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Ripon83
10-30-2011, 8:18 PM
Several months back I discussed my brother in law entering the realm of preparing for "STHF." He lives in the foothills outside of Sonora, CA and has never owned a gun before in his 56 years. No one in his family (wife, kids) have any experience with guns either. This past summer at my recommendation he bought a 10/22 and I've taken him out shooting 3x now and he's thinking its time to move up, and to set forth a group of guns for him and his families defense. He asked me what to get and he's fairly limited in funds so here is what I told him to do over the next year or two:

Next: Mossberg 590 on sale at Big 5 this week for $289. Will probably cost $350 I guess with some out the door taxes and such. I encouraged him to spend $200 more on some bird shot and some 00 buck and we'll take it out on the next trip.

9 Months: GSG 1911 A1 22LR and 2 extra magazines, holster and such I think he can get it all for about $450. This would be his first hand gun and depending on how he does I think it will lead him to a 45 1911 later.

9 Months: RIA 1911 A1 Tactical 45 or if he feels the recoil (on mine) is too much than we'll back off to 9mm.

Last: An SKS 7.62x39 for himself.

His budget is about $3,000 to $4,000 over 18 to 24 months. I'd suggest an AR over the SKS if he had another $500 or $1,000 to spend but I don't think he wants to spend $5k right now or in the next 2 years. Maybe later.

SKS & 1911 for him
12 Gauge for his wife
10/22 for his son
GSG for his daughter

Within these price limits - good suggestion - different route?

problemchild
10-30-2011, 8:35 PM
Seeing how a rifle is the number one I would get the sks 1st, shotgun second.

DemocracyEnaction
10-30-2011, 8:39 PM
Mossberg has a 30-30 with marinecote. Good investment in my book. Marinecote is bad @ss stuff.

HK4113
10-30-2011, 8:39 PM
I would get a glock on a budget instead of the ria 1911

DemocracyEnaction
10-30-2011, 8:43 PM
Is it time to form up?

damon1272
10-30-2011, 9:29 PM
Here is a concept (not trying to be a smart ***), if you own any of these guns or anything like them then loan him one at a time so he gets the feel of it and makes the right choice to buy it or not. As you said that he is on a tight budget I think this would help him make decisions rather than spending money on a bunch of .22's and then moving up in caliber. Not that .22's are bad but the idea of getting him in at a bottom level and then working up is not needed as much. Just a thought.

tcd511
10-30-2011, 9:34 PM
I would get a glock on a budget instead of the ria 1911

Most definatley. Glock over RIA anyday.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Lone_Gunman
10-30-2011, 9:43 PM
I would suggest a Saiga instead of an SKS, and yeah- get the battle rifle first.

I would buy- in this order-

1. Saiga Rifle--I prefer the 5.45x39 because you can get 1080 rounds of Russian Surplus for about $150 shipped. J&G Sales has the .223, the 5.45x39 and the 7.62x39 Saiga on sale for $299.00 right now. $15 shipping and whatever the FFL charges for the transfer. http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/ak-pattern-rifles/p/saiga-5-45x39-sporter-rifle%2C-tgi-import%2C-new-/cPath/209_214/products_id/5887 I was able to find as FFL to do it for $50 including DROS.

2. Ruger 10/22

3. 12 Gauge shotgun Either a Remmy 870 or a Mossberg 500

4. A 9mm Glock. I would go with the Glock 26 as it is the most concealable, yet it can use any 9mm glock magazine made, from the 10 round subcompact G26 mag all the way up to the 32 round G18 magazine.

Ripon83
10-30-2011, 11:02 PM
I like that Saiga over the SKS.....see I learn something here all the time.

Glock vs RIA ... I like him knowing the 1911 platform. He's the kind of guy that will tear it down and learn every part. I think that bestows 1911's being a better option for him; he'll shoot mine before knowing if 45 or 9mm though is his choice. He's big, strong guy, and I think he'll go 45.

Saym14
10-30-2011, 11:22 PM
Ruger Mini 14
Mossburg 12 ga
Ruger SR9
Ruger 10/22 in that order

m98
10-30-2011, 11:30 PM
I say drop the gsg and just get another 1022. That way the mags are interchangeable and cheaper and a 1022 is more reliable and more accurate.

redrex
10-31-2011, 12:30 AM
Next: Mossberg 590 on sale at Big 5 this week for $289.

GSG 1911 A1 22LR and 2 extra magazines.

RIA 1911 A1 Tactical 45.

An SKS 7.62x39 for himself.


SKS & 1911 for him
12 Gauge for his wife
10/22 for his son
GSG for his daughter



I've been giving a lot of thought to a similar situation and here is what I've been thinking. I have a wife and three small kids. But I'm also anticipating family and very close friends might all need to use this equipment and none of them are very familiar with firearms.

I went with the Mossberg 500A. The 590 is a good gun but when fully loaded I think the balance is off because of the extended tube. I like the 5 shot tube. Then I've got extra rounds on the stock and side saddle.

Skip the GSG, and go straight for the RIA. In fact get two of them. Then get a used 22 conversion kit for training and the daughter. And don't listen to the Glock talk. Glocks are good guns, but the simplicity, ease of finding replacement parts and accuracy of a well tuned 1911 can not be matched by the glock.

Say NO to the sks. I love them but I ditched all my russian stuff and went with, well ok, other russian stuff. Saiga's in 223. They are dirt cheap right now. If you shop around you can find them cheaper then your basic SKS. Plus in a shtf situation, 223 are going to be easier to get. I did the research and it isn't close, the number of 223 sales vs any other battle rifle. Also you can get a converter to make the Saiga take AR mags! How can you say no to that, the reliability of an AK and you can get ammo everywhere!

Now here is the tricky part. SELL THE 10/22. Yep sell it. Then go and buy 4 Marlin 795s. Unless you are going to trick out the 10/22, the out of the box accuracy is good but I'd say the 795 is better and you can buy three of them for the price of to rugers! And there is a $25 rebate going on right now.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Rebates/rebates_fall2011.asp


And just something to consider, the 12ga for the wife might be a bit much. Think about a 20ga semi auto, or at least a 12ga semi auto.

