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dfletcher
02-17-2007, 7:56 PM
I have a DSA SA58 FAL - bought new from DSA, not used & no build up or parts switched out. Out of the box original & new from the factory.

I'm getting failure to eject & full cycle even with the gas regulator completely closed. I've got the thing in the correct position (A up) and regulator shut all the way - can't turn it any more. Using military type 308 "surplus" - comes 140 rds in a beige battle pack, 147 FMJ - I get about 10% failure to cycle.

This stuff just flies through my M1 Garand (308 also, not 30.06) a friend's FAL & CETME. Much as I'd like to blame the ammo that doesn't seem the case. I'd understand having to dial up a bit from a middle of the road gas reg setting, but completely shut & failure to cycle?

First, any ideas on what the problem may be or should I just look at this as a wearing in process? The piston is nice & tight in the tube. Can anyone suggest some surplus ammo with a little more "oomph"? I have to say the thought of a weaker spring has crossed my mind but I don't quite want to go that route.

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 7:58 PM
What happens when you turn the GAS PLUG around 180 degrees ?

Have you checked the gas path ? of the plug to be sure the hole that the gas travels through is pointing toward the barrel ?

Blue
02-17-2007, 8:04 PM
Is the piston supposed to be nice and tight? IIRC mine was just a "smooth" fit. It's been a long time since I played with my FAL though so I may be wrong. SAS also might be on the right path with the gas plug...

Pryde
02-17-2007, 8:11 PM
What happens when you turn the GAS PLUG around 180 degrees ?

Have you checked the gas path ? of the plug to be sure the hole that the gas travels through is pointing toward the barrel ?

He did say that the gas plug was up in the correct "A" position.

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 8:15 PM
But he didn't say he checked the gas path and that would the #1 starting point DSA makes or has the gas plugs made right. Maybe the A position is for launching grenades as its a G on my FN FAL.

Anyhow check that first and then take the next step. Like how does the piston feel in the tube ?

Is there a piston in the tube ? Lets see some pics of the parts that are suspect.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/FAL/FAL_R1A1Gasplug.jpg

The gas hole as shown in the pic should point down when installed for the rifle to function.



He did say that the gas plug was up in the correct "A" position.

dfletcher
02-17-2007, 8:52 PM
I should have said the piston is a smooth fit - there's no binding, anything like that. Also, this is a 16 1/4" bbl.

I have the quick release gas plug - has the little "L" shaped lever with the "A" on it. With the "A" on top (facing straight up in front of the sight) I get the cycle problems. Turn one click to the right & the "A" is facing right side of the bbl - definite single shot, no cycle or bolt movement at all. One more turn & the "A" is facing down - 180 degrees from where it started - one more turn & the plug comes out.

So on the quick release lever I'm assuming the "A" should be straight up, turn it one click (90') and it's single shot, another 90' the "A" is face down, one more turn & it pops out.

I have the gas plug out now - "U" shaped cut in the rear end of it is up when the A is up, there's a hole in the bottom of it when the A is up. So I'm assuming the gas ports from the bbl, through the round hole in the plug & hits the piston head.

I had an FN49 for years - I'm going to feel like a real dumbass if I had the piston set wrong.

-hanko
02-17-2007, 8:59 PM
I'm getting failure to eject & full cycle even with the gas regulator completely closed. I've got the thing in the correct position (A up) and regulator shut all the way - can't turn it any more. Using military type 308 "surplus" - comes 140 rds in a beige battle pack, 147 FMJ - I get about 10% failure to cycle.

First, any ideas on what the problem may be or should I just look at this as a wearing in process? The piston is nice & tight in the tube. Can anyone suggest some surplus ammo with a little more "oomph"? I have to say the thought of a weaker spring has crossed my mind but I don't quite want to go that route.
Double check the gas plug orientation, sounds like it should be ok.

The gun will 'wear in' as all guns do. FTE/cycle issues should not happen in the process.

Remove the gas plug, piston, and piston spring. Drop the piston down the gas tube & point the barrel straight down...piston should slide out freely.

Run a tight patch down the gas tube to remove possible residual oil or cleaner. Repeat until the patch is dead clean. Clean the piston with a no-residue cleaner...trichlor, lacquer thinner, Shooter's Choice bore cleaner, etc.
Other than that, the gun should run.

