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View Full Version : kimber or springfield 1911?


boogak
02-13-2007, 8:59 PM
i am going to purchase a 1911 in the near future, i either want the springfield loaded stainless or the kimber custom ii stainless
what do you think?

titan
02-13-2007, 9:09 PM
I have both, tough call!! Pick the one that feels best to you either way you win as they are both very nice!

boogak
02-13-2007, 9:12 PM
I have both, tough call!! Pick the one that feels best to you either way you win as they are both very nice!
i know, i am having a tough time deciding

pklin1297
02-13-2007, 9:23 PM
I've had both as well... Bought the Kimber Stainless (Series I) when they first came out and bought the Springfield a few years later. Back when they first came out, the Kimbers were finished quite nicely and the pistol had a "solid" feel to it. My Springfield felt light in my hand and while some consider that a good thing, I preferred a heavier pistol. Both are tight pistols and will provide a good platform for a custom pistol if you are ever inclined to pursue that.

If you had asked me this question two years ago I would've recommended the Kimber without a second thought. But after I handled the Kimbers against the Springfields presented at SHOT show 2006, I would have to give Springfield my vote now.

45user
02-13-2007, 9:31 PM
I have SA loaded and Kimber TLE RL/II. They have different feels to their grip and overall feel. You may want to try them out if you can before you decide. The trigger on the Kimber was better than SA. But both of mine had many trouble free rounds through them. I'd say Kimber is more accurate in my specimens.
Safe shooting,
45

SnWnMe
02-13-2007, 9:57 PM
My Kimber Custom Tgt II 10mm has many problems. The Kimber room in the 1911 Forum greets you with a long stickied thread dedicated to nothing but solving Kimber problems. Tells you something about the brand these days.

califcowboy
02-13-2007, 9:58 PM
The Kimbers I have had were a little more accurate than the three Springfield Loaded models I had. I definitely prefer the Series I Kimbers over the newer ones though.

EricCartmann
02-13-2007, 9:59 PM
1911's are way overated. But yes you will need one because everyone needs a 1911.

Coastey
02-13-2007, 10:28 PM
I've had both Kimbers and Springfields and prefer the Kimber Series I over the Springfields. My Series I Kimber was one of the most accurate 1911s I had. But, I prefer the Springfields over the Kimber Series II.

Knauga
02-13-2007, 10:29 PM
I say Springfield all the way. Assembly line guns sometimes have issues out of the box, SA has an awesome warranty and will pay the shipping without quibbling.

That being said, what's wrong with one of each? ;)

Ratters
02-13-2007, 11:38 PM
I think the Kimber frame feels better in the hand, which is why I have four of them, but Springfields come with two magazines and with Kimber's recent price increase I'd give a long hard look at a Springfield.

But if you want to get a Kimber, get in on leelaw's Kimber Group Buy in the for sale forum TONITE! Can't really get a better deal.

FatKatMatt
02-13-2007, 11:45 PM
Personally, I think Kimber's are prettier but I hear they use barrels imported from Asia; I dunno if you care about that but I thought it would be worthy of note. I also handled a 1911 G.I. model by Springfield, it felt like a very solid, reliable sidearm.

I say shoot both and then decide, but I can wager you'll be happy with either one.

A324
02-14-2007, 2:29 AM
Personally, I think Kimber's are prettier but I hear they use barrels imported from Asia; I dunno if you care about that but I thought it would be worthy of note. .

Asia? Hmm... never heard that before but I am getting hungry for some chinese takeout.

1911 Pimp
02-14-2007, 4:38 AM
I prefer Springfields myself. They have a great warranty.

colossians323
02-14-2007, 5:12 AM
I say yes!
You cannot have too many 1911's.

blackrifle
02-14-2007, 9:57 AM
1911's are way overated. But yes you will need one because everyone needs a 1911.

Ok, I'm going to feed the troll :D...why are 1911's "way overated" (btw, it's "overrated")

Back on point, personally, I wouldn't buy either Kimber or Springfield. I'd buy a Colt and build it up (or just get a XSE if you don't mind forward serrations)

madjack956
02-14-2007, 10:21 AM
Personally, I think Kimber's are prettier but I hear they use barrels imported from Asia; I dunno if you care about that but I thought it would be worthy of note. I also handled a 1911 G.I. model by Springfield, it felt like a very solid, reliable sidearm.

I say shoot both and then decide, but I can wager you'll be happy with either one.

That is a worthy note. That means Asia makes one heck of an accurate barrel for 1911's. What Asian country did they tell you makes them?

SnWnMe
02-14-2007, 11:29 AM
We use Asian made computers to run our lives and money everyday. I suppose we can trust their barrels too right?

Aluisious
02-14-2007, 11:39 AM
My Kimber is accurate and reliable (as long as I clean it well). Gone about 300 rounds since the last time my mag popped the last round out the top of the chamber, which wasn't a stoppage problem anyway. About 1k rounds since the last time it jammed (in the first 500 rounds) and that was when I was using some old junky mags.

The finish on my TLE is holding up well. My only complaint is that a very small piece of my slide chipped off, right next to the hammer. Overall I love that pistol and have no desire for anything else.

Is Springfield better? I don't know, it could be, but you certainly wouldn't be dissatisfied with my Kimber.

madjack956
02-14-2007, 11:54 AM
Ok, I'm going to feed the troll :D...why are 1911's "way overated" (btw, it's "overrated")

Back on point, personally, I wouldn't buy either Kimber or Springfield. I'd buy a Colt and build it up (or just get a XSE if you don't mind forward serrations)

I am curious to hear the answer to that question myself..:confused:

ZenMastaT
02-14-2007, 12:36 PM
I just purchased my first 1911 not more than a week ago. I ended up going with the Springfield Armory Loaded model (here is a picture: http://www.guns-for-hire.com/tfrpics/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=457&g2_serialNumber=2 )

I went this way because I'm experienced with SA pistols and knew I would be satisfied, which I am. I don't have the corresponding experience to say anything about Kimber but I can pretty much guarantee that Springfield Armory will give you a satisfying product.

blackrifle
02-14-2007, 1:36 PM
Springfield's "loaded" 1911's used to be really nice. Recently, however, it seems that their quality/value has dropped off quite a bit. Their finish is much rougher than before, the 1911's are generally sloppier and they're starting to use cheaper parts (no-name knock off Novak's for example). Their higher end models are still the same. Compared to recent Colt XSE model, the Springfields aren't as great of a deal as they used to be. I would take a closer look at various models in the price range before you commit.

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 1:51 PM
Ok, I'm going to feed the troll :D...why are 1911's "way overated" (btw, it's "overrated")

Back on point, personally, I wouldn't buy either Kimber or Springfield. I'd buy a Colt and build it up (or just get a XSE if you don't mind forward serrations)


I am not a troll on Tuesdays and I don't eat much so I don't need feeding.

Thank you for the grammmer correction. Could you corrrect everrything I mis-spelled in thhis post too?

1911's are way overated because:
- they hold only 8 rounds, XD's hold 14 rounds, USP's hold 13 rounds. Both are fine guns and are cheaper.
- lots of parts, higher likelyhood for failure
- Sigs are only $700 and have been proven shoot just as straight after 10,000 round then it did when it was new. If you want to spend money on a low cap 45, get the Sig P220! It will probably outlast the 1911 3 times over.
- A $400 1911 is not a very good gun. A $400 Glock is a very good gun.

I think guys are in love with 1911's because of the history aspect of it. These are probably the same type of guys that wished the Cav would have kept horses instead of tanks.

I see no point in spending $3k for a 1911 when I can get a HS-50 BMG for that price, or a LRB M14, or a Colt M4 6920 fully tac'd out with surefire, rails, and ACOG.

Don't think I hate 1911's, I actually love them along with other ancient weapons such as Garands, and M1903's, but I buy these guns solely for the historical aspect of it, and because I love guns. I just spent $1500 for a 1911 TRP Operator. I love this gun, and it is fun to fondle and shoot, but I have just as much fun shooting my XD45 or Sig P220.

I also think Spears and Battle Ax's are overated too. But I guess we can start another thread for that.


My TRP
http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/images/threads/000/190/900/2931962-trp1.jpg

blackrifle
02-14-2007, 3:31 PM
Thank you for the grammmer correction. Could you corrrect everrything I mis-spelled in thhis post too?
Nah, the first one is free....for the rest, you have to pay.

- they hold only 8 rounds, XD's hold 14 rounds, USP's hold 13 rounds. Both are fine guns and are cheaper.
Both are fine guns but neither is "cheaper". The USP is considerably more than a basic 1911. The XD is too (not by much). Compared to "hot rodded" 1911's, sure, they're cheaper but your comment is a bit of blanket statement. The Taurus PT1911's are in the $500-$600 range (this is their "loaded" model). I think you're trying a bit to hard to compare a XD to a Ed Brown or Wilson Combat. Sorry, but there is a WORLD of difference there in terms of workmanship. That's like comparing a Ford Mustang to a Bentley Coupe. Sure, they both have four wheels, they both go forward and reverse but outside of that, there isn't much comparison.

