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thukidad
10-26-2011, 11:01 AM
A questions for AR hunters out there:

Iíve searched numerous forums, but Iíve yet to encounter this question. Iím considering
obtaining an AR pistol in 6.8SPC platform for close range (under 100 yards) hunting. The
reason being that most deers Iíve encounter in the woods are under 100 yards. I see no point in
carry around a large caliber bolt action rifle if I donít plan on taking on a shot over 100 yards.
The area in which I normally hunt is really dense with lots of wood and bushes. Lugging around
a long rifle is overly encumber some trying to navigate through these bushes. I started playing
with the idea of an AR pistol mainly due to weight and ease of maneuverability. Does anyone use
an AR pistol to hunt deer with?

Nothing Iíve researched stated that I cannot hunt with this type of firearm. California 2011-2012
Mammal Hunting Regulation Booklet states pursuant to Section 353 (c), the method for taking
big game allows use of a pistol and revolvers using centerfire cartridges with softnose or
expading projectiles. I believe the AR pistol falls under this category, please correct me if Iím
wrong.

Iíve contacted my local DFGís office, whom Iíve been corresponding with, stated in email that if
it is a pistol and purchased in the State of California , it should be no problem. Unfortunately, he
also indicated that the warden have not had any kind of training in regards to this type of weapon
system. This poses another questions, in the event Iím stopped by the game warden, how can I
inform or educate him and/or her of the legality of this type of firearm without me being detained
or worst yet, my firearm confiscated. I believe given his response, the firearm may be
misconstrued by the game warden as an illegal short barrel rifle.

I do plan on having in my possession as at all time while actively hunting: My hunting license, a
deer and/or bear tag, Dros paper work indicating the firearm is registered as a pistol, receipt of
purchase of the firearm. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

180ls1
10-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Meh it sounds cool but i dont like it. There is a reason why everyone and their mother uses a bolt cation rifle for hunting. I also question how accurate you will be and the killing force that round will have, sure it can kill a deer but i would like something bigger.

If your really worried about weight/size i would just pick up a single shot rossi youth .243, it will be very small, light and inexpensive along with being a better round and rifle for hunting.

thukidad
10-26-2011, 12:02 PM
180ls1: I understand the uses and practicality of a bolt action rifle. I own them myself. In regards to accuracy, I'm pretty confidence in my shot place under 100 yards. Most encounter are usually within 20 - 40 yards. I believe the 6.8SPC round is more than sufficient in taking California size deer. I'm not really interested in the .243 round.

Spelunker
10-26-2011, 12:24 PM
6.8 spc takes out 400lb hogs that are alot tougher than deer so yes, if you can be on target at 100yds then it will anchor that deer.

thukidad
10-26-2011, 12:39 PM
Spelunker: I agree. Its a very effective round, especially from a shorter barrel than other caliber. Hince, why I'm contemplating an AR pistol for hunting deer. Will probably be opting between 10.5" or 12.5" barrel.

DirtyDave
10-26-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes it would be legal. But like you said, the Warden's knowledge of its legality is something you cannot control. You may get hassled, you may not. It WILL attract attention though, whether by a LEO, a hiker, or other hunters. AR pistols are not something the general public even know exist hahaha.

thukidad
10-26-2011, 1:16 PM
DirtyDave: This is something that I've considered. I'm still seeking some light on this matter as it would benefit me in my hunting expedition.

bigboarstopper
10-26-2011, 2:04 PM
I have to disagree completely with this idea. Hunting conditions and situations contastantly change. Using a mindset that your hunting experience will only happen at a certain time and in a certain way is recipe for failure.

Im all about light rifles. I dont like carrying a heavy rifle. But choose the best tool that will cover you in as many situations possible. Not the other way around. Heres an example: you shoot a deer at lesss than a 100 yards with your 223. AR pistol, like you expect. The deer is shot but manages to limp cross the hill its on and is now 275yds away. 275yds is now completely out of your range and your using the remainder of your 10rd magazine in a hail mary to finish it off before it gets the rest of the way over the hill.

Situations like the one above are things you not only need to consider but expect.

CSACANNONEER
10-26-2011, 2:11 PM
While my AK pistol consistantly hits the steel plate at Angeles at 200 and 300 yards (off a rest), I'd never consider deer hunting with it. I have a few '94s in 30-30 that make excellent 100 yard brush guns. I will carry the extra couple of pounds just to ensure that I make a clean and humane one shot kill.

thukidad
10-26-2011, 3:06 PM
bigboarstopper: I was kind of hoping you shim in with your expertise. You have a valid argument in regards to changing conditions. Though I must correct you that the caliber of choice is 6.8SPC and not .223, but that irrelevant. Given that the terrain I usually hunting has a clear line of fire of no more than probably 100 yards in any direction within a 5 mile radius, again in any direction (I'm very familiar with this terrain as I've walked through it all, thus the burdesome rifle question). Given the better performance of the 6.8SPC round, I feel confident that firing a round through that type of a firearm will be sufficient enough even to 200 yards. I'm feel confident in my shooting ability that a clean and humane shot can be taken with such a firearm without hindering my mobility. I'm sure you're fully aware to the weight of carrying back a kill miles from your transportation or camp.

Whiterabbit
10-26-2011, 10:41 PM
since you don't have the pistol yet, why not a more traditional hunting pistol? Plenty of caliber options from 44 mag on up that would work and not create ANY of the questions you've brought up.

DannyInSoCal
10-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Simple - Build a .308 AR pistol instead.

And write a letter with your questions -

Then carry the response letter with you on your hunt to help educate the Warden...

thukidad
10-27-2011, 6:45 AM
Whiterabbit: I've considered this also, but I would like to use a firearm that I have more confident in at range above 50 yards. I wouldn't have that with a 44mag.

DannyInSoCal: I believe the 6.8SPC round is more than sufficient and that the .308 would be more of an overkill in taking a big game under 100 yards. As stated previously, I've contacted the local warden via email and he stated that as long as its a pistol and bought in the GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA, it should be no problem. Problem is he also stated that no formal training has been provided to the game warden on the firearm. I'll probably more than likely submit a formal letter via certified mail to the Northern and Central office.

franklinarmory
10-27-2011, 6:59 AM
I have to disagree completely with this idea. Hunting conditions and situations contastantly change. Using a mindset that your hunting experience will only happen at a certain time and in a certain way is recipe for failure.

Im all about light rifles. I dont like carrying a heavy rifle. But choose the best tool that will cover you in as many situations possible. Not the other way around. Heres an example: you shoot a deer at lesss than a 100 yards with your 223. AR pistol, like you expect. The deer is shot but manages to limp cross the hill its on and is now 275yds away. 275yds is now completely out of your range and your using the remainder of your 10rd magazine in a hail mary to finish it off before it gets the rest of the way over the hill.

Situations like the one above are things you not only need to consider but expect.

It all depends on what the IP uses. .223 is insufficient, but a 6.8 is great for 100 yards. Our XO-26 in 7.62x39 leaves the muzzle at 2200 fps. Ballistically it is on par with the 30/30, and we all know that caliber is suitable and sporting for deer, medium pigs, and even bear at the tree. If that's not enough we also make it in 450 BM!

