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ZapThyCat
02-15-2007, 3:33 PM
Hey guys...

I dropped by a local gunstore today and got to admiring a FN model Five-Seven. The owner/operator was telling me some things about it that I thought interesting, and I was thinking that if it's all true, EVERYONE would have one. I want to know if he was trying to sell me a gun or if he really thought the gun was all that. There was another guy that came in and seemed VERY enthusiastic about the gun.

He said:

-The gun is incredibly accurate
-The gun is incredibly reliable
-The gun and it's ammo are light (I verified this).
-The bullets will penetrate a good 1/2 inch steel plate
-The rounds will not go through a person, but will hit and expand and stop, virtually putting someone down instantly
-The rounds will penetrate any body armor, including V-level.
-The gun's "kick" is about 60% or less that of a 9mm.

If this is all true, then the ONLY drawback to this gun is the high price tag ($1,100) and then it beats every other handgun in every other catagory.

More penetration than a 50AE...
Less kick than a 9mm...
More accurate than a .45acp...
More lethal than .44mag...
More reliable than 1911...
Lighter than a .22...

So my question, again, is this: Was this dude just giving me a line, or is this gun really all he said it is?

And if this gun *IS* all he said it is, then WHY isn't it the most wanted and talked about gun in California?

Thanks for the help! :D

grammaton76
02-15-2007, 3:38 PM
The bullets will penetrate a good 1/2 inch steel plate

I think this is true for the LEO RESTRICTED AP ammunition, but not the civilian stuff. FN will only sell civilians polymer tipped or HP's. It's not illegal for them to sell you FMJs, but they won't. You could reload FMJs though, if you wanted to, and may get decent penetration. Almost certainly not a half inch of steel, though. FMJs will penetrate way better than what we can buy, but not nearly as well as the LE-only AP loads.

-The rounds will not go through a person, but will hit and expand and stop, virtually putting someone down instantly

I call BS on that. The projectile is a lighter grain version of the same .224 projectiles we use in AR's, and hollow points out of an AR don't have magic kill factor. I absolutely agree that it's nice be nice, but it's not magically better than everything else out there.

-The rounds will penetrate any body armor, including V-level.

When using FMJs vs soft body armor, or when using restricted ammunition, this is probably correct. If I'm not mistaken, the HP setup is actually specifically tailored not to penetrate the soft body armor commonly used by LEOs, which is why FN won't sell anyone the FMJ stuff.

If you're looking for a handgun that'll penetrate soft body armor with off-the-shelf ammo, go for a CZ-52 or another handgun chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:39 PM
Hey guys...

I dropped by a local gunstore today and got to admiring a FN model Five-Seven. The owner/operator was telling me some things about it that I thought interesting, and I was thinking that if it's all true, EVERYONE would have one. I want to know if he was trying to sell me a gun or if he really thought the gun was all that. There was another guy that came in and seemed VERY enthusiastic about the gun.

He said:

-The gun is incredibly accurate Don't know
-The gun is incredibly reliable Don't know
-The gun and it's ammo are light (I verified this). Yes
-The bullets will penetrate a good 1/2 inch steel plate I doubt it
-The rounds will not go through a person, but will hit and expand and stop, virtually putting someone down instantly Hah...yeah right
-The rounds will penetrate any body armor, including V-level. BS.
-The gun's "kick" is about 60% or less that of a 9mm. True

If this is all true, then the ONLY drawback to this gun is the high price tag ($1,100) and then it beats every other handgun in every other catagory.

More penetration than a 50AE...
Less kick than a 9mm...
More accurate than a .45acp...
More lethal than .44mag...
More reliable than 1911...
Lighter than a .22...

So my question, again, is this: Was this dude just giving me a line, or is this gun really all he said it is?

And if this gun *IS* all he said it is, then WHY isn't it the most wanted and talked about gun in California?