Also, while the XD and USP both hold more rounds, their grips aren't as comfortable for certain people. I came to the 1911 by the way of elimination. I owned every gun you mentioned and then some. I tried to use every single one, in training, and guess what? NONE of them worked as well for me as the 1911. Don't forget, there are high capacity 1911's too...14 rounders, etc...but again, those don't work for me.

- lots of parts, higher likelyhood for failure
Lots of parts? Really? Ever take apart a glock to every pin, spring, part? There are plenty of parts that can break on every pistol.

- Sigs are only $700 and have been proven shoot just as straight after 10,000 round then it did when it was new. If you want to spend money on a low cap 45, get the Sig P220! It will probably outlast the 1911 3 times over.
You know this for sure? 3x over huh? And there are 1911's that have never been proven shooters? And you can't buy a 1911 for $400? Hmmm....which SIG 22X sells for $700 NIB currently?

- A $400 1911 is not a very good gun. A $400 Glock is a very good gun.
What NIB Glock is $400 bud? There are $400 NIB 1911's though. Either way, both shoot and function fine. I think you're buying into the myth and a 1911, out-of-the-box, isn't reliable. That is just not the case. There are plenty of people who own/shoot Armscor 1911's (consider "bottom of the barrel") that work 100%.

I think guys are in love with 1911's because of the history aspect of it. These are probably the same type of guys that wished the Cav would have kept horses instead of tanks.
Again, another blanket statement. First off, you don't know the first thing about me and probably most of the other people on this forum. My decision to go with 1911's has NOTHING to do with history. I tried nearly every .40 S&W and .45 ACP on the market and the 1911 was the winner DESPITE my reluctance ...I start my serious pistol shooting with Glocks and USP's, I wasn't a 1911 fan until recently. The bottom line is that I just plain shoot better with the 1911 and the 1911's ergonomics work for me.

I see no point in spending $3k for a 1911 when I can get a HS-50 BMG for that price, or a LRB M14, or a Colt M4 6920 fully tac'd out with surefire, rails, and ACOG.
Again, you are comparing a box-stock heavily discounted XD to a full house customized 1911.

And personally, I think the BEST pistol on the market in terms of pure "tool" use, is the Steyr M40-A1. Steyr quality, low recoil, excellent overall design and cheaper than Glock, XD, SIG, etc...just not well known enough but if you ever get a chance to shoot one, try it out. I think I've "sold" a dozen M40's by just letting people shoot mine when I'm at the range.

On a parting note, if 1911s suck so bad, I wonder why LAPD SWAT standardized on them? Those dipsh*ts probably don't know anything...they're probably all just sitting around talking about the good ol' days of the 1911's instead of doing stuff like saving lives and killing the bad guys...:rolleyes:

donger
02-14-2007, 3:36 PM
I am not a troll on Tuesdays and I don't eat much so I don't need feeding.

Thank you for the grammmer correction. Could you corrrect everrything I mis-spelled in thhis post too?

1911's are way overated because:
- they hold only 8 rounds, XD's hold 14 rounds, USP's hold 13 rounds. Both are fine guns and are cheaper.
- lots of parts, higher likelyhood for failure
- Sigs are only $700 and have been proven shoot just as straight after 10,000 round then it did when it was new. If you want to spend money on a low cap 45, get the Sig P220! It will probably outlast the 1911 3 times over.
- A $400 1911 is not a very good gun. A $400 Glock is a very good gun.

I think guys are in love with 1911's because of the history aspect of it. These are probably the same type of guys that wished the Cav would have kept horses instead of tanks.

I see no point in spending $3k for a 1911 when I can get a HS-50 BMG for that price, or a LRB M14, or a Colt M4 6920 fully tac'd out with surefire, rails, and ACOG.

Don't think I hate 1911's, I actually love them along with other ancient weapons such as Garands, and M1903's, but I buy these guns solely for the historical aspect of it, and because I love guns. I just spent $1500 for a 1911 TRP Operator. I love this gun, and it is fun to fondle and shoot, but I have just as much fun shooting my XD45 or Sig P220.

I also think Spears and Battle Ax's are overated too. But I guess we can start another thread for that.



Yes, Eric nice gun. We've seen your TRP already. We know you have one.

But, there's a reason why the 1911 has lasted for so long. And in my opinion it's the trigger. You will not be able to replicate the trigger feel of a 1911 in a DA/SA type semiautomatic pistol.

That's why a great percentage of the high speed, low drag "Operators" use 1911's as their sidearms. For example: LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, Force Recon, etc.

I guess the reason why you can't discern the difference between an XD and a tuned 1911 is because you're not a shooter.

blackrifle
02-14-2007, 3:43 PM
LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, Force Recon, etc.

Those guys don't know JACK about shooting and they probably don't have the budget...EricCartmann, OTOH, is the AUTHORITY with unlimited funds! Recognize. :)

donger
02-14-2007, 3:47 PM
EricCartmann, OTOH, is the AUTHORITY with unlimited funds! Recognize. :)


Too much internet, not enough shooting.

xdpackin
02-14-2007, 4:07 PM
I really like the kimber... SA is cool... I had the same choice a few weeks ago and got a Dan Wesson PM7

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 4:56 PM
Last year I shot about 12,000 rounds :) I doubt there are many SWAT guys that shot 12,000 rounds last year. I have a friend that went to the Sig Academy and he told me there were veteran SWAT guys who could not shoot worth a dam.

Don't belive it? Lets say we arrange a trip there someday and find out. I am always down for more training. I plan to take some FrontSight classes when I move to Vegas just to see what they teach. I have good things about this place and willing to give them a shot.

Also I have a friend that just joined a police dept in the Phoenix area and he even told me a lot of cops can't shoot worth a dam. I myself was in the Army, was a 12B, we are basically grunts (except we carry C4), and there were a lot of guys in the Army that could not shoot.

The FBI does carry the Springfield Pro but that thing is $2500. If a cop chooses to carry one, I don't know why he would.

As for the Stehr M40A1, that is a great gun! It is only $339 at CDNN right now and it is on my short list. Hopefully CDNN does not run out of them in 2 months.

So when you say LAPD swat uses them I want to laugh because they probably don't even know how to shoot it. I think 1911's are more than capable, 45 ACP is an awesome round, and would be a great open carry gun, but I still say they are overated.

Your right about one thing, I have not gone to the range at all since I have been here.

Here some pics of me and a friend in NH about 6 months ago. Some of the pics I took are of my friend at Manchester Fireline. I have a membership to this place, we can rent MP5's full auto for only $30 with member pricing. I have rented many guns here such as Sigs, Steyrs, HKs, and Glocks. Along with a full auto tommy gun =)

Other pics are of me at LondonDerry Fish and Game Club with some of my guns. 1) me and my FAL 2) My Bushy M4 3) me spotting targets downrange for my friend. We are even allowed to hunt here on the premises as long as we use shotguns. Also there there is usually only one other person here so we get to do whatever the hell we want, rapid fire, laying prone or even shooting targets at point blank range. =) Sometimes we get lucky and a squirrel or chimpmunk cross our paths when we are pointing down range.

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 4:59 PM
yes i know my post above was all over the place but i was just trying to answer everything with the fewest words.

1911's are way overated. I will stick to that statement.

donger: you bring up a great point about the the trigger. but you don't think you could get comfortable with the triggers of other guns?

My Puerto Rican friend is also good with guns. Most of you probably think Puerto Ricans only know how to use knives, but some of them do know how to shoot =)

Aluisious
02-14-2007, 5:01 PM
So when you say LAPD swat uses them I want to laugh because they probably don't even know how to shoot it.
This is the most ignorant shooting-related thing anyone has written on Calguns that I can remember this year.

LAPD invented SWAT.

LAPD SWAT teams see more action in a week than you will see in your entire life.

Aluisious
02-14-2007, 5:02 PM
1911's are way overated. I will stick to that statement.

Next time you are on a SWAT team while double shifting for Delta Force and Marine spec ops, you let me know which pistol is better.

I'll trust their choice over the ePinion of some guy on an internet forum.

chickenfried
02-14-2007, 5:03 PM
If I want advice on how to get banned from internet forums I know who's counsel to seek. But I'll get my firearms expertise elsewhere.:p :p

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:09 PM
haha don't get offended so easily. if you are swat and know how to shoot then you have nothing to proove.

i may not be the best shooter and i admit i am no expert. but i did qualify expert rifle when i was in the army. that may not be much, but it is something. once i stop working so much and stop doing my other hobbies i plan to shoot more.

how much action did LA SWAT saw the past year? at least i got to go in a combat zone for 4 days and fired at any towel head that moved (actually i was there for 6 months but the ground war was only 4 days)

http://www.titantalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/vet1.JPG

http://www.titantalk.com/gallery/data/500/army1.JPG

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:14 PM
and not to get offtrack

I still think 1911's are way overated.