Sorry tp make this a Franklin ad, but we also make some of pistol lowers with a "California model" inscription on the mag well. This is designed to allow LEOs an easy way to identify the weapon as legal in the field.

Lastly, I recommend the use of copper projectiles be ause they have better terminal performance.

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 7:36 AM
Whiterabbit: I've considered this also, but I would like to use a firearm that I have more confident in at range above 50 yards. I wouldn't have that with a 44mag.

DannyInSoCal: I believe the 6.8SPC round is more than sufficient and that the .308 would be more of an overkill in taking a big game under 100 yards. As stated previously, I've contacted the local warden via email and he stated that as long as its a pistol and bought in the GREAT STATE OF CALIFORNIA, it should be no problem. Problem is he also stated that no formal training has been provided to the game warden on the firearm. I'll probably more than likely submit a formal letter via certified mail to the Northern and Central office.

What is the Wardens rationale for stating it must have been purchased in CA? Or is he simply meaning to say it needs to be registered? Is this something they can require?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 7:43 AM
Franklinarmory: Agree with your assessment.

Its not the type of caliber or firearm that is in question. I'm specifically looking for direction in event I come into contact with a game warden. I believe he/she may misconstrue my firearm as a illegal configuartion of a rifle. The worst case scenario would be to have my firearm confiscated and/or a free ride to the county facility. How would I present my position to the game warden and advise him/her that the firearm in question is a register pistol and CA compliant?

Upon request of inspection of the firearm by the game warden. How can I advise him/her that I'll only allow them to visually inspect the firearm but would not let them attempt to remove, open, or adjust my firearm in any way? Is there a specific code for this?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 7:47 AM
Untamed1972: The warden never stated that it MUST be purchased from this great state of ours. He simply stated that it would be no problem if it was purchase in CA. I'm trying to minimize as much as possible any loop hole or angle the game warden may use to detain me. I'll be purchasing the complete firearm from a vendor in CA and complete paperwork of the transaction with me at all time while actively hunting.

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 7:53 AM
I would have no problems with the available energy of a handloaded 44 mag under 100 yards. Not that that matters for what you are really looking for. I DID suggest 44 and up though, if you feel you need a 500 mag to take down a small deer.

I’m considering
obtaining an AR pistol in 6.8SPC platform for close range hunting.

I started playing
with the idea of an AR pistol mainly due to weight and ease of maneuverability.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Its not the type of caliber or firearm that is in question. I'm specifically looking for direction in event I come into contact with a game warden.

I misinterpreted your original post, though I DO think you will be far better off buying a T/C contender in 6.8 SPC and save the black rifle stuff for paper punching. (I'm actually very surprised how cheap the T/C barrel is compared to more popular calibers.)

My understanding was that it's not the warden's job to interpret the law, just enforce it. So if they make a mistake, then it's your job to tell the judge that, yes? If you are legal and the warden makes a mistake, then shouldn't you have no problems getting a judge to correct the problem?

why go chasing trouble?

taperxz
10-27-2011, 7:58 AM
OP, your concerns are unfounded. It is legal to hunt with a registered AW if one wanted to. A game warden is concerned with a limited amount of problems, is the hunter using a center fired cartridge for big game as required?, is the firearm loaded while traveling in a vehicle?, does the hunter have a license and tags as required? Inspection of game ect.

Your concern that a warden is going to question the legality of your weapon can happen with any uninformed LE. Even if a warded decided to take you to the county jail, there would be a good chance local LE or the sheriffs dept would advise him of its legality.

On a personal experience note and a life long hunter, Leave the AR pistol at home for hunting. Hunters have been using "hunting rifles" forever for a reason. No need to re invent the wheel.

Your 100 yard shot could turn into a 150 yard shot on the run. You need to have the ability to take down a wounded animal with the right tool.

gun toting monkeyboy
10-27-2011, 8:03 AM
You are stressing too much. All you need is centerfire and expanding bullets to satisfy the wardens. 6.8 was designed to work effectively through a 12" barrel. And what most people who have never fired an AR pistol don't realize is that it has about as much in common with regular pistols as a VW Bug has in common with a Ferrari. I wouldn't go hunting at 100 yards with a regular pistol, regardles of the caliber. But an AR pistol, despite its official designation, is for all intents and purposes, a small rifle. No, you don't fire it from the shoulder. But you do fire it from your cheek, like the old Portuguese and Japanese rifles from long ago. And it is plenty accurate and stable. Just not what many people are used to. In 6.8, there is no reason not to go for deer and hogs at the ranges you talk about. Especially with the newer generations of bullets designed for 6.8. The Barnes TSX and the Nosler ballistic tips are made to open up at 6.8 velocities, and have HUGE followings in the deer and hog hunting communities now. I think what you are looking at is both reasonable and ethical. And if I ever finish up my current projects, I plan on doing exactly the same thing and building a 12" upper for my AR pistol. I fly to Texas for hogs often enough that I am getting sick of dragging 2 6.8 rifles with us every time. If I go the pistol route, and can break both guns down enough to fit in a much smaller case. The hogs will never know the difference.

-Mb

thukidad
10-27-2011, 8:18 AM
whiterabbit: I completely agree with you in regards to LE enforcing the law and not interpeting the. I have nothing but respect for everyone if the different service branches. Thing is, I'm not intentionally chase trouble, but I want to hunt in my own way.

taperxz: I understand your response. I too own hunting rifles, but that not what I'm asking. The men of past has been using spear to hunt all their lives, we now generally use rifle, I would just like to try something different yet effective. Can you blame me? I would like my hunting experience to suit my needs instead of what the pack would considered norm.

gun_toting_monkeyboy: Barnes TSX is exactly the round I'm consider using.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 8:27 AM
whiterabbit: I completely agree with you in regards to LE enforcing the law and not interpeting the. I have nothing but respect for everyone if the different service branches. Thing is, I'm not intentionally chase trouble, but I want to hunt in my own way.

taperxz: I understand your response. I too own hunting rifles, but that not what I'm asking. The men of past has been using spear to hunt all their lives, we now generally use rifle, I would just like to try something different yet effective. Can you blame me? I would like my hunting experience to suit my needs instead of what the pack would considered norm.

gun_toting_monkeyboy: Barnes TSX is exactly the round I'm consider using.

Ya, they used spears because thats all they had. They also went out in groups, wounded lots of animals and had no problem spending days going out to look for the wounded animals. It was their job to bring back food for all.

Isn't an AR pistol a single shot firearm? If gut shot are you prepared to track that animal for miles when a clean back up shot from an old 94 winchester would have done the trick? There are ethics involved in sport hunting. Even a standard revolver has the ability to follow up.

I guess if you prefer to rebuild an engine with a cresent wrench and screw driver........

taperxz
10-27-2011, 8:31 AM
Regardless, even though i disagree with use of that weapon for hunting JMO, The first part of my response is spot on and answered your concerns.

thukidad
10-27-2011, 8:37 AM
taperxz: Agreed. Spear is all they had. But a hunting rifle is not all that available for us to use to take game in this state. And yes, I will and have tracked game upon my wounding them. I'm a big advocate of "if you decide to take a game, its the shooter/hunter responsibility to ensure that the game is killed no matter how long you have to track it" In my hunting party, we've never lost a deer after wounding it, as last year we tracked a buck for 2 days after the first initial shot and manage to track it down and kill it.