Federalist
10-31-2011, 12:41 AM
A 12g for the wife? I like a 12g, but not as the primary weapon for my wife. I would consider arming her with something she can handle a bit easier - maybe a 9mm pistol or a 20g shotgun.

I understand consolidating calibers, so you might consider switching his pistol to a 9mm, and her weapon to a 9mm pistol. Just a thought.

Flopper
10-31-2011, 1:07 AM
I would suggest a Saiga instead of an SKS, and yeah- get the battle rifle first.

I would buy- in this order-

1. Saiga Rifle--I prefer the 5.45x39 because you can get 1080 rounds of Russian Surplus for about $150 shipped. J&G Sales has the .223, the 5.45x39 and the 7.62x39 Saiga on sale for $299.00 right now. $15 shipping and whatever the FFL charges for the transfer. http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/ak-pattern-rifles/p/saiga-5-45x39-sporter-rifle%2C-tgi-import%2C-new-/cPath/209_214/products_id/5887 I was able to find as FFL to do it for $50 including DROS.

2. Ruger 10/22

3. 12 Gauge shotgun Either a Remmy 870 or a Mossberg 500

4. A 9mm Glock. I would go with the Glock 26 as it is the most concealable, yet it can use any 9mm glock magazine made, from the 10 round subcompact G26 mag all the way up to the 32 round G18 magazine.

Exactly how I would have responded, minus one: Glock 19 instead of 26 if you need concealability; G17 or G34 if not. (plus a minor correction--G18 mags are 33 rounds not 32 :D

ireload
10-31-2011, 4:42 AM
Drop the GSG as suggested by another poster and get another 10/22. Same magazine and has lots of accesories for a later upgrade. Several 10/22 i've fired in the past does not care much for "truncated" style bullets like the Remington Yellow Jacket. It tends to hang up on the breech of the rifle. Stick with "roundnose" style.

With the SKS just be careful when letting go of the bolt when charging. Make sure the rifle is not pointing down. It can slam fire.

Have him purchase dummy or snap caps rounds to practice dry firing at home. Had my daughter and my wife do that at home and both tell me that when we go to the range to do live fire it makes it easier for them in terms of manipulating the gun.

pkbirdog
10-31-2011, 8:08 AM
People have mentioned the SKS and the Saiga as a good first AR's. Is there a reason why you wouldn't recommend the AR 15? I always figured it was a very reliable rifle and there is a lot ammo out there for it. I have 2 AR 15's but maybe I should invest in other ones.

Lone_Gunman
10-31-2011, 8:45 AM
People have mentioned the SKS and the Saiga as a good first AR's. Is there a reason why you wouldn't recommend the AR 15? I always figured it was a very reliable rifle and there is a lot ammo out there for it. I have 2 AR 15's but maybe I should invest in other ones.

Mainly because the guy is on a pretty tight budget. If he had unlimited funds my list would be different. But the Saiga is nothing more that a sporterized AK, and we all know Aks run forever.


Skip to 1:50 to see why everyone needs at least 1 AK in their SHTF gear.
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echo1
10-31-2011, 12:14 PM
On a limited budget and with the clock running short, I'd forget about the side arm for now. Another 10/22 or a couple of 'em, bunch of mags, ton of .22 ammo will get his family covered. I'm pro SKS but I stocked up when they were inexpensive. Mosin's and their ammo is as cheap as it gets for center fire. If you're not expecting a firefight, goo-ole .30-30s are not too pricey used, I prefer the Marlins. Check out the pawn shop on Oakdale & Briggsmore for competative prices. PAX

Ripon83
10-31-2011, 2:25 PM
As noted the budget is the only reason I did not suggest right to an AR-15. His funds like most of us - are limited.

SKS/Saiga combined with a reasonable sum of magazines and ammo can be done for $525 ish maybe $600. Add magazines and ammo to an AR-15 and you are in the $800 to $900 range and the ammo supply would probably be less.

If we have no issues and don't need them any time soon he could upgrade to an AR in a few years and have an extra. Probably not a bad idea seeing as his kids will only get older and more capable in time.


People have mentioned the SKS and the Saiga as a good first AR's. Is there a reason why you wouldn't recommend the AR 15? I always figured it was a very reliable rifle and there is a lot ammo out there for it. I have 2 AR 15's but maybe I should invest in other ones.

Lucky Scott
10-31-2011, 3:53 PM
Not sure about the .22 pistol, I think a 9mm would be better. Low recoil, easy to handle, but still lethal.
Since the whole deal is budget based, how about throwing a mosin in the mix? Hundred bucks for a rifle, and a few bucks for some ammo and you have a 5 shot rifle that can be effective in someones hands. Sure, it is old tech, only 5 rounds, but for a hundred bucks it is a cheap way to add to the arsonel.
Also, my wife thinks a 20 gauge shotgun is a cannon. She wont even shoot the 12 gauge. A cheap used 20 gauge might be a good idea.

john.t.singh
10-31-2011, 4:21 PM
I've seen Saigas in 7.62 go for about 299 new. Great solid rifles.

Why no mosin? $80 and you can buy 400 rounds of ammo for under $100 dollars. If we are talking budget here....

I would avoid 1911's and stick to a Glock 17 gen 3 used would be just under $400. SHTF you can load 17+1 rounds, which tops any 1911.

Also a Taurus wheel gun will run you easily under 500 depending on what caliber, I think I saw one for $250+ at Turners on sale.

.22 is all on you. The Marlin will work, but I just like the fit and feel of a ruger more.

john.t.singh
10-31-2011, 4:22 PM
Not sure about the .22 pistol, I think a 9mm would be better. Low recoil, easy to handle, but still lethal.
Since the whole deal is budget based, how about throwing a mosin in the mix? Hundred bucks for a rifle, and a few bucks for some ammo and you have a 5 shot rifle that can be effective in someones hands. Sure, it is old tech, only 5 rounds, but for a hundred bucks it is a cheap way to add to the arsonel.
Also, my wife thinks a 20 gauge shotgun is a cannon. She wont even shoot the 12 gauge. A cheap used 20 gauge might be a good idea.