Aluisious
02-14-2007, 5:17 PM
Oh look, you were in Iraq the first time. Congratulations. I recall from this history books that it wasn't exactly famous for being an infantryman's war.

Maybe you should look up LAPD SWAT. "How much action did they see in a year?"

What are you, kidding?

Do you have any concept in your mind of what Los Angeles is like?

stevie
02-14-2007, 5:23 PM
I like Springfield over Kimber... My opinion....:D

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:24 PM
Oh look, you were in Iraq the first time. Congratulations. I recall from this history books that it wasn't exactly famous for being an infantryman's war.

Maybe you should look up LAPD SWAT. "How much action did they see in a year?"

What are you, kidding?

Do you have any concept in your mind of what Los Angeles is like?

I know Iraq was no Vietnam but I did do something for my country and I do love guns.

You must be a SWAT member. You tell me how much action you saw. You tell me where you get your training at? Like I said if you saw a fair amount of action good for you. What do you have to proove? My friend that went to the Sig Academy told me a lot of SWAT and Police guys there could not shoot. That is what he said. Just because they wear a police badge you think think they know how to shoot?

I know a lot of people assume every Army grunt knows how to shoot, But from my first hand experience I can you this is not the case.

I am having fun. I am looking for more people to come in and bash Eric Cartmann just because I said 1911's are overated. :D Lets continue shall we and see how many tangents we can get off of.

boogak
02-14-2007, 5:30 PM
[QUOTE=EricCartmann]yes i know my post above was all over the place but i was just trying to answer everything with the fewest words.

1911's are way overated. I will stick to that statement.

i understand their are more guns out there,maybe better then the 1911 for all i know,but i want a 1911. i wanted one since i saw my cousin's since i was 13
i just wanted peoples opinion on those two guns,thats all. thanks for all your opinions

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:36 PM
.

i understand their are more guns out there,maybe better then the 1911 for all i know,but i want a 1911. i wanted one since i saw my cousin's since i was 13
i just wanted peoples opinion on those two guns,thats all. thanks for all your opinions

1911's are great guns, they are a must have to any collection. I just said they were overated next thing you know I a troll, internet junkie, swats are shooting experts, LA SWAT invented SWAT, etc etc etc hahahahhahah I love California. And I love going off on a tangent just as much as anyone.

But back on track. Since you have your mind set on a 1911, you can't beat Springfiels lifetime warranty. that is also something to consider.

stevie
02-14-2007, 5:36 PM
I still like Springfield over Kimber.. Yes i have owned both

Larry Vickers said over the weekend. “The 1911 is a enthusiasts pistol not a service pistol” You need to know how to treat them right so they will treat you right. At least something to that affect.

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:44 PM
I still like Springfield over Kimber.. Yes i have owned both

Larry Vickers said over the weekend. “The 1911 is a enthusiasts pistol not a service pistol” You need to know how to treat them right so they will treat you right. At least something to that affect.

Larry Vickers said that? He must be a troll and he must be a internet commando. Because if he was SWAT of police he would know better :D

Check out this Police Picture :D

http://www.greenmountaintactical.com/public/WTF.jpg

madjack956
02-14-2007, 5:48 PM
I have 2 Kimbers and a Sig 1911.. They have all been excellent sidearms that I would trust with my life... I have not shot a Springfield, so I will not comment, elaborate, or BS about what I heard, or what my friend Joe Schmoe said about them....Only first hand accounts here...

Good Luck with your decision...:D

rorschach
02-14-2007, 5:48 PM
ThoseLAPD SWAT guys.... some serious operators. They got their shlit together. Only municipal SWAT team in the country with anti-terrorist capabilities. And yes they are the worlds 1st SWAT team. They had their origins in the station defense teams during the Watts Riots in 1965, and Commander (later Chief) Daryl Gates coined the term SWAT.

Those guys shoot like 4 mornings a week. When they're not patrolling or deployed, they're training.

stevie
02-14-2007, 5:49 PM
That way she does not need to turn around to shoot the bad guy behind her. :D

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 5:53 PM
ThoseLAPD SWAT guys.... some serious operators. They got their shlit together. Only municipal SWAT team in the country with anti-terrorist capabilities. And yes they are the worlds 1st SWAT team. They had their origins in the station defense teams during the Watts Riots in 1965, and Commander (later Chief) Daryl Gates coined the term SWAT.

Those guys shoot like 4 mornings a week. When they're not patrolling or deployed, they're training.

OK I am just having fun poking at SWAT and pictures of cops with backwards mags. If LA SWAT is the ****nitz then I will have to trust you guys and give them due respect (I can admit I really don't know anything about them :) )

But I doubt the 1911's they are carrying are ordinary $500 1911's. They chose the route caliber at least ... 45 ACP! yeah baby!

madjack956
02-14-2007, 5:54 PM
Larry Vickers said that? He must be a troll and he must be a internet commando. Because if he was SWAT of police he would know better :D

Check out this Police Picture :D

http://www.greenmountaintactical.com/public/WTF.jpg


Those Marble Falls Policepersons, they are always bluffing the bad guys...

She must be the pride of the force about now...

rorschach
02-14-2007, 5:57 PM
But I doubt the 1911's they are carrying are ordinary $500 1911's. They chose the route caliber at least ... 45 ACP! yeah baby!

Quite the contrary, they are standard Kimber Custom II. The only mods are night sights, frontstrap checkering and the "LAPD SWAT CUSTOM II" rollmark. A year later Kimber markets it as the TLE II.

Of course these pistols have no doubt been worked over by the SWAT Armorer by now.

sammy
02-14-2007, 6:07 PM
Boogak, I have a Kimber Stainless II .45 and love it. Great pistol out of the box. I am going to the United Sportsman range in Concord on Sunday if you want to try my Kimber. PM me if interested, Sammy:D

boogak
02-14-2007, 6:53 PM
1911's are great guns, they are a must have to any collection. I just said they were overated next thing you know I a troll, internet junkie, swats are shooting experts, LA SWAT invented SWAT, etc etc etc hahahahhahah I love California. And I love going off on a tangent just as much as anyone.

But back on track. Since you have your mind set on a 1911, you can't beat Springfiels lifetime warranty. that is also something to consider.
i understand what you mean, and thanks for your opinion,my mind is pretty much set on the springfiel now,alot op people seem to like the springfields.oh yea,when i mentioned my cousins 1911,it was a springfield.just heard alot about kimber,then my decision became tough. but i think ima go with springfield

boogak
02-14-2007, 6:59 PM
oh yeah and in the future i will pick up another, so i think i am going to have to pick up a kimber, but springfield first,thanks to all

63 tango
02-14-2007, 7:58 PM
haha don't get offended so easily. if you are swat and know how to shoot then you have nothing to proove.

i may not be the best shooter and i admit i am no expert. but i did qualify expert rifle when i was in the army. that may not be much, but it is something. once i stop working so much and stop doing my other hobbies i plan to shoot more.

how much action did LA SWAT saw the past year? at least i got to go in a combat zone for 4 days and fired at any towel head that moved (actually i was there for 6 months but the ground war was only 4 days)

http://www.titantalk.com/gallery/data/500/medium/vet1.JPG

http://www.titantalk.com/gallery/data/500/army1.JPG
not trying to berate your military service, but all infantry are 11 series. 12b isnt infantry is it? i noticed engineer brass on your uniform. were you trying to imply you were a grunt? no eib, no cib.

Aluisious
02-14-2007, 8:10 PM
not trying to berate your military service, but all infantry are 11 series. 12b isnt infantry is it? i noticed engineer brass on your uniform. were you trying to imply you were a grunt? no eib, no cib.
He does have a big chip on his shoulder, though.

Cbieling
02-14-2007, 8:15 PM
I sell alot more Kimbers then other 1911's Most off duty police I know use Kimbers.

Chris
www.lanworldinc.com

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 8:23 PM
.................................................. ........

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 8:32 PM
12B's are better than Grunts. We are Combat Engineers. We do everything grunts do like KP, clean Latrines, and dig holes, but we also get to carry C4 and blow up dirt.

Normally 12B's are split up and assigned to grunt units or armor units, just like the way a medic is assigned to certain units.

Not to knock SWAT but all they do is dress up pretty, and look pretty when they shoot. They never pulled KP or burned ***** like real soldiers to.

No chip on my shoulder here, just a proud 12B, an ex soldier, and someone that loves gun.

I always get all this stuff from 1911 gun nuts when I say 1911's are overated. Nice of you guys to get off on a tangent again. I am enjoying this =) If don't get back to you guys tonight I will tommorrow.

rorschach
02-14-2007, 10:17 PM
Not to knock SWAT but all they do is dress up pretty, and look pretty when they shoot. They never pulled KP or burned ***** like real soldiers to.