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 8:37 AM
I think the single shot idea is a non-starter. if the 6.8 is what he wants, I think the T/C contender is a great option. Traditional config that will carry well.

Thing is, I'm not intentionally chase trouble, but I want to hunt in my own way.

Here's an analogy.

I need to go to the courthouse and don't want to be seen as a lunatic or drug abuser. Thing is, I want to go in my own way and be myself, which is wearhing an open leather vest with no other shirt and a mohawk that is 6 inches long dyed red.

I want to make sure I will be taken seriously by law enforcement and not judged, all advice appreciated.

-----------------

My point is, your question as I understand it now is how to ensure you have no problems with wardens in the field. The answer is simple, and it has to do with appearances. The appearance of legitimacy trumps whatever documentation and paperwork you want to carry. It's legal to walk into a courthouse in leather and crazy hair, but the well dressed gentleman will have an easier time.

So my advice, and that of taper, as I read it? Go looking legitimate, and you won't have problems to begin with.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 8:41 AM
taperxz: Agreed. Spear is all they had. But a hunting rifle is not all that available for us to use to take game in this state. And yes, I will and have tracked game upon my wounding them. I'm a big advocate of "if you decide to take a game, its the shooter/hunter responsibility to ensure that the game is killed no matter how long you have to track it" In my hunting party, we've never lost a deer after wounding it, as last year we tracked a buck for 2 days after the first initial shot and manage to track it down and kill it.

What do you mean a hunting rifle is not all that available? just asking

Sure you have recovered your game which is great! Why increase the odds of having to track wounded game that does not die for days with a weapon that is not designed for the sport. again, just asking. It seems you want to increase the difficulty of the sport (thats cool) but at the expense of the animal.

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 8:41 AM
I think everyone is clear by the way that the original question has been answered. No reason not to flesh out the discussion more. Just my take on that.

I assume out OP meant that our classical notion of a hunting rifle is not the only tool that exists (therefore available) to get the job of hunting done, regardless of whether it is the best tool or not the best tool. That other options exist. Tacticool rifles, shotguns, muzzleloaders, hunting pistols, and in this case, non-hunting pistol. (human hunting pistol?). I think that's what he meant.

tozan
10-27-2011, 8:50 AM
Whiterabbit: I've considered this also, but I would like to use a firearm that I have more confident in at range above 50 yards. I wouldn't have that with a 44mag.


I have a light weight .308 easy to carry and capable of a 200 plus yard follow up shot. The TC Encore is a gret choice too.

http://xa3.xanga.com/f06e521ad4736278486888/m221828194.jpg

thukidad
10-27-2011, 8:52 AM
Whiterabbit: Yes, that is what I meant.

I appreciate all responses. Though I do have other firearm at my disposal, I would simply like to try something different. I feel that such a firearm may suit me for this particular location in which I hunt. In other area, I use a regular hunting rifle. I know every time these kind of subject pops up, if doesn't sit well with alot of people. Which is okay and welcomed because everyone has been very helpful.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 8:54 AM
Whiterabbit: Yes, that is what I meant.

I appreciate all responses. Though I do have other firearm at my disposal, I would simply like to try something different. I feel that such a firearm may suit me for this particular location in which I hunt. In other area, I use a regular hunting rifle. I know every time these kind of subject pops up, if doesn't sit well with alot of people. Which is okay and welcomed because everyone has been very helpful.

LOL I AGREE! Its almost like when is UOC acceptable and when is not...

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 8:58 AM
thuki, it seems to me that you want to use an AR pistol for the sake of using an AR pistol, not for finding the best tool for the job. I have no doubts a different firearm would be either just as suited or more suited for the job, and get you where you want to be from a warden-hassle standpoint. Seems to me that at this point you want to do it for the principle of the thing. I thought after post #2 that it sounded alot like the UOC issue. Alot.

Tozan: That thing is awesome. who makes that?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 9:04 AM
Whiterabbit: LOL, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be a knucklehead (though my wife would say other wise) I like the idea of a small, compact, lightweight firearm with the ability to hold a 10 round magazine and fire a 6.8SPC round or better. Thats it. If you can point me to a better direction in those critera, I'm all for it.

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 9:14 AM
Or better? I'm pretty sure a trapper lever action will get you there, with irons. Great brush type gun. If you slide on the 10 rounds it gets easier. I thought you would be more constrained around the 6.8 round than the capacity question. Hunting, right?

Just one option: Rossi level in 454 casull. (http://www.google.com/search?q=454+casull+elk+ethical%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1) If it is good enough for grizzly bear protection at 10 yards in alaska through a snub, it's good enough for large pigs at 100 through the woods. However, to get 10+1 you need the 20 inch barrel which faults your compact requirement. Down it to 8 and you can get a trapper model at 16". Down it to 5 rounds and you have options from a 12 inch barrel down to 2 inches.

And if you want really compact, I still think you should at least try a hunting revolver with a red dot. I'm a terrible shot and can hit steels at 100 yards with irons OK. Offhand, 1 out of 5. For 50 yards, I can easily hit minute of deer, every single shot. After I red dot it, my expectation is to be able to hunt to 100 yards offhand and slightly over if I have a field rest like a tree branch available. And I guarantee you that package will be smaller, lighter, easier to carry, and will pack more punch than 6.8 in an AR pistol.

And if you go with a smith X-frame, it'll be "semi-auto" too (double action). But capacity will only be 5, not 10. But that in itself (10 round requirement) seems to contradict your hunting style.

woods
10-27-2011, 9:15 AM
Go for it 11.5" 6.8 or 7.62 will take California's small deer or even a bear. The platform is accurate at 150 yards.

I use a much shorter 5" 45acp to hunt deer. Have taken a deer with my 5.7x28. I've never had a deer walk away from any caliber centerfire cartridge with good bullets used.

Sent from my Triumph using Tapatalk

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 9:21 AM
And if you kept your mouth shut about deer hunting, I can't imagine a warden that would blink twice if he found you carrying either of those pistols while hiking the woods. No comment about round suitability.

thukidad
10-27-2011, 9:25 AM
Whiterabbit: No lever action, personal perference. And yes, this is for hunting. I would much prefer the round to be 6.8 with the capability of a 10 magazine. Semi-auto is the preferred choice. Also, I don't like revolver. I know, I freakin picky with my ladies..

10 round is not a requirement, but personal preference only. You never know in the woods should the situation arise to need a higher capacity of round than say my bolt action. But when I carry the x-bolt, I carry the Kimber as well. Call me weird???

taperxz
10-27-2011, 9:27 AM
Whiterabbit: No lever action, personal perference. And yes, this is for hunting. I would much prefer the round to be 6.8 with the capability of a 10 magazine. Semi-auto is the preferred choice. Also, I don't like revolver. I know, I freakin picky with my ladies..

10 round is not a requirement, but personal preference only. You never know in the woods should the situation arise to need a higher capacity of round than say my bolt action. But when I carry the x-bolt, I carry the Kimber as well. Call me weird???

