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View Full Version : Group Buy - - - LAND! Has anyone done this?


redrex
11-15-2011, 3:36 PM
Ok, so this has been buzzing around in my head for a long time. I'm stuck here in the East Bay area, I can not move. End of story, or is it.

I've seen some large plots of land for sale in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada's. Has anyone ever thought about putting together a group buy on a 1,000 acres of so. So has anyone done this? The weird laws in CA just seem so F'd up. I looked up some land the other day and they said, not zoned for housing? In other words you could buy 80 acres but no live on it? WTF? And if you can't "build" on it. What about camping? Or better yet Yurts!

OHOD
11-15-2011, 5:50 PM
Ok, so this has been buzzing around in my head for a long time. I'm stuck here in the East Bay area, I can not move. End of story, or is it.

I've seen some large plots of land for sale in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada's. Has anyone ever thought about putting together a group buy on a 1,000 acres of so. So has anyone done this? The weird laws in CA just seem so F'd up. I looked up some land the other day and they said, not zoned for housing? In other words you could buy 80 acres but no live on it? WTF? And if you can't "build" on it. What about camping? Or better yet Yurts!

I bought some land in Florida to build my retirement home, but in the meantime it's a bug out location. A bug out location 3200 miles away :facepalm:

OHOD
11-15-2011, 5:51 PM
Just know where your public access BLM lands are :thumbsup:

I've already got my bug out location picked out, for the summer anyway. Winter, well that's a different story. But then again, I think I'll just stay in my apartment.

Eljay
11-15-2011, 7:00 PM
If you look at land ads you'll see all kinds of variations - approved for one house, approved for two houses, approved for one house but they haven't done a perc test so you may or may not be able to put in a septic system. There's no power, there's no water, the only road is private and locked but they have to provide access. It's endless.

problemchild
11-15-2011, 8:31 PM
Ive seen some tax lien sales on land that would blow your mind. Basically its free after paying a few hundred dollars.

wheels
11-15-2011, 9:04 PM
Land with water rights is going to be important as the population increases. Maybe you don't build houses - just barns, comfortable secure barns.

chris
11-15-2011, 9:31 PM
Land with water rights is going to be important as the population increases. Maybe you don't build houses - just barns, comfortable secure barns.

very secure barns.;)

wash
11-15-2011, 9:49 PM
The plan I have is to help my friend build his log cabin up in the hills and then bug out to his place.

He's got clean water, diesel generators and plenty of space to store food and ammo.

So far I helped him do a little clearing, move in a container, pull conduit, some roofing work, skylight installs and board it up for winter.

There is plenty more work to do and no bathroom yet. But when it's done I'll get to use it on occasion and keep it as a bugout location.

the_natterjack
11-15-2011, 10:31 PM
Real,real important. Find out what kind of fees the county is charging to build a home. In some instances it runs close to $100k.

How about buying a small town. It's already incorporated so no extortion from the county, make it business and growth friendly, nice happy community.

Brian

Ripon83
11-16-2011, 3:27 AM
Having your own town does not defend you from county extortion...county seats still want control and dictate a good deal - particularly city annexation of lands for growth.

The OP has a valid idea but when you start sharing things (land) you create a lot of potential issues. Its best done by small mutual aid groups then on a mass scale....someone buys in, shows up, and has nothing....they are a burden on the group one way or another.



Real,real important. Find out what kind of fees the county is charging to build a home. In some instances it runs close to $100k.

How about buying a small town. It's already incorporated so no extortion from the county, make it business and growth friendly, nice happy community.

Brian

swilson
11-16-2011, 9:30 AM
Just because it isn't zoned for residential doesn't mean you can't get it changed, or live on it. A friend of mine has property near the border, and you need something like 80 acres to be able to build a house there (has just under the minimum currently) but got around it by building a "storage structure" with a fresh-water well and an outhouse. Other friends of mine in the desert in Imperial county have a small plot of land, aren't supposed to build residental structures but them and their neighbors all live in trailers.