Thanks for the help! :D
Basically, think of 5.7 as a "223 light." It'll do everything a .223 will, except not as well, and with less weight and recoil.

The only reason it penetrates anything is because it's pointy, but it's light so it isn't magical. Level III armor would surely defeat it. Anything that defeats .223 will absolutely defeat 5.7mm.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:42 PM
Just remember no dealer is going to show you a 1100 dollar gun and say "Aw man, this POS jams all the time and it fires a bullet meant for a mouse, if you could even hit it since the damn thing is impossible to shoot well" ;)

And oh yeah...MOST INDOOR RANGES WON'T LET YOU SHOOT 5.7MM.

Don't forget that part!

rips31
02-15-2007, 4:03 PM
Hey guys...

I dropped by a local gunstore today and got to admiring a FN model Five-Seven. The owner/operator was telling me some things about it that I thought interesting, and I was thinking that if it's all true, EVERYONE would have one. I want to know if he was trying to sell me a gun or if he really thought the gun was all that. There was another guy that came in and seemed VERY enthusiastic about the gun.

He said:

-The gun is incredibly accurate YES
-The gun is incredibly reliable YES
-The gun and it's ammo are light (I verified this). YES
-The bullets will penetrate a good 1/2 inch steel plate NO
-The rounds will not go through a person, but will hit and expand and stop, virtually putting someone down instantly YES/NO (average penetration depth is ~9-10". ammo does not expand, it yaws/tumbles. 1-shot stop is pretty mythical)
-The rounds will penetrate any body armor, including V-level. YES/NO (civvie ammo will go thru IIa and maybe some IIIa. leo ammo will penetrate more.)
-The gun's "kick" is about 60% or less that of a 9mm. YES

If this is all true, then the ONLY drawback to this gun is the high price tag ($1,100) and then it beats every other handgun in every other catagory. you can get this gun for ~$800 nib, online.

More penetration than a 50AE...
Less kick than a 9mm...
More accurate than a .45acp...
More lethal than .44mag...
More reliable than 1911...
Lighter than a .22...

So my question, again, is this: Was this dude just giving me a line, or is this gun really all he said it is? 50/50

And if this gun *IS* all he said it is, then WHY isn't it the most wanted and talked about gun in California? poor marketing

Thanks for the help! :D
in a nutshell, this ammo is designed for a smg/pdw. the fiveseven pistol was developed to be a companion sidearm for the smg. anyone that tells you that this is a 'weak' rifle round is a moron. it was never designed to be a rifle round. anyone that tells you that this is a 'fast' pistol round is right, but it don't forget that it wasn't officially designed for that, either.

while leo fmj ammo is restricted, the civvie hp ammo is the same thing, but with a hole drilled in. however, it isn't designed to expand, like traditional hp bullets. it still performs like the fmj ammo.

your best bet is to check out fivesevenforum.com. they've got all your answers there. or, you can also find one of us that have a fiveseven and shoot it. :)

DANGERCLOSE
02-15-2007, 4:22 PM
seems to be an intermediate round, somewhere between pistol and rifle. at least thats what i think it was designed for. i was oogling the pistol at a range/store in fresno. i liked everything about it like yourself, but i would have to shoot one before i would buy one. after i shoot one, i will probably buy it for carry.

fred40
02-15-2007, 4:26 PM
I wanted one. Until I found out the price of ammo.

rips31
02-15-2007, 4:55 PM
I wanted one. Until I found out the price of ammo.
price of ammo isn't bad. it's ~$18/50. unlike 'regular' ammo, where there's fmj and hp, there's no difference with 5.7x28 ammo. you buy the hp and it performs like fmj. it's equivalent to buying the premium stuff (eg hydrashok). so, you end up training with what you'd use for defence. it's actually cheaper than buying hydrashock or other 'premium' defence ammo.

gotta keep perspective. :)

ZapThyCat
02-15-2007, 4:59 PM
Well, the dude showed me some steel plate he had, probably around 3/4 thick... and he showed me a round of 5.7 that he shot into it, and it penetrated far deeper than the .50AE or anything else... it actually went pretty close to through....

grammaton76
02-15-2007, 5:01 PM
Well, the dude showed me some steel plate he had, probably around 3/4 thick... and he showed me a round of 5.7 that he shot into it, and it penetrated far deeper than the .50AE or anything else... it actually went pretty close to through....