I'm sorry for showing my ignorance to this, but isn't an AR pistol single shot only?

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 9:36 AM
You are weird. original question is answered, but you only have one option. Prepare to get hassled if you meet a warden. I'd imagine noone would be willing to get bogged down reading anything or be told how to do their job ("no really, it's legal. really.") How you try to get treated seriously when in the field with the leather vest-no-shirt and mohawk is gonna be up to you.

otalps
10-27-2011, 9:59 AM
I'm sorry for showing my ignorance to this, but isn't an AR pistol single shot only?

No, only when purchased with the single shot exception. After it can be returned to semi-auto configuration.

thukidad
10-27-2011, 10:07 AM
taperxz: Yes, AR pistol can only by bought or transfer as single shot. Afterward, nothing in CA law stating you can remove the single shot sled.

Whiterabbit: I understand your point. The question I'm asking is not in regards to the legality or preference of caliber. I'm inquiry if there's possibly a procedure or some form of method in regards to dealing with LE that may not be up to par with current CA gun laws.

Whiterabbit
10-27-2011, 10:09 AM
Already been answered, but get ready to get hassled. I liked the suggestion to print out documents and ask the warden to read them on-site. I'd REALLY like to see that in action!

thukidad
10-27-2011, 10:19 AM
Whiterabbit: Only documents I'm providing in the event of contact are to indicate the firearm is a register pistol (dros paperwork and receipt paperwork indicating firearm about in CA) and not an illegal configuration of a rifle. It would be pointless to provide the warden with penal code and case law as they're not qualified to read them. As you stated before, they're simply there to enforce and not dicate the law.

gun toting monkeyboy
10-27-2011, 10:49 AM
I have never had any problems with my AR pistol. I have had it for around 2 years, and taken it all over the place to go shooting. The only time I have had law enforcement look at it closely was when one cop called another one of his buddies over to see it at the range, and tell him "See, this is what a legal AR pistol looks like." I had several guys working at different ranges do the same thing with the other employees there. Let me tell you, there is no other gun in my collection that attracts more attention than that one does. When you light off a .223 out of it, EVERYBODY knows it. Everbody comes over to see. And never once in all that time has anybody, law enforcement or otherwise, had any issue with it. I think part of that is the fact that it is obviously configured legally. I think the other major factor in it is that it is an Anvil Arms lower, and it has "Registered Pistol" laser etched in white lettering on the side of it. The laser etching doesn't mean squat legally. There is no requirement to have it there, and having it there doesn't prove that it is a legal pistol. BUT, it is the first thing that anybody sees when they look at it up close. And even cops see that and automatically assume that it is correct. Perception is very important. Real or not, needed or not, simply having that on mine has saved me from all kinds of problems, I am sure. And yes, I have let cops see it. And even fire it. They like cool toys as much as anybody else. There is just something about having that thing rattle your teeth that puts a smile on anybody's face.

-Mb

thukidad
10-27-2011, 11:11 AM
gun_toting_monkeyboy: "registered pistol" is one of the thing that I'm looking for engraved on the lower receiver.

gun toting monkeyboy
10-27-2011, 11:33 AM
Anvil used to put it on all their pistol lowers. All you need to do is take it to anyplace that does engraving or the laser engraving and have it put on there. There is nothing stopping anybody from doing that on any lower. It doesn't magically change the legal status of anything. It won't legally turn a long gun lower into a pistol lower. But it has been my experience thus far that people take one look at it and assume it is true. I am NOT saying that you should just take any old lower and get that put on there and try to fool people. But if you have a legal AR pistol lower, it can save you all kinds of trouble. I also have my original sales receipt from Anvil Arms stating that it is a pistol lower in the safe at home. I know I don't need it, but I would rather have it than not.

-Mb

YubaRiver
10-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Isn't an AR pistol a single shot firearm? If gut shot are you prepared to track that animal for miles when a clean back up shot from an old 94 winchester would have done the trick? There are ethics involved in sport hunting. Even a standard revolver has the ability to follow up.

I guess if you prefer to rebuild an engine with a cresent wrench and screw driver........

Guess you're not a fan of single shot Thompson's or Ruger #1 or archery
for that matter, for hunting?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 11:57 AM
gun_toting_monkeyboy: Yes, I understand that. And I agree, the marking does make it perceive to in a correct format.

tenpercentfirearms
10-27-2011, 12:58 PM
All this talk of what people should and shouldn't use to hunt animals makes me want to use my suppressed .223 AR15 pistol to go hunting. Evil!

taperxz
10-27-2011, 1:10 PM
Guess you're not a fan of single shot Thompson's or Ruger #1 or archery
for that matter, for hunting?

No I'm not a fan but I do archery hunt just not out to 100 yards
Most archery shots are at 25 to 30 yards

taperxz
10-27-2011, 1:11 PM
All this talk of what people should and shouldn't use to hunt animals makes me want to use my suppressed .223 AR15 pistol to go hunting. Evil!

You'd go hungry where I hunt

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 1:12 PM
taperxz: Yes, AR pistol can only by bought or transfer as single shot. Afterward, nothing in CA law stating you can remove the single shot sled.

Whiterabbit: I understand your point. The question I'm asking is not in regards to the legality or preference of caliber. I'm inquiry if there's possibly a procedure or some form of method in regards to dealing with LE that may not be up to par with current CA gun laws.

If your pistol is registered then I would think if a warden had an issue he could radio in and have it checked in the system. If it comes back showing it's registered then that really should be the end of the issue I would think.

And I dont blame you for wanting something that is good for close range and easy to move with thru thick brush.

For those worried about follow-up shots.....if you've ever taken a carbine course where they teach the "controlled pair"....well to me there is your answer. At 50yrd (or more with some prectice) you should be able to put a controlled pair on that deer before he barely fliches from the first hit, and prolly drop him where he stands.

Fact is the AR platform is gaining big ground in the hunting world, so why not take adavantage of a short, lightweight package that is easily manuvered in thick brush where you're mostly dealing with short range engagement. Also seems like it would be very well suited for fast target aquistion when jumping deer out the brush at close range.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 1:16 PM
If your pistol is registered then I would think if a warden had an issue he could radio in and have it checked in the system. If it comes back showing it's registered then that really should be the end of the issue I would think.

And I dont blame you for wanting something that is good for close range and easy to move with thru thick brush.

For those worried about follow-up shots.....if you've ever taken a carbine course where they teach the "controlled pair"....well to me there is your answer. At 50yrd (or more with some prectice) you should be able to put a controlled pair on that deer before he barely fliches from the first hit, and prolly drop him where he stands.

Fact is the AR platform is gaining big ground in the hunting world, so why not take adavantage of a short, lightweight package that is easily manuvered in thick brush where you're mostly dealing with short range engagement. Also seems like it would be very well suited for fast target aquistion when jumping deer out the brush at close range.


I love all this expert deer killing analysis your assumptions are that all deer stand broadside waiting for you to shoot them

thukidad
10-27-2011, 1:43 PM
tenpercentfirearms: I don't believe anyone is telling me I can't. They're just advising me of other options.