Forgot all about the shotty. Moss 500 at big 5 goes for relatively cheap. You can always use less recoil buck, or even bird...

Paltik
10-31-2011, 4:46 PM
If you're talking SHTF here, I don't understand buying handguns before a carbine or rifle. I'd get the shotgun, then a carbine (a semi-auto version of an assault rifle works nice) or two, then a longer-range higher-caliber longer-barreled rifle with scope.

smle-man
10-31-2011, 6:14 PM
I've seen Saigas in 7.62 go for about 299 new. Great solid rifles.

Why no mosin? $80 and you can buy 400 rounds of ammo for under $100 dollars. If we are talking budget here....

I would avoid 1911's and stick to a Glock 17 gen 3 used would be just under $400. SHTF you can load 17+1 rounds, which tops any 1911.

Also a Taurus wheel gun will run you easily under 500 depending on what caliber, I think I saw one for $250+ at Turners on sale.

.22 is all on you. The Marlin will work, but I just like the fit and feel of a ruger more.

No bolt actions for folks who know nothing about guns and especially not MNs. It would seem that bolt actions are perfect for uninitiated shooters but there is a certain amount of training and practice needed to use a bolt action rifle. A Saiga however is point and shoot. Keep squeezing the trigger until nothing happens. The Saiga is better than the SKS: lighter, simpler, easier to reload. Stripper clips for brand new shooters can be another puzzle.

Stormfeather
10-31-2011, 6:31 PM
I've been giving a lot of thought to a similar situation and here is what I've been thinking. I have a wife and three small kids. But I'm also anticipating family and very close friends might all need to use this equipment and none of them are very familiar with firearms.

I went with the Mossberg 500A. The 590 is a good gun but when fully loaded I think the balance is off because of the extended tube. I like the 5 shot tube. Then I've got extra rounds on the stock and side saddle.

Skip the GSG, and go straight for the RIA. In fact get two of them. Then get a used 22 conversion kit for training and the daughter. And don't listen to the Glock talk. Glocks are good guns, but the simplicity, ease of finding replacement parts and accuracy of a well tuned 1911 can not be matched by the glock.

1911 vs glock = 1911 is ammo deficient in comparison. Glock has less pieces to deal with, and unless hes planning on IDPA or IPSC competition, a finely tuned 1911 still loses out.

Say NO to the sks. I love them but I ditched all my russian stuff and went with, well ok, other russian stuff. Saiga's in 223. They are dirt cheap right now. If you shop around you can find them cheaper then your basic SKS. Plus in a shtf situation, 223 are going to be easier to get. I did the research and it isn't close, the number of 223 sales vs any other battle rifle. Also you can get a converter to make the Saiga take AR mags! How can you say no to that, the reliability of an AK and you can get ammo everywhere!

Stick with the sks if thats all you can afford. Some of us remember the times where sks's were $59.00 each sitting in a blue water barrel in the corner of the gunstore, and we stocked up appropriately. You can still find them cheap, and they still run like a grape ape. Accessibility of ammo is another issue. Buy it cheap and stock it deep, unfortunately 556/223 isnt cheap, in any way shape or form. So in a SHTF, how do you plan on getting to all this easily accessible 223 you are talking about, and where is it supposed to come from?

Now here is the tricky part. SELL THE 10/22. Yep sell it. Then go and buy 4 Marlin 795s. Unless you are going to trick out the 10/22, the out of the box accuracy is good but I'd say the 795 is better and you can buy three of them for the price of to rugers! And there is a $25 rebate going on right now.

No offense, but i totally disagree with this as well. Why sell it when he can just buy another one of those marlins you are talking about? You are basing all this on your personal opinion, not on facts. What may work for you, may not work in his situation. you have to remember that everyones situation isnt the same, take that into consideration. Also take into consideration, that the 10/22 has been around a heck of a lot longer than that Marlin 795 rifle.

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Rebates/rebates_fall2011.asp


And just something to consider, the 12ga for the wife might be a bit much. Think about a 20ga semi auto, or at least a 12ga semi auto.

I agree with much at least, but you can also move the wife up to a 12 ga. shotgun, and just use a lesser load. This alleviates having to buy another different type of ammo.

thomasesmith3
10-31-2011, 7:29 PM
I love how everybody argues about get this get that... Go to a range with rentals and tell the guy behind the counter his situation. A good one will ask questions and start him out on a .22, then progress to find what HE feels comfortable with... Spend a little money and get a gun that he's already shot and feels comfortable with... Everybody has an opinion, only by actively handling a gun will he find one that he likes and is ready to own...

SteveSatch
10-31-2011, 7:33 PM
With a rifle and a handgun I don't think the shotgun is really needed, unless it will be used to hunt with.

Fireguy
10-31-2011, 7:42 PM
Back in the stone age when I was starting out in shooting, an older timer told to stick with military rounds. My first rifle was a 30-06 and for over 50 years that has changed.
Updating that advise I'd go with the .223 round for rifles and 9mm for pistols because in a SHTF situation there will always be those rounds available. If there a police like unit or military within a hundred miles of you there will be black market ammo available.
Unless there is an invasion there will be limited 7.62 x 39.
I'm not a fan of the 9mm but military loves it so the will plenty available.
Once you decide the ammo get your guns.

dogtrainer
10-31-2011, 8:11 PM
If SHTF was to happen tomorrow your relative would have to make do with a 22 rifle (he currently owns) for his self-defense and hunting needs. Ideally, if you could only have one firearm for the SHTF scenario then a shotgun (of any gauge-bore size) would be the best choice.

A shotgun could be used for self-defense and hunting with much more flexibility then a rifle—a handgun would not need to be considered. A rifle would come in a distance second and would not really be needed.

Nevertheless, 7.62 x 39 in a carbine form (SKS or AK) would work well for taking down game or Zombies as needed.

The handgun of choice would have to be 4” 357 Magnum revolver—good for the experienced hunter/shooter for taking game or Zombies.

USMC VET
10-31-2011, 8:34 PM
I believe you can find some ar's used for the price or a little more than the sks. AR or Mini 14 over sks IMO.