Yes, but there are a few questions there.

#1, what kind of ammunition did he use?
#2, was it really from a 5.7 pistol, or might it have come from a PS90?

Franksremote
02-15-2007, 5:21 PM
See below for your answers. You can shoot mine if you ever get to the Bay Area and we goto a range that'll allow it.

Hey guys...

I dropped by a local gunstore today and got to admiring a FN model Five-Seven. The owner/operator was telling me some things about it that I thought interesting, and I was thinking that if it's all true, EVERYONE would have one. I want to know if he was trying to sell me a gun or if he really thought the gun was all that. There was another guy that came in and seemed VERY enthusiastic about the gun.

He said:

-The gun is incredibly accurate - Yup, lack of recoil takes alittle getting used to
-The gun is incredibly reliable - and clean shooting, barely anything to clean after 250 rounds
-The gun and it's ammo are light (I verified this). - You got it
-The bullets will penetrate a good 1/2 inch steel plate - Umm, not too sure about this one
-The rounds will not go through a person, but will hit and expand and stop, virtually putting someone down instantly - Don't know about putting people down instantly, but it is designed to not overpenetrate and from the stuff I've shot with it, seems to be the case. Giant wound cavity from the yawing effect. Not so much with the civi stuff, but still very effective.
-The rounds will penetrate any body armor, including V-level. - Not true. The ss195/ss197 will routinely penetrate Level II but you need the LEO ss190 in order to "penetrate" level II armor
-The gun's "kick" is about 60% or less that of a 9mm. - True, kinda like shooting a slightly hopped up .22
If this is all true, then the ONLY drawback to this gun is the high price tag ($1,100) and then it beats every other handgun in every other catagory. It's a fun gun but not as practical as any of my 1911s
More penetration than a 50AE...
Less kick than a 9mm...
More accurate than a .45acp...
More lethal than .44mag...
More reliable than 1911...
Lighter than a .22...

So my question, again, is this: Was this dude just giving me a line, or is this gun really all he said it is?

And if this gun *IS* all he said it is, then WHY isn't it the most wanted and talked about gun in California?

Thanks for the help! :D

blkA4alb
02-15-2007, 5:23 PM
One thing I can tell you about the 5.7 is that when shot at the thickest portion of a bowling pin, it went through and through ;) .

scootergmc
02-15-2007, 5:53 PM
That's kinda cool. A .45-70 will send it into 10 billion pieces. :D

saki302
02-15-2007, 7:03 PM
The civilian ammo (SS195/192)is far from an SS190 AP round witha hole drilled in it- the construction is very different. It lacks the penetrator, and is supposed to yaw in flesh to create damage.
The SS196/197 stuff is supposed to actually expand, but has less energy than the SS195 rounds.

As far as penetrating armor goes, the civvy rounds DON'T (at least not level II). It's been tested. Penetration is similar to a 7.62x25 Tokarev round. 7.62 Tok and 9mm +P+ subgun ammo have penetrated level I armor in my own tests, so I'm sure this will too.

Recoil is hard to describe- like a quick snap with hardly any muzzle flip. It most surely doesn not kick like a .22LR, or even a magnum for that matter, and it's LOUD.

The only thing that really bugs me is the mag cap limit here- 20 rounds vs. 10 is a big difference, compared to 12 vs. 10 in a .40.

Somehow I keep picturing a miniature M2HB belt fed with these rounds, and I smile :D They really look like mini rifle rounds.