The key here is that if you can't get the zoning changed, or changed easily, you can still probably (check codes) build "storage" structures or leave a cheap RV or large trailer on the land itself and get away with it. However getting hooked up to public utilities (power, sewer, phone, gas), if even available might be difficult. A lot of people end up having solar/wind power and run off deep-cycle batteries.

emc002
11-16-2011, 9:48 AM
Search for the old thread about everyone moving to Alpine county and taking it over (via the electoral process). Kind of the same idea...

wheels
11-16-2011, 10:00 AM
Just because it isn't zoned for residential doesn't mean you can't get it changed, or live on it. A friend of mine has property near the border, and you need something like 80 acres to be able to build a house there (has just under the minimum currently) but got around it by building a "storage structure" with a fresh-water well and an outhouse. Other friends of mine in the desert in Imperial county have a small plot of land, aren't supposed to build residental structures but them and their neighbors all live in trailers.

The key here is that if you can't get the zoning changed, or changed easily, you can still probably (check codes) build "storage" structures or leave a cheap RV or large trailer on the land itself and get away with it. However getting hooked up to public utilities (power, sewer, phone, gas), if even available might be difficult. A lot of people end up having solar/wind power and run off deep-cycle batteries.

There were some recent threads about LA county clearing out people in the desert areas of the county that had been there many years in some cases.

I looked at a property up by Lake Isabella - 4 bedroom house with 100 acres in the mid $300k range. That gives you the existing water, sewer and electric. Bring some shipping containers or build cabins for an extended group. Hell create it legally as a time share and get a caretaker up there. I'd be down for$20k and some monthly coin to have a BOL within a couple hour drive.

Knight_Who_Says_Ni
11-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Ive seen some tax lien sales on land that would blow your mind. Basically its free after paying a few hundred dollars.

? Interested to hear more...

OHOD
11-16-2011, 4:18 PM
My property is zoned agriculture.
On many of the lots, I've seen nothing but a barn.

thenodnarb
11-16-2011, 4:31 PM
Ok, so this has been buzzing around in my head for a long time. I'm stuck here in the East Bay area, I can not move. End of story, or is it.

I've seen some large plots of land for sale in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada's. Has anyone ever thought about putting together a group buy on a 1,000 acres of so. So has anyone done this? The weird laws in CA just seem so F'd up. I looked up some land the other day and they said, not zoned for housing? In other words you could buy 80 acres but no live on it? WTF? And if you can't "build" on it. What about camping? Or better yet Yurts!

you should look at Oregon. There are some very cheap lots up there in some areas. undeveloped lots that are zoned for houses can be had for 1k per acre. Only a 4 hour drive or so from the bay.

benbarker
11-16-2011, 7:58 PM
I have 153 acres land in eastern washington,50 min above spokane,45 min to B.C. border,Idiho border 10 min away,old well,elec through property,paved plowed in winter road frontage,for sale if anybody is interested,or if sombody wants to lease or go in on building a bug out camp im down,two streams and two beaver ponds also,14 hr drive from sacramento,ca,p.m. me thanks

chrisw
11-16-2011, 8:01 PM
Dear god you must drive fast...:oji:

you should look at Oregon. There are some very cheap lots up there in some areas. undeveloped lots that are zoned for houses can be had for 1k per acre. Only a 4 hour drive or so from the bay.

Nessal
11-16-2011, 8:41 PM
Someone tried to do this before on calguns. It was for something like 150 acres in northern Nevada. I was actually in but it fell through.


But one thing to think about. If SHTF, what makes you think that it's your land anymore?

thenodnarb
11-16-2011, 9:17 PM
Dear god you must drive fast...:oji:

Heh, Now that I think about it I totally screwed that up. Oregon is a 13 hour drive for me from socal, and the bay is around 8 if I'm making good time. and with traffic, I imagine it would be more like 6 from the bay. sorry. :o

swilson
11-16-2011, 10:13 PM
But one thing to think about. If SHTF, what makes you think that it's your land anymore?

Land is only yours as long as you are defending it harder than somebody else is trying to take it. If you and 99 others did a group buy on 100 acres of land, then SHTF and others tried to take your land, you'd want those other 99 of the group to participate in defending the land you all invested in.

Ripon83
11-16-2011, 10:50 PM
This is true until 12 or 15 of the 99 others decide to get together in the middle of the night and eliminate their competition for resources.....ugh....smaller groups the better.

Decent parcels of 160 acres or less in Northern Nevada for under $30k.

redrex
11-16-2011, 10:52 PM
But one thing to think about. If SHTF, what makes you think that it's your land anymore?

