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DavidR310
10-15-2011, 11:06 PM
Learn from the past.

Cowboys used the same caliber in their rifle/side arm combo.

So during camping/survival/SHTF, I think this is a logical choice to do the same. However, using an outdated caliber like .45 colt would not make sense.

Disclaimer: This would just be survival/camping/GOOD/Bug out Gun. Once I get to my BOL, WATCH OUT! I'm using the AR10!

I would chose from something like the list below:

9MM
.40 S&W
.45ACP
10MM
.357
.44

Some examples:

MP5 & Glock 20 in 10MM
http://www.gunslot.com/files/gunslot/images/74959.jpg
http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/4971aJfCDWIlTybJwtaEiUx7l1LfgbNTM8Y4pQdfLoxGQGUhdT 4mQ2WxoFVAFfKb7bE_Vj1wH8gAq_wc7QWLDzGi_hq6z0_wtcZf dzg9U-Db1sPTlNn66JkfW5QG3wTGywsAEWLL2o6e2mDYbeesyBq3lkkG VLopXwg5GTEXiGNR

KRISS Vector and Kimber Custom 1911 in .45acp
http://www.kriss-tdi.com/images/stories/tech_01.PNG
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/hot-zone/39883d1203290886-new-toy-kimber-custom-ii-06_10_03.jpg

M1 Garand/Carbine and Taurus Raging Thirty in .30
http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/arsenal-1104-2.jpg
http://fe.img.v4.skyrock.net/fe6/handgun/pics/2449423667_small_1.jpg

What would you choose?

POLICESTATE
10-15-2011, 11:31 PM
I'm going with .45 and 9mm in pistols, and .223 for rifle. Also a .22 rifle. Lots of ammo, will do fine. If I need more guns/ammo I can always trade or take them from dead bad guys :43:

If I was to use a unified caliber I'd probably go with 9mm, not a great many .45acp rifles/carbines spring to mind. Well not many I would consider using at any rate :P

Futurecollector
10-15-2011, 11:59 PM
.357 revolver, .357 lever action...

DavidR310
10-16-2011, 12:41 AM
If I was to use a unified caliber I'd probably go with 9mm, not a great many .45acp rifles/carbines spring to mind. Well not many I would consider using at any rate :P

AR15 and a XD9 in 9MM?
http://a1.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/42/64d2e0e998b15a3b960a00e77c685896/l.jpg
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/VLR4/XD1012.jpg

DavidR310
10-16-2011, 12:52 AM
.357 revolver, .357 lever action...

Something like...



http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2006/Day2/DSC07764.jpg
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b013480973e2c970c-800wi

r3dn3ck
10-16-2011, 6:19 AM
super redhawk and a rossi .44mag lever rifle. Enough for anything from dik dik to dinosaurs.

Diesel-Gunner
10-16-2011, 7:38 AM
As much as I love my .30 carbine, if SHTF I dont how much of it will be laying around. a 9mm or .45 would be more plentiful

Maddog5150
10-16-2011, 8:48 AM
M1 Garand[/size/Carbine and Taurus Raging Thirty in .30
http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/arsenal-1104-2.jpg
http://fe.img.v4.skyrock.net/fe6/handgun/pics/2449423667_small_1.jpg

[SIZE="4"]What would you choose?

Huh? :confused:
I dont think that garand is going to shoot the same ammo as that turdus there buddy

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2011, 9:15 AM
That Kriss would be better served with a Glock 21 as they use the same magazines as well as the same ammo.

This would be the perfect combo for SHTF CQB type weapons.

If you're going to go for distance/carbine the only option is to go five-seven with the PS90 and USG/IOM pistol. And even then, you're only talking 2-300 yards max.

I'd personally rather have my M1 scout on a sling and Glock 21 on my side.

sholling
10-16-2011, 9:48 AM
Learn from the past.

Cowboys used the same caliber in their rifle/side arm combo.
In the olden days cowboys used pistol caliber rifles because they were the only chamberings available in repeating rifles. The technology just wasn't advanced enough to hold up to better/more powerful cartridges. They also determined that the firepower of a moderately powerful repeating rifle was more useful in a one vs many fight than the very hard hitting but single shot 45-70 used by the army. Note that neither had much reach. Even the much later 30-30 has limited range due the the flat nosed bullet necessary for a tube fed magazine.

I'll stay with box magazine fed rifle caliper rifles and magazine fed pistol caliper pistols but to each their own.

smle-man
10-16-2011, 9:52 AM
I'll probably miss the whole collapse and follow on anarchy because I won't be able to choose my tactical ensemble from all the possiblities. When I finally rush outside properly dressed, kitted, and armed everything will be back to normal and the police will arrest me for LOC.

thunderbolt
10-16-2011, 10:09 AM
I used to think the FN 5.7x28 was a good choice for the rifle/pistol combo and maybe it does have it's merits but the round lacked enough umph for my taste. Maybe I'm wrong. The concept is solid though and it would be easier to only worry about one round type when everything has gone to crud.

CSACANNONEER
10-16-2011, 10:18 AM
Cowboys always used the same caliber rifle and pistol? I don't think that there is any historical documentation to prove or even indicate this. If there was, the very popular 30-30 cartridge would not have sold well. The simple FACT is that some may have done so but, most did/do not.

That said, if I was to go with a rifle pistol combo, I'd want a pistol caliber that I could shoot easily in a handgun and the ability to effectively shoot past 100 yards using it in a rifle. The outdate .45 Colt, would make about as good a choice or better as the other old cartridges (9mm, .45acp and .38/.357 were all around during the cowboy haydays) you seem to think are not outdated. But, if I had to choice a cartridge, I'd go with a .44-40 over all the straight walled cartridges you listed.

IntoForever
10-16-2011, 10:25 AM
Is this list comprised of firearms we already own?

