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View Full Version : Have to buy lock when doing PPT for pistol???


mikeinla
10-15-2011, 1:38 PM
I went to Turners Outdoor to do PPT to buy a Glock. The seller brought the Glock in with the original lock that came with it. When we did the transfer it went smooth and fast at a cost of $35.

The next day I went to a DIFFERENT gun store(not a Turners) to do a PPT to buy a different model Glock. He also had the original lock with the gun BUT the FFL said I had to buy a NEW lock???? They said the other lock was property of the "seller". Why would the "seller" need to keep a lock for a gun he does not have???

Did I REALLY have to buy another lock even though the seller brought the original lock in with the gun??

I was going to buy some ear protection at the second store but deceided not to after he made me a an overpriced CHEAP lock.

chead
10-15-2011, 1:42 PM
You do, it's stupid. The law says if you can't provide the make and model of a safe in your home you must purchase a lock at the time of pick up.

Here's a tip: Have the seller write up a bill of sale that says on that date he sold you the lock for $0.01. Stick the paper in the case when you give it up for the ten-day wait.

sundayduffer
10-15-2011, 1:43 PM
Yup..i DROSed an xd40 yesterday. The original seller had a lock on it, but it wasnt allowed. I have to buy a new CA certified lock when i pick it up in 11 days. My plan is to head over to ACE or OSH, buy a CA certified lock, go pick up the pistol. Go back to ACE or OSH and return the lock. I have 10 freaking locks seating in my tool box, no need to buy another one. Anyhow, the state mandates it, some shops follow the rules to the T, which is cool with me. Anyway, that's my plan.

mikeinla
10-15-2011, 1:48 PM
You do, it's stupid. The law says if you can't provide the make and model of a safe in your home you must purchase a lock at the time of pick up.

Here's a tip: Have the seller write up a bill of sale that says on that date he sold you the lock for $0.01. Stick the paper in the case when you give it up for the ten-day wait.


I have a safe but they said that I still had to but a lock.

ArmyMedicMoose
10-15-2011, 1:52 PM
If it was the OEM lock then you don't need to buy a new lock, if was just a random lock in the box then yes you must buy a lock.

Infiniti87
10-15-2011, 1:56 PM
Just like chead said, have the seller write out a bill of sale for the lock. My buddy did that when I bought my XD45 off him.

Sent from the rocket in my pocket, my all powerful DROID BIONIC.

Librarian
10-15-2011, 3:05 PM
See also the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

Shellshocker66
10-15-2011, 3:17 PM
Or just stop by your local LEA and pick up a child safe lock for free. Just pick up a business card, have them time stamp it, and sign it as a receipt for the safe lock. I stop by about once a month to keep them in the car in case I come across a deal (been wondering why my gas mileage has been going down with my collection of locks).

CSACANNONEER
10-15-2011, 3:26 PM
If you BOUGHT the lock from the seller along with the gun, the seller should be able to furnish you a reciept for the lock to use as proof of purchase.

DVSmith
10-15-2011, 3:44 PM
Your state legislature at work! If every time everyone here in CA bought a gun lock they sent it to Senator Kevin De León, maybe he would get the message.

Ubermcoupe
10-15-2011, 4:44 PM
Here's a tip: Have the seller write up a bill of sale that says on that date he sold you the lock for $0.01. Stick the paper in the case when you give it up for the ten-day wait.

Include the type of manufacturer of the lock and "DOJ-Approved". a local shop haggled me about that...whatever, I still got my gun.

Scratch705
10-15-2011, 10:22 PM
I print up a receipt/invoice for my 1 new in packaging gun lock and just alter the date.

take that CA legislature.

CSACANNONEER
10-16-2011, 8:47 AM
I print up a receipt/invoice for my 1 new in packaging gun lock and just alter the date.

take that CA legislature.

What's wrong with selling a lock to yourself?

the_t0ny
10-16-2011, 10:26 AM
I have a safe but they said that I still had to but a lock.

