give you a new lower.

Good luck!

xenophobe
02-23-2007, 12:27 AM
As Damon said, you HAVE to support the ear when gently driving the pin in. Also, always do the install over a wood surface.

I like to use the flat edge of a drill press table or a vice, sometimes I'll use a hardwood block. A t-shirt or cloth over it keeps it from getting marred, and it won't flex.

It's tricky keeping the receiver balanced when you're only supporting it by the ear is tricky, but it needs to be done.

kicker72
02-23-2007, 12:49 AM
I use a small piece of 2x4 for support, roll pin punch and a rubber mallet. The rubber mallet makes the installation of all the pins a snap. I tried using a regular hammer and it's a pain in the arse compared to using the mallet.:D

xenophobe
02-23-2007, 1:28 AM
I actually found that the flat end of my lightweight/hobby sized ball pein hammer (I think it's 6 or 8oz) works better than a rubber mallet or brass head hammer.

Stanze
02-23-2007, 3:21 AM
Some people tape up the receiver and a pair of Vice-grips to gently squeeze the pin through the hole.

Bummer man, if it can't be replaced under warranty I'd repair it or get a Stag. A broken ear would definitely bug me.

tenpercentfirearms
02-23-2007, 6:41 AM
I wouldn't suspect the roll pin as the cause because RRA parts are the best ones I install. They usually go in really well.

I simply use the pistol grip as a support when driving in that pin. I just put it on the lower and don't bolt it on and hammer away. I have never had a problem. I also have the correct roll pin punches too.

PIRATE14
02-23-2007, 7:47 AM
This won't be easy for RRA to replace but they might do it for you......call them and see what they say, let me know, I should be able to weigh on your behalf........if they replace it will take 9 mos to a year......yes they are that busy.

Plus they won't ship it into the state for you but we can route it in for you if req'd.........

sthornwall
02-23-2007, 7:56 AM
That sucks man. Hopefully the manufacturer will replace it. Never hurts to call.

I never use a hammer for any builds. I would recommend that next time you try squeezing in your roll pins carefully with a combination of pliers with electrical tape wrapped around and break free for lube. Takes a little longer to build but patience is of the essence. Good luck!!

Sydwaiz
02-23-2007, 8:07 AM
You said you had it supported but did you have the ear supported on the inside with the trigger gaurd when you started tapping the roll pin? I'm sure you did but just want to make sure.

I use the electrical tape and channel lock method. But first I start the roll pin by squeezing it with a set of pliers to reduce the diameter and place it in the hole. Once the roll pin is started in the hole, I switch to the tape and channel locks. I use DPMS LPKs.

I know a good welder if you decide to go that route. It might not be worth it though considering his costs. I would JB weld it back on AND get a MIAD grip.

mltrading
02-23-2007, 9:32 AM
Ouch! Let us know the follow up. Sorry to hear about that!

Forever-A-Soldier
02-23-2007, 3:22 PM
http://joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/FR/Homer_Doh.jpg

Good luck!

HkUSP45
02-23-2007, 4:42 PM
The other thing you cuold do is, insert the pin into the broken peice. Then drive that pin into the receiver. Then have it tig welded. And just sand off excess weld and repaint it. Good as new.

For my lower build, I toss all the roll pins into the freezer to shrink it a bit and when i'm ready i just insert with slight pressure. And i warm up my lower receiver in the toaster oven. Works like a charm.

anotherted
02-23-2007, 6:18 PM
TRIGGER GUARD ASSEMBLY
PARTS: trigger guard assembly, roll pin
TOOLS: 1/8" roll pin punch, hammer

* Attach front of trigger guard assembly to the receiver using the detent.
* Lay receiver on a block of wood, and drive roll pin into receiver and rear of trigger guard using drive pin punch.
* Make sure that the small block of wood is supporting the bottom flange and that the trigger guard is in position supporting the top flange otherwise you risk bending or breaking off one of the flanges.
* Also watch as you put in the roll pin that it is going through the hole in the trigger guard correctly.

FUNCTION CHECK
* Check that by depressing the detent on trigger guard you are able to pivot the trigger guard open.

Technical Ted
02-23-2007, 6:23 PM
I had this happen to me on my very first build in 1981. I failed to support the "bottom" trigger guard ear and broke it off. I went through several channels in an attempt to get it repaired and wound up with a lower that was uglier than sin. I got rid of it ASAP.

For the next lower I used a small arbor press where I was working to install the pin and a small block of wood for support. It went together smoothly.

Since then I've simply used magazines, stacks of paper, plastic or wood blocks--whatever's handy.