CSACANNONEER
10-16-2011, 10:29 AM
In the olden days cowboys used pistol caliber rifles because they were the only chamberings available in repeating rifles.

That's funny. I thought that the first repeating rifles used rounds that were specifically designed for them? Also, when refering to the olden days of cowboys, I tend to think post War of Northern Agression up through the end of The Great War. So, many rifle cartridges like 30-30, 35 Remington, etc. were in wide use by cowboys then. Finally, the technology for propellants was probably the most limited factor until smokeless powders were developed.

mjmagee67
10-16-2011, 11:20 AM
.357 revolver, .357 lever action...
Bingo Marlin 1894 38/357 & S&W 65-2 w/4-inch barrel.

sholling
10-16-2011, 12:22 PM
That's funny. I thought that the first repeating rifles used rounds that were specifically designed for them? Also, when refering to the olden days of cowboys, I tend to think post War of Northern Agression up through the end of The Great War. So, many rifle cartridges like 30-30, 35 Remington, etc. were in wide use by cowboys then. Finally, the technology for propellants was probably the most limited factor until smokeless powders were developed.

I guess it depends on what you consider the "cowboy period". I tend to think of it as between the Mexican-American War and the 1845 annexation of Texas and what became the western states and 1900. The Volcanic Rifle came out in 1853 and was made .22RF, .31 and .41 calibers. The original Henry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_rifle) was in .44 Henry Rimfire. The Winchester 1866 came out in .44 Henry Rimfire, the 1873 had the much better 44-40 and 38-40, and it wasn't until the 1894 rifle (1895 for the ammo) that the 30-30 was introduced - well after the days of Indian fighting and a bit expensive for target practice. The heyday of needing a rifle to defend the ranch or herd from angry Native-Americans was well over by 1895.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_rifle)
Winchester Model 1894
Main article: Winchester Model 1894
Winchester Model 1894

The John Browning designed Winchester Model 1894 is perhaps the best known of the Winchester repeating rifles. The Model 94 was chambered for the newly introduced smokeless .30-30 Winchester cartridge, and later, a variety of calibers such as .25-35 WCF, .32-40 WCF, .32 Winchester Special, and the .38-55. Winchester was the first company to manufacture a civilian rifle chambered for the new smokeless propellants, and although delays prevented the .30-30 cartridge from appearing on the shelves until 1895, it remained the first commercially available smokeless powder round for the North American consumer market. Though initially it was too expensive for most shooters, the Model 1894 went on to become one of the best-selling hunting rifles of all time

The Spencers 56-56 was supposed to be a bit more powerful than the Henry's 44 Henry Rimfire but I don't really think of them as "cowboy rifles".

smle-man
10-16-2011, 2:01 PM
The Winchester 76 and 86 both chambered some pretty potent rifle cartridges such as .40-60, .45-75, .45-70 and .45-90 and later the .33 Winchester in the '86. Users in the 70s to 90s weren't restricted to handgun only calibers in repeating arms.

Manolito
10-16-2011, 2:23 PM
I am going with the 22mag. The reason is amount of ammo I can carry. Every survival course I have taken through the military and private stress the point of how much ammunition can you carry. Weigh out a 20 round box of your favorite rifle ammunition and then weigh how many 22 mag rounds you can carry for the same weight.
Just my opinion.
Bill

Joewy
10-16-2011, 2:36 PM
I am going with the 22mag. The reason is amount of ammo I can carry. Every survival course I have taken through the military and private stress the point of how much ammunition can you carry. Weigh out a 20 round box of your favorite rifle ammunition and then weigh how many 22 mag rounds you can carry for the same weight.
Just my opinion.
Bill

I like 22 mag but it is not that much better than any handgun round. I have a revolver and a 10/22 chambered for it.

You really need both a good handgun round and a good rifle round. They are not really interchangable.

The handgun round is for personal protection and the rifle round is for force projection.

Most any SHTF situation would entail having to fight with others. If you are outclassed, you will die.


FWIW.
If you are really serious, you would get a 338 win mag BAR and a 9mm revolver. You carry 9mm home made lead bullets, primers and powder. Just use a sizer to shave down the bullet for the 338. Lead is easy to find along with the makings of black powder.

Got Stuff?
10-16-2011, 4:37 PM
Having a firearm(s) that could shoot any ammo that you were able to "acquire" after shtf would probably be the best option?

scarville
10-16-2011, 4:50 PM
The handgun and carbine in the same caliber may be a good choice for flexibility. In a SHTF bug out or INCH scenario I am unlikely to be toting a golf cart full of rifles that I can pick and choose from depending on circumstances. Much more probable is that I will have one long gun and one primary handgun with a BUG in my pocket. In such a case, no matter what combinations I contemplate, it is possible to construct a plausible scenario where my choices will be less than optimal. That is a given.

My chronograph indicates that 9mm (from a PC-9) and 45 ACP (JR Carbine) do not gain much from the longer barrel. Ten to twelve percent in velocity. The 357 and 44 magnums both gain 40% to 50% in muzzle velocity from an 18.5" Marlin compared to a 4" or 6" revolver. Even the lowly 38 spl will jump 25% to 30% going from the revolver to a carbine.

Coincidentally, I came across this on Wednesday.
From: http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/31ec38bdd3ca531a618f4419a4574d35-915.html

In response to my recent paean to the lever action rifle, Ed Harris sent some of his thoughts. As always, interesting reading from one of the most knowledgable guys in the shooting world:
----------
If I had to “bug out,” riding my mountain bike around EMP-killed vehicles, getting out of Doge carrying only what I could in my ruck and pockets to get beyond the moderate damage radius before the fallout starting coming down, a lever-gun and revolver combo isn’t the world’s worst choice.

I have no plans to stand and fight off the whole world. If you attempt that by yourself, in the words of the late clandestine operator, Harry Archer, who ventured in dangerous climes on behalf of our country and lived to retire and die peacefully in front of his TV, “you’ll never live to shoot-‘em all.”