Untamed1972: I agree with your comment.

taperxz: This year alone, my hunting party tagged 6 deers. 4 of those deer was taken within 30 yards. 1 was taken within 50 yards. 1 was taken approximately 150 yards. The one taken at 150 yards was at a different location, and that area would differently called for a long rifle. All of them was standing broadside. Not trying to sound smart, but it just what happened this year?? All but one was taken at dawn.

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 1:51 PM
I love all this expert deer killing analysis your assumptions are that all deer stand broadside waiting for you to shoot them

What I dont get from those giving the flack here is this:

Is it the gun the kills the deer or the projectile fired from the gun?

If there is agreement that the 6.8 round is sufficient for taking deer (if not then the caliber debate should have it's own thread), especially at close range, then why does it matter what it's fired from? Why would the same round fired from a shouldered rifle at 50yds, even for a non-broad-side/less desireable shot, be any more lethal than the same round fired from what is essentially the same gun minus the shoulder stock?

To me the only 2 issues are:
1) Is the caliber sufficient for a quick, clean, humane kill?
and
2) Can the person squeezing the trigger repeatably put accurate rounds on target?

Other then that......why should anything else matter?

The only thing that makes the AR pistol a pistol is a minor cosmetic alteration and a legal defintion. For all intents and purposes....it IS a rifle.

So I guess I just don't see why all the flack? It doesn't make sense to me, in technical terms.

I mean crap.....if it's perfectly acceptable to take deer at 30yds with a bow (several thousand year old technology) then why not with a sufficient caliber AR pistol at the same range?

I'm sure if the OP could legally aquire and SRB, he would. But that's not an option for us PRK prisoners now is it?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 2:06 PM
Untamed1972: Though I agree with you. I wouldn't call it "flak", as their opinion is simply that, an opinion. I accept all opinion of those willing to give them and appreciate them or whom ever willing to spend a few minute to respond. I'll be continuing corresponding with various DFG offices to find out more on the subject. Anything new that I find, I'll post it on here.

Write Winger
10-27-2011, 2:08 PM
Have every conceivable document necessary to prove legality and that you've had your question asked and answered by a warden, and remember the phrase "my gun is legally configured" and if that isn't enough, "I'd like to speak with my attorney".

taperxz
10-27-2011, 2:08 PM
What I dont get from those giving the flack here is this:

Is it the gun the kills the deer or the projectile fired from the gun?

If there is agreement that the 6.8 round is sufficient for taking deer (if not then the caliber debate should have it's own thread), especially at close range, then why does it matter what it's fired from? Why would the same round fired from a shouldered rifle at 50yds, even for a non-broad-side/less desireable shot, be any more lethal than the same round fired from what is essentially the same gun minus the shoulder stock?

To me the only 2 issues are:
1) Is the caliber sufficient for a quick, clean, humane kill?
and
2) Can the person squeezing the trigger repeatable put accurate rounds on target?

Other then that......why should anything else matter?

The only thing that makes the AR pistol a pistol is a minor cosmetic alteration and a legal defintion. For all intents and purposes....it IS a rifle.

So I guess I just don't see why all the flack? It doesn't make sense to me, in technical terms.

I mean crap.....if it's perfectly acceptable to take deer at 30yds with a bow (several thousand year old technology) then why not with a sufficient caliber AR pistol at the same range?

I'm sure if the OP could legally aquire and SRB, he would. But that's not an option for us PRK prisoners now is it?

There is a mistake! Keep in mind, an arrow actually creates a much bigger hole than a bullet. So you really are in effect comparing apples to oranges.

No one here is saying it "can't" do the job.

The OP talks about what would happen with confrontation with a warden, my points are based on that the warden would in fact question the motive of hunting with the firearm, (not the right "traditional" tool for the job) Is it in fact legal in the state, (of course it is) but it may still lead to an extended encounter with a game warden. My point is the rarity of using that particular firearm may in fact raise serious questions and simply ruin the OPs hunt.

Its really not the right tool for the job. A rifle with a sling that can be used top stabilize around the elbow, with a 30 cal bullet, and good optics are what is really required to place a fair shot on big game for whatever the deer proposes to do.

thukidad
10-27-2011, 2:14 PM
Write Wringer: I do plan on having with me at all times: My hunting license, Deer and/or Bear tag, Dros paperwork, Reciept of Purchase. I've received approval from the warden I've been corresponding with to print the letter to have with me. I'm now attempting to contact the northern office in Rancho Cordova for a response.

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 2:17 PM
Its really not the right tool for the job. A rifle with a sling that can be used top stabilize around the elbow, with a 30 cal bullet, and good optics are what is really required to place a fair shot on big game for whatever the deer proposes to do.

In most places in this country I would agree with that statement. On steep slopes, in tight canyons, in thick brush....not so much.

And it's only "not a traditional tool for the job" because not many people have tried it yet. I'm sure they said the same thing about hunting with an AR platform rifle too in the not to distant past, but now they are marketed specifically for that....in nifty woodland camo patterns even. And I'm sure the first guys who started hunting with scoped revolvers heard the same arguments too.

Nothing beats the right tool for the job.....and sometimes a long-barreled scoped rifle isn't the right tool. Heck....I bet even in the early days of optics, guys caught crap from the old-schoolers about not using irons.

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 2:21 PM
There is a mistake! Keep in mind, an arrow actually creates a much bigger hole than a bullet. So you really are in effect comparing apples to oranges.

Again....it comes down to....is the caliber sufficient......and can the shooter put rounds on target.....the rest is just preference and like you said....tradition.

As for the legal issues, as long as it registered I think that will take care of alot of hassle. I think the OP is smart also to make prior contact with the offices in the areas that he will be hunting. Having names and emails would prolly also go along way to addressing any issues one might experience in the field if for no other reason then that people who are knowingly or intentionally doing something illegal aren't going to contact LE ahead of time and let them know or ask if it's ok.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 2:27 PM
In most places in this country I would agree with that statement. On steep slopes, in tight canyons, in thick brush....not so much.

And it's only "not a traditional tool for the job" because not many people have tried it yet. I'm sure they said the same thing about hunting with an AR platform rifle too in the not to distant past, but now they are marketed specifically for that....in nifty woodland camo patterns even. And I'm sure the first guys who started hunting with scoped revolvers heard the same arguments too.

Nothing beats the right tool for the job.....and sometimes a long-barreled scoped rifle isn't the right tool.

Most of what you are arguing belongs in the hunting section. Its been dragged through the mud a 100 times! Then general concensus is that the AR rifle platform is fine with the right caliber. GRANTED! Most try to do with with the 5.56/223 though which is wildly under powered for big game with all the different possible scenarios. I have never taken the same shot twice;)

AGAIN, point being, what will the warden have to say and his opinion on it creating a situation that will inconvenience and mess up the hunters hunt.
A warden, with your hunting license and tags gets to scrutinize you a little more in these situations.

