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View Full Version : poor mans machine gun (is it legal?)


pksbshp
02-21-2007, 8:27 AM
Just saw something interesting on you tube, I think you guys will enjoy. Is this even legal???

go to this link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ&mode=related&search=

Matt C
02-21-2007, 8:38 AM
Actually it does the same thing as a very heavy trigger spring, which is really all it is. I can't see how that would be illegal, he still has to use his finger to manipulate the trigger with every shot.

Gunsrruss
02-21-2007, 8:39 AM
I see a big run on rubber bands. I will have to try this with .223:eek:

Hunter
02-21-2007, 8:42 AM
Actually here is the BATF letter on it:

" The term bump-fire is a vernacular used in the firearms culture and is not defined in either the Gun Control Act of 1968 or the NFA. For present purposed, FTB will regard the term as meaning rapid manual trigger manipulation to simulate automatic fire. As long as " you " must " consciously " pull the trigger for each shot of the "bump-fire" operation, you are simply firing a semiautomatic weapon in a rapid manner and are not violating any federal firearms laws or regulations."


http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/images/ATF%20Letter.jpg

jerryb78
02-21-2007, 8:54 AM
very informative info. useful to a point. would never try in in california. but very informative. thx for posting.

Spiggy
02-21-2007, 9:07 AM
at one point, didn't the ATF say that a 10inch shoelace was a machine gun?

Matt C
02-21-2007, 9:21 AM
how do you figure? he pulls the trigger once and it fires more than 1 shot.


No, it doesn't. This is what happens:

1. He pulls the trigger, and the rifle moves backward (recoil).
2. The trigger resets due to lack of finger pressure(no trigger pulling).
3. He pulls the rifle forward by the foregrip and his finger puts pressure on the trigger again(trigger pulling).

The above can occur very rapidly, simulating full auto fire, but at no time is the rifle firing more than one shot with out a seperate pressure on the trigger using only the finger. This violates no laws.

The rubber band does not pull the trigger in any way, in fact it pulls in the opposite direction, making the trigger harder to pull. It cannot therefore be a multiburst trigger activator, since it does not activate the trigger. What it does, is aid in trigger reset, which is also the function of the trigger spring. This is basically a external trigger spring. If it is illegal, so is the one on the inside.

at one point, didn't the ATF say that a 10inch shoelace was a machine gun?

Well if you attach it in a certain way, which I won't post because I don't feel like replacing the hinges on my front door, it IS a machine gun PART, and the weapon it's attached to is a machine gun. If the shoelace is pulled by the action of the gun, and pulls the trigger itself, repeatedly, with no human trigger pulling, it IS a machine gun.

CalNRA
02-21-2007, 9:21 AM
I'm so doing that next time I go to Los Altos on the tin can range.

Hunter
02-21-2007, 9:22 AM
how do you figure? he pulls the trigger once and it fires more than 1 shot. ..

This is not correct. In order to bumpfire, the trigger has to be pulled each and everytime. Even the BATF agrees if you read the letter posted above.

Hunter
02-21-2007, 9:26 AM
at one point, didn't the ATF say that a 10inch shoelace was a machine gun?

Yes they did, but in that case the shooter pulled once (1x) on the ring attached to the string to initiate firing. As long as the tension was held on the ring, the gun continued to fire. So in that case the "trigger" was actually defined as the "ring" tied to the string and not the gun's normal trigger. Therefore the "ring" was now the machinegun. If no ring was present, then the "trigger" became the string. Eitherway it fell under the definition of machinegun since only one pull of the "trigger" was needed.

http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/images/untitled.JPG

THIS IS A MACHINEGUN IN THE EYES OF THE ATF ---HIGHLY ILLEGAL TO HAVE IN THIS CONFIGURATION.

Cali-V
02-21-2007, 9:56 AM
Interesting so with the rubber band, recoil resets the trigger, and with my finger in position the forward pressure from the foregrip fires another round... quickly...
Hum interesting....

Tweak338
02-21-2007, 10:15 AM
Ahah! now i know the rubberband trick

i need to go visit my unlcle in WA and bump my 30 and 40 rounders

Sugarfoot47
02-21-2007, 10:38 AM
Yea, that guy posted the rubberband trick some time ago on AR15.com in the pistol-caliber AR section. If you go back quite a few months you should be able to pick up his old videos firing it with and without a suppressor. My only concern is that the 9mm AR's can(and have) fire out-of-battery even more so than it's 223 counterpart since they use a direct blowback system. I've already witnessed an OOB with another guy's AR while bump firing so I'm not about to take the plunge into the P.M.M.G. craze.

xenophobe
02-21-2007, 1:28 PM
Not this rubber band crap again.... :rolleyes:


The rubber band does not pull the trigger in any way, in fact it pulls in the opposite direction, making the trigger harder to pull.

Correct.



It cannot therefore be a multiburst trigger activator, since it does not activate the trigger.

Wrong.

