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Maddog5150
02-16-2007, 7:35 PM
So Im thinking of building my own FAL and was looking around for some parts. Before I get started I wanted to make sure I was doing it right and was wondering how many US made parts I will need to make it legal. I tried the search engine but couldnt find anything. Thanks.

SemiAutoSam
02-16-2007, 7:44 PM
I believe its somewhere between 7 and 10.

This only applies to kit Guns IE guns that are made from select fire FAL's.

And keep in mind those kit guns are built with a "Full house" of full auto parts
While BATF and or California doj haven't (TTBOMK) cracked down on FAL's with FULL AUTO parts like they have with AR15's with FA parts. If they get wise they could IMO. I how ever would not tempt fate and the US MADE parts I would use would be the fire control parts and BC Group.

A tapco and or DSA SA selector and Trigger plunger would be cheap insurance from a LEO putting the selector that came with the kit into the A position and giving the rifle the good old FA test and since the hammer didn't call after the action was cycled the owner gets hooked up and rifle gets taken away to get checked out by a local county sheriff.

Any questions ?




So Im thinking of building my own FAL and was looking around for some parts. Before I get started I wanted to make sure I was doing it right and was wondering how many US made parts I will need to make it legal. I tried the search engine but couldn't find anything. Thanks.

TheMan
02-16-2007, 7:47 PM
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21908

You might need to join to view that. But it is worth it to join that site.


Basically, there are 17 evil parts, so you must get rid of 7. Many people are starting with a US Made receiver, so you only need to get rid of 6.

A US Made hammer, trigger, and sear are 3.
Buttstock, pistol grip, and handguards are 3.
Or the mag body, follower and floorplate are 3.

Doing the mag is cheaper, but then you would be illegal if you ever swapped the mag out(assuming you did it in accordance with silly CA laws). I'd do the other parts to get 6.

Blue
02-16-2007, 7:49 PM
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=21908

You might need to join to view that. But it is worth it to join that site.


Basically, there are 17 evil parts, so you must get rid of 7. Many people are starting with a US Made receiver, so you only need to get rid of 6.

A US Made hammer, trigger, and sear are 3.
Buttstock, pistol grip, and handguards are 3.
Or the mag body, follower and floorplate are 3.

Doing the mag is cheaper, but then you would be illegal if you ever swapped the mag out(assuming you did it in accordance with silly CA laws). I'd do the other parts to get 6.

Gas piston counts too and it's a cheapy through someone like Tapco.

SemiAutoSam
02-16-2007, 7:59 PM
There is also another avenue to travel. Take the road that I went down and Buy a actual FN FAL. If $$$$ isn't that much of a factor and your OK with spending 2000-3000 buy a FN 50.63 Paratrooper rifle.

Or if you just want a .308 rifle and like HK there is or was a HK 41 on http://sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi for 2500.00.

The FN FAL 50.63 and HK 41 are ways to be legal in California but still have the real thing if that is what your into.

Will post what makes the FN and HK legal in California if requested.

Maddog5150
02-16-2007, 8:46 PM
sure! that would be appreciated SAS

SemiAutoSam
02-16-2007, 8:49 PM
Ive posted this on this board in the past but it was a easy copy and paste this bit has to do with the FN 50.63 rifle but the same thing applies with the HK 41, and the SIG 510-4 rifle's as they are not on the ROBERTI-ROOS ASSAULT WEAPONS list either.

The list is below as well as the link to the DOJ website where it came from.



Here are the pics of the receiver of my FN 50.63 where it does not state

What it does state on this receiver is "Cal. 7.62 mm NATO (.308)" Since it does not have what is in line 7 below thus "(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter."

Its my contention that this FN 50.63 rifle is legal in California State.
Right side of receiver.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/5063-3.jpg
Import stamp.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/5063-2.jpg
Left side of receiver.
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/5063-1.jpg