Paul
02-23-2007, 6:30 PM
The roll pin is likely the correct size.

A bit of oil helps as does squeezing the end.

You must support the back side of the tab as you tap the pin in. A thin piece of scrap wood is what I use.

Lunar Days
02-23-2007, 6:40 PM
To answer a few questions that were posted:

1) I had the bottom ear supported by a block of wood and the top ear supported by the trigger guard. I actually hammered (with a hammer) on this pin for a very long time and didn't give up until it was all the way through the guard and into the opposite ear. The pin ended up only a tiny bit inside the opposite ear, and was mushroomed on the end that I was hammering. I was actually very surprised it didn't break when I was "installing" it. The trouble came on the following evening when I attempted to tap it out from the other side using a 1/8 inch puch. Even though it was totally supported the same way it was during installation, it just couldn't take another 10 minutes of pounding. I still can't get the pin out of the guard and I've been using pliers, hammers, punches and a drill.

2) Amazingly that detent was the easiest/simplest part of the build... Really nothing to fuss about and no tools required... if you're careful.

3) I called RRA and they asked if I could mail it to them, but once I told them I lived in CA the conversation ended. Honestly it was totally my fault (I really pounded on this thing hard) and I have no problem paying for another... I just can't seem to find anybody who has them.

4) I'm going to attempt a weld. Attached is another pic.

Technical Ted
02-23-2007, 6:41 PM
BTW Use multiple light taps rather than a couple of hard hits. It may take a little longer, but you'll put less stress on the ears.:D

Lunar Days
02-23-2007, 6:52 PM
The other thing you cuold do is, insert the pin into the broken peice. Then drive that pin into the receiver. Then have it tig welded. And just sand off excess weld and repaint it. Good as new.

For my lower build, I toss all the roll pins into the freezer to shrink it a bit and when i'm ready i just insert with slight pressure. And i warm up my lower receiver in the toaster oven. Works like a charm.

This pin will never be "inserted" in anything again. I can't even get it out of the trigger guard.

Also, I may be wrong... but I really think either the pin was too big, or the hole in the guard was too small. (and I've read on other sites that some lower parts kits have out-of-spec roll pins and/or trigger guards) I'm telling you - this thing did not fit, and I forced it in there by hammering on it with a lot of force, for about 10 minutes (enough force to mushroom the end of the pin).

Tzvia
02-23-2007, 7:04 PM
+1 light taps. I use a .99c store brass tap hammer for all the pins. Works great and doesn't chew up the pin end. I bang directly on it to start the trigger guard pin, then use a roll pin punch once it starts. Something about brass, the energy of the hit just transfers better, less jarring I guess. Whatever it is, it works better than steel. And better than rubber. I was a big spender, bought 10 of them since they also are great for drifting sights and small jobs about the house. I use a small metal block covered in rubberised cloth to support the ear, with the lower in a wood vise.

So if any of you have a .99c store nearby, stop in; you may get lucky and find perfect tap hammers :D .

Bummer about the ear.

aileron
02-23-2007, 8:05 PM
Yea, weld it, take all the old finish off and then refinish it, if you get it welded up right, no one will be the wiser. Also, you might want to open up the hole a tee bit with a drill that you hand turn, if you have the same tapping problem next time.

That hurts to look at. Must of been frustrating to experience. Hope it ends well.

Prince50
02-23-2007, 8:36 PM
+1 on the magpull fix.

Other option is to remove the pin with vice grips, not a hammer, then reinstall a correct pin from the other side.

After that is done, JB weld or superglue the broken ear back on, smooth and touch up paint. The TG does not really need the pin to go through both ears to be fine.

I too use the Channel Lock and electrical tape. I never use a hammer on that pin.

Darin

steve2071
02-23-2007, 8:38 PM
I know it's kind of after the fact, but for the next time, I usually find that it works out pretty well to place the trigger guard inside the ears first before you start pounding away. I've built a few lowers so far and that hasn't caused me any problems.

ldivinag
02-23-2007, 8:42 PM
Some people tape up the receiver and a pair of Vice-grips to gently squeeze the pin through the hole.


that's what i did for the trigger guard and the bolt release pins...

crossing fingers for the rest of the OLL builds...

xenophobe
02-23-2007, 8:45 PM
I know it's kind of after the fact, but for the next time, I usually find that it works out pretty well to place the trigger guard inside the ears first before you start pounding away. I've built a few lowers so far and that hasn't caused me any problems.

The trigger guard should always be in place before you start tapping the roll pin in.

And yes, small light taps work best. No need to force the thing in, you will mushroom the end and cause the pin to widen, not collapse the way it should...

