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ExtremeX
10-15-2011, 10:56 PM
I'm a die hard AR guy... love em but recently I've been thinking of getting my first AK and or Saiga 12 to diversify a little...

That being said, I really don't know much about AKs...

Whats hot, whats not, best price to pay. Milled vs Stamped receiver worth it difference in cost?

Can anyone give me a little education here? Do they have "featureless" versions that don't require a bullet button?

Javi
10-15-2011, 11:24 PM
I'm a die hard AR guy... love em but recently I've been thinking of getting my first AK and or Saiga 12 to diversify a little...

That being said, I really don't know much about AKs...

Whats hot, whats not, best price to pay. Milled vs Stamped receiver worth it difference in cost?

Can anyone give me a little education here? Do they have "featureless" versions that don't require a bullet button?

The AK's you see are almost featureless(I don't think bayonet lugs are a problem? Not 100% sure). It's that dang pistol grip that requires it to have a bullet button so you can get something like this:
http://www.solartactical.com/images/126266170426954308155.jpeg
And your good. There are Saiga rifles which are sporting rifle versions of an AK.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/IZ132.jpg

MrPlink
10-15-2011, 11:36 PM
most will agree, milled is really about collectibility/nostalgia.

Stamped are plenty strong, cheaper, and much lighter.

Not much to know outside of that. At all costs avoid IO. Century BUILT should be approached with caution, but Century IMPORTED are good to go.

Saiga conversion isnt a bad way to go.

If you want something specific or unique, you may want to consider a kit build, but unlike an AR, building these day is actually not cheaper than buying (usually) when it comes to aK.

Javi
10-15-2011, 11:40 PM
If you want something specific or unique, you may want to consider a kit build, but unlike an AR, building these day is actually not cheaper than buying (usually) when it comes to aK.

Not as easy to build either. There's plenty of 'build parties' if you want to learn, though.

Cuerno_de_Chivo
10-15-2011, 11:43 PM
Milled just looks prettier. I see no difference in how they perform, it's an AK after all. Either a milled or a stamped should be fine. I'd definitely go the Saiga route, they are cheap and it'll give you some familiarization with the AK platform.

hoozaru
10-15-2011, 11:43 PM
NOOOOOOOO IO CASAR ....BIG NO NO

nevermind plink beat me to it

Javi
10-15-2011, 11:48 PM
You can browse the CA legal section of this site for some companies:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storecategory94.aspx

Go to local gun shops and the usual suspects are the Century Arms- WASR 10 and Arsenal's line of AK's. Century tends to be the cheapest ($400 something on sale)and Arsenal's tend to be the most expensive($800)

Javi
10-15-2011, 11:51 PM
Oh & look into the import law Title 18 USC 922(r).

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rParts

I use this site often, they have a worksheet that shows if your rifle is compliant. Helps if your going to add any foreign parts to your complete rifle or if your building.

89 Vision
10-16-2011, 12:44 AM
Well if you're an AR guy, then AK's are cheap in comparison. Get yourself a Arsenal SGL 21 and be done with it. You can get the milled if you really want to be fancy. But there's not much difference to me, only the price.

d1eSELxxxx
10-16-2011, 1:04 AM
Just to throw out some brands and prices. In an AK you wanna look for 2 things, either you want is brand new or used....either way they will both work and have great reliability. If you want a standard new AK then you might wanna look at arsenal's. Used, then look at Wasr 10's. The reason I mention these is because if you wanna buy used then you dont wanna spend too much and Wasr's are pretty cheap($3-500). Arsenals going for $750 and up. Milled or stamp, either way they will have that "AK" reputation reliability. As the guys are saying it, milled is more for collectable and stamped for most use.

One thing I did come across is that I saw a video on you tube(i think more than 1 video), that the polymer handguards on the Arsenal's are not battle ready and might just wanna throw a quad rail on it. I guess the polymer would melt around the barrel/gas block. But I have no experience on this myself and just going off what I saw/read. So do NOT let that stop you from getting a Arsenal. It could've just been that case and that case only. Other than that you are g2g with either AK.

resident-shooter
10-16-2011, 2:56 AM
In Cali, saiga imo is the best option..

h0use
10-16-2011, 4:22 AM
Stamped reciver will last you 2 lifetimes as a milled one will last you 3 lifetime =]

tujungatoes
10-16-2011, 7:01 AM
most will agree, milled is really about collectibility/nostalgia.

Stamped are plenty strong, cheaper, and much lighter.

Not much to know outside of that. At all costs avoid IO. Century BUILT should be approached with caution, but Century IMPORTED are good to go.

Saiga conversion isnt a bad way to go.

If you want something specific or unique, you may want to consider a kit build, but unlike an AR, building these day is actually not cheaper than buying (usually) when it comes to aK.

^^This is good advice.

Featureless can be done pretty easily. usually all that's needed is a kydex grip wrap, and the proper muzzle device. Those can be bought from calgunner munkeeboi, or from solar tactical(probably others too, but I know those two). I have a munk-wrap, but I'm biased cause he's a friend.

I will argue one statement made by several here....There's more to a milled AK than collectability. While functionally the same as a stamped receiver rifle, the additional weight they have gives a smoother/more solid feel when shooting. I'm not saying it's better. Just different.

I'd still recommend a stamped rifle for your first AK. They're much cheaper and more widely available.....The saiga and arsenal fanboys will be along shortly to tell you that those rifles are superior to everything else is on the market because they're "russian made"(big f***'n deal:shrug:). They are good rifles but like the milled guns, at the end of the day they're still just an AK like any other.