I just want to protect myself and my gear, put time, distance and shielding between me and any threat, escape, evade, “shoot and SCOOT” if needed, put meat in the pot and get the job done.

A compact, sturdy, fixed sight, double-action .357 revolver such as the Ruger SP101 is an affordable compromise. It is simple for anyone in the family to use. It is accurate enough within 25 yards, “hell for strong,” rugged, highly portable and has impressive ballistics for personal defense. It can use either .357 Magnums or lower powered .38 Special ammo.

Round out the package with a Marlin 1894C carbine in .357 Magnum. It offers adequate combat accuracy for “short range” (less than 200 yards in the infantry sense) and ten rounds magazine capacity. The magazine tube can be topped off without taking the gun out of action. Rapidity of fire is good. It is a natural pointer. The carbine is light in the hand, quick to the shoulder and fast to the first shot and follow-ups come easily. Teamed with a sturdy, concealable revolver, the combo is hard to beat.

The sad truth is that back East it is difficult to find someplace to practice with a military caliber assault rifle. Sure you can get a .22 LR upper for your AR, but it just isn't the same. Most indoor ranges will let you fire any rifle chambered for handgun ammo, so my most-used center-fire rifle these days is my Marlin 1894C carbine in .357 Magnum.

A .357 lever action is manageable by females and youngsters. It has low recoil and is fairly quiet when used with standard velocity lead .38 Special ammo. It is a fun camp gun which works great for small game, feral dogs and groundhogs. When firing .38 Special standard velocity (non +P) lead bullet ammo from a rifle, velocity remains subsonic, producing a mild report little louder than a .22, which has advantages for discreet garden varminting.

Its potential for home defense with .357 ammunition, is nothing to sneeze at. A .357 levergun with proper ammunition is fully adequate for deer within 100 yards and with peep sights is more accurate on silhouette targets out to 200 yards than your average AK. But leverguns are familiar and nonthreatening in appearance, so they "don't scare the natives" as a "black rifle" often does.

The Marlin lever-gun requires better sights, but you can install these yourself. The most rugged iron sights are the XS ghost ring peep. If cost-conscious stop right there and you will have a good outfit. If you have trouble seeing iron sights well, or want to improve your longer range and low light performance, add a XS Lever-Scout rail. This accepts a variety of quick detachable optics, such as a hunting scope or military reflex sight, leaving the peep sights available for backup.

New leverguns cost less than "black rifles." Use the money you save to buy a Dillon RL550B to load your ammo! Used .357 lever-guns sell for about 60% in stores of what a similar rifle would cost new. In most places the Marlin 1894C .357 Microgroove rifles sell for about $100 or more less than a similar used "Cowboy" model with Ballard rifling, because people think that "Microgrooves won't shoot lead."

In my experience of over 25 years, the 1894C with Microgroove rifling shoots lead bullets just fine, as long as you stick to standard pressure or ordinary +P .38 Specials at subsonic velocities.

Microgroove barrels handle jacketed bullet .357 Magnum loads best. The 158-gr. soft-point is what you want to use for deer from the rifle. The 125-grain JHPs are best for personal defense from the revolver, or for varmint use in the rifle. Jacketed bullet .357 magnum rounds are expensive. You will actually need and use very few of them, so just buy a several boxes of factory loads for contingencies.

Standard velocity .38 Special, 158-grain lead semi-wadcutters are the basic utility load for both rifle and revolver. This is what you want to set up your RL550B to assemble in quantity. Bulk Remington .358 diameter 158-grain semi-wadcutters assembled in .38 Special brass with 3.5 grains of Bullseye approximate the velocity, accuracy and energy of factory standard velocity loads. Velocity is about 750 f.p.s. from a 3 inch revolver, and 950 f.p.s. from an 18 inch carbine. Ordinary lead plinking loads shoot into 4 inches at 100 yards from the Marlin. Jacketed soft-point .357 magnums shave an inch off of that. If you buy powder and primers in bulk, component cost to reload free gleaned brass that you have saved with a plinking load is about 10 cents per pop. If you cast your own bullets from free scrounged scrap lead you will save a nickel. Jacketed bullets cost 15 cents each. Instead buy a good quality 4-cavity bullet mold such as Saeco #358. Buy only a few boxes of full up magnum factory loads for serious hunting and conserve them.

My “Cowboy assault rifle” has a Trijicon Reflex II sight Model RX09 with A.R.M.S. #15 Throw Lever Mount fitted into an XS Systems Lever Scout rail. XS mounts are dimensioned to accept Weaver bases. Fitting the military M1915 rail base requires that you to determine which cross-slot you will locate your optic onto. You want the optical sight at the balance point of the rifle.

After you have located the proper cross slot to position your sight, adjust the slot width and depth with a square Swiss needle file to enable the mounting clamp crossbar to press-fit snugly into it. Retract the thumb clamps and slide the A.R.M.S. mount over the front of the rail. The rear mount clamp tightens against the angled sides of the rail only. You want no “slop” after you have fitted the crossbar slot depth and corners.

After fitting, the A.R.M.S. #15 thumb-lever mount offers quick-disconnect with perfect return to zero. I can use the tritium illuminated, no batteries required ever, combat optic or backup ghost ring peeps at will. I zero 158-grain .357 magnum loads to coincide with the pointed top of the Tritium-illuminated chevron at 100 yards. Standard velocity .38s hit "on" at 50 yards. Holding the legs of the chevron tangent to the top of a 12-inch gong at 200 yards I can hit with magnums every time. Placing the chevron across the shoulders of an Army E silhouette I make repeat hits out to at 300 if I do my part.

Maybe I shouldn't have watched, "The Road" again...
----------

Corbin Dallas
10-16-2011, 7:10 PM
I'll stay with box magazine fed rifle caliper rifles and magazine fed pistol caliper pistols but to each their own.