Do you want to make a 1A point while trying to bag game? Fine with me but there are better tools for the job than risking the time with a warden. Best brush gun made is the Win 94. You can't say the AR pistol is good because how many people have test driven it?

thukidad
10-27-2011, 2:28 PM
Untamed1972: That's correct. The only office that has responded is the Central office in Fresno. Rancho Cordova and Redding Offices have not responded yet. I'll wait a few more days and send a follow up email if needed. If no response, I'll send a formal letter via certified mail to both offices. Well see what happens.

thukidad
10-27-2011, 2:36 PM
taperxz: I really didn't want to discuss the legality of using the firearm, caliber of choice, or choice of firearm. I understand what may become if I choose to use such a firearm. I just looking for direction in advising or informing the game warden in the event he/she choose to go on a fishing expedition and hold me for hours while trying to find something.

P.S. I've used the Win 94 30-30, 3 times this year. I don't like lever action as it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands. I would much prefer taking my X-Bolt over the lever action. Personal perference. Also, an AR pistol isn't test-proven because I find that not many people are doing it. I believe if my hunt are successful this upcoming year. I'll post picture of the firearm and game. Maybe that may encourage others to do it as well. You never know??

taperxz
10-27-2011, 2:42 PM
taperxz: I really didn't want to discuss the legality of using the firearm, caliber of choice, or choice of firearm. I understand what may become if I choose to use such a firearm. I just looking for direction in advising or informing the game warden in the event he/she choose to go on a fishing expedition and hold me for hours while trying to find something.

P.S. I've used the Win 94 30-30, 3 times this year. I don't like lever action as it doesn't feel comfortable in my hands. I would much prefer taking my X-Bolt over the lever action. Personal perference.

I understand that! You asked about confrontation with a warden, my thoughts were documented above. They will look at you funny, question your motive, probably detain you longer than you would like, Because of the non-traditional aspect of it. Are you legal? ABSOLUTELY! You'll just have to deal with the BS from a "not knowing" GW. In time they will learn. I have killed LOTS of deer and would never feel comfortable with what you are proposing and thus wouldn't risk the complications for an inferior hunting tool. JMO

thukidad
10-27-2011, 2:50 PM
taperxz: I understand. Thank you for taking the time (since this morning) in beating this horse. I respect your opinion in regard to the firearm, as it is very unconventional. I'll just have to make sure my ducks are in line prior to heading out. Practice, practice, and afterward more practice to ensure I'm hunting at my highest level to ensure a safe and humane kill.

Untamed1972
10-27-2011, 2:57 PM
You can't say the AR pistol is good because how many people have test driven it?

But how will anyone know if no one ever tries it?

Again.....the AR pistol is just an AR rifle w/o the stock......the AR rifle is more than tested and proven to be reliable in the field. After that it just comes down to the skills of the shooter.

taperxz
10-27-2011, 3:07 PM
But how will anyone know if no one ever tries it?

Again.....the AR pistol is just an AR rifle w/o the stock......the AR rifle is more than tested and proven to be reliable in the field. After that it just comes down to the skills of the shooter.

Correct and without the stock the shooter is at a disadvantage of a clean shot and at the expense of the animal. Thats why hunter prefer a stock on their rifle. It is an advantage in accuracy over not having a stock.

tozan
10-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Tozan: That thing is awesome. who makes that?

It is a Pachmeyer Dominator, they were made for a few years in the 80's pretty hard to find one.

Sniper3142
10-30-2011, 2:23 PM
To the OP...

I like your choice in caliber. 6.8 SPC II is a Great hunting round.

However I'm not sure I'd ever use an AR pistol in any caliber to hunt with. The lack of a stock makes it a poor choice for accurate shot placement.

I'd recommend an AR15 rifle in 6.8 SPC II. While a 16 inch barrel isn't as short as you might like, it would do fine in this situation.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 9:14 AM
To the OP...

I like your choice in caliber. 6.8 SPC II is a Great hunting round.

However I'm not sure I'd ever use an AR pistol in any caliber to hunt with. The lack of a stock makes it a poor choice for accurate shot placement.
I'd recommend an AR15 rifle in 6.8 SPC II. While a 16 inch barrel isn't as short as you might like, it would do fine in this situation.

Does that comment to hunting with any kind of pistol....or just an AR pistol?

Sniper3142
10-31-2011, 9:45 AM
Does that comment to hunting with any kind of pistol....or just an AR pistol?

Its aimed at mainly AR15 pistols since they are a bit on the weird side since an AR15 was meant to be fired with a stock but most AR15 pistols are used without one. It can be a rather unstable platform.

Tucking an AR15 pistol into your shoulder and firing it like a rifle can be done. The only question is how well it and the shooter will perform in that configuration.

franklinarmory
10-31-2011, 10:18 AM
Correct and without the stock the shooter is at a disadvantage of a clean shot and at the expense of the animal. Thats why hunter prefer a stock on their rifle. It is an advantage in accuracy over not having a stock.

Not really. I can keep all of my shots in the vital zone of a buck at 100 yards with just an EO Tech. This is about what I can do with an iron sight 30-30. So it is not an accuracy advantage either way. On the other hand, an 11.5" barrel is a lot easier to hit the trail with rather than a 16 or 20" carbine. I wouldn't want to press either firearm into a 500 yard shooting situation, but this is why we have a safe full of guns, right? :)

If you were to actually try out an AR pistol in a hunting caliber and use the right technique, you will find that it works much better than you could possibly imagine, and it carries conveniently through the woods. BTW, do not "tuck this into your shoulder." Use a cheek weld. That's what the neoprene cover is for!

Until you do, you do not know what you do not know.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 10:28 AM
Its aimed at mainly AR15 pistols since they are a bit on the weird side since an AR15 was meant to be fired with a stock but most AR15 pistols are used without one. It can be a rather unstable platform.

Tucking an AR15 pistol into your shoulder and firing it like a rifle can be done. The only question is how well it and the shooter will perform in that configuration.


Just seems like kind of a biased opinion in my view. If your comments were aimed at pistols in general it would make more sense.

Handguns are inherently less accurate at distance than a rifle because of less stability in being held only with the hands and the shorter barrel. So wouldn't a "pistol" that has a longer barrel, say 10-12 inches and has the ability to be stabalized via cheek welding the buffer tube make in MORE stable than the avg. handgun used for hunting?

Just seems silly from a technical perspective to say hunting with pitols is A-Ok...except AR-pistols. Seems like an AR pistol in a suitable hunting caliber would be the superior choice when it comes to hunting with a handgun.

taperxz
10-31-2011, 12:42 PM
Not really. I can keep all of my shots in the vital zone of a buck at 100 yards with just an EO Tech. This is about what I can do with an iron sight 30-30. So it is not an accuracy advantage either way. On the other hand, an 11.5" barrel is a lot easier to hit the trail with rather than a 16 or 20" carbine. I wouldn't want to press either firearm into a 500 yard shooting situation, but this is why we have a safe full of guns, right? :)

If you were to actually try out an AR pistol in a hunting caliber and use the right technique, you will find that it works much better than you could possibly imagine, and it carries conveniently through the woods. BTW, do not "tuck this into your shoulder." Use a cheek weld. That's what the neoprene cover is for!

Until you do, you do not know what you do not know.

Almost anyone can hit a 100 yard target, If you are able to get that close to a deer while beating brush and making all kinds of noise, do you really think the buck is going to stand broadside waiting for you to shoot? Its just not as easy as people think and when hunting every situation is different. Minus the stock still puts you at a disadvantage IMHO. Because of that the animal is also at risk of a wound that will contribute to a slow, long death.