Meet up with fellow CG'ers, and ask to shoot their AK's. Figure out what you like best, and make your purchase. Be careful though, kalashnikovitis is more deadly than BRD.:D

FiveSeven
10-16-2011, 7:14 AM
most will agree, milled is really about collectibility/nostalgia.

Stamped are plenty strong, cheaper, and much lighter.
.

Own both and honestly can't tell the difference in weight one bit. It's a viscous rumor started by some girly man who's actually a girl.

Nothing wrong with a stamped receiver at all, milled just fells better in cycling (much smoother) and safety lever works smoother also. At least on mine it does.

m03
10-16-2011, 9:45 AM
most will agree, milled is really about collectibility/nostalgia.


...and smoother action, double-hook triggers, and (usually) heavier barrels...

:)

Panchira!
10-16-2011, 10:15 AM
I built mine from a romy g parts kit. It is my first ak and won be my last. Shoots like a champ! Yes it's costs more building it but you get that better quality because you are building it.

mreed
10-16-2011, 10:21 AM
are there any tutorials or guides on how to pick the right parts for building an ak? what you need? how to do it? good parts?

VsFoxHOUND
10-16-2011, 10:39 AM
Usually if you're building it, you'll get a kit that'll have some furniture, gas tube and gas block, front sight base, etc. Pretty much everything except a receiver and a barrel (unless you're lucky and find one with a barrel)

What do you specifically want from your AK? If you just want something that goes bang every shot, get a WASR 10/63, NOT a WASR 10. It'll last longer than you will, and they tend to average 3-4 MOA, with reports of 2 MOA thrown out there every now and then. WASRs are kinda like the ginger kids of AK's. People don't like em for some reason but they're perfectly fine for what they are.

For roughly the same price (though often a tad cheaper) you can get a Saiga and then spend the money down the road to convert it to a traditional AK.

The next commonly available AK would be something from Arsenal. Their weapons are converted Saigas and Bulgarian AK's that they put together, usually pretty well. They come out of the box looking prettier than a WASR, and they're brand new rifles as well. The average MOA of an Arsenal in 7.62x39 is about 3 MOA. The finish is prone to wearing down quickly though. Some people report their rifles failing with jams and other things that shouldn't happen in an AK. Not to say a Saiga or a WASR can't do that, but it's not unheard of with Arsenal.

I myself, own a 74 built BY Century (as opposed to being imported by them) and it's a very nice rifle. Their M74s have been reported to be very nice now that the barrel issue has been remedied (using .223 barrels or incorrect rifling for the 5.45 round) I can group about 2.5-3" at 100 yards with mine, and I'm sure the rifle has more potential than that as I'm not the most experienced shooter.

If you want an AK to make your AR look better, pick up a WASR. If you want an AK out of the box that looks beautiful even compared to your AR, then you'll want a Saiga or an Arsenal. They all go bang, it just depends on how much you wanna spend and what you want.

ZX-10R
10-16-2011, 12:32 PM
Where are you located?

Do some more research on AK patterns and Calguns IS DEFINITELY NOT your first stop for your question. Read a lot.

I just started a thread and just bought my 5th AK pattern - a Polish UF from DAS...Read some good stuff about the Polish UF I choose but it was a random purchase.

Good luck and do a search on the web regarding AKs first.

luckystrike
10-16-2011, 12:33 PM
I used to be in the same boat, but now I prefer aks over ars. Went with arsenal and never looked back.

Cuerno_de_Chivo
10-16-2011, 12:42 PM
I used to be in the same boat, but now I prefer aks over ars. Went with arsenal and never looked back.

*waiting for Arsenal haters to flame you*

If you get a WASR, you might look back. If you get an Arsenal i doubt you'll look back. Actually, it depends, Arsenal is your option if you want to go for a more modern look and add all the stuff people add to their ARs. WASRs are for those who want an original look. The only reason i want to get a WASR is for the original gas block and slant break, but Arsenals are definitely a much higher quality. They are prettier than WASRs but if you get a good WASR, they will function just as good as an Arsenal.

*waiting to get flamed*

2600fromAtari
10-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Own both and honestly can't tell the difference in weight one bit. It's a viscous rumor started by some girly man who's actually a girl.

Nothing wrong with a stamped receiver at all, milled just fells better in cycling (much smoother) and safety lever works smoother also. At least on mine it does.

Agreed. I can hardly tell the difference between my stamped or milled models. One thing I'll add is that the buttstock on the milled models cant downwards more so than the stamped models. It'll affect different people differently of course, but this makes the rifle much more comfortable for my shoulders and firing position.

Cato
10-16-2011, 12:47 PM
My gun tastes are much like yours. I prefer the AR, but find the AK interesting. That being said, I got a Rommy with classic wood furniture. I think I've seen them at Turners for $499. Part of the appeal of the AK is that you can get one CHEAP. There are more expensive models with composite stocks, forged receivers, and optics, but that's not consistant with the "spirit of the AK."

cannon
10-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Built one and bought a Saiga. The built one has a pistol grip and maglock and the Saiga is featureless.

Both are stupid reliable and neither has had a failure of any sort in several thousand rounds combined.

Whether you go high end or low end you'll get an extremely reliable rifle. One just will look better than the other.

ExtremeX
10-16-2011, 1:16 PM
My gun tastes are much like yours. I prefer the AR, but find the AK interesting. That being said, I got a Rommy with classic wood furniture. I think I've seen them at Turners for $499. Part of the appeal of the AK is that you can get one CHEAP. There are more expensive models with composite stocks, forged receivers, and optics, but that's not consistant with the "spirit of the AK."