Causes for your issues are numerous; stuff above are common checks you can do yourself. FTE/cycle problems are usually gas system related.

Does the action feel smooth if you hand-cycle a full mag (be careful).

On a new DSA gun, you should have NO trouble having them pay for shipping, fix it AND test fire a mag or 2 when they're finished. You can ship it yourself without an ffl. Yours is the 2nd I've heard of that was doa. You still have a superb weapon:cool:

Please post what happens

-hanko

EricCartmann
02-17-2007, 9:17 PM
i had a ptr-91 that did this with SA. on the PTR's you can't adjust the gas. what happened was just as you described, went through a full cycle and did not eject. i changed mag and and all was well. i chucked that mag in the garbage and have never seen it since.

dfletcher
02-17-2007, 9:29 PM
Everything's nice & clean and I think the plug's properly oriented.

I have the hanguards off and a follow up question. The gas piston housing tube - long tube from the rear sight to the receiver - rotates about 20 degrees back & forth. With the gas regulator unscrewed from the sight housing I can see the cut in the gas piston housing tube that vents off the gas. Should the tube be solid in place or not? I can see that the rotation in this tube causes the port in the tube to line up & go out of line with the port cut in the sight base. Shoudn't this tube be unable to move.

I have to say, to spend this much $$$ and have the thing not work is dissappointing as hell.

draconianruler
02-18-2007, 12:34 AM
I am having almost the exact same problem. Took my FAL out for the first time after being built and had failure to eject even with the gas plug completey closed. It did eject a few times but mostly didn't.

dfletcher
02-18-2007, 1:13 AM
Something I noticed - the gas tube in mine wiggles quite a bit, so much that the gas port on top of the tube gets out of line with the port on the sight base. Since the gas must vent from the barrel port through the port in the bottom of the tube, my thought is that bottom port on the tube is getting out of line with the port in the barrel & impinging on the amount of gas entering the tube & moving the piston. Giving the piston tube one 180 degree turn made it tighter & the ports up top stay in line - there's very little wiggle.

-hanko
02-18-2007, 7:54 AM
Everything's nice & clean and I think the plug's properly oriented.

I have the hanguards off and a follow up question. The gas piston housing tube - long tube from the rear sight to the receiver - rotates about 20 degrees back & forth. With the gas regulator unscrewed from the sight housing I can see the cut in the gas piston housing tube that vents off the gas. Should the tube be solid in place or not? I can see that the rotation in this tube causes the port in the tube to line up & go out of line with the port cut in the sight base. Shoudn't this tube be unable to move.

I have to say, to spend this much $$$ and have the thing not work is dissappointing as hell.
I hope this covers the above 2 posts...

Hole in the gas plug at the far right in Sam's picture should face the barrel when correctly installed

The gas tube should have some radial looseness.

If you remove the regulator ring, you should see a small pin at a right angle to the tube. It's located on the underside of the regulator threads on the gas block. It's possible you might be missing the pin. If so, you can make an expedient pin from a nail or coat hanger 2mm diameter (0.08") by ~8mm (5/16") long.

If the pin is in place, drift it out. Hand tighten the tube 'til it bottoms, turn it out so that the pin can be replaced in the gas block, AND the vent holes in the tube point at 5 and 7 o'clock (front sight is 12). The slots you see at the front end of the gas tube are there to allow clearance for the gas tube pin. Replace the regulator. At this point, you've done what you can...if it doesn't run, get it back to DSA.

Proper starting setting for the regulator is one turn out from bottom, you'll see the vent hole in the gas block closed by the regulator.

One other thing DSA may have missed (unlikely) is that short barrels need the gas hole in the barrel drilled oversize to supply more gas to the piston. You could remove the front sight & measure the hole with a set of drills. Standard barrel hole diameter is around 0.090" or so. I've had to drill short barrels anywhere from 0.100 to 0.130" go get the gun to run. I'd be very surprised if DSA blew it on the port diameter.