CHAPTER 2.3. ROBERTI-ROOS ASSAULT WEAPONS CONTROL ACT OF 1989
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm
12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms:
(a) All of the following specified rifles:
(1) All AK series including, but not limited to, the models identified as follows:
(A) Made in China AK, AKM, AKS, AK47, AK47S, 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(B) Norinco 56, 56S, 84S, and 86S.
(C) Poly Technologies AKS and AK47.
(D) MAADI AK47 and ARM.
(2) UZI and Galil.
(3) Beretta AR-70.
(4) CETME Sporter.
(5) Colt AR-15 series.
(6) Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1, Max 2, AR 100, and AR110 C.
(7) Fabrique Nationale FAL, LAR, FNC, 308 Match, and Sporter.
(8) MAS 223.
(9) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, and HK-PSG-1
(10) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M11.
(11) SKS with detachable magazine.
(12) SIG AMT, PE-57, SG 550, and SG 551.
(13) Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48.
(14) Sterling MK-6.
(15) Steyer AUG.
(16) Valmet M62S, M71S, and M78S.
(17) Armalite AR-180.
(18) Bushmaster Assault Rifle.
(19) Calico M-900.
(20) J&R ENG M-68.
(21) Weaver Arms Nighthawk.
(b) All of the following specified pistols:
(1) UZI.
(2) Encom MP-9 and MP-45.
(3) The following MAC types:
(A) RPB Industries Inc. sM10 and sM11.
(B) SWD Incorporated M-11.
(C) Advance Armament Inc. M-11.
(D) Military Armament Corp. Ingram M-11.
(4) Intratec TEC-9.
(5) Sites Spectre.
(6) Sterling MK-7.
(7) Calico M-950.
(8) Bushmaster Pistol.
(c) All of the following specified shotguns:
(1) Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12.
(2) Striker 12.
(3) The Streetsweeper type S/S Inc. SS/12.
(d) Any firearm declared by the court pursuant to Section 12276.5 to be an assault weapon that is specified as an assault weapon in a list promulgated pursuant to Section 12276.5.





This is incorrect. Actual FN FALs, along with Springfield Arms FALs, are banned by name.
I just got two more NDS/DCI receivers from Harlan (after the DROS at Irvington Arms) yesterday. Right now they are the best deal on receivers, and they're typeI's and a US part. But DSA, Entreprise or Imbels are nice too.
For the DIY guys, here's a guide for the fixed mag release;DIY California FAL (http://web.archive.org/web/20050306151743/http://www.webshooters.org/diy_california_fal.htm).

Maddog5150
02-16-2007, 8:55 PM
thanks for all the replies guys. Looks like this project will be easier than the AR :p

So is DSA and Enterprise my only real options for recievers or are there still cheaper ones out on the market?

SemiAutoSam
02-16-2007, 8:58 PM
If you really want cheap there is always Century. But the best receivers available are Imbel and DSA so I'm told.

And sorry to tell ya its not quite the Bolt together easy that the AR15 is.

You will need to find a Falsmith to do the head spacing and find the correct locking shoulder.



thanks for all the replies guys. Looks like this project will be easier than the AR :p

So is DSA and Enterprise my only real options for receivers or are there still cheaper ones out on the market?

thedrickel
02-16-2007, 10:14 PM
If you really want cheap there is always Century. But the best receivers available are Imbel and DSA so I'm told.

And sorry to tell ya its not quite the Bolt together easy that the AR15 is.

You will need to find a Falsmith to do the head spacing and find the correct locking shoulder.
Century ain't that cheap anymore. Dealer price on a century type 3 POS is now 299, as opposed to 129 last year. :mad: Definitely not worth it when DSA's dealer price is 350 (also raised this year), but you will have to order and wait a month (give or take a week or two). Screw century. I scored an imbel for the same price last week. :D Entreprise is a bit of a crap shoot and they told me no type 3's avail til april.

Building a FAL is not nearly as easy as an AR but not nearly as much work as an AK. You can do it yourself, the tools will run you over a hundred bucks but you can probably find somebody nearby to help you or loan out their tools.

grammaton76
02-16-2007, 10:28 PM
Anyone have a list of which of the 922(r) counted components a FAL has? I figure I can easily do a FAL checklist on thegunwiki, just like the AK checklist. You know... convenient, javascript, click the parts you're using and it keeps count... that sort of thing.

thedrickel
02-16-2007, 10:33 PM
A FAL has 17 potentially "evil" parts under 18 USC 178.39. You gotta get the count down to 10 or less.

No more than 10 evil parts allowed.

List of evil parts found on a FAL follows:
(1) Receiver
(2) Barrel
(3) Muzzle attachment
(4) Bolt
(5) Bolt carrier
(6) Gas piston
(7) Trigger housings (lower receiver)
(8) Operating rod (charging handle)
(9) Trigger
(10) Hammer
(11) Sear
(12) Buttstock
(13) Pistol grip
(14) Handguards
(15) Magazine body
(16) Magazine Follower
(17) Magazine Floorplate

grammaton76
02-17-2007, 12:07 AM
Thanks, guys. I've now got a FAL checklist for you. I'd appreciate it if you guys could take a look at it and point out any errors (particularly if I forgot to change something that used to say AK!) on it.