The price is why im looking... Even the more expensive stamped AKs are still 1/2 the cost of my cheapest AR... Ammo is also cheaper, and im just looking for a classic AK...

Wood furniture almost seems like a must, but I don't know if I should just get a featureless and skip out on the pistol grip... I figure it would provide more utility than just another CA nerfed rifle.

I have 1 more AR lower and I plan to make a featureless setup so I can just swap uppers.... Figure its easier to do on an AR than an AK.

What is all this talk about conversions? Is that to add a pistol grip?

I might just get a Saiga 12 and an AK at the same time and save a litte on the DROS.

110
10-16-2011, 2:06 PM
The price is why im looking... Even the more expensive stamped AKs are still 1/2 the cost of my cheapest AR... Ammo is also cheaper, and im just looking for a classic AK...

Wood furniture almost seems like a must, but I don't know if I should just get a featureless and skip out on the pistol grip... I figure it would provide more utility than just another CA nerfed rifle.

I have 1 more AR lower and I plan to make a featureless setup so I can just swap uppers.... Figure its easier to do on an AR than an AK.

What is all this talk about conversions? Is that to add a pistol grip?

I might just get a Saiga 12 and an AK at the same time and save a litte on the DROS.
or maybe you should get a wasr 10 and cover the pistol grip with a kydex grip wrap to go featurless.IMO it is the best way of going featureless with an ak and the least damaging, of course.here is the link for kydex grip wrap:

http://www.solartactical.com/AK-SAIGA-SERIES_c34.htm

BroncoBob
10-16-2011, 2:10 PM
Say what you want but I love my Wasr 10 and my Wasr 22.

Javi
10-16-2011, 7:31 PM
One thing I did come across is that I saw a video on you tube(i think more than 1 video), that the polymer handguards on the Arsenal's are not battle ready and might just wanna throw a quad rail on it. I guess the polymer would melt around the barrel/gas block. But I have no experience on this myself and just going off what I saw/read.

I believe that's possible if you have 30 rounders(or a TON of 10 rounders) and your doing magazine dump to magazine dump to magazine dump x 3 without stopping haha. More normal use, they should not melt.

Javi
10-16-2011, 7:35 PM
The price is why im looking... Even the more expensive stamped AKs are still 1/2 the cost of my cheapest AR... Ammo is also cheaper, and im just looking for a classic AK...

Wood furniture almost seems like a must, but I don't know if I should just get a featureless and skip out on the pistol grip... I figure it would provide more utility than just another CA nerfed rifle.

I have 1 more AR lower and I plan to make a featureless setup so I can just swap uppers.... Figure its easier to do on an AR than an AK.

What is all this talk about conversions? Is that to add a pistol grip?

I might just get a Saiga 12 and an AK at the same time and save a litte on the DROS.
Wood furniture is personal preference, get whatever you want. Honestly, I will be going back n' forth from featureless to a featured rifle because I like the look of what the AK is suppose to look like and I like dropping magazines freely. Switching them out seems easy and fast to me.

BroncoBob
10-16-2011, 7:47 PM
Like I said love my Wasr's, a little wood a little poly carbonate. :D

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk75/223Bob/AK%2047%20Rifles/MVC-023F.jpg

Richard Erichsen
10-16-2011, 7:54 PM
...and smoother action, double-hook triggers, and (usually) heavier barrels...

:)

The Yugoslavian/Serbian M70AB2/B2 series have the heaviest barrel profiles, beefy 1.5mm stamped receivers, reinforced bulged barrel trunnions (RPK style) and use a buttstock and pistol grip attachment typically found only on milled receivers - pistol grip block with three rivets on the underside of the receiver rather than the little nut security the pistol grip screw on the inside of the receiver. There is a long through-bolt for the buttstock that is screwed into the rear trunnion that has no stock tangs. I fully heat treated my receivers to 40-42 HRC for added toughness, though that was total overkill.

The only real downside is that Yugo pattern AKs are unique dimensionally and while it is related to the AKM, it is not directly compatible with many parts from the AKM. Ditto for aftermarket parts selection, few are Yugo compatible. Until you handle one of these monsters, the milled receivers probably do seem comparatively beefy to the flimsy feeling 1 mm receiver based AKMs. The only rifles with 1 mm receivers I've considered and started the build process on are Bulgarian AK74s where I consider the 1 mm a good match to a downsized weapon relative to the heavy Yugos.

R

Speedpower
10-16-2011, 8:03 PM
You can make a WASR look nice by staining the wood with the color of your choice then apply Polyurethane varnish.

VsFoxHOUND
10-17-2011, 2:33 AM
Also, just because you have a WASR doesn't mean you're stuck with a ****ty finish! This goes for you Arsenal guys too, if your finish happens to begin to strip :)

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94792

ZX-10R
10-17-2011, 6:33 AM
Like I said love my Wasr's, a little wood a little poly carbonate. :D

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk75/223Bob/AK%2047%20Rifles/MVC-023F.jpg

Amen...

I love my WASRs, PSL, and hopefully love this Polish.

If the OP can find a Yugo M70 he is set. I am in search of and right now it is my holy grail...

ZX-10R
10-17-2011, 6:40 AM
Remember CGN is full of Saiga guys because they are LIMITED to AKs that are available to them to touch, fondle, or purchase - So they order and get burned. IF you can handle the rifle you are buying the better. The Polish I am getting is on its way but I handled one and if it was indicative of what I am getting then I am set beyond belief....If you can find some AK patterns that you can fondle and know what to look for, you are set. AK pattern is just 2-5 MOA at 100 meteres and can take a lot of abuse, and are very reliable. If you are looking for AR accuracy and build then the AK will not fit your bill even if you get a $1000 AK pattern.