I realize this is anal, but it's spelled Caliber not Caliper...

Your arguement about what you should carry becomes moot when you cannot spell what you're talking about.

Just a friendly FYI...



:D

bob7122
10-16-2011, 7:22 PM
.44 mag lever action, desert eagle :p

or .44 mag lever action, .44 mag ruger

Dark Mod
10-16-2011, 7:56 PM
Whats the point of owning a rifle chambered in a handgun caliber if your not going to get rifle range/velocity? If all your getting out of the rifle is an extra 200 fps or so then just chuck the extra weight and keep your handgun. ideal cowboy setup for me would be a 30-30 lever gun for long range and a 45 colt in a modern double action revolver

Lone_Gunman
10-16-2011, 9:05 PM
M1 Garand/Carbine and Taurus Raging Thirty in .30
http://www.policemag.com/_Images/articles/arsenal-1104-2.jpg
http://fe.img.v4.skyrock.net/fe6/handgun/pics/2449423667_small_1.jpg

What would you choose?

Huh? :confused:
I dont think that garand is going to shoot the same ammo as that turdus there buddy

That is neither a Garand or a M1 Carbine. It's an M14 style semi auto, most likely a Springfield Armory M1A, but it could be an LRB, Smith Enterprise, Armscorp, or 7.62 Firearms build.


The M1 Carbine is chambered in .30 Carbine, the Garand in 30-06, the M14 in 7.62 NATO.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2034/2457102497_81fd86ee1c.jpg

KevinB
10-16-2011, 9:28 PM
Cowboys, and the like were not stupid. They bought guns they could get ammo for almost everywhere. Unreliable guns and ammo were not bought.

Like us, they bought stuff that they knew worked and they could find easily.

--------kevin---------

JJ682
10-16-2011, 11:16 PM
If you're going to combo a pistol/carbine you might as well use a carbine that accepts the magazines from your pistol!
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/civil/civ006/ruger_pc9-1.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/handguns/usa/2/1287744704.jpg

DavidR310
10-17-2011, 1:51 AM
Is this list comprised of firearms we already own?

By all means no, this would be in your mind, the most ideal. If you already own them, then your one step ahead.


If you're going to combo a pistol/carbine you might as well use a carbine that accepts the magazines from your pistol!


This would be a bonus!:)

Huh?
I dont think that garand is going to shoot the same ammo as that turdus there buddy

I was trying to find some pics to help the thread and couldn't find a nice M1 Carbine pic and yes that looks more like an M14.

BUT, the Raging Thirty made by Turdus (http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=186&category=Pistol)lol, that is currently discontinued.


http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/30CSS10.jpg


"The Raging Thirty comes .30 Caliber and makes use of the Taurus Stellar Clip to load this venerable rifle round."

ns3v3n
10-17-2011, 8:27 AM
Ak and a draco?

scarville
10-17-2011, 9:04 AM
Whats the point of owning a rifle chambered in a handgun caliber if your not going to get rifle range/velocity? If all your getting out of the rifle is an extra 200 fps or so then just chuck the extra weight and keep your handgun. ideal cowboy setup for me would be a 30-30 lever gun for long range and a 45 colt in a modern double action revolver
If you are talking about 9mm or 45 ACP then I agree there is limited utility. The gains in those calibers is not much of a benefit in a rifle and I would only consider them for specialized long arm applications like a submachine gun. Maybe a light defense carbine for younger or weaker member of the tribe.

The 357 and 44 magnums do gain considerable velocity in longer barrels. My own measurements and the data from Ballistics by the Inch indicate 40% to 50% is typical going from a handgun to a carbine. For example, the American Eagle 158 gr JSP clocks about 1200 fps from my 686 and about 1750 fps from my Marlin. That is a gain of 45% in velocity and 112% in energy. Another consideration is that most magnum handgun cartridges reach maximum velocity at about 16" barrel length so an 18.5" barrel could be shortened by 2" without giving up any ballistics.

bill_k_lopez
10-17-2011, 4:21 PM
One question - is a person any more dead with one caliber over the other?

Guess all that really matters is "can you hit what your shootin at"?

cqbdude
10-17-2011, 4:28 PM
You mean like this??


First up is the Winchester 94 Trapper Model in .44 magnum


http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL704/13337202/23747830/395958511.jpg

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL704/13337202/23747830/395958523.jpg

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL704/13337202/23747830/395958525.jpg
Here it is paired up to a S&W Model 29

Joewy
10-17-2011, 4:42 PM
You guys still miss the point.
A handgun bullet must weigh a lot and a rifle bullet weigh a little. Velocity out the barrel no matter what length will diminish quite rapidly with a heavy bullet.
If both guns can hit the same target at the same range then whats the use of 2 guns?

Ripon83
10-17-2011, 4:51 PM
I'm glad to have the 357 combo revolver and lever, but its not my ideal SHTF use. It might be my wifes or my last. I get the cow boy comparison but they weren't living SHTF and in that situation the more calibers available to you the more ammo and the more opportunity the better. I need a decent .308 AR variation for my package - don't have that yet - but I have the main stream calibers otherwise and a few outcasts likely for barter (sks types).

It would be interesting to carry different loads for the .357 for the rifle and pistol. But would that not defeat the purpose of a single caliber weapon?

cqbdude
10-17-2011, 4:57 PM
or this??

Now the Marlin Trapper in .357 magnum

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL704/13337202/23747830/395958582.jpg

http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL704/13337202/23747830/395958580.jpg

The Marlin is paired up with a Ruger GP100 .

DavidR310
10-17-2011, 5:22 PM
I'm glad to have the 357 combo revolver and lever, but its not my ideal SHTF use. It might be my wifes or my last. I get the cow boy comparison but they weren't living SHTF and in that situation the more calibers available to you the more ammo and the more opportunity the better. I need a decent .308 AR variation for my package - don't have that yet - but I have the main stream calibers otherwise and a few outcasts likely for barter (sks types).