-Dave

rocknut
02-15-2007, 7:17 PM
I've got one in Sac if you would like to shoot it. It is VERY fun.

The ammo is a little pricey but its getting better. You can't buy the AP ss190 ammo, but the ss195 is a hot round. Its solid aluminum cored and doesn't expand when shooting a wood block. You can also buy the barnes solid bullet to reload with. I've shot about 500 rounds through mine and never had a failure of any sort yet. I've never shot a steel plate. The recoil is a lot lighter than my sig 226 in 9mm. The grip is a bit long but my hands are big so I like it. I've shot one with the 20 round mags in nevada and it was a blast. There are a couple local stored that stock the ammo, but you won't find it at wal-mart. I order mine online to save some $$$.

Most importantly, $1100 is WWAAAAAAAAYYYYY to much. I paid $765 for mine NIB off gunbroker. Find a local FFL and get it that way. The money you save in tax will more than make up for the FFL fees.

Ryan HBC
02-15-2007, 8:32 PM
I might just be really tired, but I swear I just saw someone say the the 5.7 is more lethal than a .44 mag.

billyjoblack
02-15-2007, 8:40 PM
I shot LE&MILITARY ONLY marked ammo threw my 5.7 at a PASGT helmet (DID NOT PENETRATE)

leelaw
02-15-2007, 9:37 PM
First, the guy is overcharging you by a couple hundred, unless that's for the IOM version.

The specifications he gave on the ammo as to armor piercing, is only possible with the LEO/Mil ONLY ammunition. I've verified that SS192 and SS195LF will penetrate through a level II vest, but level III defeats the round.

Just about everything else is correct. It's a nice gun, and I enjoy shooting mine very much.

http://www.apt401.com/fn57iom.jpg

The obligatory 5-7 pic :D

ivanimal
02-16-2007, 4:50 AM
Bar none the coolest gun I own:D

I keep threatening to start reloading for it. My problem is the lack of good reload info on the case and horror stories from people doing test loads.

Low recoil and accuracy are the main things that I like followed by light and ergonomic. People buy guns for different reasons. I have a 38 special for home defense so the anti personel aspects of the gun do not excite me. I think it would be hell on squirell though.:cool:

ZapThyCat
02-16-2007, 6:20 AM
Well overall it sounds like a really cool gun, and even with the "lines" that the dealer was giving me, it still sounds like a gun that I would really want to get.

It a lot more appealing to me as well, when I look at a $750 price tag instead of $1150. Gunbroker is always cheaper than real-life sellers.

If someone around has a place to shoot one, I'd love to take a few shots sometime. I'd gladly buy my own ammo...

THANKS FOR THE HELP GUYS!

Franksremote
02-16-2007, 7:34 AM
Saw this posted on 5.7.com, evidently they work pretty well on ground hogs :D

http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3141&highlight=ground+hog

They've got reload data as well. http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1979&highlight=reloading

I'd be interested in reloading for this round as well, can you let me know how your tests go?

Bar none the coolest gun I own:D

I keep threatening to start reloading for it. My problem is the lack of good reload info on the case and horror stories from people doing test loads.

Low recoil and accuracy are the main things that I like followed by light and ergonomic. People buy guns for different reasons. I have a 38 special for home defense so the anti personel aspects of the gun do not excite me. I think it would be hell on squirell though.:cool:

It is a really cool gun! Most outdoor ranges allow the round and Jackson Arms in SSF does for indoor ranges. We're heading to LARnG today, if you can make it, let me know and I'll bring my USG. You're welcome to send a few downrange. :D

Well overall it sounds like a really cool gun, and even with the "lines" that the dealer was giving me, it still sounds like a gun that I would really want to get.

It a lot more appealing to me as well, when I look at a $750 price tag instead of $1150. Gunbroker is always cheaper than real-life sellers.

If someone around has a place to shoot one, I'd love to take a few shots sometime. I'd gladly buy my own ammo...

