PDA

View Full Version : PDW in CA ... any options?


ExtremeX
10-16-2011, 11:21 PM
PDW (Personal Defense Weapons)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon

Pistols and Rifles... and nothing in between...

I'm really not sure if this should be in the rifle or handgun section as the only thing that really fits the size/application are things like AR or AK pistols.

I was thinking of an AR pistol in 9mm or .40... Maybe even the RRA piston system that doesn't have the typical buffer tube seen in the AR pistols...

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=441

Anyone have any insight into this?

I not a ballistics noob so I'm not really looking for reasons why an AR pistols sucks. I get the round is seriously inefficient due to barrel length in both velocity and range...

Since we cant really have SBRs here, are there any options besides something like this?

RRichie09
10-16-2011, 11:23 PM
AR pistol in 6.8?

223556
10-16-2011, 11:24 PM
AR Pistol in any caliber you can make it in is the only way for CA that would be the easiest I think...

ExtremeX
10-16-2011, 11:43 PM
AR pistol seems like the way to go, im just wondering if there is anything else out there. Im also considering a bulpup type design, but I still think it might be too long...

Caliber wise I would pick something I would actually buy/shoot often. I'm a fan of standardization, and I have a lot of 5.56 and 9mm. .40 seems like better round for a AR pistol tho.

6.8 sounds good, but I think I wouldn't use it as much due to ammo costs.

RRichie09
10-16-2011, 11:50 PM
Why do you want a PDW?

ExtremeX
10-16-2011, 11:57 PM
Fill the gap... I cant have an SBR so I'm looking for the next best thing.

The thread was more for discussion, chances I would actually buy an AR pistol are pretty slim as there are a lot of other things I like and rather have. I know its not very practical.

But I like to know my options...

RRichie09
10-17-2011, 12:11 AM
Fill the gap... I cant have an SBR so I'm looking for the next best thing.

The thread was more for discussion, chances I would actually buy an AR pistol are pretty slim as there are a lot of other things I like and rather have. I know its not very practical.

But I like to know my options...

Yeah it sucks. I have plans to build a 11.5" AR pistol that I will convert to an SBR as soon as we regain our freedom, but just like you those are plans for the future. Some many guns... not enough money :facepalm:

Quiet
10-17-2011, 6:54 AM
M-1 Carbine.
The US Militaries first PDW.

OHW
10-17-2011, 7:44 AM
Draco

starsnuffer
10-17-2011, 8:54 AM
I like that AR57 pistol that someone has posted.

Draco's require a sling and tension to be accurate, it's not really a one handed weapon. Now a 5.7 in a well balanced package can actually be used one handed to shoot your wife when she turns into a zombie while driving down the highway in your Prius at 63.4MPH, and actually have a chance to score a headshot.

-W

TheExpertish
10-17-2011, 8:54 AM
PDW (Personal Defense Weapons)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon

Pistols and Rifles... and nothing in between...

I'm really not sure if this should be in the rifle or handgun section as the only thing that really fits the size/application are things like AR or AK pistols.

I was thinking of an AR pistol in 9mm or .40... Maybe even the RRA piston system that doesn't have the typical buffer tube seen in the AR pistols...

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=441

Anyone have any insight into this?

I not a ballistics noob so I'm not really looking for reasons why an AR pistols sucks. I get the round is seriously inefficient due to barrel length in both velocity and range...

Since we cant really have SBRs here, are there any options besides something like this?

What's your purpose? Is this more of a novelty or you have a specific goal and role to fill?

21SF
10-17-2011, 9:00 AM
Hit up your local PD i hear they have lots of MP5....

m03
10-17-2011, 9:09 AM
Uselessness and caliber concerns aside, there' always the Vector V51 or a FAL pistol :)

Semi-random images found via Google:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i9/sigx/V51K001.jpg
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/ds-arms-fal-pistol2.jpg

OHW
10-17-2011, 9:12 AM
So Gads are you appointted as investigator ? LEO is here to catch all who want PDWs for ????

m03
10-17-2011, 9:33 AM
So Gads are you appointted as investigator ? LEO is here to catch all who want PDWs for ????