NeoWeird
02-24-2007, 12:47 AM
Another thing to keep in mind about aluminum is that it is not like steel in that it can take repeated abuse over and over and over...

Steel can take the stress and flexes back, aluminum will slowly absorb the stress and eventually break. If you took a Steel I-bean that could support 10 tons of weight and you attach 9 tons it will hold, essentially, forever. Take an aluminum I-bean that can support 10 tons and put 1 ton on it and it will eventually just fail. Airliners learned this the hard way when the repeated flexing of the hulls from the frequent changes in airpressure from altitude changes would eventually cause the hulls to simply fail and be ripped apart exposing the passengers. Not exactly a friendly flight you want people to remember.

That being said, if you are installing ANY part on your AR and it is taking force you should REALLY stop and check WHY. Now with the anodizing I am not sure how it will react as a whole, but small parts on the AR will slowly absorb that stress and eventually fail, as you learned. As said you most likely mushroomed the pin, causing it to swell, and you locked it in place. Throw it away and replace the pin. Welding it, or grinding off the other to match and using the Magpul grip are your two best options. If I were you, I'd get it rewelded, blasted, send it off to someone to put a custom engraving on it and re-anodize it (you're already paying to get it cleaned up and re-anodizing, might as well do something custom and get something cool out of it).

Chasing the hole, oil, soft constant pressure, etc. are all great ideas. Wailing away is NEVER a good idea. Also, using a pair of needle nose pliers on the inserting edge and lightly squeezing it as it goes in is a great idea. This is just another great example of why the right tools make all the difference in the world - they were invented and gain popularity for a reason.

Sorry to hear it all went bad for you, you've heard enough advice, now just pick a route and stick to it. Good luck.

Lunar Days
02-25-2007, 4:00 PM
NEOWEIRD... excellent information and advice. THANK YOU!

HUTCH 7.62
02-25-2007, 7:46 PM
total bummer man but, F#$* it, who says you need a trigger guard anyway.

mow
02-25-2007, 9:55 PM
You can use a Magpul grip with an attached trigger guard.

This might be your best bet ...

Also next time use tape (duct or electrical) and a pair of vise grips ands inch the pin in. The vice method posted above sounds good also.

I didn't use a hammer on any of my lower builds precisely because I was afraid of something similar occuring to me.

Ratters
02-25-2007, 10:48 PM
I use the electrical tape and channel lock method. But first I start the roll pin by squeezing it with a set of pliers to reduce the diameter and place it in the hole. Once the roll pin is started in the hole, I switch to the tape and channel locks. I use DPMS LPKs.


I've used the channel lock method on 5 builds without a problem. Tried driving the first one in for about two minutes before giving up and using the plier method. Worked much easier. Do it with the bolt stop pin too, though sometimes I do scratch the reciever. But the aluma black pen fixes that right up. ;)

I will never use another DPMS parts kit though. On two of them they sent defective roll pins which were in effect just tubes. Had to go to the hardware store to buy replacements. Plus I've been much happier with the triggers from my Del-ton kits.

Lunar Days
02-27-2007, 7:40 PM
I visited a local welder today and unfortunately he told me it couldn't be done. Even on the lowest setting, the TIG welder would heat up the receiver so much that the little ear would turn to liquid before it could be attached. He gave me a little demonstration, too. The ear is just too small/thin.

I was thinking about possibly trying to send it back to RRA again... what if I gave it to a friend (sheriff's deputy). Assuming they would replace it, would they ship it to him? Or... perhaps if I gave it to him and he worked through his department to get it replaced.... is that an option?

At this point I'd be happy to shell out the money for another RRA lower... I just can't seem to find any.:(

NeoWeird
03-01-2007, 1:16 AM
I think you may need to seek another welder then. Sheet metal doesn't get welded by magic, and seeing as how you can find aluminum containers with tig welded sides I am going to lean towards saying SOMEONE out there can do it properly. It may not be able to do it all in one pass, but then again you are paying to get it done so that is their problem and not yours.

I'd seek another welder's opinion before you brush off welding all together. The welder may have just not wanted to deal with it, or didn't want the hassle of such a small job and gave you a BS reason why they wouldn't do it.

taquito971
03-01-2007, 6:24 AM
After reading this again, here's what you should do:
Buy the trigger guard you absolutely love
Get a new roll pin
attach the new trigger guard to the remaining ear
Mix up some JB weld
Add JB weld to the broken ear
glue and attach the broken ear to the roll pin
Smooth it out
Be done with it. Maybe some flat black barbeque paint.

Brian