It would be interesting to carry different loads for the .357 for the rifle and pistol. But would that not defeat the purpose of a single caliber weapon?

I actually am a big fan of having a full size caliber and an AR10 build is in the works for me. However, I view that as more a bug in weapon or in my plan a weapon that would already be stored at my BOL.

I am thinking if I have to bug out on vehicle/foot/bike/horse....that a loadout in the .357/.44 is looking very ideal. Plus you have the option of using the .38/.44 special if need be.

pacifico23
10-17-2011, 5:35 PM
If I had to take a two item combo. It would be a .22 pistol and a 10/22. More ammo the better IMO. Humans used to stalk prey for days to tire them out. I will just shoot it as many times as possible. Humane or not it's a shtf and survival situation.

But personally Ide go for the ar with a .22 bolt conversion in my bag. And then a 9mm pistol.

murphf21
10-17-2011, 5:36 PM
agreed that using a handgun round in a long arm is not ideal, however there is data out there suggesting that mangum handgun cartridges are very efficient in longarms. I did gelatin tests with Dr. Fackler in the early 90s that not only confirmed other velocity studies (federal 125 grain JHP 357 round at 1400 or so out of 4" smith clocked around 2150 in 18.5 inch marlin & win silvertip doing 1300 from 6" smith clocked 1800 out of 20 inch browning m-92) but with the right bullet the carbine showed potential greater than suggested by the velocity. that being said the federal 125 of the day didn't hold up at 2150, so tougher projectiles are needed to hold up to significant increase in velocity. we also noted minimal muzzle flash with both carbines. in ordr to optimize performance one ends up with different loads/projectiles (slow powders and tough bullets for carbine will not be optimum for performance in short barrel) for 4" and 18" barrels, but it is the versitility and ability to use a common round that appeals to somebody on foot (or riding a horse or a motorcycle) that appeals to potential users.

one should also be aware that some common revolver loadings do not feed well in lever action carbines so some experimentation and thought is required to make this work. I understand that the design of the WCF cartridges includes a bottleneck for a reason, but that same design does require more thought/experience in reloading. at least one tactical trainer of which I am aware offers a lever action carbine tactical course for those choosing to use a less than modern/optimal platform that they can afford or that they believe will be less controversial in appearance.

by way of experience on game, my family took 5 bears over a 20 year period in northern california (just below oregon border) ranging from 250 lbs to an honest 572 out of spring hybernation with a ruger 44 carbine that was very effective.

DavidR310
10-17-2011, 6:38 PM
Thanks for all the ideas/input everyone, you guys are awesome.

In my mind, I am leaning to a .357 Mag choice.

I would feel very well armed and in no way outgunned with this choice:

Rifle: .357 Mag lever action with optics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/hkuspelite45/GT/3de5e178.jpg

Sidearm: S&W M&P R8
http://www.first-jp.com/item-images/items/IT_0303TNK00153.JPG

BUG: S&W M&P 340CT or Ruger LCR357
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/images/firearms/detail_md/163073_01_md.jpg
http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/images/5450.jpg

Ripon83
10-17-2011, 8:06 PM
A tube fed 22LR semi and 22LR revolver like the new GP Ruger would be a nice combo. Plenty of ammo, no mags, but no serious defensive power.

By the way an option for the 38/357 combo might be that hand reloading kit. You can save brass, and if you can store components at a bug out location you can double / triple your ammo capacity.

11HE9
10-17-2011, 9:31 PM
I'm going with .45 and 9mm in pistols, and .223 for rifle. Also a .22 rifle. Lots of ammo, will do fine. If I need more guns/ammo I can always trade or take them from dead bad guys

This ^^^

slick_711
10-17-2011, 9:47 PM
.357 revolver, .357 lever action...

/thread

I'll stick to my 12.5" AR and a 1911. Sharing ammo between firearms is a nice idea but it is far less important than having the right gun for the job.

Saym14
10-17-2011, 10:11 PM
/thread

I'll stick to my 12.5" AR and a 1911. Sharing ammo between firearms is a nice idea but it is far less important than having the right gun for the job.

agreed! ^

to the OP, I disagree with your premise. if you have a rifle it should have a rifle calber, not a wimpy pistol caliber. if I have to choose by your rules I would get a pistol and rifle combo in 223/5.56 caliber.

Cali-Shooter
10-17-2011, 10:42 PM
There seriously needs to be a 5.56 pistol that isn't an AR pistol or single shot or a Kel-Tec PLR.

I at one point had a Glock 22c + Ruger PC-4 combo (.40 S&W both of them), but the carbine had to go, and it was a major bummer to not be able to use Glock mags with the carbine.

No more "cowboy" rifle + pistol combos so far for me, it'll just have to be 5.56 or 7.62 and .40 or .45.

DavidR310
10-18-2011, 1:28 AM
agreed! ^

to the OP, I disagree with your premise. if you have a rifle it should have a rifle calber, not a wimpy pistol caliber. if I have to choose by your rules I would get a pistol and rifle combo in 223/5.56 caliber.

Wow, I never heard someone say the .357 Magnum was a wimpy pistol caliber. I have heard people say 223/556 was a wimpy rifle round. lol

Joewy
10-18-2011, 6:30 AM
Wow, I never heard someone say the .357 Magnum was a wimpy pistol caliber. I have heard people say 223/556 was a wimpy rifle round. lol

Do a test.
Place a 6x6 piece of wood on the ground at 100 yards. Shoot at at with a 357magnum model 94 or something like that. It will penetrate about an inch. Then try the wimmpy 223. It will go right thru the 6x6
Which would you rather have?

I had a custom made 223 revolver at one time. Its not something that is useful. You need at least a 10 inch barrel and that makes it too clunky to use in a fight. Might as well have the rifle. The revolver was too hard to control and had a 2 ft long flame come out of it every time you fired it. If you had to fire it at night everyone would know where you were and you would be flash blinded.
Cool gun but not useful.

