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View Full Version : Talk me into an ar-15 or not?


Abraham32
10-17-2011, 8:03 AM
So I have been saving for a remington 700 build and my buddy is trying to talk me into an ar-15 instead. This would be mainly a bench/prone rifle. Looking to get out to 300yds my range goes out to 500 but I think 300 is a good start. Over the years I've sold most of my rifles to fund handgun projects so I think its time to get a nice rig. This is my dream ar-15 or at least pretty close. http://kevinholman.com/pics/guns/rifles/AR/SPR_1_2008.jpg

So I figure if I start with this http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_793/products_id/61633 I'm under my $1000 budget for the riffle and it leaves me a good amount for a nice scope and ammo. I really wanted to build it from the ground up but cant seem to beat this price. I figure I'm going to take it all apart and put it back together any way so its kinda the same thing. I can always upgrade the trigger, stock and free float tube later.

Good start? Any other Bench ar-15 under $1000 you would recommend? Or should I just stay with the Rem 700 idea and scrap the ar-15

21SF
10-17-2011, 8:04 AM
I really dont think you will fit into an AR15 but ok,

come on dude get in the ar man, please.

but seriously an ar will be able to engage your targets out the 600 yards for less ammo cost than the R700.

bloodhawke83
10-17-2011, 8:06 AM
go ar-10, you can shoot the big cals in it.

mike_the_wino
10-17-2011, 8:11 AM
...my $1000 budget for the riffle...
No way you are going to get the performance out an AR style that you would compared to a 700 for that kind of money. A performance upper could run $1,000-$2,000+ alone. My White Oak upper was like $800. That stock is $200 alone. I don't even want to guess what that scope runs but I am guessing it's north of 1k,

But you are also talking apples to oranges here. If you want a 700, get a 700. If you want an AR, get an AR. The only gun you will hate. Ab-so-f*&%ing-lutely loathe, will be the one that someone talked you into buying.

21SF
10-17-2011, 8:16 AM
you dont need a 2000 dollar upper to reach 300-500 yards.

IS 1000 with or without optics...

Buds wont send you any rifle that has a pistol grip.

Rouge Recon
10-17-2011, 8:20 AM
So are the 700 and AR the only two your considering?

mike_the_wino
10-17-2011, 8:24 AM
you dont need a 2000 dollar upper to reach 300-500 yards.
True. But that configuration pictured would exceed the $1,000 budget, don't you think?

I just built something close to that and it ran me close to 2k, all in. And that was with just a Redfield scope. And I had the Gisselle trigger which, if I had to buy, would have definitely put me at the 2k mark.

21SF
10-17-2011, 8:28 AM
Yea THAT rifle w/ optics is def around 2.

thai562
10-17-2011, 8:29 AM
If you don't have a 700, get one now or later.
I don't have an AR-15 yet, but I am looking at Sig 516. I like to build, but the price is so cheap when you are look at all the features.
But my biggest problem with the AR-15 is the .223 rounds. If you like the .223 stopping power and affective range, than you should get at least 1 ar-15.

21SF
10-17-2011, 8:32 AM
If you don't have a 700, get one now or later.
I don't have an AR-15 yet, but I am looking at Sig 516. I like to build, but the price is so cheap when you are look at all the features.
But my biggest problem with the AR-15 is the .223 rounds. If you like the .223 stopping power and affective range, than you should get at least 1 ar-15.

What DO you like? with better stopping power and effective range?

Every tool has its purpose........

h0use
10-17-2011, 8:40 AM
buy an ar15 and join the club! plus you can make it the way you want!

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 8:43 AM
The bushmaster Varminter upper I have will shoot 1/2 MOA in a rest. I've seen it as low as $500 at Turners...

A bolt gun is a thing of the PAST .308 and under.

Abraham32
10-17-2011, 8:44 AM
I definitively want to stick to .223 its just going to be for the range and the .223 has plenty of power to get out to 500 yrds and hit paper if I ever even get out that far. Its also cheaper than .308 alternative.