The CAI stories are there but do you know how many people have rifles that have passed through CAI? If those stories were true would I be on my 5th CAI purchase? Take that in. Always remember the complainers, newbs, and people who did not know are generally the loudest to complain...Plus most of the people who say not to get a WASR or CAI rifle never even owned one. There are alternatives...Seems Interarms is doing a great job with their rifles.

Good luck and again keep doing research.

ZX-10R
10-17-2011, 6:42 AM
Also, just because you have a WASR doesn't mean you're stuck with a ****ty finish! This goes for you Arsenal guys too, if your finish happens to begin to strip :)

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94792

Amen brother...Seems some people have half arsed looking Saigas that I would never think to buy.

OP find an AK forum to join or join multiple ones and do the research. CGN is notorious for being a Saiga fanboy spot.

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 12:31 AM
^
The last two post are full of fail. Stating that it's retarded would be to nice to describe those statements.

Seriously..... We are talking a AK rifle here. Properly converted Saiga is as AK as any other good quality AK.
There is no magic metals or super secret craftsmanship in taking beat up crappy parts kit and turn it in to AK.

At least with Saiga's your get all the NEW mil spec receiver and barrel already properly assembled. Not something that was hammered by a drunk monkey for quick small profit.

"Real" military AK's are not available in U.S especially in CA. So all that talk about other various International AK's assembled by some company is nonsense and are not any superior to a converted Saiga. It won't shoot any better, it won't be more reliable, it won't have better barrel/receiver, it won't do anything better.

WASR this WASR that, they are the main AK's that attributed to stereotype as being poor fit and finish crappy quality AK's. Majority who are interested in AK for the first time are turn off once they see a WASR and assume all AK are like that.

BTW, your "holly grail" has unneeded/useless parts, non-chrome lined barrel and offers absolutely nothing better in terms of what good converted Saiga can do or is. The same goes toward "U.S" made Polish UF with crappy stock.

And for the last time, your "AK" forums are overrun by Arsenal owners.

I'd rather do the work myself and make it my way not Arsenal way or "traditional" way.

someR1
10-18-2011, 9:04 AM
saiga+convert= done

or WASR10 from Henderson Defense

zfields
10-18-2011, 9:06 AM
^
And for the last time, your "AK" forums are overrun by Arsenal owners.

I'd rather do the work myself and make it my way not Arsenal way or "traditional" way.


This is why I stick to the Saiga-12 forums. Most the info there is cross platform, and much less full of BS.


Cant get much less traditional then a Russian rifle with Bulgarian parts!




well, except for a russian rifle with american parts

Speedpower
10-18-2011, 9:16 AM
I got my WASR 10/63 from Turners and it is as perfect as an AK can be, a very precise shooter, hitting 12 inch diameter steel targets at a 100 yards with iron sights all day long for 1/2 the price of an Arsenal.

1forall
10-18-2011, 9:21 AM
I'm a die hard AR guy... love em but recently I've been thinking of getting my first AK...

Congratulations...:43:

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 10:26 AM
well, except for a russian rifle with american parts

This.
+1 for American parts.
All my AK's are this way.

As much as I like AK platform, it's agronomic/modularity are lacking and behind the times. Things evolve so I like to use modern part on an old proven design. Best of the both worlds imo.

grommit666
10-18-2011, 12:34 PM
If a Saiga-12 is an option, I would recommend that. Mine is by far my favorite gun. It's easy to work on and versatile. Plus it just kicks ***. If you're limited to 10 rounds here, you could do a lot worse than 12 guage.

ZX-10R
10-18-2011, 1:33 PM
^
The last two post are full of fail. Stating that it's retarded would be to nice to describe those statements.

Seriously..... We are talking a AK rifle here. Properly converted Saiga is as AK as any other good quality AK.
There is no magic metals or super secret craftsmanship in taking beat up crappy parts kit and turn it in to AK.

At least with Saiga's your get all the NEW mil spec receiver and barrel already properly assembled. Not something that was hammered by a drunk monkey for quick small profit.

"Real" military AK's are not available in U.S especially in CA. So all that talk about other various International AK's assembled by some company is nonsense and are not any superior to a converted Saiga. It won't shoot any better, it won't be more reliable, it won't have better barrel/receiver, it won't do anything better.

WASR this WASR that, they are the main AK's that attributed to stereotype as being poor fit and finish crappy quality AK's. Majority who are interested in AK for the first time are turn off once they see a WASR and assume all AK are like that.

BTW, your "holly grail" has unneeded/useless parts, non-chrome lined barrel and offers absolutely nothing better in terms of what good converted Saiga can do or is. The same goes toward "U.S" made Polish UF with crappy stock.

And for the last time, your "AK" forums are overrun by Arsenal owners.

I'd rather do the work myself and make it my way not Arsenal way or "traditional" way.


This is OP is the guy who has never seen much or handled many AK patterns. You avoid guys like this when he has a converted Saiga and thinks that is the end all.


Let me know when you want to take me up on my open challenge...Your conversion versus mine. Been out there for quite a while.

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 2:25 PM
^
What makes you think I have not owned, shot/handle other types of AK's? What do you know besides assuming nonsense and what makes you an "expert" in an AK, say if there is such a title now days (as there's nothing much to it).