I'm also not sure which parts are domestically available, so if there's any parts I have flagged as '???' or whatnot, which are available (even if they're expensive), either edit the page or PM me with the corrections. Thanks again, and hopefully this'll help out some FAL guys.

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildFalVerifyCompliance

-hanko
02-17-2007, 6:40 AM
So Im thinking of building my own FAL and was looking around for some parts. Before I get started I wanted to make sure I was doing it right and was wondering how many US made parts I will need to make it legal. I tried the search engine but couldnt find anything. Thanks.
You need 7 US parts if the finished gun will have a muzzle device, 6 for a gun with a naked barrel.

The FA / Semi issus has been beaten to death. ATF has ruled the gun is FA if the gun fires more than one round per pull of the trigger. Current receivers without the safety sear cut are compliant; still, not a bad idea to use a semi selector or a pistol grip that prevents the selector from moving to the happy position.

There is no debate as to the legality of Howco imported para's. Question is how spendy you feel...they're certainly beautiful guns that will continue to increase in value.

-hanko

-hanko
02-17-2007, 6:46 AM
This only applies to kit Guns IE guns that are made from select fire FAL's.

I how ever would not tempt fate and the US MADE parts I would use would be the fire control parts and BC Group.

A tapco and or DSA SA selector and Trigger plunger would be cheap insurance from a LEO putting the selector that came with the kit into the A position and giving the rifle the good old FA test and since the hammer didn't call after the action was cycled the owner gets hooked up and rifle gets taken away to get checked out by a local county sheriff.

Any questions ?
Not a matter if the hammer falls or not in the fa position, it's whether or not a second round is fired.

Still waiting on the difference between a semi and fa trigge plunger...I've worn out Steven's book trying to find what it is.:D

ATF's letter to Browning regarding legality of imported Belgian guns says that without the safety sear cut in the receiver, the gun is considered legal. The letter offers some additional SUGGESTIONS (NOT requirements) regarding blocking the selector's FA position. That may be a point of confusion (perhaps for both of us). I'd ask the question on the fal files.

-hanko

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 6:49 AM
There is also a thread on FAL FILES about how a guy was doing a intrastate transfer and the receiving FFL noticed that the Selector would rotate to the A position and thus called in BATF to check out the rifle. BATF took the gun and sent it to technology branch. I don't know if the guy was charged or not but from when I last read this thread the guy still hasn't received his rifle back and is in the process of finding an attorney to defend himself of any charges brought by BATF.

I will attempt to find the thread and link to it.


Below is the link to the DSA insurance policy and a pic of the policy below the link.
http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=US076B
http://www.dsarms.com/images/US076B.jpg
http://www.gunthings.com/selector.jpg

I haven't been able to locate a pic of the semi auto trigger plunger but in a nutshell what it does is create a condition where the trigger cannot go into over travel. as when the selector is rotated to the "A" position the (I call it anvil) of the trigger falls into the deeper cut on the selector. the SA trigger plunger prevents this from happening.

I will look farther for it in Google.

One of the problems is like this Sarco website http://www.sarcoinc.com/fnfal.html They only list the 5 parts below as the FULL AUTO parts and this is very far from the truth there other parts as well as the ones listed below that are full auto parts or at least parts that if they aren't used will not let the rifle operate reliably in FA.

If BATF regulates the M16 parts in a AR15 doesn't the same logic apply to FA parts in a semi auto FAL rifle ?


FULL AUTO PARTS
FAL112 FAL Ejector $5.00
FAL111 FAL Ejector Block $20.00
FAL115 FAL Ejector Block Pins $2.00
FAL113 FAL/L1A1 Safety Sear 3/$14.95, 10/$39.95 $5.95,
FAL114 FAL Safety Sear Spring $2.00



////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
That's correct I'm not disputing that but there are a lot of FFL's out there that don't know this and could cause problems If the FA system operated at all even without the Safety sear.

You are getting all of the 922R compliant parts so take the little bit of trouble and get at least the 2 parts that will keep you our of possible trouble.

The SA Selector and the SA Trigger plunger.



Not a matter if the hammer falls or not in the fa position, it's whether or not a second round is fired.

Still waiting on the difference between a semi and fa trigge plunger...I've worn out Steven's book trying to find what it is.:D

ATF's letter to Browning regarding legality of imported Belgian guns says that without the safety sear cut in the receiver, the gun is considered legal. The letter offers some additional SUGGESTIONS (NOT requirements) regarding blocking the selector's FA position. That may be a point of confusion (perhaps for both of us). I'd ask the question on the fal files.