FWIW it really is a hunting ethics thing with me. There really are enough anti hunters out there and using firearms that are not designed for hunting and potentially wounding more animals surely doesn't help our cause.

I am sure there are several people out there that could handle it. My problem with it is all the newb hunters that will want to try it and not be efficient with it.

franklinarmory
10-31-2011, 1:18 PM
Almost anyone can hit a 100 yard target, If you are able to get that close to a deer while beating brush and making all kinds of noise, do you really think the buck is going to stand broadside waiting for you to shoot? Its just not as easy as people think and when hunting every situation is different. Minus the stock still puts you at a disadvantage IMHO. Because of that the animal is also at risk of a wound that will contribute to a slow, long death.

FWIW it really is a hunting ethics thing with me. There really are enough anti hunters out there and using firearms that are not designed for hunting and potentially wounding more animals surely doesn't help our cause.

I am sure there are several people out there that could handle it. My problem with it is all the newb hunters that will want to try it and not be efficient with it.
Really??? :confused: Does that imply there are not any newb rifle hunters?

I often sneak to within 25 yards of my quarry. To me, that is more enjoyable and sporting. However, there are some open country situations where a long shot is the only option. In that case, I run a 25 WSSM rifle when I likely have to shoot 200 yards or more.

The problem here is that it seems unfathomable for you to understand that an AR pistol in a good caliber with a good barrel can be quite the deer slayer. Your traditionalist opinion is missing the real world experience. You would be very surprised on how easy it is to acquire targets with this shooting platform. Seriously, I encourage you to try it out!

What part of the state do you live in? PM me and I can refer you to a range where you can try one out.

taperxz
10-31-2011, 1:29 PM
Really??? :confused: Does that imply there are not any newb rifle hunters?

I often sneak to within 25 yards of my quarry. To me, that is more enjoyable and sporting. However, there are some open country situations where a long shot is the only option. In that case, I run a 25 WSSM rifle when I likely have to shoot 200 yards or more.

The problem here is that it seems unfathomable for you to understand that an AR pistol in a good caliber with a good barrel can be quite the deer slayer. Your traditionalist opinion is missing the real world experience. You would be very surprised on how easy it is to acquire targets with this shooting platform. Seriously, I encourage you to try it out!

What part of the state do you live in? PM me and I can refer you to a range where you can try one out.

I think you may misunderstand my concerns. A newb hunter is going to have all kinds of stuff going on in their heads when getting ready to squeeze the trigger on a deer. Commonly known as "buck fever". This is where the right tool for the job is important for "most" hunters.

I am not saying that the platform you or the OP are referring to will not work. What i am saying is that for "most" hunting situations its not ideal. I have shot deer with a 7mm mag, (lung shot) and have seen them run hundreds or yards before going down. A gut shot deer can go so far you may never see it again until the buzzards are on it the next day.

You can vouch for this platform all day if you want, its still not the ideal tool for the job at hand so we can just agree to disagree at this point.

Appreciate the offer BTW to shoot one! Very cool! My range is in my back yard and FWIW, Maybe some day i will try it out.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 1:34 PM
Almost anyone can hit a 100 yard target, If you are able to get that close to a deer while beating brush and making all kinds of noise, do you really think the buck is going to stand broadside waiting for you to shoot? Its just not as easy as people think and when hunting every situation is different. Minus the stock still puts you at a disadvantage IMHO. Because of that the animal is also at risk of a wound that will contribute to a slow, long death.

FWIW it really is a hunting ethics thing with me. There really are enough anti hunters out there and using firearms that are not designed for hunting and potentially wounding more animals surely doesn't help our cause.

I am sure there are several people out there that could handle it. My problem with it is all the newb hunters that will want to try it and not be efficient with it.

What I dont get is how some just cant seem to grasp that in some places in Ca where folks have to hunt the ability to see anything 100yds or more away is almost nil. You are far more likely to flush it out of the brush at 30yds or less.....a situation in which is a full length, scoped bolt action rifle will more likely work against you than for you.

I was out last Friday morning and flushed one out of the brush....was 15yds from me at the most. Too much brush in the way even at that distance to get a clear view on it though. But when the majority of terrain you have available is dense, head+ high brush.....it's most likely gonna be a close quarters deal when you actually get to take a shot.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 1:37 PM
I am not saying that the platform you or the OP are referring to will not work. What i am saying is that for "most" hunting situations its not ideal. I have shot deer with a 7mm mag, (lung shot) and have seen them run hundreds or yards before going down. A gut shot deer can go so far you may never see it again until the buzzards are on it the next day.

I think if you look at what the OP is talking about though he is not talking about "most situations"......he is talking about a very specific set of circumstances for which a more specific tool would be effective. You're trying to generalize something which someone is trying to be specfic about.

Not to mention if most Archery hunting is done within 40yds or less......then obviously IS possible for hunters to get closer than 100yds to a deer. So a round that would be effective at 100yds will obviously be more than effective at 50yds or less. So again.....it really just comes down to, can the shooter accurately put rounds on target and that goes for any gun being used.

taperxz
10-31-2011, 1:44 PM
I think if you look at what the OP is talking about though he is not talking about "most situations"......he is talking about a very specific set of circumstances for which a more specific tool would be effective. You're trying to generalize something which someone is trying to be specfic about.

Well, i'll tell ya what, I have harvested 48 bucks in my life and have been pretty much in every situation you can think of. Not one time can i think back at a situation and AR pistol would be beneficial. The OP's set of specific circumstances just never happen the way anyone can claim. Deer don't just sit in a specific spot in this state and wait to get shot.

With that said, some states employee the use of tree stands, bait, natural bait like standing corn ect. That would perhaps be a place where this could be used.

taperxz
10-31-2011, 1:45 PM
What I dont get is how some just cant seem to grasp that in some places in Ca where folks have to hunt the ability to see anything 100yds or more away is almost nil. You are far more likely to flush it out of the brush at 30yds or less.....a situation in which is a full length, scoped bolt action rifle will more likely work against you than for you.

I was out last Friday morning and flushed one out of the brush....was 15yds from me at the most. Too much brush in the way even at that distance to get a clear view on it though. But when the majority of terrain you have available is dense, head+ high brush.....it's most likely gonna be a close quarters deal when you actually get to take a shot.

Google Lake county terrain.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 1:50 PM
Well, i'll tell ya what, I have harvested 48 bucks in my life and have been pretty much in every situation you can think of. Not one time can i think back at a situation and AR pistol would be beneficial. The OP's set of specific circumstances just never happen the way anyone can claim. Deer don't just sit in a specific spot in this state and wait to get shot.
With that said, some states employee the use of tree stands, bait, natural bait like standing corn ect. That would perhaps be a place where this could be used.

I'm not following you there. So the longer, heavier rifle is better suited for close quarters, fast target aquisition on a moving target? I'm not understanding how it is the deer must be standing still to be shot with an AR pistol but not with other accepted methods like a bow or traditional hunting rifle?