If you really implying that somehow WASR will out-shoot any Saiga then I have nothing else to tell you.
Your challenge means nothing as I have better things to do then to meet up with someone to compare AK's. Shot both types and don't have to see you shoot yours to know what WASR's is.

tacticalcity
10-18-2011, 2:32 PM
As an AR guy you are used to a certain level of fit and finish you are not going to find in the AK. It has a very "made in metal shop" look and feel to it. Little design quirks will probably annoy you. Such as the safety that intentional scrapes the finish off the receiver down to raw metal. The sights are considerably more difficult to use and magazine changes are a lot clunkier. All these comments will of course annoy the heck out of die hard AK guys. The AK is a nice battlefield rifle. I'm just warning you that it is a very different beast than the AR with it's own quirks. Quirks we would not accept from a commercial design. Quicks the AK only gets away with because it is an AK and has a mythos built up around it. So long as you are aware of them going in, they probably won't bug you. Would I own another AK? Definately. Am I in a hurry? Not really, the AK bug is not biting at the moment - but it could bite any time.

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 2:59 PM
^
Saiga's fit and finish is above excellent for a rifle that's close to a military type rifle. Safety lever won't scratch the metal bare beyond a point, it simply rides on that grove and will function just like that longer than your own lifespan even if you used it on a daily basis. With that said, well made AK will outlast AR (with it's extra parts) many times over. Even stamped receiver will outlast most AR (aluminum/alloy-cast/polymer) receivers.
Sight are superior to AR for fast target acquisition and very fast follow up shots. Peep/Ghost ring sights are good for longer accuracy, for shorter distance they are inferior to blade sights.
Magazine changes (they way it was design to) are not clunkier. It's all how or what your used to. The more you do something the better you get at it.

But hey, to each their own. Not your cup a tea and that's fine. AR is a good rifle, just not something I expect to last a lifetime without replacing many parts.
Own 6 AK/Saiga's all in 7.62x39 and won't trade them for any AR.
I actually understand your preference in guns, I'm the same way, just with the opposite view. In other words, I'm not trying to change your mind, understanding you can't do the same.

zfields
10-18-2011, 4:15 PM
As an AR guy you are used to a certain level of fit and finish you are not going to find in the AK. It has a very "made in metal shop" look and feel to it. Little design quirks will probably annoy you. Such as the safety that intentional scrapes the finish off the receiver down to raw metal. The sights are considerably more difficult to use and magazine changes are a lot clunkier. All these comments will of course annoy the heck out of die hard AK guys. The AK is a nice battlefield rifle. I'm just warning you that it is a very different beast than the AR with it's own quirks. Quirks we would not accept from a commercial design. Quicks the AK only gets away with because it is an AK and has a mythos built up around it. So long as you are aware of them going in, they probably won't bug you. Would I own another AK? Definately. Am I in a hurry? Not really, the AK bug is not biting at the moment - but it could bite any time.


Sights are much easier to use....just not going to get a lot of the precision you are used to. There freakin handgun sights slapped on a rifle.

zfields
10-18-2011, 4:17 PM
This is OP is the guy who has never seen much or handled many AK patterns. You avoid guys like this when he has a converted Saiga and thinks that is the end all.


Let me know when you want to take me up on my open challenge...Your conversion versus mine. Been out there for quite a while.

so you want to compare converted saigas?

tacticalcity
10-18-2011, 4:24 PM
Sights are much easier to use....just not going to get a lot of the precision you are used to. There freakin handgun sights slapped on a rifle.

They remind me of Remington 870 rifle sights (I was exposed to this weapon system first) which don't work well for me either. Very low compared to your cheek weld. Not much to them so they can be hard/slow to pickup. But if they work for you then great. Use what works and what you like.

Gonna have to agree to disagree...what else is new, right?

I don't hate the AK. It just failed to meet all the hype. It was a bit of a let down given how full on fanatical AK fanboys are in both their love for the AK and their hatred of the AR. I've owned two. One custom built for me in trade by a member here (and he did great work it was not his fault) and one from a half way decent brand. They were fun to shoot, but no more impressive than my ARs. If anything less so. Both had the occassional malfunction. Nothing drastic, but they are supposed to be jam proof and make the ARs look like jam-o-matics. If anything they had as many if not more failures. The magazine changes were more difficult and for me the sights were harder to use. Add the fit and finish differences I commented on above I could take it or leave it, but certainly liked it more than a boat load of other options out there.

The myth behind the AKs invinsibility and the ARs failures are based mostly on experiences from the Vietnam war. Not only has the AR been radically and drastically improved since then (and the correct type of powder is being used in ammo now) but most the CA legal AKs are not Russian and Chinese factory originals. So the argument doesn't really hold up. But I was expecting it. So I guess that's my fault for expecting the myth to be true.

Nothing wrong with absolutely loving the AK. Just annoys me when they bash the heck out of the AR for reasons that don't match the reality and haven't since the 1960s. It makes me wonder if they ever bothered giving the AR the same chance I gave the AK. Because what they write/say certainly doesn't match the experiences I had.

Needless to say, I wanted to absolutely love the AK, and only just liked it. But I would definately own one again, if the right oportunity or circumstances popped up or I just got bit by the AK bug...which has been known to happen with me. Maybe the next one will impress me more? You never know. There are lots of different makes, models, styles, brands out there and I've only tried two. Someday I may just come accross the one that truly floats my boat.

Besides, that Vickers AK course looks like a lot of fun!

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 4:24 PM
Sights are much easier to use....just not going to get a lot of the precision you are used to. There freakin handgun sights slapped on a rifle.