No chip on my shoulder here, just a proud 12B, an ex soldier, and someone that loves gun.

SWAT has a different mission altogether than the military. SWAT is there to save lives, not destroy the enemy, though many aspects of military training definitely apply to law enforcement. I would venture to say there are plenty of SWAT guys who pulled KP and burned crap, just not in the police department. I can tell you with certainty that LAPD SWAT and LA Sheriffs' Special Enforcement Bureau are NOT the prettyboy mail-order catalog SQUAT teams that you point out. Huntington Park PD and El Monte PD teams are more along those lines. They are geared UP for when Al-Quaida strikes the Pollo Loco and Payless. LAPD SWAT (and even more so LASO SEB) is carrying out high risk warrants, dealing with barricaded suspects and hostage situations on a near-daily basis.

You may be an ex-soldier.......

But I'm a Marine for LIFE!!! :cool:


Thanks for your service Dogface.

Oh, and for the record, I have 3 Springers, and 2 Kimbers. Hopefully soon it will be 4 Springers and 2 Kimbers. Both Kimbers needed about 300-400 rounds break in, the Springers were ready to go out of the box.

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 10:23 PM
Talking about the 54th Engineers and how much we kick *** brought back a lot of memories. Check out current pictures of my former unit in Iraq. :D

Engineers Lead the Way! Huh wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

http://www.130thengineers.army.mil/54/B%20Co/B%20Co%20pictures%201.pdf

EricCartmann
02-14-2007, 10:43 PM
SWAT has a different mission altogether than the military. SWAT is there to save lives, not destroy the enemy, though many aspects of military training definitely apply to law enforcement. I would venture to say there are plenty of SWAT guys who pulled KP and burned crap, just not in the police department. I can tell you with certainty that LAPD SWAT and LA Sheriffs' Special Enforcement Bureau are NOT the prettyboy mail-order catalog SQUAT teams that you point out. Huntington Park PD and El Monte PD teams are more along those lines. They are geared UP for when Al-Quaida strikes the Pollo Loco and Payless. LAPD SWAT (and even more so LASO SEB) is carrying out high risk warrants, dealing with barricaded suspects and hostage situations on a near-daily basis.

You may be an ex-soldier.......

But I'm a Marine for LIFE!!! :cool:


Thanks for your service Dogface.


I was not trying to belittle SWAT. I respect and admire all LEO's and what they do (Even though sometimes they have power trips). I just said they were pretty boys that look very pretty in their gear. And they do. :D

I was reading a little about LA SWAT. If they were founded in the late 60's, where were they in 1997 during the North Hollywood ordeal? If they shoot as much as you say they do, maybe they should cut back and not practice shootinging so much and practice more on grabbing their gear and running to the crime scene as fast as they could.

xrMike
02-15-2007, 10:09 AM
I was reading a little about LA SWAT. If they were founded in the late 60's, where were they in 1997 during the North Hollywood ordeal? If they shoot as much as you say they do, maybe they should cut back and not practice shootinging so much and practice more on grabbing their gear and running to the crime scene as fast as they could.Eric, I've always wondered the same thing about that North Hollywood incident -- "Where was SWAT?!?"

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 10:31 AM
Eric, I've always wondered the same thing about that North Hollywood incident -- "Where was SWAT?!?"

Maybe they were busy at the range shooting their 1911's instead of practicing mobilization drill. :)

When I was in the Army during the cold war, they use to wake us up at un-Godly hours without notice at least once a week just to see how fast we can grap our gear, check out our weapons and run ro the motor-pool. Company policy was every vehicle had to be fully loaded and ready to move out 45 minutes after the alert was given.

Man we sure went off on a lot of tangents by me just saying "1911's are way overated" Just by me saying that I found out:

- I can't spell
- I am a troll
- I don't know how to shoot
- I have a big chip on my shoulder
- 12B's are not as good as 11B's
- LA SWAT uses 1911's so they must be good.
- LA SWAT is the ultimate SWAT
- LA SWAT shoots 4 days a week

:D

All this time I never personally insulted anyone or accused anyone of anything and I still hav'nt. I think I am doing a pretty good job taking attacks from all sides :p

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 10:35 AM
I don't think the below list don't know what the hell they are doing. Why did they choose Sig P226 over the mighty 1911? They are not as good as LA SWAT.

Sig P226 Being used in Service for:
- U.S. Navy SEALs
- Japan's SWAT
- Japan Defense Force
- British SAS
- + many others that I can't think of right now

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 10:43 AM
I don't think the below list don't know what the hell they are doing. Why did they choose Sig P226 over the mighty 1911? They are not as good as LA SWAT.

Sig P226 Being used in Service for:
- U.S. Navy SEALs
- Japan's SWAT
- Japan Defense Force
- British SAS
- + many others that I can't think of right now
LAPD SWAT, army Delta Force, and Marine Spec Ops.

And the entire US military for about 70 years.

No..no...those people don't know what they're doing. The 1911 sucks, because you say so and some other people use Sigs. I mean Japan SWAT needs to take down disgruntled sushi salesmen armed with airsoft rifles, right? That calls for top of the line gear to succeed. And everyone knows how the JDF has been forged in fire in combat with...uhhh...stuff? in the last 60 years.

We can't possibly trust the judgement of the most active, only full time, and first SWAT force in the country, or the world's premier anti terrorist organization. I mean what do folks like that know about pistols...??

Oh, and I totally forgot to mention how the 1911 is used by almost every pratical competition shooter, despite the clear superiority of the Sig. They do it to handicap themselves and make it more of a challenge, I'm sure.

SEALs are not famous for their shooting ability as much as their physical endurance, btw. I've seen SEALs who couldn't hit a 55 gallon steel drum at 300 yards with an M4 with an entire magazine.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 10:49 AM
Not to knock SWAT but all they do is dress up pretty, and look pretty when they shoot. They never pulled KP or burned ***** like real soldiers to.

Everyone knows burning drums of **** is what seperates the real combat shooters from the pretenders. :rolleyes:

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 10:52 AM
I was reading a little about LA SWAT. If they were founded in the late 60's, where were they in 1997 during the North Hollywood ordeal? If they shoot as much as you say they do, maybe they should cut back and not practice shootinging so much and practice more on grabbing their gear and running to the crime scene as fast as they could.
They came in at the end and killed the remaining suspect quickly as he was trying to escape in a truck.

I'm sure your criticism that they did not know in advance that there was going to be a shooting on the extreme perifery of the city and thus be there within 3 minutes is going to keep them up at night.

Maybe if you didn't formulate your opinions on LA or the SWAT team there based on what you see Barney Fife doing in his weekend SWAT shirt in your one traffic light town, you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 10:54 AM
Everyone knows burning drums of **** is what seperates the real combat shooters from the pretenders. :rolleyes:

Being a soldier is more than shooting a weapon.

KP, latrine duty, stip clubs, red light districts, and Alerts.

Carry on soldier.

Engineers lead the way! HUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 10:55 AM
Being a soldier is more than shooting a weapon.

KP, latrine duty, stip clubs, red light districts, and Alerts.

Carry on soldier.

Engineers lead the way! HUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You were talking about 1911s, not soldiering.

Some of the very best shooters swear by the 1911, and that's good enough for me.

No amount of KP you ever did is going to convince me the Sig is better...and you said OTHER people were going on tangents...:rolleyes:

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 10:59 AM
LAPD SWAT, army Delta Force, and Marine Spec Ops.

And the entire US military for about 70 years.

No..no...those people don't know what they're doing. The 1911 sucks, because you say so and some other people use Sigs. I mean Japan SWAT needs to take down disgruntled sushi salesmen armed with airsoft rifles, right? That calls for top of the line gear to succeed. And everyone knows how the JDF has been forged in fire in combat with...uhhh...stuff? in the last 60 years.

We can't possibly trust the judgement of the most active, only full time, and first SWAT force in the country, or the world's premier anti terrorist organization. I mean what do folks like that know about pistols...??

Oh, and I totally forgot to mention how the 1911 is used by almost every pratical competition shooter, despite the clear superiority of the Sig. They do it to handicap themselves and make it more of a challenge, I'm sure.

SEALs are not famous for their shooting ability as much as their physical endurance, btw. I've seen SEALs who couldn't hit a 55 gallon steel drum at 300 yards with an M4 with an entire magazine.

Boy this is a lot of mumbo jumbo. I never said the 1911 is junk. I just said they are overated.

The 1911 is more than capable in the right hands. I made that "Sig List" not to say "Sigs are great because SEALS uses them". That list was to contradict "1911's are great becasue LA SWAT" uses them. :D

Comprendo?

rorschach
02-15-2007, 11:04 AM
I was not trying to belittle SWAT.

It sure sounds like you are to me... It's your opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth...