DavidR310
10-18-2011, 6:48 AM
Do a test.
Place a 6x6 piece of wood on the ground at 100 yards. Shoot at at with a 357magnum model 94 or something like that. It will penetrate about an inch. Then try the wimmpy 223. It will go right thru the 6x6
Which would you rather have?

I had a custom made 223 revolver at one time. Its not something that is useful. You need at least a 10 inch barrel and that makes it too clunky to use in a fight. Might as well have the rifle. The revolver was too hard to control and had a 2 ft long flame come out of it every time you fired it. If you had to fire it at night everyone would know where you were and you would be flash blinded.
Cool gun but not useful.

Are you using FMJ to FMJ or FMJ to JHP?

Sanderhawk
10-18-2011, 6:49 AM
I have an XD40 and I plan on getting a Hi Point 40 carbine here soon.

whytea
10-18-2011, 7:13 AM
Do a test.
Place a 6x6 piece of wood on the ground at 100 yards. Shoot at at with a 357magnum model 94 or something like that. It will penetrate about an inch. Then try the wimmpy 223. It will go right thru the 6x6
Which would you rather have?

I guess it depends on whether or not I'm being attacked by roving bands of 6x6 pieces of wood. :)

Each weapon is a tool for a specific task. LE and military carry multiple calibers for a reason; Each on is better at it's job.

The best weapons to have are ones that you are trained in using. Caliber pros and cons can be (and have been) argued till you're blue in the face.

Personally, that's the reason I have a wide array of ammunition, weapons and calibers, both in handguns and rifles. That way I have a better chance of having a weapon that will take whatever ammo I scrounge up. That, and the fact that I'm a gun whore.

Kid Stanislaus
10-18-2011, 8:15 AM
FAL has cut down one of their .308 semi-auto rifles to a pistol. Carry this boat anchor along with a .308 rifle and you'll be well armed, very tired, or tough as hell!!:D


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/01/29/ds-arms-new-fal-pistol-and-sbr/

Super Spy
10-18-2011, 9:03 AM
I reload and am planning on picking up Cowboy guns in 45 Colt, both 45 Colt and 45 ACP shoot the same bullet (Brass is different, projectile is same OD) I'd probably carry a lever gun and revolver in 45 Colt, and carry my Glock 30 as my BUG. I'd prefer a rifle in 308 and my buy out pack will likely have a BLR Takedown in 308, this way I can carry a hard hitting long range round and have no one be the wiser. An AR breaks down to 2 pieces as well that stash in a backpack pretty handily.

Another possibility would be a an AR upper in 7.62 x 25 and a Tokarev pistol.....

Joewy
10-18-2011, 9:11 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not I'm being attacked by roving bands of 6x6 pieces of wood. :)

Each weapon is a tool for a specific task. LE and military carry multiple calibers for a reason; Each on is better at it's job.

The best weapons to have are ones that you are trained in using. Caliber pros and cons can be (and have been) argued till you're blue in the face.

Personally, that's the reason I have a wide array of ammunition, weapons and calibers, both in handguns and rifles. That way I have a better chance of having a weapon that will take whatever ammo I scrounge up. That, and the fact that I'm a gun whore.

I agree. Thats my point.

Joewy
10-18-2011, 9:21 AM
Are you using FMJ to FMJ or FMJ to JHP?

FMJ vs FMJ.

Another thing about handgun rounds. I know people who have been shot at from 20ft away and hit. The rounds hit something like a magazine or knife scabbard or pack. Knocked the guy down but did not penetrate.

Is that what you want when your life depends on it?

slick_711
10-18-2011, 9:35 AM
I know people who have been shot at from 20ft away and hit. The rounds hit something like a magazine or knife scabbard or pack. Knocked the guy down but did not penetrate.

Is that what you want when your life depends on it?

That depends, am I the shooter or the shootee? :confused: If the latter, yes. That is exactly what I want.

Fot
10-18-2011, 9:54 AM
Rifle: .357 Mag lever action with optics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/hkuspelite45/GT/3de5e178.jpg

Wow I enjoy tatical mall ninja guns as much as the next man, but that is ugly..

scarville
10-18-2011, 10:04 AM
I guess it depends on whether or not I'm being attacked by roving bands of 6x6 pieces of wood. :)
I think if someone thinks he will be spending his time post-SHTF shooting people it makes sense to pick a gun optimized for killing human beings.

scarville
10-18-2011, 10:15 AM
Thanks for all the ideas/input everyone, you guys are awesome.

In my mind, I am leaning to a .357 Mag choice.

I would feel very well armed and in no way outgunned with this choice:

Rifle: .357 Mag lever action with optics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/hkuspelite45/GT/3de5e178.jpg
That looks a Marlin 336 or an 1895. AFAIK neither was ever produced in 357 magnum. In fact it would, IMO, make a lousy 357 carbine. The 357's and 44's are usually built on the shorter Marlin 1894 or the Winchester (Browning) 1892 actions.

whytea
10-18-2011, 10:23 AM
I think if someone thinks he will be spending his time post-SHTF shooting people it makes sense to pick a gun optimized for killing human beings.

Exactly.

Kid Stanislaus
10-18-2011, 3:29 PM
I think if someone thinks he will be spending his time post-SHTF shooting people it makes sense to pick a gun optimized for killing human beings.

Thus my preference for thirty caliber rifles. The 5.56 is a jim dandy small to medium game round but when you MUST put down a perp and keep him down with the first shot there's nothing like a thirty caliber SP bullet clipping along in the 2500 to 3000 fps range. ;)

Kid Stanislaus
10-18-2011, 3:38 PM
Another thing about handgun rounds. I know people who have been shot at from 20ft away and hit. The rounds hit something like a magazine or knife scabbard or pack. Knocked the guy down but did not penetrate.