Actually they were on the rifles for over a 100+ years.
Nearly all European WW2 bolt action had those sights. Many sharp shooters and snipers used those "handgun" sight one their rifles to achieve sniper like accuracy.
It's not the sights, it's the user then the weapon (in that order).
......but nonetheless open sight provide faster sight picture, better field of view especially at closer ranges, make it easier to intercept a moving target etc.

I don't hate it. It was just a bit of a let down given how full on fanatical AK fanboys are in both their love for the AK and their hatred of the AR.

No one in their right mind hates an inanimate object, it's a preference just like your own, no? There's plenty of preferences when it comes to firearms and what suits one's needs or wants. As you stated agree to disagree.

C_1
10-18-2011, 4:52 PM
I'll take a made in Russia Saiga/AK (with sporterized stock and without muzzle threads), over a WASR, any day. Changing out the FCG, stock, and grip, is a piece of cake (keep in mind the 922R parts). Installing a bullet guide and filing the mag catch is not hard either.

AK sights are not the greatest for precision. Like another member mentioned, its basically pistol sights, but if you do your part, you should be able to hit a man sized target 100-300 yards out.

So what is the OP's question? :)

If you want a traditional looking AK, and don't want to spend a lot of money, get an inexpensive WASR; don't expect fit and finish to be like an AR. But if you don't mind modifying it, give the Russian made Saiga a look; an Arsenal AK is basically a converted Saiga.

FiveSeven
10-18-2011, 5:45 PM
AK sights are not the greatest for precision. Like another member mentioned, its basically pistol sights, but if you do your part, you should be able to hit a man sized target 100-300 yards out.



Hate to beat a dead horse but you and the other member are dead wrong.

K98 and other Mausers, MN 91/30 and variants, Finn's Mosin Nagants, Swiss rifles all have those type of sight and non of them are pistols.

Have you ever heard of someone complaining of how inaccurate or lacking precision K31 is?
No comparing AK to bolt action rifle but simply pointing out that they are not pistol sights and great precision has nothing to do with those type of sights or other.

C_1
10-18-2011, 6:49 PM
Hate to beat a dead horse but you and the other member are dead wrong.

K98 and other Mausers, MN 91/30 and variants, Finn's Mosin Nagants, Swiss rifles all have those type of sight and non of them are pistols.

Have you ever heard of someone complaining of how inaccurate or lacking precision K31 is?
No comparing AK to bolt action rifle but simply pointing out that they are not pistol sights and great precision has nothing to do with those type of sights or other.


Ok, let me rephrase the first part: AKs are not known for precision.

But I said "basically pistol sights," as in, for lack of a better description or proper term, rear square block with a slot, and front sight post. Most pistols have these type of sights, so when you look at an AK and its sights, well, its not hard to see why people call them the same.

And if you read the end of the last sentence of what you quoted, I am not implying that it is arrow, but the indian.

However, I think the last part of your post is a little off. Sights (nowadays folks are using scopes), among other things, go hand in hand with accuracy and precision.

13204u
10-18-2011, 7:25 PM
To quote myself from another thread:

Which ak? The one that functions properly and is within your planned budget. The rest is really personal preference and has little bearing on performance.

ZX-10R
10-19-2011, 6:52 AM
Ok, let me rephrase the first part: AKs are not known for precision.

But I said "basically pistol sights," as in, for lack of a better description or proper term, rear square block with a slot, and front sight post. Most pistols have these type of sights, so when you look at an AK and its sights, well, its not hard to see why people call them the same.

And if you read the end of the last sentence of what you quoted, I am not implying that it is arrow, but the indian.

However, I think the last part of your post is a little off. Sights (nowadays folks are using scopes), among other things, go hand in hand with accuracy and precision.

You are dealing with a guy who has a converted Saiga and thinks highly of it over any other AK pattern. Probably never touched anything outside of a Saiga. It is a waste of your time and others to even have the kind of conversation you are having with him.

Its about have and have nots and he is on the NOT end of it.

FiveSeven
10-19-2011, 7:52 AM
You are dealing with a guy who has a converted Saiga and thinks highly of it over any other AK pattern. Probably never touched anything outside of a Saiga. It is a waste of your time and others to even have the kind of conversation you are having with him.

Its about have and have nots and he is on the NOT end of it.

Seriously dude, your making an _____ out of yourself.
Reading comprehension lacking a bit? Where did he ever said anything bad about Saiga and advised "other" AK platform over it?
I was simply pointing out and disagreeing with him that AK sight are not pistol sights. Those are rifle sight that have been used on rifles for a long time.

As to having a converted Saiga.... Yes, more than one actually and I'll take it over any other AK I've owned prior and current.
Note: not all of them are Saigas.
Still work in progress on a few.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/sergey25/Guns%203/Image3c44.jpg

C_1
10-19-2011, 11:41 AM
We're all on the same team guys!

But to the OP, buy a WASR or Saiga, a bunch of ammo, and have fun.

Flopper
10-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Saiga in 5.45.

Keep it unconverted so you can run high caps and drop mags.

5.45 is cheap and the terminal ballistics are great.

zfields
10-19-2011, 12:00 PM
Saiga in 5.45.

Keep it unconverted so you can run high caps and drop mags.

5.45 is cheap and the terminal ballistics are great.

Meh, or Gripfin/monsterman it so you dont have to deal with the craptastic trigger and odd ergos.

C_1
10-19-2011, 12:13 PM
Saiga in 5.45.

Keep it unconverted so you can run high caps and drop mags.

5.45 is cheap and the terminal ballistics are great.


Using "hi cap" mags will trigger 922r; so keep that in mind. A conversion is not hard, but I do like featureless AKs, so I use a MMG.

zfields
10-19-2011, 12:16 PM
Using "hi cap" mags will trigger 922r; so keep that in mind. A conversion is not hard, but I do like featureless AKs, so I use a MMG.