Wow, paranoid much? I think asking about the intended role of a weapon helps with suggesting which one to purchase.

chead
10-17-2011, 9:40 AM
Franklin XO-26b, Draco/mini Draco. HK and clones.

starsnuffer
10-17-2011, 11:25 AM
If only we could do SBR and silencers in this state:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/470/honeybadgersmall.jpg

-W

Untamed1972
10-17-2011, 11:31 AM
AR pistol seems like the way to go, im just wondering if there is anything else out there. Im also considering a bulpup type design, but I still think it might be too long...

Caliber wise I would pick something I would actually buy/shoot often. I'm a fan of standardization, and I have a lot of 5.56 and 9mm. .40 seems like better round for a AR pistol tho.

6.8 sounds good, but I think I wouldn't use it as much due to ammo costs.

Even a bullpup design has to meet min. barrel and OAL length requirements....which essentially ends up being the same length as an AR rifle with 16" barrel and collapsed stock.

TheExpertish
10-17-2011, 4:20 PM
So Gads are you appointted as investigator ? LEO is here to catch all who want PDWs for ????

Yeah, you know me.

Draco, FAL, there are many to choose from. I'd love me an MP7.

santacruzstefan
10-17-2011, 5:50 PM
If only we could do SBR and silencers in this state:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/470/honeybadgersmall.jpg

-W

i want whatever this is

Peter.Steele
10-17-2011, 6:33 PM
If only we could do SBR and silencers in this state:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/470/honeybadgersmall.jpg

-W



Honey badger don't give a ****.

luchador768
10-17-2011, 7:01 PM
For what it's worth my FS2000 is only about 2-3 inches longer than my 11.5 AR pistol. It's been a great rifle so far.

Inquirer
10-17-2011, 7:35 PM
Yoink!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/r3168912631.jpg
Draco AOW. Good ballistic performance out of that barrel length, compact, cheap to shoot. Punch holes in things.

--Inq

scootle
10-17-2011, 8:00 PM
I know there are CA-legal FN PS90s out there, but that's more like rifle than PDW, I suppose.

wash
10-17-2011, 8:17 PM
If you don't mind the mag lock, someone makes an 80% streched 10-22 receiver that you can make a .22 magnum charger out of.

There are Uzi pistols, CZ Scorpions, MP5 pistols, etc.

Lagduf
10-17-2011, 9:13 PM
Yoink!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n32/qbertquartz2/r3168912631.jpg
Draco AOW. Good ballistic performance out of that barrel length, compact, cheap to shoot. Punch holes in things.

--Inq

I agree with this. Draco AOW or an AMD65 AOW.

TheExpertish
10-18-2011, 9:40 AM
Honey badger don't give a ****.

I was waiting for that, haha. Honey Badger just takes what it wants.

Bhobbs
10-18-2011, 9:42 AM
M-1 Carbine.
The US Militaries first PDW.

This.

Light, compact and decent performance.

jrr
10-18-2011, 9:56 AM
M1 Carbine all the way. It was in fact developed SPECIFICALLY as a PDW for rear echelon troops and staff. The fact that it was so awesome that it saw widespread use as a front line weapon is just gravy.

The cartridge: .30M1 Carbine- not too expensive, similar to .223 prices. With soft point ammo you get performance equal or better than .357 magnum. Also, don't believe everything you read on the interwebs. Do your research and you'll find that the claims that is was "underpowered" have more to do with comparing it to a full rifle cartridge like the 30-06. Sure, if you're used to a gun that can shoot through a cinderblock wall or a ten inch thick tree, the carbine seems wimpy. For anti-personnel its awesome.

The gun: The carbine is light, short, and maneuverable. No bullet buttons here! Mags might be your only problem, unless you bought some before the ban. The ten rounders are a little iffy, but serviceable from what I hear. The GI 15 rounders are the best for reliability.

Controls are simple and straightforward. Flip a lever for the safety, push a button to drop the mag. Pull back that giant piece of steel sticking out the side to load. So simple a caveman or a GI could do it.

The sights are typical WWII GI style post and aperture. Adjustable. Great sight picture, very intuitive and easy to use. And for real fun you can put an ultimak scout mount on it and throw an aimpoint on it. Thats how mine is set up, probably the most fun gun I have.