If he's going to stay with a 22 pistol I'd go with a P22. (has yet to fail me, 5k + down range )

I'd highly recommend a g17 for self defensive purposes.

lastly I would suggest a mosin for the price and ammo they are great shtf guns.

QQQ
10-31-2011, 8:49 PM
Does he have food and water? Not much point in protecting your stuff if there's nothing edible to protect.

Be sure to include basic provisions in the budget.

After that, it may be a good idea to stick to common calibers (9mm, .223/5.56, 7.62X39, .308, .22LR, 12GA) to keep things simple and inexpensive.

The Mini-14 is a great way to go for the rifle, as is a Saiga.
I don't really know enough about shotguns to comment.
I don't really see the point of getting the handgun in .22 first, especially if it's going to be that expensive. A .22LR is not really going to tell you whether you'd shoot well with a .45 (at least as far as I know).

JaMail
10-31-2011, 8:50 PM
ammo ammo ammo..

stick with the 10/22 and get a marlin 22. that arms the kids and brings in small game. stock up on ammo and make sure you have 4 to 6k rounds of .22 at all times, that gives you a couple years or so of hunting ammo

get the saiga in .223 and a 5.45 for a little more than a bargain basement ar15 you can buy both saiga's and a thousand rounds for each for under 1k?

i personally dont own any more saiga's and i have a couple of ar15's, but i also know them pretty well and can wrench on them if needed. in a shtf for an inexperienced shooter, you realllllly want to stick with the KISS saiga's.

shotgun? leave it for last. im a ruger fan, 1911's are really dependable, but your stuck on the magazine capacity..

even though i dont own any glocks, i have to say go for a glock or a ruger p series for simplicity sake.

buy a couple of hi cap rebuild kits and keep them for when going to free states.

i agree with the revolver, i disagree with the taurus, i personally know two people that bought new .357's and had nothing but trouble and had to send them in for warranty work.

buy a S&W .357, that gives you two calibers to shoot.

i would even say get a lever gun in .357 its less threatening than a EBR and sometimes looks are important.

if hes on a limited budget for the shotgun, then get either the cheapest big 5 mossy special or a couple of single shot 12 ga.. then buy at least 500 rounds of bird shot and 500 buck.


in order..

1) he has the 10/22 now buy 5k rounds

2) get the 2 saigas or lever action and a couple thousand rounds.

3) get the revolver

4) get a glock or ruger in .45 & 9mm since the ammo will likely be plentiful

5) shotgun.


just my opinion..

i honestly think .22 will be the most useful SHTF in a bug in situation.

you cant go wrong stocking up on .223

nrgcruizer
10-31-2011, 10:14 PM
Drop the GSG. Ever tried to take apart a GSG-5? I have a GSG-5. It's German and over-engineered. Lord knows how much tools I had to buy just to clean the bolt and get to the firing pin. If you must have a .22LR pistol, get a Ruger MKII or MKIII. I think the Ruger MkIII 22/45 is the one w/ the same grip angle as the 1911. I'm going to keep a .22LR around for small game.

RIA 1911 is nice & accurate. I have the A1 myself. But I experience the least amount of trouble with my Glock 21SF. I bought the RIA used with 400-500 rounds through it. I must have put in another 400 rounds down range. In the short time I have had my RIA 1911A1, I have had to replace the link pin already and purchase after-market mags to make it work properly. I'm running my G21SF dirty (still haven't cleaned it after 4 range trips) without 1 hiccup. You can forget about running hollow points, unless you get the RIA 1911 polished.

Ever thought about the Keltec's SU-16? They run AR mags. If he ever decides to upgrade, he'll at least have interchangeable mags & rounds, and give the wife the Keltec later as her primary.

As for shotguns, I opted for the Mossy 590. I'm looking to upgrade later to a Mossy 930 SPX. For the wife, I don't know about the 20 gauge. It seems the .410 gauge is becoming a lot more popular. In SHTF, I would think you would want to purchase a firearm you can find rounds for easily. Just my .02 cents.

nrgcruizer
10-31-2011, 10:21 PM
I agree with much at least, but you can also move the wife up to a 12 ga. shotgun, and just use a lesser load. This alleviates having to buy another different type of ammo.

Very true. I agree in keeping the calibers the same. Get some low recoil Federal 12 gauge and softer padding on the buttstock if you're gonna give it to the wifey for a primary.

redrex
11-01-2011, 12:19 AM
I agree with much at least, but you can also move the wife up to a 12 ga. shotgun, and just use a lesser load. This alleviates having to buy another different type of ammo.

I guess I was being kind of sexist and assuming that her build would be of a medium to smaller frame and that was part of my suggestion for the 20. If she can handle the size of the 12 then yes you are right. One thing I would suggest are some 20 gauge and 410 gauge adapter tubes. It's is a very inexpensive way to expand your options.



1911 vs glock = 1911 is ammo deficient in comparison. Glock has less pieces to deal with, and unless hes planning on IDPA or IPSC competition, a finely tuned 1911 still loses out.

Ok your right, the glock does have about a dozen less parts but the availability of those parts after an "event" was my issue. And how is the ammo deficient? 1911's come in 22, 38, 9mm, 40, 45. Or are you talking about round count? 1911's come in double stack high cap as well.



Stick with the sks if thats all you can afford. Some of us remember the times where sks's were $59.00 each sitting in a blue water barrel in the corner of the gunstore, and we stocked up appropriately. You can still find them cheap, and they still run like a grape ape. Accessibility of ammo is another issue. Buy it cheap and stock it deep, unfortunately 556/223 isnt cheap, in any way shape or form. So in a SHTF, how do you plan on getting to all this easily accessible 223 you are talking about, and where is it supposed to come from?

You and I have had this talk before :) I think one of the best arguments you had for the sks in a shtf situation was "no mags to get lost". And I disagree with the other persons argument about stripper clips being a limit for new shooters on the sks platform. I think that after a couple days of practice it won't be much different then operating with mags.