I was reading a little about LA SWAT. If they were founded in the late 60's, where were they in 1997 during the North Hollywood ordeal? If they shoot as much as you say they do, maybe they should cut back and not practice shootinging so much and practice more on grabbing their gear and running to the crime scene as fast as they could.

SWAT was there in 20 minutes- the time it took to drive code 3 from Downtown L.A. to the San Fernando Valley in daytime traffic. The lieutenant on scene requested SWAT be brought in on an air unit, but those guys were already enroute, and it would take too much time to drive back to Piper Tech and board a helo.

Add to that the confusion of the OIC moving the CP like 3 times and not telling SWAT where they were...

Those D-Platoon guys did alright that day.

If anyone is interested, send me a CD and I can make you a copy of the 40 minute radio radio traffic.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:06 AM
You were talking about 1911s, not soldiering.

Some of the very best shooters swear by the 1911, and that's good enough for me.

No amount of KP you ever did is going to convince me the Sig is better...and you said OTHER people were going on tangents...:rolleyes:

You are not the only one that worships a 1911. Trust me, when I say a simple statement as "1911's are overated" I get a backlash from 1911 worshippers. They come back with "LA SWAT uses them" Then I point out SEALs' uses P226, then they come back with "SEAL's are not great shooters.... "

hahahahah oh boy!

I will admit I don't know anything how good shooters SEALs or LA SWAT are. But I see where you are coming at. Your point is:

1911's are great becuase LA SWAT uses them. Sigs are not that great because SEALs uses them and SEALs don't know how to shoot.

SEALs are not famous for their shooting ability as much as their physical endurance, btw. I've seen SEALs who couldn't hit a 55 gallon steel drum at 300 yards with an M4 with an entire magazine.

Was not this during combat condition under heavy fire? As Larry Bird once said "anyone can make an open jump shot"

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:07 AM
Boy this is a lot of mumbo jumbo. I never said the 1911 is junk. I just said they are overated.

The 1911 is more than capable in the right hands. I made that "Sig List" not to say "Sigs are great because SEALS uses them". That list was to contradict "1911's are great becasue LA SWAT" uses them. :D

Comprendo?
Exactly how over rated is the 1911?

I'd say it was a better handgun for CQB in the hands of professional CQB people than any other.

If you want a gun you can abuse and maybe never use, you get a Glock. If you want a gun that comes with a nice air base in Italy, you get a Beretta. If you want an ugly mofo of a handgun that shoots a bit better than a Glock and you can afford slightly more you get a Sig.

If you want to put big bullets on target fast, and have $$ and can afford to actually practice with and maintain the pistol, you get a 1911.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:10 AM
Was not this during combat condition under heavy fire? As Larry Bird once said "anyone can make an open jump shot"
No, this was in a documentary video of SEALs training. One of them was blowing mags on nothing in particular and had to be stopped and reminded that shooting with the night aperture during the day at a target 300 yards distant was stupid.

Apparently he didn't know or bother to check. Elite :rolleyes:

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=rorschach]It sure sounds like you are to me... It's your opinion, and we all know what opinions are worth...
[quote]
how is saying the following belittling? I just said they are overated. Never did I say they were complete junk. I myself love 1911, they are pretty and make great wack off material. I think my opinion is worth just as much as yours :) both are probably absolutely worthless.
[quote=EricCartmann]
1911's are way overated. But yes you will need one because everyone needs a 1911[quote]


[QUOTE=rorschach]
SWAT was there in 20 minutes- the time it took to drive code 3 from.. blah blah blah [QUOTE]
I commend all the officers that day for doing their duty. But from an outsiders viewpoint (me), it looked like a cluster**** on the news. I too kept on saying to myself during that whole time "where the hell is SWAT"

I am sure LA SWAT got their stuff together, but they did not look so good that day. Whatever the circumstances were, they were not their fast enough.. excuses are like *** everyone has one.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:20 AM
Seriously dude, have you ever tried to drive through LA? It's not an "excuse," that's ****ing real life. Big city, big traffic, no amount of eliteness is going to make you get a truck from A to B any faster than possible.

20 minutes is pretty good, and as soon as they got there the robber was shot down.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:23 AM
Exactly how over rated is the 1911?

I'd say it was a better handgun for CQB in the hands of professional CQB people than any other.

If you want a gun you can abuse and maybe never use, you get a Glock. If you want a gun that comes with a nice air base in Italy, you get a Beretta. If you want an ugly mofo of a handgun that shoots a bit better than a Glock and you can afford slightly more you get a Sig.

If you want to put big bullets on target fast, and have $$ and can afford to actually practice with and maintain the pistol, you get a 1911.

See I can tell you are partial to 1911's. You called the Sig ugly when everyone knows they are probably the most beautiful gun the world =)

I have to admit that was a pretty good summmary except I doubt 1911's can take the abuse Sigs can. One of my bunkmate was an armorer and he was always working on 1911's. M16's believe it or not did not need that much work. Granted these 1911's were probably very old and very well used. But the M16-A2's we had we're also old and we're used a lot more than the 1911's.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:27 AM
I've never liked the Sig. It's not pretty at all, it bulges this way and that, has funny controls, and over all reminds me of a metallic walrus. At least it's better than an XD...the plastic wildebeest.

I didn't claim 1911s can take the abuse Sigs can, that's why I explicitly mentioned "maintainence" for the 1911.

I only became partial to 1911s after I'd gone through a Glock and a USP and realized how much easier it was for me to shoot well with a 1911. Plus, it has more "history" than other pistols, and I like history.

kenc9
02-15-2007, 11:27 AM
I couldn't decide which I wanted so I bought this RIA,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/kenc9/RI2.jpg

Then this,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/kenc9/SA1.jpg

Then this some Sistema's,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/kenc9/pix245821548.jpg

Then old Colts,
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y109/kenc9/pix3833453173.jpg

Most all the 1911's are fun and dependable pistols but my SA did take a while to break in.
My RIA was 350.00 and shot good from the beginning with a lifetime warranty.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:29 AM
Seriously dude, have you ever tried to drive through LA? It's not an "excuse," that's ****ing real life. Big city, big traffic, no amount of eliteness is going to make you get a truck from A to B any faster than possible.

20 minutes is pretty good, and as soon as they got there the robber was shot down.

Your point was recieved, considered, and recorded. So are you saying people don't move over for emergency vehicles in LA? Or there are no emergency lanes in LA? How did you get 20 minutes? I heard the whole incident was 44 minutes. No? I am too lazy to look up the details. I will just have to trust you when you say SWAT is better than Navy Seals :rolleyes:

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:31 AM
I've never liked the Sig. It's not pretty at all, it bulges this way and that, has funny controls, and over all reminds me of a metallic walrus. At least it's better than an XD...the plastic wildebeest.

I didn't claim 1911s can take the abuse Sigs can, that's why I explicitly mentioned "maintainence" for the 1911.

I only became partial to 1911s after I'd gone through a Glock and a USP and realized how much easier it was for me to shoot well with a 1911. Plus, it has more "history" than other pistols, and I like history.

Exactly! That is why you buy a 1911! For the history aspect of it. That is why I got a 1911. That is why I got the M1 Garand. That is why I got an M1903! The history aspect of it! Thank you.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:32 AM
Your point was recieved, considered, and recorded. So are you saying people don't move over for emergency vehicles in LA?
Yes.
Or there are no emergency lanes in LA?
What's an emergency lane?

How did you get 20 minutes? Someone else said it.

I lived in LA for three years and I'm not surprised if it takes 20 minutes or 44 minutes to get anywhere at any particular time. You try driving there, I once spent 3 hours driving 15 miles to church. I also got stuck in a traffic jam at 3 AM once.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:34 AM
Exactly! That is why you buy a 1911! For the history aspect of it. That is why I got a 1911. That is why I got the M1 Garand. That is why I got an M1903! The history aspect of it! Thank you.
If the 1911 was invented this morning, it would still shoot better than a Sig, Glock, whatever.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:40 AM
If the 1911 was invented this morning, it would still shoot better than a Sig, Glock, whatever.

I would expect a statement just like that and nothing less from a 1911 worshipper.

carry on. :D

donger
02-15-2007, 11:40 AM
Please stop feeding the troll.

Yes Eric, you're a troll.

(please excuse me mods) You're a jackass of the highest order. And it sounds like you have ADHD. Please take your meds, we will all benefit from it.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:42 AM
What's an emergency lane?



sholders... you know the side of the road thingie with solid white line thingies... the place you pull over when you get a flat tire... or do you change your flat tire on lane 4 of the Interstate?

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 11:43 AM
Please stop feeding the troll.

Yes Eric, you're a troll.

(please excuse me mods) You're a jackass of the highest order. And it sounds like you have ADHD. Please take your meds, we will all benefit from it.
No kidding.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 11:44 AM
Please stop feeding the troll.