The Hellfire multi-burst trigger activator places extra resistance on the trigger, in the exact same fashion that a rubber band in that video does.

I would avoid doing this.

THE 0NE
02-21-2007, 1:29 PM
it looks fun ha ha

ibbryn
02-21-2007, 2:25 PM
That looks really stupid.
He looks like a wannabe.
The rubber band should be black, to match his rifle.

jumbopanda
02-21-2007, 3:18 PM
Bah, it may not be illegal but I got yelled at for doing it at Burro Canyon. :(

tujungatoes
02-21-2007, 3:22 PM
I would think that without an autoseasr mechanism to hold the hammer back till the bolt comes fully closed would be dangerous. hammer strikes firing pin on an open bolt...boom!! Screw legal. I dont think its safe.

kap
02-21-2007, 3:37 PM
Bah, it may not be illegal but I got yelled at for doing it at Burro Canyon. :(
Bummer, I have wanted to try this just for fun and Burro is one of the best places as far as open space. Oh well.

jumbopanda
02-21-2007, 5:04 PM
Bummer, I have wanted to try this just for fun and Burro is one of the best places as far as open space. Oh well.

Yea he said I was "firing full auto"...and later he got mad at me again for just pulling the trigger too fast. :mad:

Matt C
02-21-2007, 5:51 PM
Yea he said I was "firing full auto"...and later he got mad at me again for just pulling the trigger too fast. :mad:

Were you on the line or at a private range? I ask because I have never really SEEN a range officer on a private range, much less had one tell me how to shoot.

Bolt2Bounce
02-21-2007, 8:13 PM
So I guess my finger is now a NFA part. LOL. Nice pic of the shoes lace trick. LOL. I'd love to see some one on the range with that contraption. I guess were just lucky all the cops are not given the same free run as The ATF. It would be funny. "the speed limits sign is posted at 45, but I think you going 35 was too fast here is your ticket"
They just make up rules as they go along. I wonder how they get away with is... :confused: do they make up regulations as they go along in their other regulated fields also. :rolleyes: B2B

Matt C
02-21-2007, 8:26 PM
I guess were just lucky all the cops are not given the same free run as The ATF. It would be funny. "the speed limits sign is posted at 45, but I think you going 35 was too fast here is your ticket"


Actually, we can do that, it's just that most street cops are not JBTs looking to bust someone for no reason, we know there are plenty of people out there who are really breaking the law and we don't need to harrass innocent folks.:cool:

Turbinator
02-23-2007, 2:14 PM
I would think that without an autoseasr mechanism to hold the hammer back till the bolt comes fully closed would be dangerous. hammer strikes firing pin on an open bolt...boom!! Screw legal. I dont think its safe.

I don't think this is a concern if he is using the semi-auto lower parts kit. The semi LPK does prevent the hammer from falling unless the bolt carrier is forward, or so I believe.

Anyone comment on this?

Turby

Mr. Beretta
02-23-2007, 4:49 PM
Thanks!

I just went to my local Walmart and was told they stopped carrying rubber bands.

Thanks!

Oswald2001
03-20-2007, 8:13 AM
I was at Burro Canyon one time and bump firing from the shoulder.

The RO asked me to stop because people have heard 'simulated-auto fire' and called the Sheriff before.

The political climate in SoCal is not pro-gun, so, we must be wise in what we do at gun ranges. There are many people who want to shut down ALL ranges, starting with the outdoor ranges on public land that have private management.

Also, even if you know what you are doing, the gang bangers get the idea and then run crazy with it.

I certainly do understand the RO's concerns.


It's kind of a miracle that we have Burro Canyon anyway. We sure don't want to lose it.

JPN6336
03-20-2007, 8:18 AM
Gang bangers are more likely than any of us to have full-auto weapons so I don't think we need to worry about them learning to bump fire. We need to be more concerned with the gang bangers that join the military and then get out and teach their fellow bangers how to shoot and employ sound tactics.

bwiese
03-20-2007, 8:53 AM
There is a rifle stock for 10/22s (?) that is said to enhance bump firing.

The BATF approved it, and then retracted it.

Also, anything in CA that could be considered to be a 'trigger activator' (like those Hellfire springy things) is illegal in CA.

50 Freak
03-20-2007, 9:05 AM
I remember when those Hellfire trigger activators were still legal in CA.

Man that was fun to dump a AK drum in 2-3 seconds.

CA doesn't allow us to do anything fun anymore. :(

thefurball
03-20-2007, 9:17 AM
Even now Sen. DiFi and Ms. Boxer are no doubt crafting legislation to further protect us from ourselves, outlawing the evil rubber band for mere citizens, allowing only politicians and members of the state run militia to have them, moving us one step closer to their glorious vision of the all seeing, all knowing government taking care of our every need from cradle to grave.

50 Freak
03-20-2007, 9:59 AM
Quick everyone run out and buy as many rubber bands as possible.

We must be ready to register them when the DOJ opens registration.

thefurball
03-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Don't get caught with a rubber tree/plant in your back yard... "intent to manufacture".