I know for a fact that at turners if you fill out the safe affidivant with your make and model of CA approved safe you don't need to buy a lock. I've done it plenty of times.

bsg
10-16-2011, 11:15 AM
Or just stop by your local LEA and pick up a child safe lock for free. Just pick up a business card, have them time stamp it, and sign it as a receipt for the safe lock. I stop by about once a month to keep them in the car in case I come across a deal (been wondering why my gas mileage has been going down with my collection of locks).


about how many pounds of locks do you have in there? just curious....

rromeo
10-16-2011, 12:16 PM
I know for a fact that at turners if you fill out the safe affidivant with your make and model of CA approved safe you don't need to buy a lock. I've done it plenty of times.

The safe affidavit is just for long guns, as there is a federal requirement for handgun sales. Now, if you buy a safe when you buy your handgun, you shouldn't have to pay $8 for a lock.

CSACANNONEER
10-16-2011, 12:38 PM
The safe affidavit is just for long guns, as there is a federal requirement for handgun sales. Now, if you buy a safe when you buy your handgun, you shouldn't have to pay $8 for a lock.

The safe affidavit works for to fullfill ALL California requirements for long guns and handguns. The Federal requirements are that a lock be present when a handgun is picked up. To fullfill Federal requirements, you do not need to use a California approved lock. Now, try explaining this to your LGS and see how fast you get shut down for trying to tell them how to run their bussiness. Never the less, a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun.

the_t0ny
10-16-2011, 2:01 PM
The safe affidavit works for to fullfill ALL California requirements for long guns and handguns. The Federal requirements are that a lock be present when a handgun is picked up. To fullfill Federal requirements, you do not need to use a California approved lock. Now, try explaining this to your LGS and see how fast you get shut down for trying to tell them how to run their bussiness. Never the less, a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun.

Well my 10 days is up this Thursday and I'll bring in my own lock and fill out my safe affidavit to turners to pick up my new handgun(first handgun) and I'll let you guys know what happens at turners.

CSACANNONEER
10-16-2011, 2:23 PM
Well my 10 days is up this Thursday and I'll bring in my own lock and fill out my safe affidavit to turners to pick up my new handgun(first handgun) and I'll let you guys know what happens at turners.

I'll be both surprised and impressed if they actually understand the two different laws well enough to understand and accept the fact that it's legal.

FeelthySanchez
10-16-2011, 4:49 PM
to avoid Turner's.

Buyer has the legal option to sign the Calif bypass "Safe Affadavit" form, which details the make/model of safe that you own & use.

Turner's won't offer this to ya, however.

Quit supporting the dorky krooks here ......

the_t0ny
10-16-2011, 4:58 PM
to avoid Turner's.

Buyer has the legal option to sign the Calif bypass "Safe Affadavit" form, which details the make/model of safe that you own & use.

Turner's won't offer this to ya, however.

Quit supporting the dorky krooks here ......

I have to disagree with you on that because I have done 3 private party transfers for rifles at turners and each time I filled out a safe affidavit and wasn't required to purchase a lock.

Now it might be different because it's a handgun this time, but I'll let you guys know what happens when I pick it up this Thursday.

FeelthySanchez
10-16-2011, 5:23 PM
I have to disagree with you on that because I have done 3 private party transfers for rifles at turners and each time I filled out a safe affidavit and wasn't required to purchase a lock.
Now it might be different because it's a handgun this time, but I'll let you guys know what happens when I pick it up this Thursday.

Dear fellow,
This particular buy was for a consignment C&R rifle (WW2 Germ K98k Mauser).

Turner's salesman never offered the affadavit option, only demanding that I purchase the POS Chinese-made cable lock.

Won't be back, 'cuz Turner's just SUX.
Period.

FeelthySanchez
10-16-2011, 5:31 PM
The safe affidavit works for to fullfill ALL California requirements for long guns and handguns. The Federal requirements are that a lock be present when a handgun is picked up. To fullfill Federal requirements, you do not need to use a California approved lock. ........ a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun.