The last few new dsa guns I've had showed firing residue when I opened the box. Maybe yours wasn't test fired...???
hth

-hanko

Guinness
02-18-2007, 7:36 PM
I'm getting failure to eject & full cycle even with the gas regulator completely closed. I've got the thing in the correct position (A up) and regulator shut all the way - can't turn it any more. Using military type 308 "surplus" - comes 140 rds in a beige battle pack, 147 FMJ - I get about 10% failure to cycle.




My NEW DSA stainless barrel carbine length did the same thing. DSA refused to help me or talk with me due to it being on a Entreprise receiver. I sent it to Rich at CGW, and after tweeking everything he could, he switched out the NEW DSA gasblock on the barrel. The rifle now cycles perfect on 6. DSA denies anything since two NON DSA smiths worked on it (the inital build, and CGW) even though DSA refused to look at it before..

Send it to Rich at CGW - he's good to deal with and knows his FALs..

And DSA needs to get some customer service and support..

-hanko
02-18-2007, 7:43 PM
My NEW DSA stainless barrel carbine length did the same thing. DSA refused to help me or talk with me due to it being on a Entreprise receiver.

Send it to Rich at CGW - he's good to deal with and knows his FALs..

And DSA needs to get some customer service and support..
Kind of taking your "new" Chevy with a Ford engine to a GM dealer for warranty work. What was "NEW DSA"...just the barrel??

Rich's reputation precedes him;) .

Why would DSA want to do warranty work with (especially) an Enterprise receiver??

-hankio

Guinness
02-18-2007, 8:00 PM
Kind of taking your "new" Chevy with a Ford engine to a GM dealer for warranty work. What was "NEW DSA"...just the barrel??

Rich's reputation precedes him;) .

Why would DSA want to do warranty work with (especially) an Enterprise receiver??

-hankio

Well, if DSA could have gotten their act together and produced some receivers, but thats another issue they seem to have..

The DSA barrel and block was new, the rifle never cycled from the first time the receiver was mated to it - I was told it was a bad gas block, and relayed this to DSA - who wouldnt even talk with me about it to help me solve the problem - they suggested I send it to another smith - but not them because they wouldnt help me. So I did - Rich, who solved the problem - the DSA Gas block (would seem so since it was the last thing he changed out and it now the rifle cycles.) Once I sent a email to DSA about it, they denied it - and pretty much said they were the ONLY ones to make such a determination - but since someone other then them (gee, they refused to help me so what was I to do) its pretty much a mute point..

Even if they said 'Send it in, we would like to see it and review it as we have no other complaints' I would have felt better about the situation..

Its just poor customer service is all.. I've spent alot of money with DSA, and found out unless THE to the complete build and no one else touches your rifle - its not thier problem..

I'd rather not post the emails that DSA sent out as I think it would be bad taste - but they were rather and basiclly said 'too bad for you'..

dfletcher
02-18-2007, 8:55 PM
I'm leaning towards the gas tube being not proprly screwed in & seated. I removed the tube's retaining pin from the front sight base and it took 3 turns to fully seat it. I then backed off about a 1/4 turn & lined up the ports, replaced the retaining pin.

There seemed to be a fair amount of powder residue around the threads of the piston tube - even a bit beyond them. I think some of the gas was not hitting the port & travelling down the outside of the tube.

I'm not crazy about the "radial turning" - great term by the way, I couldn't figure what to call it & that's right on - and would like to drop some blue loctite on the front threads. Any harm in that so long as I of course don't slop it onto the ports?

SemiAutoSam
02-18-2007, 9:00 PM
I don't know what the other FN FAL owners would this about this.

But IF someone was asking me I would say no do not do this.
The regulator knob should hold the gas tube pin in place just fine.

would like to drop some blue loctite on the front threads. Any harm in that so long as I of course don't slop it onto the ports?

Bolt2Bounce
02-18-2007, 9:09 PM
I'd check head space first, if your locking block is over sized it will be very tight and that tight head space can cause the gun to Fail to cycle.
Or if a scope mount is to tight same prob.
I'd be surprised as DSA seems to have their sh*t together. But there could be a bozo working on your gun. I've seen that before a good company hires a clown and he wrecks the rep for a while. Also bad parts can make it past the inspections and end up in rifles sometimes.
B2B