Shane916
03-20-2007, 10:13 AM
Don't get caught with a rubber tree/plant in your back yard... "intent to manufacture".

I planted it before 2000 :D

soopafly
03-20-2007, 4:00 PM
Yes they did, but in that case the shooter pulled once (1x) on the ring attached to the string to initiate firing. As long as the tension was held on the ring, the gun continued to fire. So in that case the "trigger" was actually defined as the "ring" tied to the string and not the gun's normal trigger. Therefore the "ring" was now the machinegun. If no ring was present, then the "trigger" became the string. Eitherway it fell under the definition of machinegun since only one pull of the "trigger" was needed.

http://www.poormansmachinegun.com/images/untitled.JPG

THIS IS A MACHINEGUN IN THE EYES OF THE ATF ---HIGHLY ILLEGAL TO HAVE IN THIS CONFIGURATION.

so would a Mini-14, shoestring and keyring constitute "constructive possesion?"

jfk
03-21-2007, 12:34 AM
If you get caught doing this, tell the cops you owned the rubber band before 2000 and it's pre-ban.

If the officer does not find this amusing, tell him/her that you and the rest of your bump fire buddies intend to get together and make a long Chinese jump rope and play nicely. :D

Blue
03-21-2007, 7:34 PM
Quick everyone run out and buy as many rubber bands as possible.

We must be ready to register them when the DOJ opens registration.

two weeks......:D

Two Shots
03-21-2007, 8:28 PM
I know this guy that will sell some rubber bands out of this alley. If anyone is interested in a group buy I'll get a price......

Looks like fun. But, I would think this could turn your rifle into junk real fast.
Now if I can fight the urge to try it.........I'll stick to semi for now

mcubed4130
03-21-2007, 9:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxfGrfL-9kE

Ok... this way, no one gets hurt with the rubber band... it was funny seeing the look on my buddies face the 1st time he did this... this vid, is the 2nd time.

-M3

Isi_man_ica
03-22-2007, 6:08 AM
For those who are doing the Group buy on the 1919a4 here is a video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaPRgppCCvg
I am going to try that with a 100rd belt some time when I get my at my buddies ranch.

OZONE78
03-23-2007, 10:56 AM
What about those devices claiming to be "legal" in catalogs like DELTAFORCE or DELTA PRESS -- one is called something like a "GAT" (Gattling); and the other, which also attaches to your triggerguard, basically (I believe), "pushes" your finger back toward the trigger VERY FAST (something like 200-400 times per minute). Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Isi_man_ica
03-23-2007, 11:59 AM
No. Not Allowed!!

dont you people get it yet?



COOL THINGS=ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA
Hey Mis is the actual art of equipmentless bump firing illegal there?

xenophobe
03-23-2007, 12:18 PM
What about those devices claiming to be "legal" in catalogs like DELTAFORCE or DELTA PRESS -- one is called something like a "GAT" (Gattling); and the other, which also attaches to your triggerguard, basically (I believe), "pushes" your finger back toward the trigger VERY FAST (something like 200-400 times per minute). Anyone know what I'm talking about?

:rolleyes: It is a trigger activator and is a Felony in California.

Oddly, a real Gatling gun with a crank is perfectly legal.

anotherone
03-23-2007, 12:20 PM
This is really an area that's up to local law enforcement and the infamous 58 DAs. I would presume that in some counties such as Kern it is highly probable that you would not get into much trouble using a rubber band to do this on BLM land as long as you weren't bothering anyone. It is highly likely that in most liberal counties the rubberband could be deemed a "multi-burst trigger activator" under applicable state laws.

In either event I wouldn't be trying this with anything other than registered AWs, M-14s, Mini-14s, etc. An off-list rifle with a rubberband is just too tempting.

OZONE78
03-25-2007, 6:59 AM
What about those 2 devices from DELTAFORCE.COM (the "GAT", and the "AUTOBURST")? It seems to me that ,if caught using those devices(which are claimed to be "completely legal - papers/certification included"), you would be up to your receding hairline in DIARRHEA. (hahahahahaha! I f**king love that word!).

Isi_man_ica
03-25-2007, 7:01 AM
Thankyou mis for the answer. Need an air drop in occupied territory? :P

inda_bebe
10-01-2007, 9:35 PM
i tried bumpfiring w/ the rubber band, and that isnt easy. i got a few shots fired as auto, but doing it from the hip is super easy.

we bumpfired a few times and soon some swat guy looked at our range and took a peak, after i saw him snooping around, i was like "oh, shet" start using the takedown pin to start loading it.

ar15barrels
10-01-2007, 10:12 PM
:rolleyes: It is a trigger activator and is a Felony in California.

So a BMF activator is no-go?

I had one of these back in the 90's
Simple plastic clamp-on piece with a hand crank.
It made a 10/22 run like nobody's business.
Gotta love the 50rd ramline drums. :D

Shane916
10-01-2007, 10:27 PM
Back from March by popular demand....