Again....how is shooting a deer at 30yds with a bow any different than shooting the same deer at 30yds with an rifle caliber AR pistol or at 30yrds with a more traditional hunting rifle?

taperxz
10-31-2011, 1:59 PM
I'm not following you there. So the longer, heavier rifle is better suited for close quarters, fast target aquisition on a moving target? I'm not understanding how it is the deer must be standing still to be shot with an AR pistol but not with other accepted methods like a bow or traditional hunting rifle?

Again....how is shooting a deer at 30yds with a bow any different than shooting the same deer at 30yds with an rifle caliber AR pistol or at 30yrds with a more traditional hunting rifle?

In your description, you were busting brush. A job a dog should be doing while you are up on a perch and able to shoot the buck. You got on one and couldn't even get a shot off. What were you doing there? An AR pistol would have been of no help to you! A mag round maybe to shoot through the brush. Personally i would never want to shoot a semi auto for deer beating brush. Respectfully, you can call it any way you want it, i just disagree with the idea and would never suggest it to anyone. What do i know? I got to go defrost some back straps.

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 2:27 PM
In your description, you were busting brush. A job a dog should be doing while you are up on a perch and able to shoot the buck. You got on one and couldn't even get a shot off. What were you doing there? An AR pistol would have been of no help to you! A mag round maybe to shoot through the brush. Personally i would never want to shoot a semi auto for deer beating brush. Respectfully, you can call it any way you want it, i just disagree with the idea and would never suggest it to anyone. What do i know? I got to go defrost some back straps.

You're assuming there is a perch available to get up on in the first place, and that even if you could get above the brush, you'd be able see anything moving around in the brush from above.

And lets just say your scenario existed in the places I've been scouting and hunting this year......even perched from above you'd still be talking about a short range shot on a moving target.

I'm not doubting your experience, you obviously have plenty. Although you haven't stated what areas your experiences have been in. Hunting techniques vary widely all over the country based on terrain, vegetation etc. What works in one place can't always be applied to other places. Alot of SoCal terrain presents some pretty challenging circumstances to hunt in, especially the public lands. If you look at a map of the Cleveland National Forest....all the little pvt. inholdings you see are the nice open, flat/rolling meadowy areas and everything that surrounds it that is public land is steep with alot of dense brush. Prolly the reason that statistically a little more than half the deer in this area taken every year are taken on pvt. land.

You said deer dont stand still to get shot in this state. I agree with you on that. What I'm failing to grasp in your statements is how the tradtional, scoped hunting rifle is the superior choice for short range, moving target engagement?

Let's generalize a little more.....what IS the ideal choice for close range, moving target engagement? What if the AR pistol was a registered SBR instead....bascially the same as the proposed pistol but with a stock? Would that make a difference?

taperxz
10-31-2011, 2:37 PM
You're assuming there is a perch available to get up on in the first place, and that even if you could get above the brush, you'd be able see anything moving around in the brush from above.

And lets just say your scenario existed in the places I've been scouting and hunting this year......even perched from above you'd still be talking about a short range shot on a moving target.

I'm not doubting your experience, you obviously have plenty. Although you haven't stated what areas your experiences have been in. Hunting techniques vary widely all over the country based on terrain, vegetation etc. What works in one place can't always be applied to other places. Alot of SoCal terrain presents some pretty challenging circumstances to hunt in, especially the public lands. If you look at a map of the Cleveland National Forest....all the little pvt. inholdings you see are the nice open, flat/rolling meadowy areas and everything that surrounds it that is public land is steep with alot of dense brush. Prolly the reason that statistically a little more than half the deer in this area taken every year are taken on pvt. land.

You said deer dont stand still to get shot in this state. I agree with you on that. What I'm failing to grasp in your statements is how the tradtional, scoped hunting rifle is the superior choice for short range, moving target engagement?

Let's generalize a little more.....what IS the ideal choice for close range, moving target engagement? What if the AR pistol was a registered SBR instead....bascially the same as the proposed pistol but with a stock? Would that make a difference?

There is no ideal circumstance in reality. Every single situation presents different obstacles. Since this IS the case 99 times out of 100, it would be better to have a rifle with stock to be able to cover all of your bases while in the field. The terrain i hunt has everything! Brush, open grass/oaks, groves of pine, steep draws ect. YOU NAME IT! Since this is the case in most of CA where deer hunting occurs, it is best to be ready for any and all encounters to be successful in the field. OH and who said anything about having to use a a scope?

Untamed1972
10-31-2011, 3:11 PM
There is no ideal circumstance in reality. Every single situation presents different obstacles. Since this IS the case 99 times out of 100, it would be better to have a rifle with stock to be able to cover all of your bases while in the field. The terrain i hunt has everything! Brush, open grass/oaks, groves of pine, steep draws ect. YOU NAME IT! Since this is the case in most of CA where deer hunting occurs, it is best to be ready for any and all encounters to be successful in the field. OH and who said anything about having to use a a scope?

I totally agree with the variance in habitat. It's possible to get a little of everything in some areas and it is nice to try and cover as many bases as possible. But sometimes you just can't and one has to pick the greater statistical likelihoods and focus more on those. So if someone's experience, especially if they regularly hunt the same area, says "I will almost never have a shot any anything more than 50yrds away" I can't fault them for wanting to tailor their gear towards what their experience tells them they will most likely encounter.

As for scopes....that was just my generalizing of the various traditional methods. And for some of us......depending on quality of vision, taking a shot past 100yds with just irons could present it's own difficulties.

Sniper3142
10-31-2011, 6:52 PM
To be clear, I think a properly configured AR15 (11 - 18 inch barrel, chambered in 6.8 SPC II or 6.5 Grendel) is one of the best hunting platforms currently available. I think it would offer excellent range, hitting power, and maneuverability. I just hadn't really thought about an AR15 pistol in this role but I'm open to new possibilities.

And I've been lusting after an AR15 pistol (a hunger soon to hopefully be appeased) for a while now. ;)

thukidad
11-01-2011, 10:51 AM
Sniper3142: I've hunted this year with a AR15 with 16" barrel in 6.8SPC II caliber. The firearm was pretty good on the muscle after a days work. Thats what triggered the 6.8 SPC in AR pistol platform. Though I have rifle for other type of hunting scenario, I will mostly likely be hunting in the mentioned area with an AR pistol in 6.8SPC caliber next year. The length will more than likely be 10.5", and if that does fit the bill maybe I'll try 12.5". Would really like to opt for 11.5", but I've been having a hard time locating one that chambers 6.8SPC.

gun toting monkeyboy
11-01-2011, 11:36 AM
Sniper3142: I've hunted this year with a AR15 with 16" barrel in 6.8SPC II caliber. The firearm was pretty good on the muscle after a days work. Thats what triggered the 6.8 SPC in AR pistol platform. Though I have rifle for other type of hunting scenario, I will mostly likely be hunting in the mentioned area with an AR pistol in 6.8SPC caliber next year. The length will more than likely be 10.5", and if that does fit the bill maybe I'll try 12.5". Would really like to opt for 11.5", but I've been having a hard time locating one that chambers 6.8SPC.

Why don't you just give AR15 Performance a call? They make some very good 6.8 barrels, and can probably help you out with both determining which gas system to use on the pistol, and hook you up with a barrel/bolt combo.

-Mb