But back to your argument. You lost me with the "$59" bit. What does that have to do with this? These days the average sks (on calguns) sells for about $400. Some a little more and some a little less. The Saiga, un-converted, sells for less then that new! They are also lighter and shorter. Would you, for a new shooter, rather give them a new, light, easy to use workhorse of a gun or a 50 year old relic. And as someone with my 03 FFL, I use the term relic with all due reverence but still :)

As to price of the 223 round, I had heard this one before and it almost put me off of my purchase but I decided to do some of my own research and when I looked around I had found that I could find 223 at or near the same price! Here it is at 20.5 cents per round... http://www.luckygunner.com/wolf-223-ammo-for-sale-223rem55fmjwolfmcwpa-500 I'll admit that I don't buy 7.65x39 but that price is comparable isn't it? So the cost to stock would be roughly the same. AS to where to get it after the fact? Who knows, but if you do manage to come across any ammo, found, traded for or "acquired" the most common round for a rifle like this will be 223. At least in North America.

But I know you love the sks and I doubt I'll change your mind on this. I don't have a problem with the sks, it is a great rifle... BUT if we are talking budget shtf and we are, I think my argument still stands. The saiga is the same price or cheaper, it's lighter, it's shorter, and the 223 is practically the same price (if you shop around). And if you are to ever pick up some rounds after the "event', 223 is your best bet.



No offense, but i totally disagree with this as well. Why sell it when he can just buy another one of those marlins you are talking about? You are basing all this on your personal opinion, not on facts. What may work for you, may not work in his situation. you have to remember that everyone's situation isn't the same, take that into consideration. Also take into consideration, that the 10/22 has been around a heck of a lot longer than that Marlin 795 rifle.

WHOA, did I piss you off or something? What is up with this. "Basing all this on your personal opinion and not facts?" First off, threads like this are mostly opinion. Not to many of us have lived through a SHTF scenario and come back to tell the tale, so we are all doing our fair share of supposition, but as to facts... Do you doubt the fact that the 795 is cheaper? That it has a rebate?? That it is widely considered a better gun out of the box then the Ruger but that the Ruger can be tuned to a much higher degree then the Marlin? And no that is not me saying that. That is hours and hours of scouring the boards and reading what others have already found to be true. Or that having two of one gun is better then having one of each? What about four of the very same model? Who wouldn't want that?

And what do you mean that "the 10/22 has been around a heck of a lot longer?" The 10/22 came out in '64 right? The 795 is simply the latest evolution of the 60 that was built in 1960 so how is the 10/22 older? And there is a huge install base for Marlin 22 rifles

And what is this... "you have to remember that everyone's situation isn't the same, take that into consideration"... What has he told us that I didn't take into consideration and as such makes his situation so different that a Ruger semi auto 22 rim fire is a better choice then a Marlin semi auto 22 rim fire. I don't get this argument one bit.

He said that he wanted to be prepared but was on a budget. You say "Why sell?", I think the better question is "Why wouldn't you?". The 795 does everything the Ruger does and it's cheaper, more durable (in my research for out of the box shooting) and then you have redundancy. 2 is 1, 1 is none right? Why have two different rifles? This seems like a no brainer to me. AND since the 10/22 is as popular as it is, he can can sell it for almost how much he paid for it.


Lastly I would add that he should get the shotgun first. Of all of these guns, the shotgun is the most versatile. It can do all the roles of these other guns if needed AND take some birds while it's at it. But I will admit that this one is my opinion. But I would add that it would not be hard to find a whole host of other who will say, if you can only have one gun, make sure it's a shotgun@

ElToro
11-01-2011, 12:19 AM
IMHO rem 870 is slightly superior to moss 500. spend the extra $30 and be happy. 20 if necessary for ladies.

if i was outfitting a family, i'd go glock or sig in mostly the same model and caliber 19/17 228/226etc. i'd lean towards the 19 or 228 since they likely dont need a duty sized gun. also since they are starting anew, and didnt have the foresite to buy full capacity mags a dozen years ago, i may be tempted to go 10 rounds of 40 vs 9mm. And or or k /l frame S&W or similar size in ruger .357 . maybe a 1911 if they were going to take the time to learn and train.

i'd also stay all in the same rifle caliber. used marlin 30-30s can be had for ~300 each. if the budget was bigger, AR/ mini 14 clones or M1A. a bolt gun or 2 in the same caliber as the semi autos.

now we only need to support a handful of calibers and each family mem has access to handgun, shotgun, and rifle in a acceptable caliber. all the above can be found even in PRK used at decent prices.

R-H
11-01-2011, 1:40 AM
He already has the 22 rifle the Ruger 10-22 is a great rifle and so is the Marlin 795, I might put the larger caliber rifle ahead of the shotgun, but not by much. I would look into the Saiga with the sport stock so you don't need a magazine lock, I would personaly look into the .308 model but the .223 might be a better choice if the wife our kid's had to use the rifle. Shotgun, both the mossburg 500 / 590 or a Remington 870 will not let you down, biggest difference is the location of the safety. Pistols personaly I like a Glock over a 1911, less mechanics to the gun, simple to use, can function with very little maintenance, might go with the 9mm in case the wife needed to use it, 22 pistol I like the Ruger mark 2 or 3 22/45. Best has been said, have him and the family go to a range were they can rent the different gun's to see what fits their needs best.

I am not saying these guns are better guns then others but in a SHTF case none of these wepons would let you down, would cost less then $2000. so that would leave room for extra magazines, spare parts and ammo.

Good luck

Tempus
11-01-2011, 10:54 AM
When my wife wanted to get into pistol shooting and was a touch afraid of the whole larger caliber thing, I started her off on a Glock 22.

But immediately got her a .22 advantage arms kit and a 9mm barrel. Yup, it is a bit of an upfront cost. However, it is LESS than the cost of the RIA and the GSG.

She loves the .22 conversion kit. Got over 1k down with no issues. Additional magazines are a bit more expensive than I'd like but it came with 3 and she's happy.

9mm barrel was pretty cheap. Got it on gunbroker with a rebuild kit for 120 shipped. She's put most of her time in on that. And we still have the 40 barrel to grow into.

She likes the fact that its the same grip on all the "guns." Mounted a little light-weight light on it just for fun. She's very happy.

