PDA

View Full Version : The approved list beyond 2007


Kali_M14
02-18-2007, 11:42 PM
Ok so I want to clarify something, Do all the handguns on the approved list now, have to have a mag disconnect when they renew? or do they continue on as is and only new guns have to have the disconnect?

Stanze
02-18-2007, 11:44 PM
Only new semi-auto handguns. What really sucks is that no new GLOCK pistols or 1911 designs can be submitted for testing.

Guns R Tools
02-19-2007, 12:49 AM
Isn't there chance of exemption for Glocks when many cops prefer it?

I believe that similar thing happened with Glock before, lacking external safety or something like it.

Rumpled
02-19-2007, 12:54 AM
Glocks can stay on the list as long as they pay the fee.

Cops are exempt from the list.

Stanze
02-19-2007, 12:59 AM
You have to pull the trigger to disassemble a GLOCK pistol, it's current design would not be able to incorporate a magazine disconnect safety without a major redesign.

ns3v3n
02-19-2007, 1:14 AM
damn california laws...

hw323
02-19-2007, 5:31 AM
YEP.. :(

I hope at least the HK45 is going to be CA approved as people have claimed. Then at least that's one gun coming out in 2007 that we'll have.

And as for the Glock G21SF (Slim Frame), are we snot-outta-luck for those too for '07?

glockk9mm
02-19-2007, 5:37 PM
And as for the Glock G21SF (Slim Frame), are we snot-outta-luck for those too for '07?


I would also like to know this.

Librarian
02-19-2007, 6:06 PM
G21 slim, probably not - Stanze has the reason, above, I think.

Kali_M14
02-19-2007, 7:20 PM
Many gun makers give the finger to CA and we pay the price. The state loves it, they don't want us to have them anyway.


My sentiments exactly! This is why I wouldn't put it passed them to say that once a gun has to renew in 08 that it must have the mag disconnect and the loaded chamber indicator. I'm not takin my chances, I'm going for broke this year especially with the 1911s:D

blkA4alb
02-19-2007, 8:05 PM
Guys,

As long as the gun does not fall off the list and the fee continues to be paid. The DOJ cannot just say that it needs the disconnect and indicator now.

Kali_M14
02-19-2007, 9:40 PM
I looked at the regs and i did not see anything that says "New" handguns it just says starting in january 2007 that the DOJ will test semi-autos after it has acertained that it has both a loaded indicator and mag disconnect is present. Since, they have to renew every year doesn't that mean that all handguns must have it or did I completely miss the part that it said "new" handguns

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/clmodifiedtext0306.pdf

see page 2

hoffmang
02-19-2007, 9:58 PM
To pass the test to get on the list a gun must now pass the drop test and have a chamber indicator and a mag disconnect. Renewal handguns do not need to pass the test. Thus older handguns that are on the list remain on the list as long as the manufacturer keeps paying the fee.

-Gene

Kali_M14
02-19-2007, 10:48 PM
section 4073 states that the DOJ can radomly retest up to 5% of the handguns that are already on the approved list to ensure that they are compliant with the law. if they excercise this they can either force manufactirers to add the disconnect or have them fall of the list till they do right? I'm not sure that all manufacturers are willing to do this

Librarian
02-20-2007, 10:26 AM
section 4073 states that the DOJ can radomly retest up to 5% of the handguns that are already on the approved list to ensure that they are compliant with the law. if they excercise this they can either force manufactirers to add the disconnect or have them fall of the list till they do right? I'm not sure that all manufacturers are willing to do thisIf the retested examples fail, they fall off the list. If they fall off the list, in order to get back on the list the gun would have to have the mag disconnect and the loaded-chamber indicator. If the gun passes, it stays on the list, subject to the requirements in force when it passed the testing the first time.

When the manufacturers pay the annual fee the guns are NOT retested, and therefore are not subject to the md and lci requirements - the requirement is on the testing labs to accept only those weapons with the required features.

Of course, the legislature could change the law...

Kali_M14
02-20-2007, 1:33 PM
If the retested examples fail, they fall off the list. If they fall off the list, in order to get back on the list the gun would have to have the mag disconnect and the loaded-chamber indicator. If the gun passes, it stays on the list, subject to the requirements in force when it passed the testing the first time.

When the manufacturers pay the annual fee the guns are NOT retested, and therefore are not subject to the md and lci requirements - the requirement is on the testing labs to accept only those weapons with the required features.