HK Dave
10-17-2011, 8:47 AM
Get the Rem 700... there's just something satisfying about knowing you hit center of target then reaching over and CHIK CHIK... then watch as your beautiful piece of brass flips out of your rifle right next to you.

shadow65
10-17-2011, 8:53 AM
AR's can be made to shoot very accurately but for consistant accuracy at long distance, I would go with the bolt rifle.
Dave N

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 8:54 AM
I definitively want to stick to .223 its just going to be for the range and the .223 has plenty of power to get out to 500 yrds and hit paper if I ever even get out that far. Its also cheaper than .308 alternative.

My 69g .223 will get on the 18" orange steel at 700y just fine, inside 600y is bomb proof. I'd get an AR, maybe piece it together if I knew exactly what I wanted. Stay away from chrome lined, preference to chrome moly or stainless, 20-24". A Timney trigger will give you a bolt gun feel, Geissele
a heaver two stage. On ARs, the trigger, barrel, lockup of the bolt, free floating handguards and pre-loading the bipod is critical. Most everything else is personal preference.

I have bolt guns, they never leave the safe; admittedly, they are easier to master and more accurate for the novice. The AR precision rifle requires more discipline, is more critical of weight on the cheekrest, preloading the bipod, trigger squeeze. Having mastered an AR, jumping on smeone else's bolt gun is childs play.

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 8:57 AM
Get the Rem 700... there's just something satisfying about knowing you hit center of target then reaching over and CHIK CHIK... then watch as your beautiful piece of brass flips out of your rifle right next to you.

AR: Shooting a line of clay pigeons at 300 yards and hitting the second one while the brass from the first round is still sliding across the cement, ground, etc. 20-30x in a row in a free state.

Abraham32
10-17-2011, 8:58 AM
So my best bet is building this thing, seems to be the easiest way to get it into California. Ammo Bros has lowers for $100 when they go on sale so the Bushmaster Upper and the DPMS is about the same price any other brands around the $600 mark for a flat top?

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 9:06 AM
I can't vouch for the DPMS, only the Shrubmaster "IF" you follow their break-in procedure. My rifle came into its own around 200-250 rounds of Blackhills 69g SMKHP, recommended by Bushmaster. Initially I wasn't impressed; had fliers until a "former-SF" type showed me the ropes precision shooting an AR. That guy could stuff a five shot group into a dime at 100y. Bushmaster gets dinged a lot for failures in various carbine courses, the type shooting where you severely heat stress the gun. For the price, the BM upper should give you 2,500-3,000 rounds of service before needing something (sold my BM carbine upper with about 2,500 rds through it, not much wear to be honest).
I'd look for the 24" 1:9 Varminter, you will usually find the 1:8 Predator in 20" though, I have no data for the later.

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 9:13 AM
Another AR vs Bolt argument. Guys ask me why I don't use a spotter. Then they shoot the OBR with a PWS brake and realize they can watch the round strike the target. At 800y, you can send the second round off as the first hits!! I can shoot the OBR all day (can't afford too), my bolt 30.06 is just pure punishment and doesn't do anything my OBR won't do.

thai562
10-17-2011, 9:19 AM
Every tool has its purpose........
Totally agree with this.
But, deep down we all want a do it all rifle. I was thinking AR-10, just because you can use .308 for close range, but you can't us a .223 for long range. I know you give up, light weigh, amount of ammo you can carry, and the cost of the bullet. But those trade off are not that important to me (to the military, Yes) since I don't carry my rifle for a long period of time.

dieselpower
10-17-2011, 9:24 AM
a rem 700 at a max of 500 yards is BBBOOOORRRRIIINNNGGG. Get the AR.

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 9:28 AM
Do it all equals 18" AR .308 with a QD scope and a QD RDS. If the mount is of high quality it should retain zero fairly well, use a CTR stock with a RISR and a bipod with a QD, keeps the weight down for close in. The Larue PredatAR is crazy light weight, initial reports indicate sub-MOA accuracy; not sure what happens when the pencil barrel heats up. This or a SCAR 17s....