Yes Eric, you're a troll.

(please excuse me mods) You're a jackass of the highest order. And it sounds like you have ADHD. Please take your meds, we will all benefit from it.

I don't take any types of drugs. Not even aspirin. But I did not have my caffiene today. I am a jackass because I can reasonably argue with 1911 worshipers and argue with them without personally insulting them?

Or am I jackass because I have a difference of opinion? Or my jackass because I think Sigs are beeuteful guns?

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Just want to let you guys know that if I take awhile to answer you it is not because I am ignoring you. I have step away for a moment.

I respect all of you and your opinions.

I LOVE YOU ALL.

Brass Balls
02-15-2007, 12:28 PM
Under a grand I think that Kimber builds a more consistent gun. Their triggers and accuracy is most noted. Springfield pulls ahead imo when they get in the price range of the TRP and Springfield's Pro and TGO1 are better than anything Kimber makes imo.

I base this on owning and shooting several examples from both makers.

rorschach
02-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Your point was recieved, considered, and recorded. So are you saying people don't move over for emergency vehicles in LA?

They don't. As a former LEO, believe me when I say they don't. Especially on a crowded freeway.

Or there are no emergency lanes in LA?

Most have shoulders, some have center medians, some dont have either. When you roll code 3, you ALWAYS go to the #1 lane.

How did you get 20 minutes? I heard the whole incident was 44 minutes. No? I am too lazy to look up the details.

I estimated the 20 minutes. 15L10, the Lieutenant, requested SWAT 8 minutes 50 seconds into the ordeal, (calculated from the time 15L40 put out the initial call for help) and they arived at 25 minutes 10 seconds. So actually, they got there in just over 16 minutes. I came up with this figure from transcripts and the 44 minute audio recording of the radio traffic I have of the incident. When I was in the academy, we had an LAPD investigator come in and lecture us on the North Hollywood robbery, as well as the Onion Field, Eulia Love and Rodney King incidents, the North Hollywood incident stuck in my mind, and I have studied it a little since.

I will just have to trust you when you say SWAT is better than Navy Seals :rolleyes:

Given SWAT's mission, I would say they are. I'm positive the SEALs are better at what they do.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 12:46 PM
pwnt

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 1:04 PM
They don't. As a former LEO, believe me when I say they don't. Especially on a crowded freeway.

OK I believe you. Note to self: Be careful when in LA because the locals don't pull over for emergency vehicles.

My question is...
SWAT did not realize they would have situations where they would be stuck in traffic? I am not trying to belittle SWAT but it sounds like they spend too much time training how to shoot and not enough time on Logistics.




Most have shoulders, some have center medians, some dont have either. When you roll code 3, you ALWAYS go to the #1 lane.
So if there is no shoulder in the #1 lane then the LEO guys are basically screwed.




I estimated the 20 minutes. 15L10, the Lieutenant, requested SWAT 8 minutes 50 seconds into the ordeal, (calculated from the time 15L40 put out the initial call for help) and they arived at 25 minutes 10 seconds. So actually, they got there in just over 16 minutes. I came up with this figure from transcripts and the 44 minute audio recording of the radio traffic I have of the incident. When I was in the academy, we had an LAPD investigator come in and lecture us on the North Hollywood robbery, as well as the Onion Field, Eulia Love and Rodney King incidents, the North Hollywood incident stuck in my mind, and I have studied it a little since.

Dam that is pretty good. 16 minutes not bad.... my question:
So if they got there in 16 minutes, how come it lasted another 32 minutes? Did they just stood around when they got there? Again not trying to belittle LA SWAT, I am just asking questions to learn more about what happened.



Given SWAT's mission, I would say they are. I'm positive the SEALs are better at what they do.
My original statement should have been "I will just have to trust you guys when you say LA SWAT are better shooters than Navy SEALs :rolleyes: since I don't know anything about either"

rorschach
02-15-2007, 1:33 PM
So if they got there in 16 minutes, how come it lasted another 32 minutes? Did they just stood around when they got there? .


From the time the first SWAT guys got there till the time they engaged and killed Emil Matasareanu was around 12 minutes. Im sure in that 12 minutes, they were waiting for the rest of the SWAT guys to get there (they dont all roll in the same van like Street and Hondo, they patrol in 2-man cars), setting up a CP, assessing the situation, formulating a plan, and actually deploying.

No doubt it could have been done better, but they did their job and only the badguys were killed.

If anyone wants an audio recording on CD, PM me.

chickenfried
02-15-2007, 2:03 PM
I've gotta agree with Donger. This pic about sums up Eric Cartmann. Just ignore him when he starts sharing his "knowledge".
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/391478910_fa733a569d_o.jpg


Please stop feeding the troll.

Yes Eric, you're a troll.

(please excuse me mods) You're a jackass of the highest order. And it sounds like you have ADHD. Please take your meds, we will all benefit from it.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 2:03 PM
That chick has a great ***.

rorschach
02-15-2007, 2:05 PM
That chick has a great ***.

+1

123456789

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:21 PM
From the time the first SWAT guys got there till the time they engaged and killed Emil Matasareanu was around 12 minutes. Im sure in that 12 minutes, they were waiting for the rest of the SWAT guys to get there (they dont all roll in the same van like Street and Hondo, they patrol in 2-man cars), setting up a CP, assessing the situation, formulating a plan, and actually deploying.

No doubt it could have been done better, but they did their job and only the badguys were killed.

If anyone wants an audio recording on CD, PM me.


Well I just read a little more on this. Not counting the 2 bad guys, Only only one person was seriously hurt in the whole ordeal, so thank God for that (but 14 good guys did recieve gunshot wounds).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout..

I am not too smart to make that article up and the article above contradicts what you say. SWAT did not arrive 16 minutes after the robbery.

The bad guys proceeded to leave the Bank building at about 24 minutes after the initial robbery and met resitance from normal LEO's with .38's and shotguns. SWAT was not here.

From the article above the first time the bad guys encountered SWAT was about 42-43 minutes after the initial bank robbing when SWAT met Masternau and engaged him and killed him.

I commend all the LEO's that day. The bad guys got what they deserved.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:26 PM
I've gotta agree with Donger. This pic about sums up Eric Cartmann. Just ignore him when he starts sharing his "knowledge".
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/391478910_fa733a569d_o.jpg


haha... ok :D

I myself don't think i am attention whore, just giving my opinion and trying to follow up on your guys post. I think you can do better and find other names to call me.

I still refuse to call anyone names :D Seems like I am doing a pretty good job pissing you 1911 worshippers off by just politely following up on all your guys post. I think you guys need more back up. You 3 against only me seems unfair. =)

rorschach
02-15-2007, 2:34 PM
SWAT did not arrive 16 minutes after the robbery.

Never once did I say they did. The first SWAT units arrived about 16 minutes after 15L10, the Lieutenant on scene, requested them.

1911_sfca
02-15-2007, 2:38 PM
Location: Fremont, just moved from NH


You got kicked out of NH, didn't you? Run out of town?



(please excuse me mods) You're a jackass of the highest order. And it sounds like you have ADHD. Please take your meds, we will all benefit from it.


I don't take any types of drugs. Not even aspirin.

I believe his point was that you should START, so that we don't have to witness your constant attention fest/military thread hijack.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:40 PM
You got kicked out of NH, didn't you? Run out of town?



I believe his point was that you should START, so that we don't have to witness your constant attention fest/military thread hijack.

There you go that's better. But I did not get kicked out of NH. I met a girl in CA so decided to move out here, then I find out I can't have guns so I will be moving to LV. You guys will be happy.

Wow, so you say I should take drugs because I am politely following up on your guys post? and because I think the 1911 is overated?

I think you guys need more reinforcements :D

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:45 PM
Never once did I say they did. The first SWAT units arrived about 16 minutes after 15L10, the Lieutenant on scene, requested them.

16 minutes for SWAT to arrive + 9 minutes into the bank robbery = 25 minutes total.

The first SWAT did encountered the bad guys at about about 43 minutes into the ordeal. 43-25 = 18 minutes standing around and accessing the situation.

I guess 33 total minutes from the time SWAT first got called to the time they ended it, thats pretty dam good!

I would have to say they reacted quick and did a good job that day. But did look like a cluster**** on TV though. My own fault for watching the news.

1911_sfca
02-15-2007, 2:45 PM
Wow, so you say I should take drugs because I am politely following up on your guys post? and because I think the 1911 is overated?

No, the point was that your aimless rambling and manic, flashback-laced posts seem to indicate ADHD and many readers are getting headaches, so you were requested to treat it.

Sorry to say, but so far no one really seems to care whether you think the 1911 is over-rated.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:54 PM
No, the point was that your aimless rambling and manic, flashback-laced posts seem to indicate ADHD and many readers are getting headaches, so you were requested to treat it.

Sorry to say, but so far no one really seems to care whether you think the 1911 is over-rated.