First of all, there's not a handgun on the planet that has "knockdown" power. The laws of physics just don't allow it. If somebody is hit with a handgun round and falls to the ground is it is because he FELL, he was not knocked down.

Secondly, we would all do well to remember that 80% of people shot by handguns survive. With that in view it does indeed make sense that one's handgun, in a serious SHTF situation, would be used to fight one's way to his long gun (I know, that's a cliche').

OffGrid
10-19-2011, 10:56 AM
Letís see, long gun and pistol in the same caliber.

So many good choices. I can go 44, 357?

No, I got it, butÖ Great! Now Iím gonna have to work up a quick draw holster for the AR pistol.

rp55
10-19-2011, 11:26 AM
I have a Rossi M1892 (no pics) coupled with the Ruger Blackhawk convertible below. I like the Buffalo Bore heavy .357 magnum 158 gr. JHP they advertise 2153 fps from a 18.5" barrel Marlin 1894 for. I bought the convertible so when I'm out of .357 I can just feed it 9mm. It has had no problems with either round.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j302/rpwhite55/guns/P7280003.jpg

DavidR310
10-19-2011, 2:42 PM
I like that!^

Benster
10-19-2011, 7:53 PM
Something like...



http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2006/Day2/DSC07764.jpg
http://warriortalknews.typepad.com/.a/6a0133ec985af6970b013480973e2c970c-800wi

yup this would be me too

cudakidd
10-19-2011, 8:19 PM
I shoot cowboy action shooting and am a history buff for the period. The idea of Cowboys having the two same calibers is just not true.


The bad boy caliber of the era, the 45 Colt was not offered in the Winchester rifles at the time. Colt and Winchester were competitiors after all. A Winchester would be more likely to be in .44-40, 38-40, etc.

And the little carbines are nice, I shoot them but for SHTF, my wife will using one of the .30 Carbines we have with that little invention, the 30 round magazine!! Her back up will be a .357

I will be using a 30-06 and a .357, different chores, different guns and calibers to do them...

KIDRR
10-20-2011, 1:14 AM
We are not in "cowboy" times anymore. If you actually do get into a fire fight you're going to want something with detachable mags and high capacity. Carrying around heavy 44mag ammo and guns on the move isn't going to be ideal, and either is trying to load them under pressure.

Stick with a common caliber like .556x45 for rifle and 9mm or maybe 45acp in the pistol.

Saym14
10-21-2011, 4:12 PM
There seriously needs to be a 5.56 pistol that isn't an AR pistol or single shot or a Kel-Tec PLR.

I at one point had a Glock 22c + Ruger PC-4 combo (.40 S&W both of them), but the carbine had to go, and it was a major bummer to not be able to use Glock mags with the carbine.

No more "cowboy" rifle + pistol combos so far for me, it'll just have to be 5.56 or 7.62 and .40 or .45.

have you seen the RRA piston pistol in 2.23? there is no buffer tube, its awesome I want one.

my SHTF combo is a 9 mm handgunn, a .223 rifle and 12 ga shotgun. each has its own job and also more imprtantly the calibers are the most common and availabe.

choprzrul
10-21-2011, 6:22 PM
How about a pair that shares the same magazines?

Sidearm:
http://www.gunaccessories.com/ExcaliburWoodGrips/s&w/xsw59.jpg


Long gun:
http://cdn.armslist.com/images/posts/634163600443723958nr2k4ikm.jpg


Long gun should be worth an extra 150fps from the 16" barrel. That gets a 9mm +P load over 1500fps:

http://www.saysuncle.com/images/9mm.gif


1 type of magazine makes this combo very attractive.

.

Cali-Shooter
10-21-2011, 10:08 PM
I just thought about another modern "Cowboy combo."

M1 carbine and Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk revolver.

DavidR310
10-21-2011, 11:33 PM
I just thought about another modern "Cowboy combo."

M1 carbine and Ruger .30 Carbine Blackhawk revolver.

interesting.....:shifty:

slick_711
10-21-2011, 11:59 PM
Stick with a common caliber like .556x45 for rifle and 9mm or maybe 45acp in the pistol.

.556 = common caliber?

You're doing it wrong.

have you seen the RRA piston pistol in 2.23? there is no buffer tube, its awesome I want one.

2.23? At least you're shooting something big, the guy above you has a rifle that shoots pencil lead. Also, useless trivia: the AR pistol w/o buffer tube is not a RRA design, and is not new.

:shrug:

Paltik
10-23-2011, 7:11 PM
For a budget option, consider the Hi-Point Carbine (http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/carbines/carbines_main.html)/Hi-Point Handgun (http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/handguns/handgun_main.html) combo in 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP. Manufacturer's suggested retail price $274-$449 for the carbines, $165-$199.95 for the handguns ($439-$648.95 for both). Of course, you can mix-and-match your firearms, but if both are Hi-Points IIRC either the carbine magazines may be used in the handgun (9mm and 45ACP) or the magazines are interchangeable between the handgun and carbine (40 S&W).

Just remember, it is not legal to shoot someone for making fun of your firearms.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/60-tm-tfb.jpg

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/images/45ACP_polymer.jpg

Saym14
10-25-2011, 5:46 PM
.556 = common caliber?

You're doing it wrong.



2.23? At least you're shooting something big, the guy above you has a rifle that shoots pencil lead. Also, useless trivia: the AR pistol w/o buffer tube is not a RRA design, and is not new.

:shrug:

LOL!!!

cineski
10-30-2011, 9:34 AM
I remember when the ammo scare hit post Obammy and everyone bought ammo in hoards. The only ammo I ever saw during this time was 40SW and 500 Magnum. Everything else was gone for months on end. 45ACP doesn't strike me as a good SHTF ammo simply because it's been so scarce. I've thought about getting a 40 since that's all that was avail during the shortage and cops use it. Also need to get a .22 as that's the best cartridge for a true SHTF situation.