CSAC:
MANY Tnx for clarifying this!!

chim-chim7
10-17-2011, 12:51 AM
You better bring a lock with a recipt from the last 30 days when you go pick up your Glock. Otherwise they will charge you for one. Most places charge you for the lock when you pick it up. That gives you 10 days to hit up Wal-Mart and get one for $2.50.

Otherwise we might get another," Turners made me buy a lock and it was $20," thread.

Trust me, $2.50 is much better than trying to argue with the staff over whats legal or not. Most people don't have the time or the patience to deal with it, I just want my gun and goodbye.

Straight from CalGuns................. For long guns, California FFLs may accept the safe affidavit; for handguns, because BATFE has not yet ruled, the safe affidavit is usually NOT acceptable, and buyers may expect to purchase a gun lock with each handgun.

Anecdotal evidence at Calguns suggests that BATFE is in fact specifically refusing to accept the California safe affidavit.

BATFE enforcement of this appears problematical; there seems to be no record keeping requirement to establish the lock presence on delivery in Federal paperwork.

tenpercentfirearms
10-17-2011, 8:22 AM
The safe affidavit works for to fullfill ALL California requirements for long guns and handguns. The Federal requirements are that a lock be present when a handgun is picked up. To fullfill Federal requirements, you do not need to use a California approved lock. Now, try explaining this to your LGS and see how fast you get shut down for trying to tell them how to run their bussiness. Never the less, a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun.

I do believe what you are advocating is illegal. First the CA PC12088.15. (a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearms safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088, or that does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.Simply put, I cannot keep for sale any FSD that is not CA approved. You could argue that the lock is free so I am not offering it for sale, but just because I don't itemize the lock on a receipt, did you give me money and receive a firearm and a lock? Further see (b)(b) No person may distribute as part of an organized firearm safety program, with or without consideration, any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088 or does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.

The Federal law states (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html)(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.Note that the transferee has to be provided with a secure gun storage or safety device. In order for a licensed dealer to provide you with a secure gun storage device, it would have to be on the FSD list as a dealer cannot offer to sale anything that isn't on the list.

Customers cannot bring in their own locks unless they have a receipt for the last 30 days and Federal law implies the lock must be provided by the dealer.

Now, there is a lot of FUD at the start of this thread. There is absolutely zero reason why the CA Approved FSD that came with your Glock from the factory when you bought it new is still not sufficient when buying it used.

A simple question to any dealer who says you have to buy a new lock is "Can you take a look at this new Glock over here. Do I have to buy a new lock if I purchase this? No, then how is this any different?

Can you please state in the Penal Code where that lock there is approved because it came from the seller like your wholesaler and it is not approved when it came from the wholesaler I bought it from, this PPT guy over here? That is right, you can't. So if that lock over there is good, my lock over here is good.

Now if you still wish not to budge on this issue, just realize the minuscule amount of money you are about to make on this lock is nothing compared to what I might drop on other accessories and firearms at this shop in the future. However, if you do not use a little common sense discretion here since I know you write in the make and manufacturer of that new Glock's FSD on the DROS form and it would look absolutely no different on my transaction legally or in an audit, realize I will never spend a dime in this store again.

So the choice is yours. Don't try and make up laws to rip me off and possibly secure a long time customer or piss me off and never see a dime again."

If I didn't provide Project Childsafe locks for all of my transactions free of charge, I conduct a lock trade in program. Bring me any other CA approved FSD and I will provide your firearm with a different CA approved FSD. The law does not limit me from giving out locks. I can give you a new CA approved FSD with zero restrictions. Only if I don't want to give you a CA approved FSD would you need to bring your own lock with a receipt. So if I give you a CA approved FSD, you don't need a lock or a receipt. If you just happen to give me a CA approved FSD for my lock bank, no laws have been violated. Then I provide your CA approved FSD to another customer another day.