Chatterbox
11-01-2011, 2:26 PM
Forget the shotgun, forget the handgun. They are there to cover 2% of situations, and should be looked upon as a luxury in a SHTF situation. Why do you need a handgun in a SHTF? Because your rifle has gone gown. How likely is that to happen? Not very - most people using a quality AR-15 and semi-decent ammo see at most 0.5-1% combined FTF/FTE rate. Same goes for shotgun - there are very few situations where it's superior to a rifle. If we were talking about somebody with budget that could readily cover both, sure - get both. If choosing one, get the rifle.

I would suggest a quality budget AR-15, like S&W M&P 15 Sport ($600+DROS) and a quality 10/22 (many good suggestions in the thread abve). That and a 500 rounds for each gun will cost him little more then a $1000 and cover his immediate needs.

john.t.singh
11-01-2011, 2:36 PM
No bolt actions for folks who know nothing about guns and especially not MNs. It would seem that bolt actions are perfect for uninitiated shooters but there is a certain amount of training and practice needed to use a bolt action rifle. A Saiga however is point and shoot. Keep squeezing the trigger until nothing happens. The Saiga is better than the SKS: lighter, simpler, easier to reload. Stripper clips for brand new shooters can be another puzzle.

folks who are buying shtf guns are making a big mistake if they don't know the in's and outs of their guns...

I suggested a mosin purely on the fact that they are on a budget. Like I said $70 dollar for a Mosin. 1000 rounds of ammo for $150, total out the door $220 bucks. Theres not a lot of moving parts in the MN, and the gun has been battle tested for like, ever.

Saiga's are awesome but for the cost of one Saiga plus 1000 roudns of ammo you will be almost triple what it cost to use a MN.

A .22 is easy to shoot, but against bigger predators (aka the two legged kind) your toast.

We're not looking for the ultimate combat weapon here, just something that can hit game and scare off the less motivated human predators.

john.t.singh
11-01-2011, 2:43 PM
Forget the shotgun, forget the handgun. They are there to cover 2% of situations, and should be looked upon as a luxury in a SHTF situation. Why do you need a handgun in a SHTF? Because your rifle has gone gown. How likely is that to happen? Not very - most people using a quality AR-15 and semi-decent ammo see at most 0.5-1% combined FTF/FTE rate. Same goes for shotgun - there are very few situations where it's superior to a rifle. If we were talking about somebody with budget that could readily cover both, sure - get both. If choosing one, get the rifle.

I would suggest a quality budget AR-15, like S&W M&P 15 Sport ($600+DROS) and a quality 10/22 (many good suggestions in the thread abve). That and a 500 rounds for each gun will cost him little more then a $1000 and cover his immediate needs.

A lot of people view SHTF as OMG zombies! When I view SHTF I'm looking at some real world examples such as New Orleans, Joplin, an Earthquake, or the Financial Meltdown in Argentina.

Look at this guys blog, http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
He basically describes living through SHTF as argentina went to crap during their economic meltdown.

In these situations, sometimes carrying around an AR15 while trying to move around the neighborhood is fail. You will attract a lot of unwanted attention. A handgun can be more prudent for conceal-ability.

However as I have learned it, a handgun is only useful in a firefight to buy you time until you can get to your rifle...

redrex
11-01-2011, 3:06 PM
I suggested a mosin purely on the fact that they are on a budget. Like I said $70 dollar for a Mosin. 1000 rounds of ammo for $150, total out the door $220 bucks. Theres not a lot of moving parts in the MN, and the gun has been battle tested for like, ever.

Saiga's are awesome but for the cost of one Saiga plus 1000 roudns of ammo you will be almost triple what it cost to use a MN.


Where are you getting these prices? The Mosins that I see, that I would want to bet my life on, are around $100 or more. And 1,000 of ammo should run you about $200. Ok, so it's only a diff of $80 but still if you are on a budget, $80 is a good chunk o' money.

glockman19
11-01-2011, 3:31 PM
The first 4 firearms I purchased were:
1) Remington 870
2) S&W 686+
3) Glock 19
4) Kimber Custom II

For a Family of 4 I would try to keep it to as few calibers as possible...Maybe a Lever action and Revolver in .357 mag or .44mag...If there are children they could shoot the .38 or .44 Special. Amount of ammo is more important to me once I have a sidearm and rifle combo.

For a True SHTF I would stick to .357 & .44 mag or .45 ACP and .308 in a rifle caliber...In a true SHTF 9mm & .223/5.56 will only get you so far and won't go thru zombies or vests. :cool:

Remington/Mossberg Shotgun 12 gage $350-$400
Marlin 1894 .357 or .44mag - $500-700
S&W 686+ .357 - $600-800
S&W 629 .44mag - $700-$900
Remington 700 .308 - $500-800
Kimber/Springfield 1911 - $700-1,200

With a budget of $4,000-5,000 he could buy each of the guns above an dhave plenty left over for ammo...ammo...ammo.

jaq
11-01-2011, 3:32 PM
Mainly because the guy is on a pretty tight budget. If he had unlimited funds my list would be different. But the Saiga is nothing more that a sporterized AK, and we all know Aks run forever.


Skip to 1:50 to see why everyone needs at least 1 AK in their SHTF gear.
...

Awesome link! Thanks for that ;-)

OP (for budget and reliability):
Saiga .223
Mossy 500 or 590
Glock 9mm

jyo
11-01-2011, 9:45 PM
Pick up a couple of used Mini 14s---grab another 10-22---stock up a stash of ammo---practice! You really won't need much more.

Singularity
11-01-2011, 11:36 PM
I got these for my family in case SHTF, but already dropped a lot of coin with add ons and ammo:

1) Sig 516 with Super Sniper 1-4 HD scope (roughly $2200+ for this setup alone) but I feel at home with this bad boy.
2) Mossburg 590A1 ($400)
3) Glock 22 ($520)

Then just today I picked up my:
4) Ruger 10/22 Tapco ($340) - Got a scope on Amazon for like $58 bux.
5) Walther P22 ($390)
6) Remington 700 ($650) - Got talked into buying this when I picked up my 22's (plinking and to teach my kids/gf how to shoot). Now looking for a scope and bipod (hunt/snipe rifle).