-hanko

-hanko
02-17-2007, 7:13 AM
There is also a thread on FAL FILES about how a guy was doing a intrastate transfer and the receiving FFL noticed that the Selector would rotate to the A position and thus called in BATF to check out the rifle. BATF took the gun and sent it to technology branch. I don't know if the guy was charged or not but from when I last read this thread the guy still hasn't received his rifle back and is in the process of finding an attorney to defend himself of any charges brought by BATF. I will attempt to find the thread and link to it.


I haven't been able to locate a pic of the semi auto trigger plunger but in a nutshell what it does is create a condition where the trigger cannot go into over travel. as when the selector is rotated to the "A" position the (I call it anvil) of the trigger falls into the deeper cut on the selector. the SA trigger plunger prevents this from happening. I will look farther for it in Google.


That's correct I'm not disputing that but there are a lot of FFL's out there that don't know this and could cause problems If the FA system operated at all even without the Safety sear.

You are getting all of the 922R compliant parts so take the little bit of trouble and get at least the 2 parts that will keep you our of possible trouble.

The SA Selector and the SA Trigger plunger.
I saw the post on the fal files, *****hole ffl, to put it mildly. Major pita for the rifle's owner. Issue beat to death on the other forum. Question might be how far to you go to cya as far as an ffl's knowledge goes.

FA system cannot "operate at all" without a sear-cut receiver as the gun won't fire more than one bullet with a single trigger pull.

SA selectors are readily available, or you can modify your kit selector to a semi version. Issue remains that no one, as far as I can tell, offers a semi trigger plunger.

Issue is analagous to the AR...how far do I go to keep my legal oll gun leo/range master/ffl/59-da proof ?? ;)

-hanko

ETA, Google found sa and fa plungers available through armscorp. No pics, but obviously the semi plunger has it's spring collar moved rearward enough on the plunger shaft to restrict movement when the selector is in the fa position.

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 7:23 AM
I honestly don't think its the FFL's fault he was just Doing his routine of CYA.

As far as how far do you go to CYA I would say at least as far as taking out the FCG parts and putting the SA FCG parts in their place. The SA selector switch and the SA trigger plunger if it can be found. Sarco has this one for 4 bucks. But I don't know if its a FA or a SA.

FAL044 FAL Trigger Plunger $4.00

The one that DSA sells is the FA trigger plunger.
http://www.dsarms.com/images/065.jpg




I saw the post on the fal files, *****hole ffl, to put it mildly. Major pita for the rifle's owner. Issue beat to death on the other forum. Question might be how far to you go to cya as far as an ffl's knowledge goes.

FA system cannot "operate at all" without a sear-cut receiver as the gun won't fire more than one bullet with a single trigger pull.

SA selectors are readily available, or you can modify your kit selector to a semi version. Issue remains that no one, as far as I can tell, offers a semi trigger plunger.

Issue is analagous to the AR...how far do I go to keep my legal oll gun leo/range master/ffl/59-da proof ?? ;)

-hanko

ETA, Google found sa and fa plungers available through armscorp. No pics, but obviously the semi plunger has it's spring collar moved rearward enough on the plunger shaft to restrict movement when the selector is in the fa position.

dwtt
02-17-2007, 7:48 AM
There is also a thread on FAL FILES about how a guy was doing a intrastate transfer and the receiving FFL noticed that the Selector would rotate to the A position and thus called in BATF to check out the rifle. BATF took the gun and sent it to technology branch.
So, if we replaced the pistol grip with one that doesn't allow the selector to turn all the way to Auto, wouldn't that be enough? The gun can't fire full auto with semiauto trigger, hammer, and sear in a DSA receiver.

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 8:02 AM
If thats the way you want to do it but its just not the way I would go about it.

I would use the SA FCG parts as many of them as I could lay my hands on.

This would include the modifying the bolt carrier. Using a SA Hammer, Selector, Trigger plunger.


Using the SA parts would not really be that expensive 25 or so for the SA selector and at the most 6-7 for the SA Trigger plunger.
Cheap insurance IMO.



So, if we replaced the pistol grip with one that doesn't allow the selector to turn all the way to Auto, wouldn't that be enough? The gun can't fire full auto with semiauto trigger, hammer, and sear in a DSA receiver.

-hanko
02-17-2007, 8:26 AM
This would include the modifying the bolt carrier.