Finally, it looks pretty harmless. It has a wood stock. Its small, kinda looks like it might be a .22. If you ever get hauled in front of a jury for shooting a burgler, I'd rather have them see that than a tacticool'd out AR15, or god forbid a Draco Pistol. An ignorant CA jury would probably poop their pants if they saw the DA pull out a Draco. Just one more thing to consider.

So.. theres my vote! Good hunting. Speaking of which... you can also hunt with an M1 Carbine for light game like whitetail.

grommit666
10-18-2011, 12:29 PM
To the OP, I'm currently drooling over the RRA PDS pistol too. Though, I must admit, it's hard to justify when you can get a Kel-Tec PLR 16 for half the price. But it doesn't matter much for me since I'm unlikely to buy either anytime soon.

gun toting monkeyboy
10-18-2011, 12:36 PM
An AR pistol is about as close as you can get here. The M-1 Carbine isn't a bad choice for the roll either, but I would rather have a .223 than a M1 Carbine cartridge. Besides, if the bullet doesn't hit them with the AR pistol, the muzzle blast and fireball might. Deaf and on fire isn't much fun, I am sure.

ExtremeX
10-18-2011, 12:42 PM
To the OP, I'm currently drooling over the RRA PDS pistol too. Though, I must admit, it's hard to justify when you can get a Kel-Tec PLR 16 for half the price. But it doesn't matter much for me since I'm unlikely to buy either anytime soon.


I found a place that has the RRA pistol, I was going to try and check it out today. I don't know if I really want a piston system, since I don't mind the shorty buffer tubes on the DI system. Hopefully I don't get all excited and splurge buy it.

A part of me really wants something in a pistol caliber. I don't think the piston system is available in anything else other than 5.56 from RRA.

My main concern with the RRA Piston is that its a proprietary design (or is it?)... which is why I like the DI system.

The price of anything AR can be a major bummer for a novelty item... I might have to skip this all together since its just not practical with a bullet button on it either. Money might be better spent getting a FiveSeven or a Glock 20 in 10mm.

chead
10-18-2011, 1:18 PM
Those RRA PDR carbines are awesome too. Pin the stock or get a long muzzle device and you're gtg.

Colt-45
10-18-2011, 1:20 PM
Get an AR pistol. You won't regret it :D

chead
10-18-2011, 1:24 PM
I know there are CA-legal FN PS90s out there, but that's more like rifle than PDW, I suppose.

I've had one, and I loved it, but it's not short or light. On the other hand the 5.7 is a great PDW round.

Nathan Krynn
10-18-2011, 1:33 PM
I would get an AR-pistol. Even in a 7.5" barrel 5.56 seems like a better round then 9mm or 40 cal, but that might just be me.

Also the PWS CQB comp does amazing things to muzzle flash.

Inquirer
10-18-2011, 1:47 PM
If Tacticool is your thing, here's this version:
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y317/bawlaaaa/Guns05.jpg Cali legal with a bullet button.

OP - can you give us a rundown of what you want it for? If it's SHTF, you could always buy a Glock 20, an Airsoft version of a Glock 20, and one of these (http://www.caatactical.com/viewproduct.asp?id=267), and keep it on your airsoft replica until the laws no longer apply.

Of course, I am not seriously suggesting this. This is more what not to do.

If you're looking for something to keep in your house, under the bed, then use a shotgun or, better yet, a pistol. Having heard how loud an AR-15 is and read how much material they'll shoot straight through, I have no desire to shoot one in my house.

If you're looking for something to keep in your car for when zombies take over so you'll be able to effortlessly transition from guy-doing-his-business-around-town to I'll-kill-anything-within-100-yards, see the first example, or an AR-15 pistol or virtually any other AOW. Whichever one fits your grip better, I'd say. But from what I've read, 7.62 performs better than 5.56 out of a pistol barrel, and it's cheaper to train on.

--Inq

gun toting monkeyboy
10-18-2011, 1:48 PM
If you are going through all of the trouble of getting an AR pistol, why would you then turn around and use a pistol caliber? Why not just get a glock in that case?

Nathan Krynn
10-18-2011, 1:51 PM
If Tacticool is your thing, here's this version:
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y317/bawlaaaa/Guns05.jpg Cali legal with a bullet button.