I am getting the feeling you guys do not like a polite debate and do not appreciate a difference of opinions =)

You said no once cares about my opinions, so why did they ask? By you posting it shows that you too care =) If you think the 1911 is the ultimate gun, good for you, I appreciate your input. I don't care if you disagree with me.

I want to politely follow up on each and every post. So are you saying you don't want me to politely follow up? That you guys (the 1911 worshippers) get a say and that's it.

My mom once told me "you will make a lot more friends if keep your opinions to yourself" :D Does not matter if you can politely debate

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 2:58 PM
I am getting the feeling you guys do not like a polite debate and do not appreciate a difference of opinions =)

You said no once cares about my opinions, so why did they ask? By you posting it shows that you too care =) If you think the 1911 is the ultimate gun, good for you, I appreciate your input. I don't care if you disagree with me.

I want to politely follow up on each and every post. So are you saying you don't want me to politely follow up? That you guys (the 1911 worshippers) get a say and that's it.

My mom once told me "you will make a lot more friends if keep your opinions to yourself" :D Does not matter if you can politely debate
You don't debate, you just shift the topic every time you get stuck in a corner.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 2:59 PM
You don't debate, you just shift the topic every time you get stuck in a corner.

can you back in this thread and show me what particuliar incident you are talking about?

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:11 PM
can you back in this thread and show me what particuliar incident you are talking about?
Your HTML links broken or something?

1911 over rated --> SWAT sucks --> What parts of the military are better at burning excrement --> whatever --> LAPD SWAT is too slow --> PEOPLE DRIVE HOW BAD IN LA? Amazing! --> ??? --> Profit!

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 3:21 PM
that is not a very fair summary. I suggest you go back and read some more. Just because SWAT uses 1911's do not mean 1911's are the greatest. Just because Navy SEALS uses Sigs do not make them the greatest.

We got offtrack with the SWAT stuff, but you said LA SWAT were better shooters than Navy SEALS. I said I don't know any about either so I will just have to trust you when you said that Statement. :)

Only one that intelligently debated me was Rorsch and if you read the post above I gave props to LA SWAT. In the process before that all I did was ask questions about the incident.

I even gave props to you when you gave your opinion of 1911's vs. Sigs vs. Glocks. I don't have an agenda here. I think 1911's are overated. You guys can change my mind, but so far you have not been able to.

Someone quoted Larry Vickers as saying in the likes of "the 1911 makes great enthusiest pistols but not great service pistols"... so I am not the only one that thinks the 1911 is overated. :D

JACKPOT ---> now what? :D

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:26 PM
"Service pistols" just means something that survives institutionalized idiocy. Greatness, it isn't.

The 1911 with proper care and training will outperform other pistols when it counts.

1911s

1) Shoot a big bullet
2) Have single stack magazines and comfortable grips
3) Have a great trigger
4) Control well under recoil
5) Customize to a wider range of configurations than is possible with other pistols

Putting big bullets on target fast is the name of the game. You tell me what does that better.

Pvt. Cowboy
02-15-2007, 3:31 PM
Gonna try to get this abortion of a thread back on track:

I have a Springfield 1911-A1 of late '80s vintage. It's perfect milspec GI, but I wish that it wasn't Parkerized. I'd prefer a pre-WWII blued finish, but I have what I have. It's a decent reliable shooter, and I have only heard about metallurgy problems with the stainless Springfields built on outsourced Brazilian Imbel receivers.

A Kimber is going to whoop a modern Springfield Armory 1911 pattern at everything --- Fit, finish, inherent accuracy, reliability, flash, collector status, and features. The only bad thing I can say about the Kimber is admittedly irrational: I absolutely hate the name 'Kimber' and it's revolting company logo. It's as if the owner of the company named his enterprise after some exotic dancer/stripper that he's been fooling around with and even let her sign her name on the side of every slide in her own handwriting.

Every time I hear someone mention 'Kimber' or I see a photo of one, I imagine that somewhere at the Kimber factory there's a hazelnut-brown tanned platinum blonde with 44DDs wearing a leopard skin pattern G-string bikini and a navel piercing signing each 1911 slide with a electroscribe then kissing it with her peach colored lipstick right before she sends it on down the assembly line.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:33 PM
New sig!

rorschach
02-15-2007, 3:37 PM
A Kimber is going to whoop a modern Springfield Armory 1911 pattern at everything --- Fit, finish, inherent accuracy, reliability, flash, collector status, and features.

Owning both, I would say the Springer loaded is all that.

And more reliable. My 2 Kimbers needed break in and still occasionally hiccup.

I love my Kimbers, but I never had any problem any of my Springers.

You got me with the 44DD's. Support single mothers- buy a Kimber :D

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 3:49 PM
Nice post, that's better. Arguing the topic and not how much EricCartman sucks :)

I think a Sig P220 does everything you mentioned below just as well exept for #5. I don't know any person that customizes a Sig P220 on the level of a 1911, but I bet you if they did they would have one badass gun. Let me just say I spent $500 OTD for my "factory refurbished" SigP229 and $550 for my used Sig P220 with night sights. I don't think I can get a 1911 for this price that will outlast the Sig. Sigs are known for their longevity and there has been cases where Sigs shoot just as straight at 10,000 rounds as it did when it was new., I have heard this from multiple sources, here is one: http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230

My P220 does not have that much round through it, but my P229 has at least 3000 by me alone. I had a really old beat up SigP229 that I let go just recently because I did not need 2 P229's and that was a great gun too.

Another advantage the SigP220 has over the 1911 is how easy it is to field strip and clean. You don't have to take apart a Sig anymore than the usaul field strips for thousands and thousands of trouble free rounds.

I think for service life, ease of maintenence, and reliability nothing can beat a Sig.

As always I would not count one source for all your info. Check out what some of these guys have to say about the Sig P220, and you can check other forums too.
http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20211&gun=Pistol


"Service pistols" just means something that survives institutionalized idiocy. Greatness, it isn't.

The 1911 with proper care and training will outperform other pistols when it counts.

1911s

1) Shoot a big bullet
2) Have single stack magazines and comfortable grips
3) Have a great trigger
4) Control well under recoil
5) Customize to a wider range of configurations than is possible with other pistols

Putting big bullets on target fast is the name of the game. You tell me what does that better.

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:53 PM
...no. Sigs do not have a trigger mechanism as good as a 1911.

They just don't.

That is a major -1 for them.

slick_711
02-15-2007, 3:56 PM
Again I say:

100+ years of excellence > you.
1911 > you.
Springfield > you.
Kimber > you.
Springfield > Kimber.

Peace.

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 3:56 PM
...no. Sigs do not have a trigger mechanism as good as a 1911.

They just don't.

That is a major -1 for them.


What do you mean as good? feel? longevity? I would argue that. I got a $1500 1911 and have to say I like the Sig trigger just as much as my 1911 (as far as feel goes). Also if you read these guys, some of them think Sig has the perfect trigger.

http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20211&gun=Pistol

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 3:59 PM
Yes yes, you have a bunch of guys posting on the net. We do that here we don't need references from anywhere else for that.

1911 - SA only, straight pull (no pivoting BS), light, easily adjustable trigger reach distance, and very small reset distance.

Sig - DA for the most part, pivoting, not light on DA obviously, adjustable??, reset distance??

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 4:04 PM
Yes yes, you have a bunch of guys posting on the net. We do that here we don't need references from anywhere else for that.


so what makes you so special compared to the rest of us guys on the Net? :D I at least posted pictures of myself while in the Army and some of my toys at the range just to give everyone a clearer picture what I am about. Take the info for what it's worth, but if you cross check your sources and research you will see the Sigs are the ultimate. 10,000 rounds BABY!

Aluisious
02-15-2007, 4:07 PM
You have fun with your Sig, your cross checking, and your research :rolleyes:

EricCartmann
02-15-2007, 4:28 PM
You have fun with your Sig, your cross checking, and your research :rolleyes:

Don't worry I will. And I will have fun with my 1911 too.

Just as you said that a toy came home for my TRP =) A TLR-2 light.

I took these pictures just for you =)

boogak
02-15-2007, 5:04 PM
everyoneshould be able to state their opinion, how long has it been since we've seen a thread like this?

cho034442
02-15-2007, 6:12 PM
You really can’t go wrong with either the SA Loaded or Kimber Custom II.

My Kimber TLE II (around 600 round counts) did have a couple of hiccups.

1. Slide locked back twice with 1 round in the mag. These happened during the first 50 rounds and haven’t happened since. I was using CMC and Wilson mags. There was also a possibility that my thumb bumped up the Slide Release to cause these.
2. Trigger creep. Even with the creep, at 50 feet, I was able to put almost all the rounds inside the big black circle of a 25 yards slow fire target.
The sear was replaced by Alan Tanaka and the trigger pull is now at around 4 lbs (it was at 5 lbs).