Not seeing any difference between a fa and sa bolt carrier, last 2 dsa's I've worked on came from the factory with bolt carriers identical to what I've seen in kit guns.

Got your pm, thank you

-hanko

SemiAutoSam
02-17-2007, 8:51 AM
On the bottom of the FN FAL bolt carrier there is a "TANG" for lack of a better term that when a Safety sear is installed in the rifle lets the safety sear perform its job.

I found this pic on the DSA site the tang on the top or as it would sit in the rifle it would be on the left side rear bottom of the BC.

I realise that this part alone will not make it function full auto. I'm just stating this part is the full auto bolt carrier and if the "TANG" is modified to the length of the one on the right side it will be the same as the SA bolt carrier that FN supplied with the SA rifles that they imported.



http://www.dsarms.com/images/P033.JPG

Not seeing any difference between a fa and sa bolt carrier, last 2 dsa's I've worked on came from the factory with bolt carriers identical to what I've seen in kit guns.

Got your pm, thank you

-hanko

Incitatus
02-17-2007, 9:11 AM
Stopped by Entreprise in Irvingdale to buy a new 10 round FAL magazine two days ago. They are taking orders for receivers at $269 a piece, up from $219; the waiting list is about 60 days. The new pricing on the Imbel kits they sell went up to $199 from $149 unfinished.
Last August I spent $675 all toghether for my FrankenFAL build. I believe if I would have to build another one these days, I would need to spend close to $1000. Considering this, probably it would be wiser to buy a new DSA CAL-FAL from Turner's for $1,199.

Zwingli
02-17-2007, 9:19 AM
I actually found it much easier to build than an AK. You'll need a barrel Vise, Receiver wrench,locking shoulder gauges and Head space gauges as special tools. Can all be had for around 150. Gunplumber's video will tell you how to do it or you can piece it together on the FAL files. Once you get everything ready it can be done in 3-4 hours. You may need a different locking shoulder for head space.

blacklisted
02-17-2007, 11:29 AM
That's like asking if 80% lowers are really 80% complete.

As I'm sure you know, logic doesn't apply when dealing with the ATF. They make a 'decision' expect you to follow it (even if it is an internal decision that is not mentioned very often). It's sort of like the CA DOJ.

For whatever reason, they don't regulate full auto parts in many guns the same way they do with the AR.


If BATF regulates the M16 parts in a AR15 doesn't the same logic apply to FA parts in a semi auto FAL rifle ?


FULL AUTO PARTS
FAL112 FAL Ejector $5.00
FAL111 FAL Ejector Block $20.00
FAL115 FAL Ejector Block Pins $2.00
FAL113 FAL/L1A1 Safety Sear 3/$14.95, 10/$39.95 $5.95,
FAL114 FAL Safety Sear Spring $2.00

SemiAutoSam
08-16-2007, 10:10 PM
Sorry for the delay in showing this.


Below is what some Actual FN FAL Rifles came with when they were imported from Belgium. This is the SEMI AUTO Trigger Plunger.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-2/950396/MVC-002.JPG


Below is the standard Trigger Plunger AKA the Full Auto Trigger Plunger.
http://www.dsarms.com/images/065.jpg




Not a matter if the hammer falls or not in the fa position, it's whether or not a second round is fired.

Still waiting on the difference between a semi and fa trigger plunger...I've worn out Steven's book trying to find what it is.:D

ATF's letter to Browning regarding legality of imported Belgian guns says that without the safety sear cut in the receiver, the gun is considered legal. The letter offers some additional SUGGESTIONS (NOT requirements) regarding blocking the selector's FA position. That may be a point of confusion (perhaps for both of us). I'd ask the question on the fal files.

-hanko

adamsreeftank
08-17-2007, 2:27 AM
...
Basically, there are 17 evil parts, so you must get rid of 7. Many people are starting with a US Made receiver, so you only need to get rid of 6.

A US Made hammer, trigger, and sear are 3.
Buttstock, pistol grip, and handguards are 3.
Or the mag body, follower and floorplate are 3.

...


So U.S. made receiver, hammer, trigger, sear, safety selector, piston, MMGrip and no muzzle device should be GTG. ?

-hanko
08-17-2007, 3:59 AM
So U.S. made receiver, hammer, trigger, sear, safety selector, piston, MMGrip and no muzzle device should be GTG. ?
Yep;). US furniture (Penguin or Ironwood Designs or Century) is also a possibility. You can also find US made mag parts.

hth

-hanko.