Whether I buy the locks from a wholesaler for $3 each and mark them up to $20 or whether you give them to me and I give them away, it is all the same.

CSACANNONEER
10-17-2011, 9:42 PM
Wes, Everything you have stated above supports my statement and I still can't figure out exactly why or where I was advocating illegal activities. Let me recap my last post. Please point out anything that you think is illegal.

1) The safe affidavit is all that is needed to comply with California law for ALL firearms transactions.

2) Federal law does not give a rat's azz about a lock being "California approved". So, as long as the buyer purchased or was provided it within the last 30 days, it would be legal to use a non-Ca approved lock? Right. WAIT, let's assume that said lock was purchased at a garage sale and not from someone keeping them for commercial sales. Then, would it be OK? There's no law against using a USED lock is there? Finally, what if the seller provided the buyer with a non-Ca approved lock? Again, according to your last post, it would be legal, right? Or, am I just a putz and completely missing something? You have proved me wrong before but, this time, I just don't see it.

3) OK, I see it now, I said "a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun." Right? Well, if the seller provided the lock as part of the deal, I'd be correct right?


On to a new question, I've been told that some FFLs are claiming that Projext Childsafe locks are no longer Ca approved. Is there any truth to this or, are they just trying to rip off their clients?

tenpercentfirearms
10-18-2011, 12:38 PM
Wes, Everything you have stated above supports my statement and I still can't figure out exactly why or where I was advocating illegal activities. Let me recap my last post. Please point out anything that you think is illegal.

1) The safe affidavit is all that is needed to comply with California law for ALL firearms transactions.

2) Federal law does not give a rat's azz about a lock being "California approved". So, as long as the buyer purchased or was provided it within the last 30 days, it would be legal to use a non-Ca approved lock? Right. WAIT, let's assume that said lock was purchased at a garage sale and not from someone keeping them for commercial sales. Then, would it be OK? There's no law against using a USED lock is there? Finally, what if the seller provided the buyer with a non-Ca approved lock? Again, according to your last post, it would be legal, right? Or, am I just a putz and completely missing something? You have proved me wrong before but, this time, I just don't see it.

3) OK, I see it now, I said "a safe affidavit and a non California approved lock without a receipt is 100% legal when picking up a handgun." Right? Well, if the seller provided the lock as part of the deal, I'd be correct right?


On to a new question, I've been told that some FFLs are claiming that Projext Childsafe locks are no longer Ca approved. Is there any truth to this or, are they just trying to rip off their clients?

What it boils down to is when an unapproved FSD comes through my shop, am I guilty of offering for sale or giving away unapproved FSDs? I would argue yes I am. Even if you bring the lock in or your seller brings it in, if I take possession of it in order to satisfy my providing you a lock, I believe I have just broken the law.

You can research this further and try to figure out what is or isn't commercial sales, but it is a moot point to me. As far as I am concerned, I will not touch any non-approved FSDs. It simply isn't worth it.

However, you will notice we don't play the lock game at our shop. We simply provide all firearms transactions with a Project Childsafe lock. Done.

http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model

There are many Project Childsafe models still approved for sale.

CSACANNONEER
10-18-2011, 3:35 PM
What it boils down to is when an unapproved FSD comes through my shop, am I guilty of offering for sale or giving away unapproved FSDs? I would argue yes I am. Even if you bring the lock in or your seller brings it in, if I take possession of it in order to satisfy my providing you a lock, I believe I have just broken the law.

You can research this further and try to figure out what is or isn't commercial sales, but it is a moot point to me. As far as I am concerned, I will not touch any non-approved FSDs. It simply isn't worth it.

However, you will notice we don't play the lock game at our shop. We simply provide all firearms transactions with a Project Childsafe lock. Done.

http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model

There are many Project Childsafe models still approved for sale.