This has been argued out a lot, since it doesn't require modification to accept standard cap mags.


Im in the camp that doesnt think it does, but to each there own untill someone volunteers to be a test case.

ExtremeX
10-19-2011, 12:30 PM
Ive been doing a little research here and there, still haven't done much price shopping... But I think I know what I want in my first AK...

I really want to keep that traditional look and feel... Id like to get some half decent looking furniture on it.

Something like this... no rails, no red dot...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Rifle_AK-47.jpg

C_1
10-19-2011, 12:31 PM
This has been argued out a lot, since it doesn't require modification to accept standard cap mags.


Im in the camp that doesnt think it does, but to each there own untill someone volunteers to be a test case.


I hear ya, but sticking in a 30rd mag is definitely not a sporting configuration. But yeah, I wouldn't want to be the test case either.

zfields
10-19-2011, 12:35 PM
I hear ya, but sticking in a 30rd mag is definitely not a sporting configuration. But yeah, I wouldn't want to be the test case either.

Show me a legal definition of sporting config that has to do with rifle magazines. Believe me, I thought the same thing until someone said the same thing to me.

zfields
10-19-2011, 12:37 PM
Ive been doing a little research here and there, still haven't done much price shopping... But I think I know what I want in my first AK...

I really want to keep that traditional look and feel... Id like to get some half decent looking furniture on it.

Something like this... no rails, no red dot...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Rifle_AK-47.jpg

Henderson Defence certified CAI, then refinish the furniture. Saiga I still think are the best way to go, but replacing the furniture with wood nocks up the price even more, plus having to add a front handguard retainer if you dont have the set up to press it on. The bolt ons scare me, considering you have to file the barrel with many of them.

Cuerno_de_Chivo
10-19-2011, 12:38 PM
Get a WASR and refinish the wood. Or get a new stock set from Ironwooddesigns.com i got mine from there and had a lot of fun finishing them. They came out pretty damn nice too. Heres mine:

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt321/antwn102/elpinchecuerno.jpg

I totally feel you on the original design. Screw the tacticool on an AK, just ain't my cup of tea.

ExtremeX
10-19-2011, 12:50 PM
See that's what im talkin about. That looks like what an AK is supposed to look like.

I don't think I can mall ninja an AK, I got my ARs for that, and I do enjoy it.

Some of these heavily modded AKs don't look like AKs to me anymore, lost its roots.

Like I said, im looking to diversify the collection... All my ARs are tastefully modded, but w/o the wood furniture on an AK... just doesn't do it for me.

Cuerno_de_Chivo
10-19-2011, 12:54 PM
See that's what im talkin about. That looks like what an AK is supposed to look like.

I don't think I can mall ninja an AK, I got my ARs for that, and I do enjoy it.

Some of these heavily modded AKs don't look like AKs to me anymore, lost its roots.

Like I said, im looking to diversify the collection... All my ARs are tastefully modded, but w/o the wood furniture on an AK... just doesn't do it for me.

Exactly! I LOVE the wood on the AK, it's just what the AK is. I mean everybody has the right to do w/e they want on their rifle but IMO wood is just the best on an AK.

gwgn02
10-19-2011, 3:01 PM
Sold my Yugo AK, picked up a Norinco SKS for half the price. Great shooter, like it more than my AK and in Kalifornia here, essentially mag limits render both the same. That said, if I was in a free state, I'd pick up another AK...fun blasters. My AR though is a finer shooter though. But again, different tools for different jobs. Just have fun and shoot!

C_1
10-19-2011, 3:10 PM
Show me a legal definition of sporting config that has to do with rifle magazines. Believe me, I thought the same thing until someone said the same thing to me.

I don't want to clutter the thread, because the argument can go on forever. But here is some food for thought: why did Izhmash make proprietary mags for the Saiga, when AK mags are plentiful?

Why would Izhmash change the the mags, stock and muzzle threads? Because they had to do so to legally import the rifles in a "sporterized" configuration. Most sport, or hunting rifles, have a monte carlo stock, low capacity mag, and no threads on the muzzle.

But you stick a "assault rifle" 30rd mag, in a "sporterized" gun, saying it won't trigger 922r, and then you mention a test case.

I'll stay on the safe side, with a converted Saiga, the correct amount of 922r parts, a bullet guide, and a better trigger.

zfields
10-19-2011, 3:17 PM
I don't want to clutter the thread, because the argument can go on forever. But here is some food for thought: why did Izhmash make proprietary mags for the Saiga, when AK mags are plentiful?

Why would Izhmash change the the mags, stock and muzzle threads? Because they had to do so to legally import the rifles in a "sporterized" configuration. Most sport, or hunting rifles, have a monte carlo stock, low capacity mag, and no threads on the muzzle.

But you stick a "assault rifle" 30rd mag, in a "sporterized" gun, saying it won't trigger 922r, and then you mention a test case.

I'll stay on the safe side, with a converted Saiga, the correct amount of 922r parts, a bullet guide, and a better trigger.

Last post about this for me : )
The 7.62x39 REQUIRES the use of propriety mags for them to feed, or the use of a bullet guide.
The 5.45x39 does not. You are not modifying the gun in anyways.
And again, your making the assumption on what a "sporter" rifle is.

Its debatable. Im full on for converting, I cant stand the craptastic stock trigger.

CLIFF
10-19-2011, 4:46 PM
Hey the wasr 10 is 399.99 at turners today only. After taxes & dros it would be about 475 or 480 if adding the cable lock. It's perfect if you're on a budget.