I am looking to get a hunting shotty and one revolver. After that, I think I am pretty much done. I look at guns and ammo like gold and think they would be great bargaining items when SHTF. My gun safe cost a little over $640 - Cannon C 20 if I remember correctly - online from Costco. My neighbor thinks I am nuts, but said he's happy I'm his neighbor. ;-)

Sunday
11-02-2011, 7:15 PM
I would get a glock on a budget instead of the ria 1911 Best advice ever!!!!! SHTF a bunch of Glocks, ammo and magazines would be the most important asset. All other guns would be fluff.

john.t.singh
11-03-2011, 11:21 AM
Where are you getting these prices? The Mosins that I see, that I would want to bet my life on, are around $100 or more. And 1,000 of ammo should run you about $200. Ok, so it's only a diff of $80 but still if you are on a budget, $80 is a good chunk o' money.

http://www.jgsales.com/mosin-nagant-91-30-round-receiver-rifle,-7.62x54r-caliber.-p-1041.html

$80 dollar Mosin. If you ship it will be $100 but I've heard people go to the store in Arizona.

$170 for 1000 rounds - http://slickguns.com/product/1000-rds-762x54r-russian-surplus-148-grain-light-ball-repacked-pa120-ammo-can

Total $250, given you will have to pay shipping, let's say $50 bucks that is still $300 significantly cheaper than any other rifle + 1K rounds of ammo.

Now given a Mosin isn't the best rifle to bring to a gun fight against say a Saiga/Mini14/AR but I would take a Mosin over a 10/22 and if your hunting game the Mosin is more than strong enough to take all game...

Ripon83
11-03-2011, 11:56 AM
The Glock debate is a fun one.....but I'm curious how could 1911's be "fluff" when they are among the most proliferated hand guns in existence?


Best advice ever!!!!! SHTF a bunch of Glocks, ammo and magazines would be the most important asset. All other guns would be fluff.

Ripon83
11-03-2011, 11:59 AM
Interesting thought,

The Mosin could come in under $300 as noted,
A Saiga with a 1,000 rounds in 223 would probably be $550? or $500 with 5.45 right? I'm not sure I like that caliber?
I bought a used SKS with some ammo here for $350 recently and with a 1,000 rounds I'm sure it'd be under $500.

Him being a large man I thought the SKS was the best choice, but if he was broke the Mosin would be, and if money was tight but available it seems to be the Saiga 223 would be best - assuming he can't afford an AR.



http://www.jgsales.com/mosin-nagant-91-30-round-receiver-rifle,-7.62x54r-caliber.-p-1041.html

$80 dollar Mosin. If you ship it will be $100 but I've heard people go to the store in Arizona.

$170 for 1000 rounds - http://slickguns.com/product/1000-rds-762x54r-russian-surplus-148-grain-light-ball-repacked-pa120-ammo-can

Total $250, given you will have to pay shipping, let's say $50 bucks that is still $300 significantly cheaper than any other rifle + 1K rounds of ammo.

Now given a Mosin isn't the best rifle to bring to a gun fight against say a Saiga/Mini14/AR but I would take a Mosin over a 10/22 and if your hunting game the Mosin is more than strong enough to take all game...

Homebrew2
11-03-2011, 12:42 PM
... A Saiga with a 1,000 rounds in 223 would probably be $550? ...

In my case right at $600:
Rifle(300) + shipping(15) + fees(65) = 380
1k ammo shipped (Tula from sgammo) = 220

-//one_man_army//-
11-03-2011, 12:44 PM
I am in agreement with john.t.singh. I think he brings up a valuable point. The Mosin Nagant is an excellent long range "SHTF" weapon. Everyone rants about the Mauser, which is a fine rifle, but someone show me a fair condition Mauser for $100, and reasonable brass for it? Wolf sells premium brass ammo for $15 per 20-box. If he is near one, tell him to go to the next gun show. Mi Wall Corporation sells ammo of all types. They are based in Grass Valley California. The problem with surplus ammo is that all the brass surplus ammo is corrosive. Corrosive ammo is not what you want if you plan on shooting the gun without the time to clean it. Stay away from Wolf steel-core also. Most Mosin Nagant rifles you find came out before steel-core ammo was produced. They cause extraction issues because of excessive case expansion in the chamber. Copper-core ammo is more in line of what Soviet troops would have used in WWII. You can find this ammo in surplus bundles. Make sure to ask whether it is corrosive or not. Remember, cheaper is not always better. The last thing you want is a failure issue in a life or death situation. I don't know what shops your relative has available to him, but I would recommend buying a WASR-10 or Saiga chambered in 7.62X39 (AK-47 variants). The WASR-10 out here is about $500 and the Saiga sporter is about $350-400. You can convert a Saiga sporter into a tactical configuration. (I do this for those that are interest:D )The AK-74 is an accurate gun, but does not have the knock-down power of the intermediate .30 cal bullet. Look at it this way; the average combat distance for guerrilla warfare is between 100-200yrds. He should begin to practice firing at that distance with a rifle, then move onto greater distances. The SKS is a great weapon, but the spike in price does not make the SKS worth buying because of the Saiga rifles. Atlantic Arms sells a Saiga chambered in .308 right now for $500, and they are California-legal. I think you understand where I am coming from. The AR-15s are good rifles, but in my opinion, the cost, caliber, and maintenance make them the least desirable weapon for my purpose. Remember, impact is what you want at close distances. AR-15s are fine for shooting soft targets, but were not made for engaging armored targets. The cheapest M16 profile AR I know of is from Henderson Defense. Whether these are any good, I don't know. My buddy is piecing one together. When it is all said and done, he will have about $650 in his, but he already has mags and ammo. If he is going to buy a .45ACP pistol, I recommend the RIA 1911 ($400), a P345 ($435-459), or go with a .40S&W. All other .45ACP pistols I have seen from other manufacturers are above the $500 price tag. The .40S&W is a good round. 180gr ammo is no joke. If he goes .40, there are more pistols to choose from. The Glock 23, Ruger SR 40, S&W M&P .40, FNH FNP .40, Springfield XD .40 are all between $400-500 new here in the Inland Empire. Springfield often has rebates for gear and magazines for the 9mm and .40. If he is looking to buy a shotgun, I recommend a Winchester 1300 Defender. They have the best action of the three major brands. They are also 7+1 factory. I would recommend the Remington 870 tactical or police magnum is a good second and the Mossberg 590A1 ghost-ring is a third. The police magnum and the 590A1 are usually 7+1. However, I don't recommend any Mossberg 500 series shotguns. I hope this is helpful. Just my two-cents :);)

sholling
11-03-2011, 1:00 PM
First long gun: Mini-14 because it doesn't have the restrictions of an AR. Light fast and reliable. Not super accurate out of the box - just accurate enough to defend the home and put food on the table.