I see where you are coming from and I'd have to mull it over for a while before I agreed or disagreed with your interpetation.. Since, for me, this has been an acedemic arguement, I'm not going to take the time and energy to research "comercial sales" and/or consult an attorny about it. I guess it's a moot point for me too.

MrExel17
10-18-2011, 4:17 PM
-1, for buying more locks, I got like 8 of them!

Watters Edge Design
10-18-2011, 9:41 PM
Depends on who you get and where you go.
I haven't gotten one since I have a ccw and give all mine way with sales.
If you stick one in the box prior to sale on ccw your usually covered.

tenpercentfirearms
10-18-2011, 10:25 PM
I see where you are coming from and I'd have to mull it over for a while before I agreed or disagreed with your interpetation.. Since, for me, this has been an acedemic arguement, I'm not going to take the time and energy to research "comercial sales" and/or consult an attorny about it. I guess it's a moot point for me too.

It really should be a moot point for everyone. The shops that are worth their salt would never make things this complicated and the shops that aren't worth their salt are going to force you to buy a lock anyway.

Scratch705
10-18-2011, 10:56 PM
What's wrong with selling a lock to yourself?

nothing, and hence why i do it. there is no expiration date on the effectiveness of a cable lock. plus most people have the OEM lock with the pistol u are buying which is more than good so i don't see a point in buying another just cause everyone(FFL) has a different interpretation of the law.

zonzin
10-19-2011, 8:11 AM
Bought a lock at Big5 on the way to pickup a new handgun. Returned said lock for refund on the way home from picking up new handgun. Where there is a will , there is a way. That's whats so retarded about these laws.



.

CSACANNONEER
10-19-2011, 10:33 AM
It really should be a moot point for everyone. The shops that are worth their salt would never make things this complicated and the shops that aren't worth their salt are going to force you to buy a lock anyway.

In a perfect world, every gun shop owner would be at least half as verse of the laws as you and there would be no requirement to buy a stupid lock in the first place.

Librarian
10-19-2011, 1:21 PM
Bought a lock at Big5 on the way to pickup a new handgun. Returned said lock for refund on the way home from picking up new handgun. Where there is a will , there is a way. That's whats so retarded about these laws.
.

With the laws as they are, this is the answer. It covers the legal requirements for the FFL, and eliminates the 'surprise' factor.

Seller: "You need a gun lock for this."

Buyer: "Right; got one right here - here's the lock, here's the receipt."

the_t0ny
10-21-2011, 2:12 PM
I picked up my NIB GP100 from Turners yesterday and the lock that came with the gun from Ruger was sufficient. Didn't have to fill out a safe affidavit or anything.

So the only time you would need a lock with receipt or or fill out a safe affidavit would. E when you do a PPT on a firearm then.

Librarian
10-21-2011, 2:50 PM
I picked up my NIB GP100 from Turners yesterday and the lock that came with the gun from Ruger was sufficient. Didn't have to fill out a safe affidavit or anything.

So the only time you would need a lock with receipt or or fill out a safe affidavit would. E when you do a PPT on a firearm then.

No, you need a lock with receipt if the gun is not sold with a CA-approved lock. New, PPT, consignment, all the same.

Again, see the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

the_t0ny
10-21-2011, 3:16 PM
Ok thanks for the clarification. Totally slipped my mind the California has to "approve" locks and safes and storage containers.... :facepalm: this state frustrates me

joefrank64k
10-22-2011, 11:28 AM
My FFL allows me to bring in a CA DOJ approved lock, along with an MS Word-generated receipt listing my spouse selling me that lock for $5.00, when I do a PPT or out-of-state transfer.

The FFL keeps the receipt for their records. Been doing it that way for a couple of years now.