As has been noted. Friends :) and preparation.

As to location? Well the rule of thumb is one full tank of gas. But that is a pretty decent range. In CA I think it's more limited by time and less by range.

1. I'm in Oakland and getting out of the bay will take long enough as it is. Anyone anywhere near a big city will be in the same pickle.

2. Oregon is nice and all but snow isn't something that I want to deal with. There are a few shtf scenarios where temps could drop drastically for years. Anywhere in a snow belt will just get that much worse.

3. I would so prefer to be in Nevada. But... there had to be a but right? But... if things got bad who wants to have to go over Donner pass? I've driven it in some bad weather and it's not fun. Just ask the Donners. And I'm not a big fan of Murphy but he makes the law, not me. You know what will happen. Stuff will go down, it will be January and it will be the biggest snow of the season. It's just too big an obstacle/choke point to put between me and my family.

4. So that leaves us on this side of the Sierra Nevada's. Now the question is, foot hills or coastal. I'd have to say that foothills would be the safer bet?

So how about someplace, equal distance between LA and SF... like say near Sequoia National Park?

My thoughts are, low enough to avoid hard snows and freezing. I grew up in the snow belt and can tell you that frozen pipes will ruin your whole day. But high enough to avoid too much of that central valley heat.

Also I like the idea of being close to a national park like that. If things got bad, say federal problems, then you can beat feet to the hills :)

I'll be honest. I've only been there once. Went to the park, nice place. But as the area around it? I don't know, you guys tell me.

redrex
11-16-2011, 11:24 PM
Ok, well I have been batting this idea around a lot lately. I spend about 3 hours in the car every day so I have some time to mull stuff like this over. It's better then plotting to kill the moron in the Prius who just cut me off.

So the dilemma I put to myself was... Lets take it as fact that no one involved will be independently wealthy. Ok? Alright, moving on.

1. So how do you buy land on a budget and make your dollars go as far as possible?
2. Once you have the land, how do you build on it for cheap?
3. Once you have your basic housing how do you get water and power?
4. Once you have everything how do you afford running costs and yearly taxes?

Well the how do you buy on a budget has several parts. You pool your money with like minded folks. And then you bargain shop. Forclosures? Auctions? Tax liens? Knocking on doors and making offers. I once bought a duplex for $2 just by doing that.

Building has as many solution as there are days in the year. My favorite as mentioned before is Yurts. Don't worry it will make sense soon.

As to power and water? Well water rights as mentioned are a huge issue. Power, I'd say that solar and wind would be the primary choices. But I'm open.

Now how to keep this going. Things break, need to be replaced and then there is taxes.

So here is my Machiavellian plan: So Yurts, lots of yurts. A small vineyard. Organic farming of heirloom crops. And how to pay for it... Tourists! I kid you not. There are all sorts of people who would pay good money to escape SF, LA or SD to get away for a week or even just a weekend and wind down at a nice organic vineyard and sleep in cozy yurts.

All those liberals we love to mock would pay us. I just love irony when it works out for me :)


Is it a perfect plan? Of course, it's brilliant. Ok, so it could use some tweaking.

Stormfeather
11-17-2011, 1:00 AM
Someone tried to do this before on calguns. It was for something like 150 acres in northern Nevada. I was actually in but it fell through.


But one thing to think about. If SHTF, what makes you think that it's your land anymore?

Yes, somebody did try this, it was me! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=88145
I ended up purchasing the property myself and forgoing all the grief and hassle that trying to help others out with a BOL entails. I went so far as to create a trust for it and was willing to include members in on the trust. If they decided at some point to opt out, then they would have been removed as members of the trust. Simple plan, purchase the property, members paid a monthly fee to the trust to pay off the property, and any updates or improvements was paid for by members. Everyone got to use the property for camping/shooting and ultimately, it was going to be designed as a BOL for everyone if the time/occasion ever reared its ugly head. Too many folks kept telling me what they were going to do once they got in on the deal, and they didnt care what other folks who bought in thought about the process. So to alleviate this issue, I purchased it outright, and now a few trusted fellow CGN'ers who have expressed a desire to help out have a BOL if they ever need it. Myself, since Im now stationed out in the midwest, will probably never use it as a BOL, but im in the process of setting up another one out here. Worse comes to worse, I will end up selling it and giving the CGN'ers the option to buy it first. It was a great idea I think, maybe just a little too ahead of its time when the idea was first presented. Now, it seems that others are thinking the way I was 4-5 years ago!

swilson
11-17-2011, 12:45 PM
1. So how do you buy land on a budget and make your dollars go as far as possible?