Alan told me besides regular clean and lube, replace the recoil spring every 3,000 rounds and most 1911 .45 should work fine and last a long time.

The Kimber has been working fine using brand new ammos and I use Independence 230g FMJ, most of the time.

I am about as accurate when shooting G19 (first generation, all original), but I would say that I am more consistent with the Kimber. But, I haven’t shot the G19 for almost 10 years and I have been shooting the Sig GSR Revo and Kimber at least once a month for a couple of hundred rounds for the past 6 months.

I also have a fairly new Sig P220 Carry (with around 200 round counts) and it did take me some practice to get use to its trigger. I can group nicely at around 20 feet, but I haven’t tried to shoot target at 50 feet with it. As for the long trigger reset, Sig now offers “Short Reset Trigger” (SRT) for the P220.

For me, I can shoot fairly well with 1911 .45 and Glock with little practice. I believe this has something to do with the design of their trigger systems. However, what works for me, may not work for you, as "Kruzer" would say. :D

madjack956
02-15-2007, 6:36 PM
All this back and forth really has to stop.. Lets put an end to it all, and find out what Chuck Norris uses....:cool:

sammy
02-15-2007, 6:42 PM
This thread was done a long time ago.

Pvt. Cowboy
02-15-2007, 8:46 PM
Owning both, I would say the Springer loaded is all that.


I like my Springfield 1911, but it's a plain jane GI spec. No work done on it period. It does have that typical gritty trigger but I believe that I will leave it alone.

I'm not a big handgun fan, but I have another nice pistol that I concentrate on. If I get serious about a 1911, I believe that I'd rather build it custom and never use anything else. That's a tough trick given what little choice I have from the DOJ approved list.

ghideon
02-15-2007, 10:41 PM
I vote SA. I have two, 9mm Loaded Target and a TRP Operator. Both new as of this year, with over 1000 rounds fired in the 9 and 300 so far in the TRP. I am very pleased with the 9mm, and VERY pleased with the .45.

That being said, I do agree that the 1911 is overrated, as far as convential internet wisdom goes. The way some people tell it, the 1911 can do no wrong, ever. There are many different pistols, all for many different jobs and niches. Every gun collector should own at least one 1911, just like they should own a wondernine.

EricCartmann
02-16-2007, 8:22 AM
everyoneshould be able to state their opinion, how long has it been since we've seen a thread like this?

Most of the time they can. But when you cross into the Holy Land of 1911's and say just a spec of critism about them you are committing heresy and you will be tried by 1911 prosecuters. They will go after your character if they can't get their point accross.. Much like what happened to me here :D

Kruzr
02-16-2007, 9:22 AM
Most of the time they can. But when you cross into the Holy Land of 1911's and say just a spec of critism about them you are committing heresy and you will be tried by 1911 prosecuters. They will go after your character if they can't get their point accross.. Much like what happened to me here :D
What happened to you here Eric was that you spouted ignorance and got called on it. If you bother to study and understand the mechanics of a 1911 and the ballistics of the .45 ACP round, you would understand why it can be made to be a far more accurate gun than a Sig, an HK or any other gun that uses an overhead disconnector bar between the trigger and the sear.

If you really think there are other big bore handguns that can match the accuracy of a 1911, then I suggest you take a trip to Camp Perry next year at the nationals and count how many non-1911's you see on the line.

(Hint...........you can cut off your fingers and still count on your hands.)

(And yes, I own and shoot other guns besides my 1911's.)

EricCartmann
02-16-2007, 9:56 AM
What happened to you here Eric was that you spouted ignorance and got called on it. If you bother to study and understand the mechanics of a 1911 and the ballistics of the .45 ACP round, you would understand why it can be made to be a far more accurate gun than a Sig, an HK or any other gun that uses an overhead disconnector bar between the trigger and the sear.

If you really think there are other big bore handguns that can match the accuracy of a 1911, then I suggest you take a trip to Camp Perry next year at the nationals and count how many non-1911's you see on the line.

(Hint...........you can cut off your fingers and still count on your hands.)

(And yes, I own and shoot other guns besides my 1911's.)

I am glad to see the 1911 cult adding another follower for back up. I was getting bored.

1) All I said was the 1911 is overated. How is this spouting ignorance? I have shot many 1911's and even own one. My SigP220 is only slightly less accurate than my TRP at 1/3 the cost.

2) How much do these guys spend on their 1911's to go to these matches? I am guessing thousands. I bet you the guys who don't carry 1911's are considered outcast in these competitions :D

3) How accurate does a side arm have to be? I figure if you are comsistently hitting black at 25 yds, that is pretty dam good. Most of us buy pistols for concealment, home defense, and CQB situations, not for sniper weapons :D or even match competition. I guess if I was doing national matches I too would consider a 1911.

4) At 10,000 rounds a Sig is just getting broken in. Can a 1911 do that?

5) I am not the only one that thinks 1911's are overated. If you want I can provide links to other posters from other threads.

Some things I did learn from you guys:
1) 1911's must be good beacause LA SWAT uses them
2) Navy Seals uses Sig P226. Sigs are not good. Navy Seals do not know how to shoot.

I can go all DAY baby.. ALL DAY, even weekend DAYS and holiDAYS :D

Kruzr
02-16-2007, 10:17 AM
I am glad to see the 1911 cult adding another follower for back up. I was getting bored.

1) All I said was the 1911 is overated. How is this spouting ignorance? I have shot many 1911's and even own one. My SigP220 is only slightly less accurate than my TRP at 1/3 the cost.

2) How much do these guys spend on their 1911's to go to these matches? I am guessing thousands. I bet you the guys who don't carry 1911's are considered outcast in these competitions :D

3) How accurate does a side arm have to be? I figure if you are comsistently hitting black at 25 yds, that is pretty dam good. Most of us buy pistols for concealment, home defense, and CQB situations, not for sniper weapons :D or even match competition. I guess if I was doing national matches I too would consider a 1911.

4) At 10,000 rounds a Sig is just getting broken in. Can a 1911 do that?

5) I am not the only one that thinks 1911's are overated. If you want I can provide links to other posters from other threads.

Some things I did learn from you guys:
1) 1911's must be good beacause LA SWAT uses them
2) Navy Seals uses Sig P226. Sigs are not good. Navy Seals do not know how to shoot.

I can go all DAY baby.. ALL DAY, even weekend DAYS and holiDAYS :D

Very few people ever shoot a gun at another person in their life. I don't even practice shooting silhouettes, I shoot bullseye targets. And yes, for me, a gun has to be more accurate than just being able to hit the black at 25 yards.

Guys who don't use 1911's at Camp Perry aren't considered outcasts, they are non-existent because they can't shoot the scores.

And yes, 1911's go far more than 10K rounds. We had a range rental that went 140K. It included one new sear and hammer at 90K. One of mine has over 40K, another 25K. I only have one with less than 10K down it.

I shoot Sigs pretty good but I find most people who believe the 1911 does not live up to it's reputation, simply haven't shot many or like you expressed, aren't interested in pinpoint accuracy.

If you were in SoCal, I'd invite you to come shoot some of my 1911's along side of your Sig to help you understand the following the 1911 has.

EricCartmann
02-16-2007, 10:40 AM
.................................................. ........

EricCartmann
02-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Very few people ever shoot a gun at another person in their life. I don't even practice shooting silhouettes, I shoot bullseye targets. And yes, for me, a gun has to be more accurate than just being able to hit the black at 25 yards.

Guys who don't use 1911's at Camp Perry aren't considered outcasts, they are non-existent because they can't shoot the scores.

And yes, 1911's go far more than 10K rounds. We had a range rental that went 140K. It included one new sear and hammer at 90K. One of mine has over 40K, another 25K. I only have one with less than 10K down it.

I shoot Sigs pretty good but I find most people who believe the 1911 does not live up to it's reputation, simply haven't shot many or like you expressed, aren't interested in pinpoint accuracy.

Thank you for seeing my point. I was expecting another personal attack since that seems to be the norm here :)

So for you the accuracy of a 1911 is a must. You are willing to pay a premium just so the holes can touch :D nothing wrong with that. Therefore, for you it is not overated.

For me I will only use a handgun for self defense. If I use one it will be hit, run, and hide. Then call for law enforcement or backup. I tend to practice drawing, pointing and fast mag changes more. I don't plan on doing any full on bunker assaults with my 1911 or any other handgun.

Wow those 1911's you have are on steroids. My bunkmate in the Army was always working on 1911's and he always complained how much of a POS they were. So I guess my first experiene with them were not positive ones. But that did not stop me from admiring them and buying one.

Thanks for the invite to your range. Once I close on my house in Vegas you are welcome to come out and shoot some of my toys. I just bought some optics for my M1A and M4 :)

ivanimal
02-16-2007, 10:57 AM
This thread has now run its course, sorry to the original poster as to what was said here after. Please consider all sources.:(