ZX-10R
10-19-2011, 4:50 PM
Hey the wasr 10 is 399.99 at turners today only. After taxes & dros it would be about 475 or 480 if adding the cable lock. It's perfect if you're on a budget.

Right but the Saiga people are adamant that a Saiga is the solution...Which it is not in this case. However I hope the OP takes this to a real AK site for further info.

Still waiting on the open challenge to the Saiga guys. I will be at SLOSA on the 29th. :43:

ZX-10R
10-19-2011, 4:50 PM
We're all on the same team guys!

But to the OP, buy a WASR or Saiga, a bunch of ammo, and have fun.

Agreed but the Saiga guys are adamant about Saiga...For me the response is do more research.

zfields
10-19-2011, 4:51 PM
Right but the Saiga people are adamant that a Saiga is the solution...Which it is not in this case. However I hope the OP takes this to a real AK site for further info.

Still waiting on the open challenge to the Saiga guys. I will be at SLOSA on the 29th. :43:

Holy god man, does that chip on your shoulder hurt?

ZX-10R
10-19-2011, 5:16 PM
Holy god man, does that chip on your shoulder hurt?

From people here...Nah. Have and have nots.

CLIFF
10-19-2011, 5:24 PM
I don't think this thread will never end with the saigas vs wasrs. long story short for the op do some research or go to a range and rent different types of aks. BTW I have wasr and I love it.

FiveSeven
10-19-2011, 5:25 PM
From people here...Nah. Have and have nots.

Wasn't going to comment but you just had to say it twice and set it up.
From the looks of it.... It looks like "have nots" in your case. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=7233737&postcount=1164)
I think you might get a hint in whats implied there.

cmace22
10-19-2011, 5:54 PM
I'm a die hard AR guy... love em but recently I've been thinking of getting my first AK and or Saiga 12 to diversify a little...

That being said, I really don't know much about AKs...

Whats hot, whats not, best price to pay. Milled vs Stamped receiver worth it difference in cost?

Can anyone give me a little education here? Do they have "featureless" versions that don't require a bullet button?


I skipped all the BS banter above and will answer your questions the best I can.

There are a few ways to go about it and ALL will net you a great AK. It just depends on how much time, energy and money you want to put in to the look you want.

Options:

Buy a Saiga- They are great rifles but do not look like a traditional AKM. Converting one to look like an AKM will cost you time and a little bit of money. The conversion is not hard and can be done in a few hours with the right tools and know how. You do trigger 922r and have to make sure your rifle is compliant. In the end you will have a mostly Russian, new production rifle.

Next you can buy a AKM pattern rifle from a reputable manufacturer. There are a few out there that I would buy from (if I didnt build my own) and a lot to stay away from. I comes down to how much you want to spend and whats important to you.

Last, build your own. Buy a parts kit and spend the time to put together the rifle you want. Its not hard it just takes some know how and time.

What you have to figure out is what you want it to look like and how much you want to spend. Of the AK's I have build, none could be purchased from a manufacturer (in Cali especially) and If I found a compete rifle from a private party it would have been more expensive than it already was.

Milled is more true to the original AK-47's, stamped is more true to the current AKM's. Not the same but everyone uses AK as a generic term. Like I said above you have to decide what features you want (Milled vs stamped, wood or synthetic furniture, standard,side folder or under folding stock)

These are the ones I have built, the last one is a Saiga conversion!
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/cmace22/AK-104022.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/cmace22/AK-104025.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/cmace22/IMAG0043sss.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b164/cmace22/SaigaBuild005.jpg

C_1
10-19-2011, 5:55 PM
Last post about this for me : )
The 7.62x39 REQUIRES the use of propriety mags for them to feed, or the use of a bullet guide.
The 5.45x39 does not. You are not modifying the gun in anyways.
And again, your making the assumption on what a "sporter" rifle is.

Its debatable. Im full on for converting, I cant stand the craptastic stock trigger.

My last post on this as well ;)

But my "assumption" is loosely based on what Izhmash, and whoever takes care of the firearms importing and laws, thinks a "sporter" rifle is. I mean, we can't import Russian AKs but we can have all of the Saigas we want.

And Im well aware of Saiga and AK mags. But just because the the 5.45 Saiga just so happens to work with AK74 mags, without mods, and a lot of times without a bullet guide, doesn't mean its legal.

It is debatable. So you cannot argue that its not a "gray" area (we usually stay away from them). I will be on the safe side, and caution others; instead of telling people to stick 30rd AK74 mags in their unconverted 5.45 Saigas.


To the OP, sorry for the side tracking, but if you want a traditional looking AK, something like the one you posted, and don't want to convert a Saiga, get a WASR. Make sure its the best of the bunch, and maybe refinish the wood later. But buy lots of ammo, shoot it, and have fun!

captbilly
10-19-2011, 7:40 PM
If you like the AR because you like a nicely machined, highly accurate, close tolerance gun, then you will not like the AK. If you like the AR because it has a military heritage, looks cool, is a semi auto, and ammo is cheap, then you may well like the AK. Come to think of it, when I first went from only shooting competitive target guns, to ARs, I thought the triggers were unbearably creepy and hard, the tolerances loose, and some features to be gimmicky, but you can get ARs that are very nicely put together, and even the bad ones still shoot OK. But the AK is a whole other step towards awful build quality and feel, and accuracy is really poor (even a tweaked on only shoots OK). But the AK does have a certain allure. And everyone should know how to use and strip an AK, there are just so many out there it seems likely that you will eventually end up with one in your hands.