Like you said a tax lien or forclosure would be the cheapest. However I looked on craigslist and a seller in Imperial County has 100 undeveloped acres and selling them for $1000/per. Buying all 100 acres might make an offer, say $75K, sound tempting especially if paying with cash money and in this bad economy.


2. Once you have the land, how do you build on it for cheap?

Buy a cheap old motorhome or trailer for a couple hundred dollars that can make it to your new property, don't bother registering or smogging or insuring it, park it and put it up on blocks on a concrete pad. Caulk all the seams with silicone, paint with exterior paint, and it should last at least a couple decades. Put a roof structure over it and it'll last even longer. Not very pretty but it sure is a very quick, very easy, very cheap solution, won't be considered a permanant structure by local officials, already comes with beds, bathroom, kitchenette, seating and storage, and can be inexpensively beefed up with lumber and plywood to make it more zombie-resistant.

Speaking of security if that's a high priority you can get 40' shipping containers for under $3000, though you'd have to pay more to have a truck driver deliver it to your property and they're just a blank empty steel box. People actually make houses out of them too, google it.


3. Once you have your basic housing how do you get water and power?

Solar and wind are the way to go with deep cycle batteries, since fuel won't be available for generators in a breakdown of society. However solar panels and wind turbines lose efficency and break, don't last forever, and won't be manufactured when S is still hitting the fan. Get used to living like it's the American Civil War, using hand tools and making your own candles.

Water can be drilled for, and without a well or a constant river you may as well not even have property to live on. Before you look into properties in an area see if there are surveys for the water table and how clean it is, and ask around on neighboring properties how deep they had to drill. Remember that wells are very expensive to drill especially in steep terrain and deep down, and needs to be done before an emergency, because if social order is breaking down nobody is going to drill a 200' well on a hill in the middle of nowhere.

4. Once you have everything how do you afford running costs and yearly taxes?
Assuming you paid little for the property your taxes shouldn't be very much. If you own a business you can always look into having your business own the property for "storage" and write off as much as you can get away with.

Ripon83
11-17-2011, 1:05 PM
You said it all quite well.

The batteries you would likely use with solar will only last 5 to 7 years. The panels can last 25 years or more. The ideal and I mean "ideal" property would have hydro available but its quite rare and the land owner probably knows what they have so the price will go up on the ground. Just having the water raises the property value because without it - its worthless.

Think defensible too. I have a friend that bought some desert property near mine, he's got a spring, and its all good but the land mass is so flat and open he'd have to worry about people with a long range weapon. That bites.


Like you said a tax lien or forclosure would be the cheapest. However I looked on craigslist and a seller in Imperial County has 100 undeveloped acres and selling them for $1000/per. Buying all 100 acres might make an offer, say $75K, sound tempting especially if paying with cash money and in this bad economy.


Buy a cheap old motorhome or trailer for a couple hundred dollars that can make it to your new property, don't bother registering or smogging or insuring it, park it and put it up on blocks on a concrete pad. Caulk all the seams with silicone, paint with exterior paint, and it should last at least a couple decades. Put a roof structure over it and it'll last even longer. Not very pretty but it sure is a very quick, very easy, very cheap solution, won't be considered a permanant structure by local officials, already comes with beds, bathroom, kitchenette, seating and storage, and can be inexpensively beefed up with lumber and plywood to make it more zombie-resistant.

Speaking of security if that's a high priority you can get 40' shipping containers for under $3000, though you'd have to pay more to have a truck driver deliver it to your property and they're just a blank empty steel box. People actually make houses out of them too, google it.


Solar and wind are the way to go with deep cycle batteries, since fuel won't be available for generators in a breakdown of society. However solar panels and wind turbines lose efficency and break, don't last forever, and won't be manufactured when S is still hitting the fan. Get used to living like it's the American Civil War, using hand tools and making your own candles.