First handgun/training handgun: Ruger 22/45 because it's cheap and very reliable and the ergonomics are a great match for a 1911 or M&P45.

First self defense handgun: S&W M&P45 because there is less of a learning curve than a 1911 and the adjustable ergonomics rock.

650bail
11-04-2011, 1:28 AM
+1000 on the Shotty of the SKS. in the words of a Force Recon Marine and a San Jose SWAT team leader, NOTHING is as useful for food from birds to bear or as intimidating and devastatingly demoralizing as a shotgun with a variety of loads and rifled slugs. That said I'm sold on picking up a cheap Mosin just to have.

sholling
11-04-2011, 10:35 AM
I got these for my family in case SHTF, but already dropped a lot of coin with add ons and ammo:

1) Sig 516 with Super Sniper 1-4 HD scope (roughly $2200+ for this setup alone) but I feel at home with this bad boy.
2) Mossburg 590A1 ($400)
3) Glock 22 ($520)

Then just today I picked up my:
4) Ruger 10/22 Tapco ($340) - Got a scope on Amazon for like $58 bux.
5) Walther P22 ($390)
6) Remington 700 ($650) - Got talked into buying this when I picked up my 22's (plinking and to teach my kids/gf how to shoot). Now looking for a scope and bipod (hunt/snipe rifle).
Don't go cheap on your scopes. There is nothing more unreliable than a cheap scope and if SHTF you won't get the chance to go shopping for a better one.

KevinB
11-04-2011, 6:39 PM
I'm a little more than surprised by the comments.

Every family member of shooting age should have :

High capacity hand gun all in the same caliber and preferably the same model. Ours are 9mm Beretta 92F. 3 magazines for each.

2 or 3 shotguns in 12 gauge, again high capacity units

A Battle rifle for each family member with at least 9 30 round clips. We prefer the AR15 platform as that is what my sons and I shoot in service rifle. One of them carries for a living.

2 long range rifles. 308 and 338 Lapua gets the nod. We have more than 2.

At least 2 weapons should have night vision.

5 or 6 .22 rifles.

Enough ammo to service all of them for several years. You cannot have enough.

Every family member should be competent with all the family's firearms.


I understand that that is a lot of weapons for people that have to leave in a hurry. We are not leaving.

skyscraper
11-04-2011, 8:01 PM
^^ .338 lapua for SHTF? why?

KevinB
11-04-2011, 8:17 PM
Because it is what works for us long range. We are not running, we are staying. My oldest likes the gun and shoots it well.

gatesbox
11-04-2011, 8:26 PM
If we are really talking SHTF and he already has a 10/22, I'd say in order would be Rem 870 (wife will be able to handle in a pinch and 12ga will be more common commodity in SHTF scenarios), Glock G17 (currently the most common modern handgun) mags and ammo will be abundant will be likely to trade or use as comodity, then probably a good sporter AK (easy to use, and tolerant of abuse even kids use them in the 3rd world).

skyscraper
11-04-2011, 8:28 PM
Because it is what works for us long range. We are not running, we are staying. My oldest likes the gun and shoots it well.

Fair enough. I have been wanting one, but dont have the range to justify it.

HammerDown
11-04-2011, 9:00 PM
+1000 on the Shotty of the SKS. in the words of a Force Recon Marine and a San Jose SWAT team leader, NOTHING is as useful for food from birds to bear or as intimidating and devastatingly demoralizing as a shotgun with a variety of loads and rifled slugs. That said I'm sold on picking up a cheap Mosin just to have.

No better option than a 12 gauge for verasiltility, power, and simplicity.

I really dont understand the AR-15 guys saying the shotgun is useful in 2% of situation...talk about head in the sand. Where the heck in SHTF are you going to be firing at ranges of more than 200 yards in a majority of CA? You can get a shotgun that fires 3 or 3.5'' Mags and at least 250 round of shells with a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps at the barrel, 1500-1600+fps at 100 yards, and still going 1400+fps at 150 yards with a 385 grain projectile, for the entry price of your AR. :oji:

Are you going to be dropping every person you see at 250+ yards, without knowing their intentions?

KevinB
11-04-2011, 9:35 PM
Hammer, a shotgun is a useful piece of equipment. I own several.

The pitfalls of a shotgun are many, slow rate of fire. Extremely slow rate of reloading. Ammo is way too heavy. Try picking up 200 rounds and running with it.

Accuracy at even moderate ranges is non existent as well as bullet penetration.

If I happen to run into some zombie birds, I will be all set.

echo1
11-05-2011, 1:27 AM
Hammer, a shotgun is a useful piece of equipment. I own several.The pitfalls of a shotgun are many, slow rate of fire. Extremely slow rate of reloading. Ammo is way too heavy. Try picking up 200 rounds and running with it.Accuracy at even moderate ranges is non existent as well as bullet penetration.If I happen to run into some zombie birds, I will be all set.
KevinB, you, like me, have been around guns, shooting guns, owning guns our whole lives. The OPs bro is a rookie with minimal ducats that needs to ramp up fast. For the price of 20 rds of Lapua, you can get 1000 rds of .22lr or more. For the price of a platform that's shoots .338, .22lr rifles all around. I've got stuff that will reach out and touch someone too, but I preach to all the youngsters from non gun families to get some sort .22lr at least, and to hoard ammo. The first 7-10 days of chaos is what you have to make ot through. In the long run, a .22lr firearm is disposable since you cant reload. That's another reason besides cost, why you need to store thousands of rounds of it. PAX