THANKS FOR THE HELP GUYS!

dragonbait1a
02-16-2007, 8:01 AM
On the reloading front, what bullets would you use? Do Standard .223 (like reloading for .223 Remington) work?

Or, is this a strange diameter that is harder to find.

Academic for me as I have no capacity for reloading and no 5.7 to reload for. But useful info all the same.

RGB

Rumpled
02-16-2007, 9:42 AM
I don't reload 5.7, but as I understand, they are standard .223 bullets; in the light weights. 25 and 40 gr I think.

I keep repeating this, but I think FN should make a subcompact of this in a 10 rd configuration. That would be a great lightweight carry gun; very low weight, 10 rd capacity, hi velocity pistol round with good penetration for SD.

ivanimal
02-16-2007, 10:05 AM
I am a member of the five seven forums, The only powder I was interested in using based on members results was the Power Pistol. It seems accurate decided to discontinue it, I have looked for it as it is recently dropped but no luck yet. I suppose I will try again with a different powder.

I bought 500 40 grain vmax and 200 35 grain speer match for projectiles. I will se which I like and go from there.

wooger
02-17-2007, 3:52 PM
Is SS192 is legal to have in CA?

Rumpled
02-17-2007, 6:04 PM
SS192 is legal in CA, even though FN pulled it from the market.
Here's a good rundown on 5.7 ammo
http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330

Civies can have 192, 195,196,197 Not sure about the 194 training round.
192 and 196 have been discountinued as well, but you can find it and it is legal.

rocknut
02-18-2007, 8:59 AM
The 195 and 197 are what you want anyway.

I love the idea of a compact version. I'd be curious what would happen to the velocities out of a shorter barrel though.

I don't know if I've ever let anyone shoot the gun who didn't offer to buy or trade it off of me... Not kidding...

luvtolean
02-18-2007, 9:06 AM
I don't know if I've ever let anyone shoot the gun who didn't offer to buy or trade it off of me... Not kidding...

I'm not sure I'd squeeze a couple rounds off through one if offered...I just know I'd end up DROS'ing one almost immediately.

Bottleneck, high pressure rounds in pistols are just fun...

rips31
02-20-2007, 11:18 AM
SS192 is legal in CA, even though FN pulled it from the market.
Here's a good rundown on 5.7 ammo
http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=330

Civies can have 192, 195,196,197 Not sure about the 194 training round.
192 and 196 have been discountinued as well, but you can find it and it is legal.
t194 isn't legal.

Rumpled
02-20-2007, 1:51 PM
rips31
That's what I thought, but wasn't positive. I understand it has been discontinued as well.

195 is my preferred round, as close to the original intended purpose as possible.

rips31
02-20-2007, 2:57 PM
rumpled-

t194 was the training round for the ss190 (ap) and the precursor to the ss192. it is, for some reason, half-considered ap, altho it's construction is the same as ss192, probably b/c of it's designation. bottom line is that it's technically legal, just not really good to flash it around, so best to say it's not legal and everyone's safe.

most people i've talked to have had more misfires with t194 than with any of the other factory ammo. i have a sealed can of ss192 (shtf) and several cases of ss195 that i use for plinking/home defence.

g2jap
02-20-2007, 7:21 PM
are these the same size rounds as the p90?

bunkerbuster
02-21-2007, 5:01 PM
I am only down to 3 boxes of SS195LF now :(


rumpled-

t194 was the training round for the ss190 (ap) and the precursor to the ss192. it is, for some reason, half-considered ap, altho it's construction is the same as ss192, probably b/c of it's designation. bottom line is that it's technically legal, just not really good to flash it around, so best to say it's not legal and everyone's safe.

most people i've talked to have had more misfires with t194 than with any of the other factory ammo. i have a sealed can of ss192 (shtf) and several cases of ss195 that i use for plinking/home defence.