Of course, the legislature could change the law...


but since the law states that they must have both, aren't they already failing since there is no mag disconnect:confused:

Also it states that guns can be retested at random. to me retest means that they have already passed and that they are now being checked again. if you read further down in section 4073, it mentions that if a gun is radomly retested and fails that it will be immediately removed from the approved list

mike100
02-20-2007, 2:18 PM
the law was designed to make it difficult to sell handguns here, any safety is a by-product of the law. It has been successful in that regard. eventually a manufacturer may stop making a certain model and won't pay the renewal. that hurts us since that gun can only be sold ppt and not as a store owned pistol or thru the mail to another ffl in state.

I can see enthusiasts financing the renewal costs for discontinued models to keep the list as large as possible. I did buy 5 or six handguns last year along with 5 long guns, perhaps I'll get one or two more...I don't really want much more than that anyhow, but it was quite the adventure buying them all in '06. I feel like Norm from 'cheers' every time I go in my favorite ffl spots.

get what you can, or take the extraordinary effort to get a COE, ffl, or ppt imported/parental gift. The gun trade is a diminishing market in this state, I wouldn't want to have a new ffl here.

Librarian
02-20-2007, 3:38 PM
but since the law states that they must have both, aren't they already failing since there is no mag disconnect:confused:

Also it states that guns can be retested at random. to me retest means that they have already passed and that they are now being checked again. if you read further down in section 4073, it mentions that if a gun is radomly retested and fails that it will be immediately removed from the approved list

No, if a gun is on the list now, it must meet only the requirements in effect when it was first put on the list. Not having the mag disconnect cannot be a 'fail' for a gun put on the list when that was not required. A fail would happen if the sold versions were made of different materials than the ones tested, or if the tested sample would fire when dropped or something like that.

Since the testing requirements are really a low functional barrier, the likelihood of a performance-based failure is pretty low.

Follow along...

Glock decides to keep selling G21s in California, after the list is created in law. Let's say it was 2001, the year that the list became effective.

Glock passes on the right number of samples, the ammo, pays the fees to the state so the testing lab gets the guns.

The lab does the tests, and the guns pass.

This is before 2005, so mag disconnects and loaded chamber indicators are not in the law yet.

Glock pays the fees in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 to keep the G21 on the list.

The G21 can stay on the list so long as

Glock keeps paying the fees,
the G21 is manufactured and sold exactly as tested, and
no sample of the G21 fails a functional retest.

So long as it is continuously on the list, a tested-in-2001 gun is not required to meet 2006/2007 requirements.

All guns on the California list before 31 Dec 2005, and continuously on the list since then, are exempt from the mag-disconnect and loaded-chamber indicator requirements.

Retest is not relevant to that, unless the gun fails the retest. THEN the gun is removed from the list. In that case, to get on the list again, just as any gun which had never been on the list, the gun has to have the features required at the time the gun is submitted for testing.

Kali_M14
02-20-2007, 4:20 PM
see attachment

Librarian
02-20-2007, 4:42 PM
see attachmentThey can test 5%. And?
"compliant with the law" still means as the law was when the gun was submitted.

Do you disagree?

Here's the Penal Code 12126 - it really is not unclear
b) For a pistol:
(1) It does not have a positive manually operated safety device,
as determined by standards relating to imported guns promulgated by
the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant
to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns
pursuant to Section 12128.
(4) Commencing January 1, 2006, for a center-fire semiautomatic
pistol that is not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have either a chamber load indicator, or a
magazine disconnect mechanism.
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center-fire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has
a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a
detachable magazine.Listed on the roster (before 2006), retested or not, and a gun is exempt from the mag-disconnect and the loaded chamber indicator.

Kali_M14
02-20-2007, 4:50 PM
They can test 5%. And?
"compliant with the law" still means as the law was when the gun was submitted.

Do you disagree?


I didn't read the "law at the time of submission" I only read "the law" which today means having the disconnect if it meant at the time of submisission then why is that not stated and why retest any certified guns if they passed with the laws at the time of submission?

Librarian
02-20-2007, 5:08 PM
I didn't read the "law at the time of submission" I only read "the law" which today means having the disconnect if it meant at the time of submisission then why is that not stated and why retest any certified guns if they passed with the laws at the time of submission?
See the updated post with PC.

Retest is for sleazy manufacturers who send in a test sample of steel but sell guns made of pot metal, or some such thing.

UPDATE: I'm getting the feeling you don't believe me, so here's a solution - contact DOJ Firearms (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/contact.php); I've used the email contact form on that page several times. They are responsive pretty quickly, and seem able to answer clear questions.

And they'll tell you what I've been telling you.