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 9:29 AM
a rem 700 at a max of 500 yards is BBBOOOORRRRIIINNNGGG. Get the AR.

Very....

infernl
10-17-2011, 9:29 AM
Unless you want to get into reloading custom rounds, I'd do with an AR10 to knock on the 300+ yard range. A Remington 700 has its place too, its just not as interchangeable as any AR platform build.

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 9:33 AM
If you go bolt, get a 300 Win-Mag or better. Makes childsplay of 1,000 shots.

captbilly
10-17-2011, 10:36 AM
You can stay under $1000 and build an AR that will shoot as well as some bolt guns, but you must be careful where you put the money Go to Model one, or AR parts or one of a dozen other places, and get a bull barrel flat top/A3 upper. Use the A2 stock that come with the kit, it may not be quite as nice as a PRS or other target stock but it is stable and will shoot great. Any lower is fine but get a lower parts kit with the Rock River match trigger. The standard AR trigger is awful, and the Rock River when purchased with a lower parts kit (which you must have) only costs about $60. You could put this rifle together in a few hours with minimal tools I used screwdrivers and plyers with tape over the jaws (so I wouldn't mark the receiver). If you buy a kit with an assembled upper then the work left for you to do is non-precision work, akin to putting a simple kids toy together. I think you could build the rifle for $700, which would leave you enough money for a Millett PRS-1 mil mil scope. The Millet is surely not a Schmidt and Bender but I am shooting 10 shot0.5 moa groups with match ammo with that setup.

Don't spend anything on quad rails, flip up sights, fore grips, ambi safeties, fancy pistol grips, or anything that doesn't contribute to accurate shooting. If, at some point in the future, you want to take it up a notch then have a cut rifling barrel installed (Krieger, etc.) Cost about $600, and eventually a Schmidt bender police marksman (or night force, Swarovski, Zeiss Hensholt, etc.) but that will cost you at least a couple of thousand dollars. Yo may also eventually want to go to a geiselle high speed match or ATC gold trigger, but you can be completely competitive with the Rock River trigger.

One last thing, make sure you get a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel. The 1-9 barrel on the rifle you linked to will not handle the 69 - 77 grain bullets needed to get out to long ranges .

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 10:43 AM
You can stay under $1000 and build an AR that will shoot as well as some bolt guns, but you must be careful where you put the money Go to Model one, or AR parts or one of a dozen other places, and get a bull barrel flat top/A3 upper. Use the A2 stock that come with the kit, it may not be quite as nice as a PRS or other target stock but it is stable and will shoot great. Any lower is fine but get a lower parts kit with the Rock River match trigger. The standard AR trigger is awful, and the Rock River when purchased with a lower parts kit (which you must have) only costs about $60. You could put this rifle together in a few hours with minimal tools I used screwdrivers and plyers with tape over the jaws (so I wouldn't mark the receiver). If you buy a kit with an assembled upper then the work left for you to do is non-precision work, akin to putting a simple kids toy together. I think you could build the rifle for $700, which would leave you enough money for a Millett PRS-1 mil mil scope. The Millet is surely not a Schmidt and Bender but I am shooting 10 shot0.5 moa groups with match ammo with that setup.

Don't spend anything on quad rails, flip up sights, fore grips, ambi safeties, fancy pistol grips, or anything that doesn't contribute to accurate shooting. If, at some point in the future, you want to take it up a notch then have a cut rifling barrel installed (Krieger, etc.) Cost about $600, and eventually a Schmidt bender police marksman (or night force, Swarovski, Zeiss Hensholt, etc.) but that will cost you at least a couple of thousand dollars. Yo may also eventually want to go to a geiselle high speed match or ATC gold trigger, but you can be completely competitive with the Rock River trigger.

One last thing, make sure you get a 1-7 or 1-8 twist barrel. The 1-9 barrel on the rifle you linked to will not handle the 69 - 77 grain bullets needed to get out to long ranges .