Water can be drilled for, and without a well or a constant river you may as well not even have property to live on. Before you look into properties in an area see if there are surveys for the water table and how clean it is, and ask around on neighboring properties how deep they had to drill. Remember that wells are very expensive to drill especially in steep terrain and deep down, and needs to be done before an emergency, because if social order is breaking down nobody is going to drill a 200' well on a hill in the middle of nowhere.


Assuming you paid little for the property your taxes shouldn't be very much. If you own a business you can always look into having your business own the property for "storage" and write off as much as you can get away with.

wash
11-17-2011, 1:30 PM
If you want to buy unimproved land, you need a lot of cash in hand, I've heard banks will finance only 50% of the price and that's if you can get a loan which may not happen these days.

Solar and wind are not reliable enough for me but treated diesel fuel will last a while and you can go bio-diesel if you run out.

In a wooded area, you want a wood stove for cooking and heating and that leaves your generator for pumping water out of your well and occasional power tool usage. A couple drums of fuel will last a long time.

Water is the key in my mind, having a 3,000 gallon+ tank is a good idea.

As for location, I don't want anything within 20 miles of a military target, it should be out of the way and hard to find and it's real nice if the roads and geography make it easy to defend. If it takes a full tank of gas to get there, it's too far. Bicycle range is better.

I could get to my friend's place in three days or less if I am on foot, less than a day on a bike and if the roads are clear, less than an hour by car.

If your bugout location is 200 miles away and the roads are too messed up to drive, it might take you five days by bike or a couple weeks on foot, that means you have to leave most of your gear behind and hopefully you're set up to do that kind of hike. Make sure you keep everything you are going to need at the bugout location because you might not be able to bring anything with you.

Bugging out close by has another benefit, if you have to move fast to get out and leave gear behind, if things settle down after a while, you can go back to get it.

10 guns and 15,000 rounds of ammo won't do you any good if it's 200 miles away.

xrMike
11-18-2011, 1:10 PM
Someone tried to do this before on calguns. It was for something like 150 acres in northern Nevada. I was actually in but it fell through.
But one thing to think about. If SHTF, what makes you think that it's your land anymore?There was another guy trying to do this and was looking at a big piece of land/ranch in San Juan Bautista area (near central coast)... I don't remember what eventually happened, or what his username was.

I guess the only land that is truly yours in that scenario is what you can defend.

Chaparral
11-20-2011, 1:03 PM
BTDT. Not crazy about trying it again, unless its a cash purchase with no financing and I know more about the psychological strengths and weaknesses of each co-investor.

There's a lot of tricky legal issues, such as type of ownership. We looked at LLC, 501c3 nonprofit, Tenants in Common.. There are advantages and disadvantages to each.

Leverage is also a tricky issue. If a bunch of folks all kick in for a down payment and manage to get financing for the rest, what happens when a percentage of those buyers lose their jobs and are unable to keep up with their share of the mortgage payments?

If a bunch of folks contribute down payments in varying sizes, how are the % contributions to the monthly mortgage payments to be set up? If one buyer contributes the lions share of the downpayment, will that person contribute to the lion's share of each monthly mortgage payment? What happens if he loses his job or his business tanks when his clients checks start bouncing?

What about improvements to the property? Work parties? Sweat equity?

What if 10 people buy in and six of them are pacifist hippies, two are "middle of the road", one is a gun nut and the last is a gun nut for which his hammer is the gun and every problem looks like a nail? How do you handle differences like that?

What if 10 people buy into a piece of land capable of supporting 40 individuals sustainably but then everyone shows up with 8 relatives and refugees when SHTF? Who decides who stays and who walks? Or do y'all just wanna stay, hold hands and sing Kumbayaa while you all slowly starve to death?

Nope. I say BTDT five years ago...wish I hadn't...but the story ain't done yet. Not optimistic about its conclusion tho.

Dutch3
11-20-2011, 2:33 PM
If the property isn't zoned for "residential", but is 50 miles from anywhere, you could always just "occupy" it. Who's going to complain?

My intended BOL is maybe 40 miles from here, but takes over 2 hours to reach via unimproved/4WD roads. And that's if there is no snow. The only problem is that I don't own it. The owners won't turn me away, as I can pull my weight, but that may not always be the case.

I would rather have a place of my own.