Blademan21
10-22-2011, 12:33 PM
Did a cause I was there impulse buy of a Kahr cw9 at the Turners in Sanberdoo. Told the Kahr lock was not Calif. approved. Had to buy a lock from them. Called Kahr and they said Turners was right. So Kahr sells their to Calif. dealers with locks that are not Calif. approved. WTF.

ke6guj
10-22-2011, 2:15 PM
Did a cause I was there impulse buy of a Kahr cw9 at the Turners in Sanberdoo. Told the Kahr lock was not Calif. approved. Had to buy a lock from them. Called Kahr and they said Turners was right. So Kahr sells their to Calif. dealers with locks that are not Calif. approved. WTF.more than one manufacturer includes a lock with the firearm that is not CA approved. Those locks get removed from the box before being sold to the customer. Do you expect Kahr to spec out a CA-legal lock just for CA sales? It would be nice if they could just include a Ca-legal lock in the box for all guns nationwide, but that could add a couple bucks to each gun. Since locks aren't the reason why we buy the gun, they probably think it isn't worth the $ to change lock suppliers just to satisfy CA law, expecially when the dealer can just sell the customer a CA-legal lock at ToS.

JSolie
10-22-2011, 4:22 PM
... That gives you 10 days to hit up Wal-Mart and get one for $2.50.

Unless Wal-Mart doesn't have any $2.50 ones, and instead has $10.00 ones. Then it makes sense to just buy the $7 ones that the gun store has. Wish I had known that my local Wal-Mart only had $10 locks... it would have saved me a trip. :facepalm:

Blademan21
10-22-2011, 10:09 PM
more than one manufacturer includes a lock with the firearm that is not CA approved. Those locks get removed from the box before being sold to the customer. Do you expect Kahr to spec out a CA-legal lock just for CA sales? It would be nice if they could just include a Ca-legal lock in the box for all guns nationwide, but that could add a couple bucks to each gun. Since locks aren't the reason why we buy the gun, they probably think it isn't worth the $ to change lock suppliers just to satisfy CA law, expecially when the dealer can just sell the customer a CA-legal lock at ToS.


Guess you haven't bought a Kahr lately,because if you had you would know that the supplied lock is like 1 inch square if that. No other lock,Calfornia approved or not,would fit into said gun's box. In my call to Kahr I was told by a rep that they know the locks are not approved and that it would be cost prohibitive to change the shape of the box for a Calif. lock to fit. I wasn't really upset I was charged for a lock, I just thought Turners was spreading fud. Next time I will drive to Pro Force to make my impulse buys. Live and learn.

Scratch705
10-22-2011, 11:35 PM
My FFL allows me to bring in a CA DOJ approved lock, along with an MS Word-generated receipt listing my spouse selling me that lock for $5.00, when I do a PPT or out-of-state transfer.

The FFL keeps the receipt for their records. Been doing it that way for a couple of years now.

not all FFL's allow that. be lucky yours does.

NYRangerfan2
11-06-2011, 12:26 AM
Hit up walmart on the way to the store when u do a pickup ....2.50 .... then just return it on the way home, if the 2.50 is worth your time doing it ...

SoCal AJ
11-06-2011, 9:33 AM
Your state legislature at work! If every time everyone here in CA bought a gun lock they sent it to Senator Kevin De León, maybe he would get the message.

No, he'd probably start reselling locks and pass more anti 2A legislation :facepalm:

emc002
11-21-2011, 11:26 AM
Interesting looking at the CA DOJ list of approved FSD.
I don't see CZ, Glock, Kahr, Kimber, FN, S&W, etc. on there.
I know I've bought a Kimber and S&W in the past and never had to buy a separate lock.

BTW, Project ChildSafe is still listed as approved for whoever above said they weren't.

ke6guj
11-21-2011, 11:32 AM
Interesting looking at the CA DOJ list of approved FSD.
I don't see CZ, Glock, Kahr, Kimber, FN, S&W, etc. on there.
because for the most part, none of those companies manufacture FSD's.


I know I've bought a Kimber and S&W in the past and never had to buy a separate lock.

they usually include in the box a 3rd party FSD that is approved.

Ingrim
11-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Classic Turners move.