OP - can you give us a rundown of what you want it for? If it's SHTF, you could always buy a Glock 20, an Airsoft version of a Glock 20, and one of these (http://www.caatactical.com/viewproduct.asp?id=267),

If you're looking for something to keep in your house, under the bed, then use a shotgun or, better yet, a pistol. Having heard how loud an AR-15 is and read how much material they'll shoot straight through, I have no desire to shoot one in my house.

If you're looking for something to keep in your car for when zombies take over so you'll be able to effortlessly transition from guy-doing-his-business-around-town to I'll-kill-anything-within-100-yards, see the first example, or an AR-15 pistol or virtually any other AOW. Whichever one fits your grip better, I'd say. But from what I've read, 7.62 performs better than 5.56 out of a pistol barrel, and it's cheaper to train on.

--Inq

Yeah 7.62x39 does out perform 5.56 in short barrels.

However a pistol round goes through much more material then 5.56 as the 5.56 tends to break apart and deflect.

Inquirer
10-18-2011, 1:55 PM
If you are going through all of the trouble of getting an AR pistol, why would you then turn around and use a pistol caliber? Why not just get a glock in that case?

Yeah, this route has never made much sense to me.

Nathan Krynn
10-18-2011, 2:13 PM
RRichie09 and Inquirer bring excellent points though.

like I all ways ask the customer who walks into my office asking for me to build a rifle "what do you want the rifle to do for you" and work from that.

Like if you had all AK's and a ton of ammo and wanted ammo uniformity but a smaller package an AK pistol would suit your needs great. Same if it was AR-15's and 5.56. Really the same for pistol calibers but you wanted a longer barrel. However the pistol cal's don't really suit the bill in this case but if you wanted a 16" barrel to increase the leathalness of the 9mm for instance but you want a pistol so you really are gaining what 2-3" barrel.

whytea
10-18-2011, 5:18 PM
If it's SHTF, you could always buy a Glock 20, an Airsoft version of a Glock 20, and one of these (http://www.caatactical.com/viewproduct.asp?id=267), and keep it on your airsoft replica until the laws no longer apply.

Not to be flippant or anything, but here goes;

WTF is the point in this thing? So you can have a stock? It does nothing to increase barrel length, so there's no velocity increase or anything useful. Am I missing something?

jokat989
10-18-2011, 6:27 PM
the best pdw in existance-
118987

ExtremeX
10-18-2011, 6:29 PM
the best pdw in existance-
118987

Already have one... need something cooler now.

Lagduf
10-18-2011, 7:01 PM
Does anyone know if RRA is ever going to sell their PDW upper by itself? I don't want the whole gun - I just want the upper receiver group.

the best pdw in existance-
118987

Make it an AOW with a shorter barrel and mag tube and then I'll call it a PDW :D

Inquirer
10-18-2011, 7:11 PM
Not to be flippant or anything, but here goes;

WTF is the point in this thing? So you can have a stock? It does nothing to increase barrel length, so there's no velocity increase or anything useful. Am I missing something?

No offense taken. Shortcomings of a pistol:
-You can't stabilize it against your shoulder
-You can't put a foregrip on it
-You can't handle it like an SMG, or put a scope/lights/BUIS on it

With the RONI you can do all of that, and it's got space for a spare magazine. Basically converts your pistol into an SMG.

--Inq

MrPlink
10-18-2011, 7:38 PM
No offense taken. Shortcomings of a pistol:

-You can't handle it like an SMG, or put a scope/lights/BUIS on it




Go to the pistol pic forum.
Tons of handguns with lights, lasers, reflex sights etc etc etc

Shoulder stock is really the only big advantage of that kit IMO

Big D
10-18-2011, 8:27 PM
Masterpiece arms MPA series are pretty cool. The Kel tec RMR-30 is supposed to come out sometime soon, And it's rimfire so it's not an assault weapon

Haplo
10-18-2011, 9:55 PM
6.8 works great out of an 8" barrel.

bighead
10-18-2011, 10:46 PM
I thought a draco with a vfg was no bueno?

Lagduf
10-18-2011, 10:50 PM
I thought a draco with a vfg was no bueno?

You would have to register it as an AOW (Any Other Weapon.)

Anyone know what the OAL of a Draco is? Somewhere around 22" - ?