Saym14
10-30-2011, 9:50 PM
I remember when the ammo scare hit post Obammy and everyone bought ammo in hoards. The only ammo I ever saw during this time was 40SW and 500 Magnum. Everything else was gone for months on end. 45ACP doesn't strike me as a good SHTF ammo simply because it's been so scarce. I've thought about getting a 40 since that's all that was avail during the shortage and cops use it. Also need to get a .22 as that's the best cartridge for a true SHTF situation.

its not scarce if you have 15,000 rounds of it.

jvanloon
11-18-2011, 11:16 AM
S&W model 629 6" barrel .44 mag and a Winchester model 94 in 44mag. Heads are gonna pop.

ginman
11-18-2011, 3:27 PM
Ruger 10/22 with 25 round mags, glock 19 under the armpit, sw 66 on the hip, and glock 26 on the ankle. If I were to take two long guns I would grab my marlin 30-30, but if I were able to have two then why wouldn't I be able to bring all my guns, if I were to have my truck. Carrying the same caliber in both your guns is a mistake I think, say you come across a ton of ammo in various calibers but the caliber you need. .22 is light, fast, and accurate and nobody will bum rush you if its being shot at them. Not to mention you can hunt a wide variety of game with it. It can also be found everywhere!

jyo
11-18-2011, 9:56 PM
I have a crusty old shooting buddy who only owns three guns; a Marlin Camp 45, a Glock 21 45 ACP and an Remington 870 12 ga (short barrel, rifle sights)---two types of ammo into three guns---he considers himself well-armed and I can't disagree.

ginman
11-19-2011, 8:42 AM
Does the 870 have rifleing? If so he should check the pattern when he shoots any shot shells, the pattern opens up significantly more when the barrel is rifled. Not that it matters, it still is a great weapon.

Ripon83
11-19-2011, 12:35 PM
I'd look seriously into a tube fed 22 like the Marlin (I think it is) and a 22 revolver....if you are going for a single caliber why bother with a variety of magazines?


If I had to take a two item combo. It would be a .22 pistol and a 10/22. More ammo the better IMO. Humans used to stalk prey for days to tire them out. I will just shoot it as many times as possible. Humane or not it's a shtf and survival situation.

But personally Ide go for the ar with a .22 bolt conversion in my bag. And then a 9mm pistol.

jeffrice6
11-19-2011, 5:07 PM
My .44 Marlin 1894 and S&W 627 make an awful nice pair! Can drop near anything inside 100yds.........

scarville
11-19-2011, 9:28 PM
The bad boy caliber of the era, the 45 Colt was not offered in the Winchester rifles at the time. Colt and Winchester were competitiors after all. A Winchester would be more likely to be in .44-40, 38-40, etc.
They may have been competitors but in 1878 Colt started making the Single Action Army in 44/40 as a companion to the Winchester 73. The 45 colt was the most popular chambering in the SAA by a wide margin but the 44/40 was the second most popular.

223556
11-19-2011, 9:39 PM
If money wasnt an issue, a Glock 21 .45 ACP as my side arm and a Kriss Vector as my main arm.
Magazines are the same for BOTH! So no need to stock up on any other mags!!!
Just stock up on .45! Hehehehe :)

ElvenSoul
11-19-2011, 10:01 PM
So I guess a 45-90 is outta question in a handgun?

ElvenSoul
11-19-2011, 10:01 PM
No love for HighPoint Carbines and Pistols?

DavidR310
11-19-2011, 11:31 PM
No love for HighPoint Carbines and Pistols?

I dont like when my knives cost more than my guns! lol

Cali-Shooter
11-19-2011, 11:59 PM
Just remember, it is not legal to shoot someone for making fun of your firearms.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/60-tm-tfb.jpg

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/images/45ACP_polymer.jpg

I love the carbines, HATE the pistols. Sorry, Hi-Point.

ShootinMedic
11-20-2011, 12:26 AM
.50BMG FTW :cool2:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1416695914398&id=c00d41da726bfe80a41d250356cd059c&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.securityarms.com%2fphotos%2f1 271786111.jpg

http://www.tgscom.com/images/sharedimages/other1/barrettrifle.jpg

DavidR310
11-20-2011, 1:43 AM
.50BMG FTW :cool2:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1416695914398&id=c00d41da726bfe80a41d250356cd059c&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.securityarms.com%2fphotos%2f1 271786111.jpg

http://www.tgscom.com/images/sharedimages/other1/barrettrifle.jpg

lol

http://toeas.com/smiley/files/2011/08/laughing-smiley-face-6.gif

VegasND
11-20-2011, 7:16 AM
While I don't hate the pistols I do agree that the carbines make a lot more sense to own and they're a lot more fun to shoot.
I love the carbines, HATE the pistols. Sorry, Hi-Point.

And the hi-point .45 duo has been discussed:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=466804

Not even close to my first choice if SHTF

Cali-Shooter
11-20-2011, 10:57 AM
^ ^ ^ That's a terrific HP carbine you got there.

I'd get one in .40 S&W or 9mm if given the chance, and I'm not TOTALLY against getting a magazine and ammo interchangeable HP handgun as well, it's just that, said handgun would be subservient to the carbine. And another idea for keeping a cheapo, beater weapon (what I would use it as) if I got a HP handgun, is if and when the SHTF, you can use it as a force-multiplier and arm someone you can trust that needs a weapon.
Or you can barter it away to someone that needs/wants a gun.

BearWhoHunts
11-20-2011, 1:05 PM
I have my 1894c with ghost ring sights and my model 19. I also have a 12ga and .22 revolver for my compatriot. Between those 4 guns I can take any North American animal, defend myself and have enough tent poles! I reload for .38/.357 and fully trust my two guns. I have memorized the impact points for my loads and would not mind using those to get started again.