I agree with all this except the 1:9 69g SMK out of a 24" barrel. I shoot this setup with fantastic results, 700+ yards to be exact; it's also the Bushmaster recommended round for the Varminter. I do agree 1:8 would be better, only paper would tell.

Edit: didn't see the setup he linked to, probably a shorter barrel. Also the 1:9 will allow FAST 40-45g ammo for ultra-flat prairie dog shooting, which is key when you don't want to range inside 300y.

tacticalcity
10-17-2011, 10:55 AM
For what you want it for, a .308 AR would be more fun. Even a Remington 700 with a McMillan A-Series stock as an upgrade down the road when you can afford it.

It's not that you can't build a really nice bench rest AR in 223. It's just that the .308 makes a much more fun bench rest queen (aside from the cash register sound you hear every time you squeeze the trigger).

Now, the best argument in favor of an AR15 is when you start talking about taking a carbine course. Extremely fun, extremely exciting, and very darn cool. But the gun you want for that is a 16" AR with a red dot...which is very different from what you're talking about.

Basically doing the stuff they focus on in the popular training videos, but in real life with you behind the rifle...you can find a training course in your neck of the woods by searching the Competition, Action-Shooting and Training Section here on Calguns. Up here in Sacramento I recommend Gray Ops Firearms Training (http://gofast1.com) formerly Stone Cobra Tactical. The owner Gordan is a great guy. I took a Carbine II course with him. He gave me a lot of one-on-one instruction and really helped me out (he was the back up instructor for that particular course and he was going around making sure everybody the attention they needed to master the material). Great guy! Everyone there is a great guy.

Here is the Vickers video. For the most part the schools all teach the same stuff and do the same drills. They are a lot of fun.
5hKaPkvOtEo

Knife Edge
10-17-2011, 11:05 AM
Carbine course with a BB? He wants a target rifle. .308 between $1-1.50/shot, reman Blackhills .223 $.50/shot. .308 is expensive for learning fundamentals, but agree more fun.

someR1
10-17-2011, 11:56 AM
No way you are going to get the performance out an AR style that you would compared to a 700 for that kind of money. A performance upper could run $1,000-$2,000+ alone. My White Oak upper was like $800. That stock is $200 alone. I don't even want to guess what that scope runs but I am guessing it's north of 1k,

But you are also talking apples to oranges here. If you want a 700, get a 700. If you want an AR, get an AR. The only gun you will hate. Ab-so-f*&%ing-lutely loathe, will be the one that someone talked you into buying.

I agree. If you are looking for precision, get the 700.

mike_the_wino
10-17-2011, 12:03 PM
I definitively want to stick to .223 its just going to be for the range and the .223 has plenty of power to get out to 500 yrds and hit paper if I ever even get out that far. Its also cheaper than .308 alternative.
Oh....in that case. AR all the way.

XDshooter
10-17-2011, 12:22 PM
No way you are going to get the performance out an AR style that you would compared to a 700 for that kind of money. A performance upper could run $1,000-$2,000+ alone. My White Oak upper was like $800. That stock is $200 alone. I don't even want to guess what that scope runs but I am guessing it's north of 1k,

But you are also talking apples to oranges here. If you want a 700, get a 700. If you want an AR, get an AR. The only gun you will hate. Ab-so-f*&%ing-lutely loathe, will be the one that someone talked you into buying.

Plenty of off the shelf uppers will do 600yds no problem. RRA Predator Pursuit or Varmint ~$600.

Even a nicely built upper with a Krieger or Lilja Barrel will run you no more than $1200. Even a White Oak Match upper with a Krieger barrel only runs $940.


ALSO, that scope in the pic looks like a SS 10x42M $399. Damn good scope for the money. Also non-side focus for $299 same performance, lower price.

donking
10-17-2011, 12:26 PM
go ar-10, you can shoot the big cals in it.

:iagree: If you want the distance/accuracy/fun, go with an AR10

Abraham32
10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=79
This seems a little to good to be true? Puts me at around $750 with upgrades for a complete rifle... with some extra cash to upgrade anything on it if I don't like it after break in...